Re: Junk rig retrofit on 64 Pearson: CE combos
- That's some intriguing stuff (the cambering). I saw something of it
on the Cheap Pages section on junk rigs and the sails of Vincent
Reddish which are much like Colvins in geometry. It would be
interesting the see how your dingy performs off a nicely breezed
weather shore (calm water and optimal wind). Just yesterday I
determined the CLR of the hull and spent ALL DAY designing rigs and
working out CEs and such. Two look really fine but both only offer
about 380 square feet right now (short of the boats original 434).
One is a single rig much like the Jesters but is a classic Van Loan
type sail and, in fact, resembles one of the sails on his very own
boat in his book if you've seen that pic. It works very well on the
boat with a 35 foot mast above deck (boat is 32 LOA), 18% bury, and
a nice lead of sheets astern to the blocks on centerline (60% of
booms length aft of the leech). In profile the boat is almost a
direct scale-up of Jester. This one could be boosted to 426 square
feet easily. The other one has two identical 190 square foot sails
on masts just 26 feet above deck and this one looks great for just
what you mentioned: lots of possiblities for maneuvering and
balance. I did 5 others, one of which is the Hasler 507 square foot
sail which looks huge on the boat and looks like the Jester version
on steroids but I was unhappy with where the mast landed and all
that weight coming down just aft of the forward waterline. Another
is the classic schooner rig (with foresail 50% of the main) and 408
square feet total but not a lot of sheet lead for the stern sail
(only 20% of the booms length aft of the leech). All in all it
was a totally absorbing endeavor and the two identical sails looks
the best even as it may be a bit undercanvassed. It could be beefed
up and filled out a bit to maybe 450 square feet which approximates
the boats original sail area but, as you mentioned, it may have been
a bit over canvassed for a 23 foot waterline anyway. Tough to
figure. There's always a diesel if need be but it seems this double
rig would be immensely utilitarian. Throw in cambering and it may
work VERY well to windward while clawing off a lee shore. Now to
parade the color swatches of Top Gun material by my wife....
HA!!!! And start the mast hunt. Thanks for the input. I hope to
see the dingy you modified and also to put a few scans of my
sailplans up on our website (Tripod) as well. Best regards from
Panama City, Fla.--- In email@example.com, "rhaldridge"
> --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "goadarama" <goadarama@y...> wrote:increase
> It's hard to figure appropriate sail area on the
> > conversion due to these factors so sticking to the 10% to 20%
> > over the original rigs area seems safe: it can always be sailedwith a
> > reef or two tucked in and the spare area for light days. Colvinstates
> > that a single rig with a few reefs tucked in is harder tobalance than
> > a two masted rig with reefs tucked in. Have you had experiencewith
> > handling a severely reefed single master or know of it? What IWOULD
> > NOT want to happen is to have the boat handicapped so as to haveto
> > fire off the diesel if confronted with a gnarly lee shorewonder
> > situation..... to limit it's windward ability to that degree. I
> > if the two masted rig would be better going to windward whilereefed?
> > Any experienced lugheads (or those, like me, who've studied therig
> > intensely) have a opinion?chime
> I keep hoping those who actually know something about this will
> in with an opinion, but until they do, I'm willing to speculate.But
> take anything I say with an ocean of salt, because although I'velong
> been an admirer of the rig, I built my first junk rig just acouple of
> weeks ago. I have an 11' nesting dinghy, which now has a 65 sq.ft.
> junk sail on it. Maybe I'll post a pic to junkrigs2. Anyway, Ihave
> noticed that the little dinghy doesn't go as well to windwardreefed,
> but partly that may be because the pram bow doesn't do that well injust
> chop. In a hefty chop, it's hard to tack when reefed, though I'm
> getting better at it
> I think a huge advantage of the divided rig is probably
> maneuverability. Even in my little boat, I find I can do a lot
> backing the sail, and I can see that a divided rig would be veryeasy
> to push this way and that, when docking or in other closemaneuvering.
> But I wonder if the junk rig is an exception to the general rulethat
> says a single- masted rig is almost always more efficient persquare
> foot of sail area than a divided rig. It probably isn't, but thethe
> several advantages of the divided rig may make up for it.
> Have you done the whole shtick of finding the CLR, and worked out
> sails' center of effort? Practical Junk Rig has a lot of usefulstuff
> on designing a rig, and on the structural changes that may beif
> necessary to convert a boat with a conventional rig. It sounds as
> you've probably got the book, but if not, it's worth getting.technical
> In late years, as I'm sure you know, there have been several
> advances that improve the rig's windward performance-- camberedlower
> panels, hinges, and so forth. I'd look into those, since windward
> ability is a big concern for you. My dinghy sail has cambered
> panels, and I'm not unhappy with the windward performance, but inthe
> next sail (I've ordered a white polytarp) I intend to try deeper
> camber and to carry the camber up into the upper panels, which are
> flat in the current sail. This may help account for the diminished
> windward ability when reefed.
- --- In email@example.com, "goadarama" <goadarama@y...> wrote:
> That's some intriguing stuff (the cambering). I saw something of itIt is intriguing. So far I'm leaning toward cambered panels in a
> on the Cheap Pages section on junk rigs and the sails of Vincent
> Reddish which are much like Colvins in geometry.
standard Hasler/McLeod sail (parallel lower battens) as the most
seamanlike approach, because of the easy reefing geometry. This is
the approach taken by a guy in Stavanger named Arne Kverneland, and by
all accounts it works wonderfully well. Search the group messages for
"Arne" and "camber."
It would be
> interesting the see how your dingy performs off a nicely breezedSo far so good. Out in the bayou we fly along pretty good, just a
> weather shore (calm water and optimal wind).
pointing a little off. In the chop, we have to close reach to get any
I hope to
> see the dingy you modified and also to put a few scans of myHey. we're just down the road from you in FWB. I put up a snapshot on
> sailplans up on our website (Tripod) as well. Best regards from
> Panama City, Fla.
the junkrig2 photo section, taken by my neighbor as we pushed off down
the canal the first time. Number one son is at the helm, number two
son is clinging to the mast; I'm the fat nervous guy in the middle.
- Hi, there are many experienced and knowledgeable people in this
group, (not me). You might want to check out a member of this groups
site at http://winterthun.net/victor/conversion.php Victor has been
very helpfull to many including myself. I have a Mercator Offshore
30 that I wrote to Victor about and he designed a rig, including a
new cabin layout and detailed info and spec's on the whole rig
including cambered panels and weight of sail cloth. I loved the work
he did, (Thank You Victor) good luck with your project,
-- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "goadarama" <goadarama@y...> wrote:
> Anyone have any experience re-rigging Jester type hulls with a
> rig? We recently purchased a rigless 64 Pearson Vanguard whichshares
> Jesters underwater profile and was trendy for that era. We werewith
> contemplating a single sailed rig with bermudian (yawl) mizzen but
> were wondering if anyone has ever put a multi-masted rig on such a
> vessel. The Hasler book recommends a schooner rig
> the foresail 50% the size of the main which seems to be echoed bythe
> Colvin book. Anyone have a opinion on a well balanced rigfor
> such a hull? 32LOA but only 23 LWL and narrow and a bit tender
> already. Thank you and fair winds.
- Have you considered a cat-ketch rig, using two masts with the larger sail
in front? This may be a better sailplan than the schooner for smaller
hulls. I am currently testing a junk rig on a Beachcomber25:
The cat ketch rig, with the large sail in front, allows the after mast to
be set farther back, getting it out of the cabin. Both sails are within
easy reach of the cockpit, allowing the helsman to reach out and backwind
the sail or untangle lines.
Kent Multer |\ /| P.O.Box 701895, Dallas TX 75370
Magic Metal Productions | \/ | (214) 570 8264 voice/fax
KOBUSHI taiko drummers | | kent@...
I love your concept drawing of the cat - ketch. It sets up a boat
for an aft "wheel house" or at least a covered helm station at the
I think it will be hard to set the fore mast so far forward on most
stock boats, maybe by adding a new strong bulkhead. The mast might
be stepped a couple feet further aft and still keep the sail area to
the front, I think the sail would work OK with up to 1/3 of the area
ahead of the mast.
I do suggest you use a smaller mizzen and get more area in the main
sail. This might be done by going to a gaff sail for the mizzen to
keep all the sail aft of the mizzen mast. Battens could be used so
the mizzen would stand in highter winds and still have the
"junk rig" look. With the smaller sail aft the rig almost becomes a
cat-yawl in operation with a larger main to drive the boat.
Do like the Cat - ketch rig! Anyone know why it is not used more?
Do you sail Texoma?
David in Arkansas
- Hi David --
It's true, a hull with a lot of overhang at the bow might not be such a
good candidate for a rig that requires the mast to be far forward. Of
course, with junk rig, it's quite acceptable to step the mast further aft,
and rake it forward to get good balance. A free-standing mast gets its
support from the hull and deck; a bulkhead might not be necessary if the
other structures are strong enough.
I've never sailed a cat-yawl, but I don't like it for several reasons. The
mizzen, being 'way aft, is hard to handle; you can't reach it so easily if
something gets tangled. Also, it's going to require a boomkin, maybe two,
so the rig gets more complex; and the boat gets longer, and I'm already
squeezing a 25-footer into a 24-foot slip!
A bigger main would require a bigger mast, which would be more difficult to
raise and lower. I want to be able to do this myself (or with one helper),
not depend on a nearby boatyard with a crane. The only advantage I see to
a cat-yawl would be more speed, and I'm not looking to win
races. Regarding other types of sail, such as gaff, that's a whole 'nother
debate; let's just say that I like junk sails and plan to stay with them.
My last boat was a Sea Pearl 21, also a cat-ketch. I found the rig
delightfully easy to use. I could get it to self-steer upwind by adjusting
the sheets, and I could heave to by dropping the main and sheeting the
mizzen tight to the centerline. (See
Cat-ketch rigs used to be very common for small working boats, probably
because their simplicity and easy handling were valuable to fishermen, and
to anyone sailing in tight quarters around a busy harbor. I think that the
main reason they've gone out of fashion is because, in America at least,
every average Joe wants to have a boat that looks like last year's
America's Cup winner. So tall sloop rigs with large jibs have become the
rule, even though their only advantage is speed upwind.
I have the boat on Lake Lavon, Northeast of Dallas. It's not as big as
Texoma, but it's much closer to where I live.
A 25-footer is a bit small for a wheel house, but I would love to have some
kind of roof or awning to keep me out of the Texas summer sun!
>I love your concept drawing of the cat - ketch. It sets up a boat
>for an aft "wheel house" or at least a covered helm station at the
>I think it will be hard to set the fore mast so far forward on most
>stock boats, maybe by adding a new strong bulkhead. The mast might
>be stepped a couple feet further aft and still keep the sail area to
>the front, I think the sail would work OK with up to 1/3 of the area
>ahead of the mast.
>I do suggest you use a smaller mizzen and get more area in the main
>sail. This might be done by going to a gaff sail for the mizzen to
>keep all the sail aft of the mizzen mast. Battens could be used so
>the mizzen would stand in highter winds and still have the
>"junk rig" look. With the smaller sail aft the rig almost becomes a
>cat-yawl in operation with a larger main to drive the boat.
>Do like the Cat - ketch rig! Anyone know why it is not used more?
>Do you sail Texoma?
>David in Arkansas