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Re: Junk rig retrofit on 64 Pearson: CE combos

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  • goadarama
    That s some intriguing stuff (the cambering). I saw something of it on the Cheap Pages section on junk rigs and the sails of Vincent Reddish which are much
    Message 1 of 12 , May 1, 2005
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      That's some intriguing stuff (the cambering). I saw something of it
      on the Cheap Pages section on junk rigs and the sails of Vincent
      Reddish which are much like Colvins in geometry. It would be
      interesting the see how your dingy performs off a nicely breezed
      weather shore (calm water and optimal wind). Just yesterday I
      determined the CLR of the hull and spent ALL DAY designing rigs and
      working out CEs and such. Two look really fine but both only offer
      about 380 square feet right now (short of the boats original 434).
      One is a single rig much like the Jesters but is a classic Van Loan
      type sail and, in fact, resembles one of the sails on his very own
      boat in his book if you've seen that pic. It works very well on the
      boat with a 35 foot mast above deck (boat is 32 LOA), 18% bury, and
      a nice lead of sheets astern to the blocks on centerline (60% of
      booms length aft of the leech). In profile the boat is almost a
      direct scale-up of Jester. This one could be boosted to 426 square
      feet easily. The other one has two identical 190 square foot sails
      on masts just 26 feet above deck and this one looks great for just
      what you mentioned: lots of possiblities for maneuvering and
      balance. I did 5 others, one of which is the Hasler 507 square foot
      sail which looks huge on the boat and looks like the Jester version
      on steroids but I was unhappy with where the mast landed and all
      that weight coming down just aft of the forward waterline. Another
      is the classic schooner rig (with foresail 50% of the main) and 408
      square feet total but not a lot of sheet lead for the stern sail
      (only 20% of the booms length aft of the leech). All in all it
      was a totally absorbing endeavor and the two identical sails looks
      the best even as it may be a bit undercanvassed. It could be beefed
      up and filled out a bit to maybe 450 square feet which approximates
      the boats original sail area but, as you mentioned, it may have been
      a bit over canvassed for a 23 foot waterline anyway. Tough to
      figure. There's always a diesel if need be but it seems this double
      rig would be immensely utilitarian. Throw in cambering and it may
      work VERY well to windward while clawing off a lee shore. Now to
      parade the color swatches of Top Gun material by my wife....
      HA!!!! And start the mast hunt. Thanks for the input. I hope to
      see the dingy you modified and also to put a few scans of my
      sailplans up on our website (Tripod) as well. Best regards from
      Panama City, Fla.--- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, "rhaldridge"
      <knobmaker@c...> wrote:
      > --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, "goadarama" <goadarama@y...> wrote:
      >
      > It's hard to figure appropriate sail area on the
      > > conversion due to these factors so sticking to the 10% to 20%
      increase
      > > over the original rigs area seems safe: it can always be sailed
      with a
      > > reef or two tucked in and the spare area for light days. Colvin
      states
      > > that a single rig with a few reefs tucked in is harder to
      balance than
      > > a two masted rig with reefs tucked in. Have you had experience
      with
      > > handling a severely reefed single master or know of it? What I
      WOULD
      > > NOT want to happen is to have the boat handicapped so as to have
      to
      > > fire off the diesel if confronted with a gnarly lee shore
      > > situation..... to limit it's windward ability to that degree. I
      wonder
      > > if the two masted rig would be better going to windward while
      reefed?
      > > Any experienced lugheads (or those, like me, who've studied the
      rig
      > > intensely) have a opinion?
      >
      > I keep hoping those who actually know something about this will
      chime
      > in with an opinion, but until they do, I'm willing to speculate.
      But
      > take anything I say with an ocean of salt, because although I've
      long
      > been an admirer of the rig, I built my first junk rig just a
      couple of
      > weeks ago. I have an 11' nesting dinghy, which now has a 65 sq.
      ft.
      > junk sail on it. Maybe I'll post a pic to junkrigs2. Anyway, I
      have
      > noticed that the little dinghy doesn't go as well to windward
      reefed,
      > but partly that may be because the pram bow doesn't do that well in
      > chop. In a hefty chop, it's hard to tack when reefed, though I'm
      > getting better at it
      >
      > I think a huge advantage of the divided rig is probably
      > maneuverability. Even in my little boat, I find I can do a lot
      just
      > backing the sail, and I can see that a divided rig would be very
      easy
      > to push this way and that, when docking or in other close
      maneuvering.
      > But I wonder if the junk rig is an exception to the general rule
      that
      > says a single- masted rig is almost always more efficient per
      square
      > foot of sail area than a divided rig. It probably isn't, but the
      > several advantages of the divided rig may make up for it.
      >
      > Have you done the whole shtick of finding the CLR, and worked out
      the
      > sails' center of effort? Practical Junk Rig has a lot of useful
      stuff
      > on designing a rig, and on the structural changes that may be
      > necessary to convert a boat with a conventional rig. It sounds as
      if
      > you've probably got the book, but if not, it's worth getting.
      >
      > In late years, as I'm sure you know, there have been several
      technical
      > advances that improve the rig's windward performance-- cambered
      > panels, hinges, and so forth. I'd look into those, since windward
      > ability is a big concern for you. My dinghy sail has cambered
      lower
      > panels, and I'm not unhappy with the windward performance, but in
      the
      > next sail (I've ordered a white polytarp) I intend to try deeper
      > camber and to carry the camber up into the upper panels, which are
      > flat in the current sail. This may help account for the diminished
      > windward ability when reefed.
      >
      > Ray
    • rhaldridge
      ... It is intriguing. So far I m leaning toward cambered panels in a standard Hasler/McLeod sail (parallel lower battens) as the most seamanlike approach,
      Message 2 of 12 , May 1, 2005
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        --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, "goadarama" <goadarama@y...> wrote:
        > That's some intriguing stuff (the cambering). I saw something of it
        > on the Cheap Pages section on junk rigs and the sails of Vincent
        > Reddish which are much like Colvins in geometry.

        It is intriguing. So far I'm leaning toward cambered panels in a
        standard Hasler/McLeod sail (parallel lower battens) as the most
        seamanlike approach, because of the easy reefing geometry. This is
        the approach taken by a guy in Stavanger named Arne Kverneland, and by
        all accounts it works wonderfully well. Search the group messages for
        "Arne" and "camber."

        It would be
        > interesting the see how your dingy performs off a nicely breezed
        > weather shore (calm water and optimal wind).

        So far so good. Out in the bayou we fly along pretty good, just a
        pointing a little off. In the chop, we have to close reach to get any
        boatspeed.


        I hope to
        > see the dingy you modified and also to put a few scans of my
        > sailplans up on our website (Tripod) as well. Best regards from
        > Panama City, Fla.

        Hey. we're just down the road from you in FWB. I put up a snapshot on
        the junkrig2 photo section, taken by my neighbor as we pushed off down
        the canal the first time. Number one son is at the helm, number two
        son is clinging to the mast; I'm the fat nervous guy in the middle.

        Ray
      • savell8
        Hi, there are many experienced and knowledgeable people in this group, (not me). You might want to check out a member of this groups site at
        Message 3 of 12 , May 1, 2005
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          Hi, there are many experienced and knowledgeable people in this
          group, (not me). You might want to check out a member of this groups
          site at http://winterthun.net/victor/conversion.php Victor has been
          very helpfull to many including myself. I have a Mercator Offshore
          30 that I wrote to Victor about and he designed a rig, including a
          new cabin layout and detailed info and spec's on the whole rig
          including cambered panels and weight of sail cloth. I loved the work
          he did, (Thank You Victor) good luck with your project,
          Ron -
          -- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, "goadarama" <goadarama@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Anyone have any experience re-rigging Jester type hulls with a
          junk
          > rig? We recently purchased a rigless 64 Pearson Vanguard which
          shares
          > Jesters underwater profile and was trendy for that era. We were
          > contemplating a single sailed rig with bermudian (yawl) mizzen but
          > were wondering if anyone has ever put a multi-masted rig on such a
          > vessel. The Hasler book recommends a schooner rig
          with
          > the foresail 50% the size of the main which seems to be echoed by
          the
          > Colvin book. Anyone have a opinion on a well balanced rig
          for
          > such a hull? 32LOA but only 23 LWL and narrow and a bit tender
          > already. Thank you and fair winds.
        • Kent
          Have you considered a cat-ketch rig, using two masts with the larger sail in front? This may be a better sailplan than the schooner for smaller hulls. I am
          Message 4 of 12 , May 1, 2005
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            Have you considered a cat-ketch rig, using two masts with the larger sail
            in front? This may be a better sailplan than the schooner for smaller
            hulls. I am currently testing a junk rig on a Beachcomber25:

            http://frontpage.dallas.net/~kent/bc25sailplan.gif

            The cat ketch rig, with the large sail in front, allows the after mast to
            be set farther back, getting it out of the cabin. Both sails are within
            easy reach of the cockpit, allowing the helsman to reach out and backwind
            the sail or untangle lines.


            Kent Multer |\ /| P.O.Box 701895, Dallas TX 75370
            Magic Metal Productions | \/ | (214) 570 8264 voice/fax
            KOBUSHI taiko drummers | | kent@...
            http://frontpage.dallas.net/~kent
          • David Davis
            -Kent, I love your concept drawing of the cat - ketch. It sets up a boat for an aft wheel house or at least a covered helm station at the tiller. I think it
            Message 5 of 12 , May 5, 2005
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              -Kent,

              I love your concept drawing of the cat - ketch. It sets up a boat
              for an aft "wheel house" or at least a covered helm station at the
              tiller.

              I think it will be hard to set the fore mast so far forward on most
              stock boats, maybe by adding a new strong bulkhead. The mast might
              be stepped a couple feet further aft and still keep the sail area to
              the front, I think the sail would work OK with up to 1/3 of the area
              ahead of the mast.

              I do suggest you use a smaller mizzen and get more area in the main
              sail. This might be done by going to a gaff sail for the mizzen to
              keep all the sail aft of the mizzen mast. Battens could be used so
              the mizzen would stand in highter winds and still have the
              "junk rig" look. With the smaller sail aft the rig almost becomes a
              cat-yawl in operation with a larger main to drive the boat.

              Do like the Cat - ketch rig! Anyone know why it is not used more?

              Do you sail Texoma?

              David in Arkansas
            • Kent
              Hi David -- It s true, a hull with a lot of overhang at the bow might not be such a good candidate for a rig that requires the mast to be far forward. Of
              Message 6 of 12 , May 6, 2005
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                Hi David --

                It's true, a hull with a lot of overhang at the bow might not be such a
                good candidate for a rig that requires the mast to be far forward. Of
                course, with junk rig, it's quite acceptable to step the mast further aft,
                and rake it forward to get good balance. A free-standing mast gets its
                support from the hull and deck; a bulkhead might not be necessary if the
                other structures are strong enough.

                I've never sailed a cat-yawl, but I don't like it for several reasons. The
                mizzen, being 'way aft, is hard to handle; you can't reach it so easily if
                something gets tangled. Also, it's going to require a boomkin, maybe two,
                so the rig gets more complex; and the boat gets longer, and I'm already
                squeezing a 25-footer into a 24-foot slip!

                A bigger main would require a bigger mast, which would be more difficult to
                raise and lower. I want to be able to do this myself (or with one helper),
                not depend on a nearby boatyard with a crane. The only advantage I see to
                a cat-yawl would be more speed, and I'm not looking to win
                races. Regarding other types of sail, such as gaff, that's a whole 'nother
                debate; let's just say that I like junk sails and plan to stay with them.

                My last boat was a Sea Pearl 21, also a cat-ketch. I found the rig
                delightfully easy to use. I could get it to self-steer upwind by adjusting
                the sheets, and I could heave to by dropping the main and sheeting the
                mizzen tight to the centerline. (See
                http://frontpage.dallas.net/~kent/sailing/shady.htm.)

                Cat-ketch rigs used to be very common for small working boats, probably
                because their simplicity and easy handling were valuable to fishermen, and
                to anyone sailing in tight quarters around a busy harbor. I think that the
                main reason they've gone out of fashion is because, in America at least,
                every average Joe wants to have a boat that looks like last year's
                America's Cup winner. So tall sloop rigs with large jibs have become the
                rule, even though their only advantage is speed upwind.

                I have the boat on Lake Lavon, Northeast of Dallas. It's not as big as
                Texoma, but it's much closer to where I live.

                A 25-footer is a bit small for a wheel house, but I would love to have some
                kind of roof or awning to keep me out of the Texas summer sun!

                -- Kent



                >-Kent,
                >
                >I love your concept drawing of the cat - ketch. It sets up a boat
                >for an aft "wheel house" or at least a covered helm station at the
                >tiller.
                >
                >I think it will be hard to set the fore mast so far forward on most
                >stock boats, maybe by adding a new strong bulkhead. The mast might
                >be stepped a couple feet further aft and still keep the sail area to
                >the front, I think the sail would work OK with up to 1/3 of the area
                >ahead of the mast.
                >
                >I do suggest you use a smaller mizzen and get more area in the main
                >sail. This might be done by going to a gaff sail for the mizzen to
                >keep all the sail aft of the mizzen mast. Battens could be used so
                >the mizzen would stand in highter winds and still have the
                >"junk rig" look. With the smaller sail aft the rig almost becomes a
                >cat-yawl in operation with a larger main to drive the boat.
                >
                >Do like the Cat - ketch rig! Anyone know why it is not used more?
                >
                >Do you sail Texoma?
                >
                >David in Arkansas
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