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Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs

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  • Steve Rankin
    John and all I don t quite understand what the thread of this comment below is in response to, but I thought we were discussing the Gazelle rig as designed by
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 17, 2001
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      John and all

      I don't quite understand what the thread of this comment below is in
      response to, but I thought we were discussing the Gazelle rig as designed
      by Colvin. I think "rigs" and "hulls" are sufficiently different issues as
      to merit their own discussion.
      Re: shrouds
      If the design was for a free standing mast, the shrouds would obviously not
      be required to stop whipping as they would not be either called for nor
      used. A mast designed to be supported and braced by standing rigging, would
      do more than whip without the shrouds.
      Re: cat preference
      I would think your opinion is not held by the majority based on a couple of
      personal observations.
      1. Most sailing vessels in the parts of the world I've been are not hauling
      frieght.
      2. Most vessels not hauling frieght are mono hulls.
      3. Most new vessels under construction are mono hulls
      Re Sale of Colvin's plans.
      1. I don't know how many plans Colvin has sold, nor would I care to try and
      figure that out, but the relative popularity, my guess, would be influenced
      by the better (defined by faster, cheaper, stronger) construction techniques
      that exist now, and a broader understanding of the strength and weaknesses
      of the junk rig, resulting from thirty more years of experience and
      obsevation in the field on western style hulls.

      Steve Rankin
      "Bu'Kwiis"



      Message -----
      From: "John Gerlach" <gerlach1@...>
      To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 7:13 AM
      Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs


      > My last comment was too short. What I meant to say was that it takes money
      > and effort to drive a heavy displacement hull either in the form of
      > additional sail area or a larger engine. If you need to haul a cargo then
      I
      > think a junk hull and rig is the way to go. However, if you will not be
      > hauling cargo then a catamaran, perhaps with a Bolger "Double Eagle" rig,
      > would be a better choice unless it is hard to find a wide berth. I think
      of
      > Colvin's Gazelle and Bolger's sharpies as a single hulled catamarans. The
      > cat will get you there in more comfort in half the time and provides a lot
      > more living area. I think one of the reasons Colvin has not sold more
      plans
      > is the rapid rise in popularity of multihulls as cruising boats.
      >
      > Gazelle was one of Colvin's first designs using the junk rig. The shrouds
      > were specified to stop the mast from whipping and with some additional
      > engineering it could be eliminated. The light weather bowsprit/jib
      > combination is a cheap way to add sail area to a light displacement hull
      and
      > helps drive the boat choppy light air conditions - the worst sailing
      > conditions for a full junk rig. Many times we made it back to harbor under
      > sail because of the jib.
      >
      > John
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Steve Rankin [mailto:srankin@...]
      > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 11:10 PM
      > To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
      >
      >
      > She will not point as well as any sloop rig, nor is she as handy as a full
      > on Junk rig. The standing rigging is a major hinderance to downwind
      sailing
      > and the jib is a nuisance. However, she is better than a bermudan rig
      > downwind, less handy than a freestanding junk rig.
      >
      > Steve Rankin
      > "Bu'Kwiis"
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Bob Mergy" <rmergy@...>
      > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 7:00 PM
      > Subject: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
      >
      >
      > > I have read every book I can find, which are not many, on Junk Riggs.
      > > And now I am building my own boat which will be Junk Rigged. My
      > > boat is a 42 foot Gazelle designed by Mr. Tom Colvin from Alba, Fla.
      > > What is unique about Mr. Colvin's designs is that he has married the
      > > East with the West. My 42 foot (on deck) Gazelle has a Jib up front
      > > of 149 Sq. Ft. The Gazelle has an 8 foot bowsprit to put the jib way
      > > out front. My foresail is 250 Sq. Ft. and my main is 450 Sq. Ft. I
      > > also have a fisherman with 140 Sq. Ft. and for trade wind sailing A
      > > spinaker that is 16 by 25. This rigg will point as well as any
      > > sloop rigg, but has all the benefits of a Junk Rigg.
      > >
      > > Anyone interested in Junk Riggs should read some of Mr. Colvins books
      > > on ship building and sail making. Mr. Colvin spent many years
      > > sailing as well as a number of years in the orient. He is a very
      > > knowledgeable seaman/designer and has been a Junk Rigg advocate for
      > > at least three decades, probably more.
      > >
      > > I spent about seven years studing the many boats and riggs designs
      > > before choosing the Gazelle. For my needs the Gazelle fit the bill
      > > 98% (lacks the beam I wanted). As a retired manufacturing engineer I
      > > wanted a boat that I could build that was large enough to handle blue
      > > water well, have a shallow draft for waterways, sturdy enough for all
      > > conditions, and with a rigg that can be singlehanded if need be.
      > > After spending a day and a half with Mr. Colvin in Florida I
      > > purchased a bare hull and a set of plans and have been working on her
      > > for three yeas now. Launching her should be around the middle of
      > > March 2001.
      > >
      > > You can see my boat at www.hobo.itgo.com if you are interested.
      > >
      > > Bob
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
      >
      >
      >
    • John Gerlach
      Steve, You can discuss rigs and hulls as separate entities but what would be the point? The design of a boat is an iterative process to arrive at the best
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 17, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        Steve,

        You can discuss rigs and hulls as separate entities but what would be the
        point? The design of a boat is an iterative process to arrive at the best
        design when given a limited set of options. The rig used on Gazelle was
        designed for a particular light displacement hull by a designer at a
        particular point in the development of his career. As such it reflects his
        best shot at particular solutions to a number of compromises at that time.
        Gazelle is a long, narrow, and shallow boat for her displacement and I'm not
        sure she could carry the weight of a third mast in her bow. I think the
        jib/bowsprit, while not as easy to sheet or reef as a junk sail, is a good
        solution to a couple of different design problems.

        My comment about the shrouds is just my recollection of something Colvin
        wrote. As I recall he stated that the masts are primarily designed to stand
        on their own and that the shrouds were mostly there to prevent whipping in
        rough seas. As I recall the masts were build of thick wall pipe. It is
        possible that Colvin used a combination of shrouds and light masts to reduce
        weight aloft and that free standing masts would be too heavy on this
        particular design but that is an engineering question that someone would
        have to put to him.

        Boats are very personal objects. I happen to love the look of traditional
        junks and from my limited experience on one boat I know that the rig is easy
        to handle and fun to sail. Your statements in favor of a pure junk rig over
        a junk/jib combination highlighted a number of potential alternative rigs
        and some of the compromises inherent in the choice of a rig: "She will not
        point as well as any sloop rig, nor is she as handy as a full on Junk rig.
        The standing rigging is a major hindrance to downwind sailing and the jib is
        a nuisance. However, she is better than a bermudan rig downwind, less handy
        than a freestanding junk rig." I took your comments as a comparison of
        Gazelle with a heavy displacement junk rigged boat and also as a comparison
        of Gazelle against all types of cruising boats. For that reason I think the
        inclusion of multihulls in the discussion is perfectly relevant. All of your
        points are valid but you neglected the hull part of the equation - eg.
        displacement. A heavy displacement traditional junk is on the far end of a
        displacement spectrum that runs to multihulls on the other end with Gazelle
        somewhere in the middle. If you consider both the hull and the rig together
        and if the boat is simply a vehicle that allows you to voyage/cruise, then a
        well designed low-tech catamaran is the most logical choice based on factors
        such as cost, handling, comfort, safety, and speed. I know that this can be
        a pretty volatile issue so if you disagree lets just agree to disagree and
        not debate the thing to death.

        John

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Steve Rankin [mailto:srankin@...]
        Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 11:44 AM
        To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs


        John and all

        I don't quite understand what the thread of this comment below is in
        response to, but I thought we were discussing the Gazelle rig as designed
        by Colvin. I think "rigs" and "hulls" are sufficiently different issues as
        to merit their own discussion.
        Re: shrouds
        If the design was for a free standing mast, the shrouds would obviously not
        be required to stop whipping as they would not be either called for nor
        used. A mast designed to be supported and braced by standing rigging, would
        do more than whip without the shrouds.
        Re: cat preference
        I would think your opinion is not held by the majority based on a couple of
        personal observations.
        1. Most sailing vessels in the parts of the world I've been are not hauling
        frieght.
        2. Most vessels not hauling frieght are mono hulls.
        3. Most new vessels under construction are mono hulls
        Re Sale of Colvin's plans.
        1. I don't know how many plans Colvin has sold, nor would I care to try and
        figure that out, but the relative popularity, my guess, would be influenced
        by the better (defined by faster, cheaper, stronger) construction techniques
        that exist now, and a broader understanding of the strength and weaknesses
        of the junk rig, resulting from thirty more years of experience and
        obsevation in the field on western style hulls.

        Steve Rankin
        "Bu'Kwiis"



        Message -----
        From: "John Gerlach" <gerlach1@...>
        To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 7:13 AM
        Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs


        > My last comment was too short. What I meant to say was that it takes money
        > and effort to drive a heavy displacement hull either in the form of
        > additional sail area or a larger engine. If you need to haul a cargo then
        I
        > think a junk hull and rig is the way to go. However, if you will not be
        > hauling cargo then a catamaran, perhaps with a Bolger "Double Eagle" rig,
        > would be a better choice unless it is hard to find a wide berth. I think
        of
        > Colvin's Gazelle and Bolger's sharpies as a single hulled catamarans. The
        > cat will get you there in more comfort in half the time and provides a lot
        > more living area. I think one of the reasons Colvin has not sold more
        plans
        > is the rapid rise in popularity of multihulls as cruising boats.
        >
        > Gazelle was one of Colvin's first designs using the junk rig. The shrouds
        > were specified to stop the mast from whipping and with some additional
        > engineering it could be eliminated. The light weather bowsprit/jib
        > combination is a cheap way to add sail area to a light displacement hull
        and
        > helps drive the boat choppy light air conditions - the worst sailing
        > conditions for a full junk rig. Many times we made it back to harbor under
        > sail because of the jib.
        >
        > John
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Steve Rankin [mailto:srankin@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 11:10 PM
        > To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
        >
        >
        > She will not point as well as any sloop rig, nor is she as handy as a full
        > on Junk rig. The standing rigging is a major hinderance to downwind
        sailing
        > and the jib is a nuisance. However, she is better than a bermudan rig
        > downwind, less handy than a freestanding junk rig.
        >
        > Steve Rankin
        > "Bu'Kwiis"
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Bob Mergy" <rmergy@...>
        > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 7:00 PM
        > Subject: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
        >
        >
        > > I have read every book I can find, which are not many, on Junk Riggs.
        > > And now I am building my own boat which will be Junk Rigged. My
        > > boat is a 42 foot Gazelle designed by Mr. Tom Colvin from Alba, Fla.
        > > What is unique about Mr. Colvin's designs is that he has married the
        > > East with the West. My 42 foot (on deck) Gazelle has a Jib up front
        > > of 149 Sq. Ft. The Gazelle has an 8 foot bowsprit to put the jib way
        > > out front. My foresail is 250 Sq. Ft. and my main is 450 Sq. Ft. I
        > > also have a fisherman with 140 Sq. Ft. and for trade wind sailing A
        > > spinaker that is 16 by 25. This rigg will point as well as any
        > > sloop rigg, but has all the benefits of a Junk Rigg.
        > >
        > > Anyone interested in Junk Riggs should read some of Mr. Colvins books
        > > on ship building and sail making. Mr. Colvin spent many years
        > > sailing as well as a number of years in the orient. He is a very
        > > knowledgeable seaman/designer and has been a Junk Rigg advocate for
        > > at least three decades, probably more.
        > >
        > > I spent about seven years studing the many boats and riggs designs
        > > before choosing the Gazelle. For my needs the Gazelle fit the bill
        > > 98% (lacks the beam I wanted). As a retired manufacturing engineer I
        > > wanted a boat that I could build that was large enough to handle blue
        > > water well, have a shallow draft for waterways, sturdy enough for all
        > > conditions, and with a rigg that can be singlehanded if need be.
        > > After spending a day and a half with Mr. Colvin in Florida I
        > > purchased a bare hull and a set of plans and have been working on her
        > > for three yeas now. Launching her should be around the middle of
        > > March 2001.
        > >
        > > You can see my boat at www.hobo.itgo.com if you are interested.
        > >
        > > Bob
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
        >
        >
        >



        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
      • Steve Rankin
        John I have no idea why as you stated below you assume my comments are comparing a Gazelle with a heavy displacement hull. My comments are on the Gazelle
        Message 3 of 26 , Feb 18, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          John
          I have no idea why as you stated below you assume my comments are comparing
          a Gazelle with a heavy displacement hull. My comments are on the Gazelle
          period. How you jumped to the conclusion that a third mast was somehow the
          alternative escapes me. The Gazelle in MHO would be a better boat without a
          jib, standing rigging, and with a rig that is balanced by increasing the
          sail area forward. That means moving the foremast forward, and increasing
          the height and sail area.
          Other than the shortcomings of the rig, she is a very decent boat.

          Steve Rankin
          "Bu'Kwiis"
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "John Gerlach" <gerlach1@...>
          To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 4:45 PM
          Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs


          > Steve,
          >
          > You can discuss rigs and hulls as separate entities but what would be the
          > point? The design of a boat is an iterative process to arrive at the best
          > design when given a limited set of options. The rig used on Gazelle was
          > designed for a particular light displacement hull by a designer at a
          > particular point in the development of his career. As such it reflects his
          > best shot at particular solutions to a number of compromises at that time.
          > Gazelle is a long, narrow, and shallow boat for her displacement and I'm
          not
          > sure she could carry the weight of a third mast in her bow. I think the
          > jib/bowsprit, while not as easy to sheet or reef as a junk sail, is a good
          > solution to a couple of different design problems.
          >
          > My comment about the shrouds is just my recollection of something Colvin
          > wrote. As I recall he stated that the masts are primarily designed to
          stand
          > on their own and that the shrouds were mostly there to prevent whipping in
          > rough seas. As I recall the masts were build of thick wall pipe. It is
          > possible that Colvin used a combination of shrouds and light masts to
          reduce
          > weight aloft and that free standing masts would be too heavy on this
          > particular design but that is an engineering question that someone would
          > have to put to him.
          >
          > Boats are very personal objects. I happen to love the look of traditional
          > junks and from my limited experience on one boat I know that the rig is
          easy
          > to handle and fun to sail. Your statements in favor of a pure junk rig
          over
          > a junk/jib combination highlighted a number of potential alternative rigs
          > and some of the compromises inherent in the choice of a rig: "She will not
          > point as well as any sloop rig, nor is she as handy as a full on Junk rig.
          > The standing rigging is a major hindrance to downwind sailing and the jib
          is
          > a nuisance. However, she is better than a bermudan rig downwind, less
          handy
          > than a freestanding junk rig." I took your comments as a comparison of
          > Gazelle with a heavy displacement junk rigged boat and also as a
          comparison
          > of Gazelle against all types of cruising boats. For that reason I think
          the
          > inclusion of multihulls in the discussion is perfectly relevant. All of
          your
          > points are valid but you neglected the hull part of the equation - eg.
          > displacement. A heavy displacement traditional junk is on the far end of a
          > displacement spectrum that runs to multihulls on the other end with
          Gazelle
          > somewhere in the middle. If you consider both the hull and the rig
          together
          > and if the boat is simply a vehicle that allows you to voyage/cruise, then
          a
          > well designed low-tech catamaran is the most logical choice based on
          factors
          > such as cost, handling, comfort, safety, and speed. I know that this can
          be
          > a pretty volatile issue so if you disagree lets just agree to disagree and
          > not debate the thing to death.
          >
          > John
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Steve Rankin [mailto:srankin@...]
          > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 11:44 AM
          > To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
          >
          >
          > John and all
          >
          > I don't quite understand what the thread of this comment below is in
          > response to, but I thought we were discussing the Gazelle rig as designed
          > by Colvin. I think "rigs" and "hulls" are sufficiently different issues as
          > to merit their own discussion.
          > Re: shrouds
          > If the design was for a free standing mast, the shrouds would obviously
          not
          > be required to stop whipping as they would not be either called for nor
          > used. A mast designed to be supported and braced by standing rigging,
          would
          > do more than whip without the shrouds.
          > Re: cat preference
          > I would think your opinion is not held by the majority based on a couple
          of
          > personal observations.
          > 1. Most sailing vessels in the parts of the world I've been are not
          hauling
          > frieght.
          > 2. Most vessels not hauling frieght are mono hulls.
          > 3. Most new vessels under construction are mono hulls
          > Re Sale of Colvin's plans.
          > 1. I don't know how many plans Colvin has sold, nor would I care to try
          and
          > figure that out, but the relative popularity, my guess, would be
          influenced
          > by the better (defined by faster, cheaper, stronger) construction
          techniques
          > that exist now, and a broader understanding of the strength and weaknesses
          > of the junk rig, resulting from thirty more years of experience and
          > obsevation in the field on western style hulls.
          >
          > Steve Rankin
          > "Bu'Kwiis"
          >
          >
          >
          > Message -----
          > From: "John Gerlach" <gerlach1@...>
          > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 7:13 AM
          > Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
          >
          >
          > > My last comment was too short. What I meant to say was that it takes
          money
          > > and effort to drive a heavy displacement hull either in the form of
          > > additional sail area or a larger engine. If you need to haul a cargo
          then
          > I
          > > think a junk hull and rig is the way to go. However, if you will not be
          > > hauling cargo then a catamaran, perhaps with a Bolger "Double Eagle"
          rig,
          > > would be a better choice unless it is hard to find a wide berth. I think
          > of
          > > Colvin's Gazelle and Bolger's sharpies as a single hulled catamarans.
          The
          > > cat will get you there in more comfort in half the time and provides a
          lot
          > > more living area. I think one of the reasons Colvin has not sold more
          > plans
          > > is the rapid rise in popularity of multihulls as cruising boats.
          > >
          > > Gazelle was one of Colvin's first designs using the junk rig. The
          shrouds
          > > were specified to stop the mast from whipping and with some additional
          > > engineering it could be eliminated. The light weather bowsprit/jib
          > > combination is a cheap way to add sail area to a light displacement hull
          > and
          > > helps drive the boat choppy light air conditions - the worst sailing
          > > conditions for a full junk rig. Many times we made it back to harbor
          under
          > > sail because of the jib.
          > >
          > > John
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: Steve Rankin [mailto:srankin@...]
          > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 11:10 PM
          > > To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
          > >
          > >
          > > She will not point as well as any sloop rig, nor is she as handy as a
          full
          > > on Junk rig. The standing rigging is a major hinderance to downwind
          > sailing
          > > and the jib is a nuisance. However, she is better than a bermudan rig
          > > downwind, less handy than a freestanding junk rig.
          > >
          > > Steve Rankin
          > > "Bu'Kwiis"
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: "Bob Mergy" <rmergy@...>
          > > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 7:00 PM
          > > Subject: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
          > >
          > >
          > > > I have read every book I can find, which are not many, on Junk Riggs.
          > > > And now I am building my own boat which will be Junk Rigged. My
          > > > boat is a 42 foot Gazelle designed by Mr. Tom Colvin from Alba, Fla.
          > > > What is unique about Mr. Colvin's designs is that he has married the
          > > > East with the West. My 42 foot (on deck) Gazelle has a Jib up front
          > > > of 149 Sq. Ft. The Gazelle has an 8 foot bowsprit to put the jib way
          > > > out front. My foresail is 250 Sq. Ft. and my main is 450 Sq. Ft. I
          > > > also have a fisherman with 140 Sq. Ft. and for trade wind sailing A
          > > > spinaker that is 16 by 25. This rigg will point as well as any
          > > > sloop rigg, but has all the benefits of a Junk Rigg.
          > > >
          > > > Anyone interested in Junk Riggs should read some of Mr. Colvins books
          > > > on ship building and sail making. Mr. Colvin spent many years
          > > > sailing as well as a number of years in the orient. He is a very
          > > > knowledgeable seaman/designer and has been a Junk Rigg advocate for
          > > > at least three decades, probably more.
          > > >
          > > > I spent about seven years studing the many boats and riggs designs
          > > > before choosing the Gazelle. For my needs the Gazelle fit the bill
          > > > 98% (lacks the beam I wanted). As a retired manufacturing engineer I
          > > > wanted a boat that I could build that was large enough to handle blue
          > > > water well, have a shallow draft for waterways, sturdy enough for all
          > > > conditions, and with a rigg that can be singlehanded if need be.
          > > > After spending a day and a half with Mr. Colvin in Florida I
          > > > purchased a bare hull and a set of plans and have been working on her
          > > > for three yeas now. Launching her should be around the middle of
          > > > March 2001.
          > > >
          > > > You can see my boat at www.hobo.itgo.com if you are interested.
          > > >
          > > > Bob
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
          >
          >
          >
        • John Gerlach
          Ok, Now, if I am following you, you are saying that Gazelle would be better with a rig like Ron Glas on the cover of Practical Junk Rig. Fair enough. If you
          Message 4 of 26 , Feb 18, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            Ok,

            Now, if I am following you, you are saying that Gazelle would be better with
            a rig like Ron Glas on the cover of Practical Junk Rig. Fair enough. If you
            look at a drawing of Gazelle you will see that her foremast is pretty far
            forward already. Think of the jib as a ghoster for light air conditions.
            These are exactly the conditions where a junk sail is at its worst. Hasler
            and McLeod offer a range of light weather ghoster options for increasing the
            speed of the junk rig under light air conditions for "sailing fanatics".
            Count me in as a fanatic - I don't like sitting still waiting for the wind
            to increase when a light air sail will keep the boat moving. Hasler and
            McLoud note that it is difficult to get correct sheeting angles for the
            ghoster unless a bow sprit is used. Gazelle has one of those. So, I think
            the jib is worth the extra effort for keeping the boat moving in light
            winds. Since I have not sailed aboard a boat with a full junk rig I'd
            appreciate any comments by you or anyone else about how a full junk rig
            performs in a variety of light air conditions.

            John


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Steve Rankin [mailto:srankin@...]
            Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 12:04 PM
            To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs


            John
            I have no idea why as you stated below you assume my comments are comparing
            a Gazelle with a heavy displacement hull. My comments are on the Gazelle
            period. How you jumped to the conclusion that a third mast was somehow the
            alternative escapes me. The Gazelle in MHO would be a better boat without a
            jib, standing rigging, and with a rig that is balanced by increasing the
            sail area forward. That means moving the foremast forward, and increasing
            the height and sail area.
            Other than the shortcomings of the rig, she is a very decent boat.

            Steve Rankin
            "Bu'Kwiis"
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "John Gerlach" <gerlach1@...>
            To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 4:45 PM
            Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs


            > Steve,
            >
            > You can discuss rigs and hulls as separate entities but what would be the
            > point? The design of a boat is an iterative process to arrive at the best
            > design when given a limited set of options. The rig used on Gazelle was
            > designed for a particular light displacement hull by a designer at a
            > particular point in the development of his career. As such it reflects his
            > best shot at particular solutions to a number of compromises at that time.
            > Gazelle is a long, narrow, and shallow boat for her displacement and I'm
            not
            > sure she could carry the weight of a third mast in her bow. I think the
            > jib/bowsprit, while not as easy to sheet or reef as a junk sail, is a good
            > solution to a couple of different design problems.
            >
            > My comment about the shrouds is just my recollection of something Colvin
            > wrote. As I recall he stated that the masts are primarily designed to
            stand
            > on their own and that the shrouds were mostly there to prevent whipping in
            > rough seas. As I recall the masts were build of thick wall pipe. It is
            > possible that Colvin used a combination of shrouds and light masts to
            reduce
            > weight aloft and that free standing masts would be too heavy on this
            > particular design but that is an engineering question that someone would
            > have to put to him.
            >
            > Boats are very personal objects. I happen to love the look of traditional
            > junks and from my limited experience on one boat I know that the rig is
            easy
            > to handle and fun to sail. Your statements in favor of a pure junk rig
            over
            > a junk/jib combination highlighted a number of potential alternative rigs
            > and some of the compromises inherent in the choice of a rig: "She will not
            > point as well as any sloop rig, nor is she as handy as a full on Junk rig.
            > The standing rigging is a major hindrance to downwind sailing and the jib
            is
            > a nuisance. However, she is better than a bermudan rig downwind, less
            handy
            > than a freestanding junk rig." I took your comments as a comparison of
            > Gazelle with a heavy displacement junk rigged boat and also as a
            comparison
            > of Gazelle against all types of cruising boats. For that reason I think
            the
            > inclusion of multihulls in the discussion is perfectly relevant. All of
            your
            > points are valid but you neglected the hull part of the equation - eg.
            > displacement. A heavy displacement traditional junk is on the far end of a
            > displacement spectrum that runs to multihulls on the other end with
            Gazelle
            > somewhere in the middle. If you consider both the hull and the rig
            together
            > and if the boat is simply a vehicle that allows you to voyage/cruise, then
            a
            > well designed low-tech catamaran is the most logical choice based on
            factors
            > such as cost, handling, comfort, safety, and speed. I know that this can
            be
            > a pretty volatile issue so if you disagree lets just agree to disagree and
            > not debate the thing to death.
            >
            > John
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Steve Rankin [mailto:srankin@...]
            > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 11:44 AM
            > To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
            >
            >
            > John and all
            >
            > I don't quite understand what the thread of this comment below is in
            > response to, but I thought we were discussing the Gazelle rig as designed
            > by Colvin. I think "rigs" and "hulls" are sufficiently different issues as
            > to merit their own discussion.
            > Re: shrouds
            > If the design was for a free standing mast, the shrouds would obviously
            not
            > be required to stop whipping as they would not be either called for nor
            > used. A mast designed to be supported and braced by standing rigging,
            would
            > do more than whip without the shrouds.
            > Re: cat preference
            > I would think your opinion is not held by the majority based on a couple
            of
            > personal observations.
            > 1. Most sailing vessels in the parts of the world I've been are not
            hauling
            > frieght.
            > 2. Most vessels not hauling frieght are mono hulls.
            > 3. Most new vessels under construction are mono hulls
            > Re Sale of Colvin's plans.
            > 1. I don't know how many plans Colvin has sold, nor would I care to try
            and
            > figure that out, but the relative popularity, my guess, would be
            influenced
            > by the better (defined by faster, cheaper, stronger) construction
            techniques
            > that exist now, and a broader understanding of the strength and weaknesses
            > of the junk rig, resulting from thirty more years of experience and
            > obsevation in the field on western style hulls.
            >
            > Steve Rankin
            > "Bu'Kwiis"
            >
            >
            >
            > Message -----
            > From: "John Gerlach" <gerlach1@...>
            > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 7:13 AM
            > Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
            >
            >
            > > My last comment was too short. What I meant to say was that it takes
            money
            > > and effort to drive a heavy displacement hull either in the form of
            > > additional sail area or a larger engine. If you need to haul a cargo
            then
            > I
            > > think a junk hull and rig is the way to go. However, if you will not be
            > > hauling cargo then a catamaran, perhaps with a Bolger "Double Eagle"
            rig,
            > > would be a better choice unless it is hard to find a wide berth. I think
            > of
            > > Colvin's Gazelle and Bolger's sharpies as a single hulled catamarans.
            The
            > > cat will get you there in more comfort in half the time and provides a
            lot
            > > more living area. I think one of the reasons Colvin has not sold more
            > plans
            > > is the rapid rise in popularity of multihulls as cruising boats.
            > >
            > > Gazelle was one of Colvin's first designs using the junk rig. The
            shrouds
            > > were specified to stop the mast from whipping and with some additional
            > > engineering it could be eliminated. The light weather bowsprit/jib
            > > combination is a cheap way to add sail area to a light displacement hull
            > and
            > > helps drive the boat choppy light air conditions - the worst sailing
            > > conditions for a full junk rig. Many times we made it back to harbor
            under
            > > sail because of the jib.
            > >
            > > John
            > >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: Steve Rankin [mailto:srankin@...]
            > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 11:10 PM
            > > To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
            > >
            > >
            > > She will not point as well as any sloop rig, nor is she as handy as a
            full
            > > on Junk rig. The standing rigging is a major hinderance to downwind
            > sailing
            > > and the jib is a nuisance. However, she is better than a bermudan rig
            > > downwind, less handy than a freestanding junk rig.
            > >
            > > Steve Rankin
            > > "Bu'Kwiis"
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: "Bob Mergy" <rmergy@...>
            > > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
            > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 7:00 PM
            > > Subject: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
            > >
            > >
            > > > I have read every book I can find, which are not many, on Junk Riggs.
            > > > And now I am building my own boat which will be Junk Rigged. My
            > > > boat is a 42 foot Gazelle designed by Mr. Tom Colvin from Alba, Fla.
            > > > What is unique about Mr. Colvin's designs is that he has married the
            > > > East with the West. My 42 foot (on deck) Gazelle has a Jib up front
            > > > of 149 Sq. Ft. The Gazelle has an 8 foot bowsprit to put the jib way
            > > > out front. My foresail is 250 Sq. Ft. and my main is 450 Sq. Ft. I
            > > > also have a fisherman with 140 Sq. Ft. and for trade wind sailing A
            > > > spinaker that is 16 by 25. This rigg will point as well as any
            > > > sloop rigg, but has all the benefits of a Junk Rigg.
            > > >
            > > > Anyone interested in Junk Riggs should read some of Mr. Colvins books
            > > > on ship building and sail making. Mr. Colvin spent many years
            > > > sailing as well as a number of years in the orient. He is a very
            > > > knowledgeable seaman/designer and has been a Junk Rigg advocate for
            > > > at least three decades, probably more.
            > > >
            > > > I spent about seven years studing the many boats and riggs designs
            > > > before choosing the Gazelle. For my needs the Gazelle fit the bill
            > > > 98% (lacks the beam I wanted). As a retired manufacturing engineer I
            > > > wanted a boat that I could build that was large enough to handle blue
            > > > water well, have a shallow draft for waterways, sturdy enough for all
            > > > conditions, and with a rigg that can be singlehanded if need be.
            > > > After spending a day and a half with Mr. Colvin in Florida I
            > > > purchased a bare hull and a set of plans and have been working on her
            > > > for three yeas now. Launching her should be around the middle of
            > > > March 2001.
            > > >
            > > > You can see my boat at www.hobo.itgo.com if you are interested.
            > > >
            > > > Bob
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            >
            >
            >



            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
          • Steve Rankin
            John The jib on a Gazelle is 150 sq ft, hardly a ghoster. Unless there is some wind it won t even fill as it is heavily constructed. The jib is not there for
            Message 5 of 26 , Feb 18, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              John
              The jib on a Gazelle is 150 sq ft, hardly a ghoster. Unless there is some
              wind it won't even fill as it is heavily constructed. The jib is not there
              for light airs. It's there to balance the rig because without it there isnt
              enough sail area forward to balance the main.
              Sailing in light airs requires sail area, nomatter what the rig.

              Steve Rankin
              "bu'Kwiis"

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "John Gerlach" <gerlach1@...>
              To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 8:03 PM
              Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs


              > Ok,
              >
              > Now, if I am following you, you are saying that Gazelle would be better
              with
              > a rig like Ron Glas on the cover of Practical Junk Rig. Fair enough. If
              you
              > look at a drawing of Gazelle you will see that her foremast is pretty far
              > forward already. Think of the jib as a ghoster for light air conditions.
              > These are exactly the conditions where a junk sail is at its worst. Hasler
              > and McLeod offer a range of light weather ghoster options for increasing
              the
              > speed of the junk rig under light air conditions for "sailing fanatics".
              > Count me in as a fanatic - I don't like sitting still waiting for the wind
              > to increase when a light air sail will keep the boat moving. Hasler and
              > McLoud note that it is difficult to get correct sheeting angles for the
              > ghoster unless a bow sprit is used. Gazelle has one of those. So, I think
              > the jib is worth the extra effort for keeping the boat moving in light
              > winds. Since I have not sailed aboard a boat with a full junk rig I'd
              > appreciate any comments by you or anyone else about how a full junk rig
              > performs in a variety of light air conditions.
              >
              > John
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Steve Rankin [mailto:srankin@...]
              > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 12:04 PM
              > To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
              >
              >
              > John
              > I have no idea why as you stated below you assume my comments are
              comparing
              > a Gazelle with a heavy displacement hull. My comments are on the Gazelle
              > period. How you jumped to the conclusion that a third mast was somehow the
              > alternative escapes me. The Gazelle in MHO would be a better boat without
              a
              > jib, standing rigging, and with a rig that is balanced by increasing the
              > sail area forward. That means moving the foremast forward, and increasing
              > the height and sail area.
              > Other than the shortcomings of the rig, she is a very decent boat.
              >
              > Steve Rankin
              > "Bu'Kwiis"
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "John Gerlach" <gerlach1@...>
              > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 4:45 PM
              > Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
              >
              >
              > > Steve,
              > >
              > > You can discuss rigs and hulls as separate entities but what would be
              the
              > > point? The design of a boat is an iterative process to arrive at the
              best
              > > design when given a limited set of options. The rig used on Gazelle was
              > > designed for a particular light displacement hull by a designer at a
              > > particular point in the development of his career. As such it reflects
              his
              > > best shot at particular solutions to a number of compromises at that
              time.
              > > Gazelle is a long, narrow, and shallow boat for her displacement and I'm
              > not
              > > sure she could carry the weight of a third mast in her bow. I think the
              > > jib/bowsprit, while not as easy to sheet or reef as a junk sail, is a
              good
              > > solution to a couple of different design problems.
              > >
              > > My comment about the shrouds is just my recollection of something Colvin
              > > wrote. As I recall he stated that the masts are primarily designed to
              > stand
              > > on their own and that the shrouds were mostly there to prevent whipping
              in
              > > rough seas. As I recall the masts were build of thick wall pipe. It is
              > > possible that Colvin used a combination of shrouds and light masts to
              > reduce
              > > weight aloft and that free standing masts would be too heavy on this
              > > particular design but that is an engineering question that someone would
              > > have to put to him.
              > >
              > > Boats are very personal objects. I happen to love the look of
              traditional
              > > junks and from my limited experience on one boat I know that the rig is
              > easy
              > > to handle and fun to sail. Your statements in favor of a pure junk rig
              > over
              > > a junk/jib combination highlighted a number of potential alternative
              rigs
              > > and some of the compromises inherent in the choice of a rig: "She will
              not
              > > point as well as any sloop rig, nor is she as handy as a full on Junk
              rig.
              > > The standing rigging is a major hindrance to downwind sailing and the
              jib
              > is
              > > a nuisance. However, she is better than a bermudan rig downwind, less
              > handy
              > > than a freestanding junk rig." I took your comments as a comparison of
              > > Gazelle with a heavy displacement junk rigged boat and also as a
              > comparison
              > > of Gazelle against all types of cruising boats. For that reason I think
              > the
              > > inclusion of multihulls in the discussion is perfectly relevant. All of
              > your
              > > points are valid but you neglected the hull part of the equation - eg.
              > > displacement. A heavy displacement traditional junk is on the far end of
              a
              > > displacement spectrum that runs to multihulls on the other end with
              > Gazelle
              > > somewhere in the middle. If you consider both the hull and the rig
              > together
              > > and if the boat is simply a vehicle that allows you to voyage/cruise,
              then
              > a
              > > well designed low-tech catamaran is the most logical choice based on
              > factors
              > > such as cost, handling, comfort, safety, and speed. I know that this can
              > be
              > > a pretty volatile issue so if you disagree lets just agree to disagree
              and
              > > not debate the thing to death.
              > >
              > > John
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: Steve Rankin [mailto:srankin@...]
              > > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 11:44 AM
              > > To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
              > >
              > >
              > > John and all
              > >
              > > I don't quite understand what the thread of this comment below is in
              > > response to, but I thought we were discussing the Gazelle rig as
              designed
              > > by Colvin. I think "rigs" and "hulls" are sufficiently different issues
              as
              > > to merit their own discussion.
              > > Re: shrouds
              > > If the design was for a free standing mast, the shrouds would obviously
              > not
              > > be required to stop whipping as they would not be either called for nor
              > > used. A mast designed to be supported and braced by standing rigging,
              > would
              > > do more than whip without the shrouds.
              > > Re: cat preference
              > > I would think your opinion is not held by the majority based on a couple
              > of
              > > personal observations.
              > > 1. Most sailing vessels in the parts of the world I've been are not
              > hauling
              > > frieght.
              > > 2. Most vessels not hauling frieght are mono hulls.
              > > 3. Most new vessels under construction are mono hulls
              > > Re Sale of Colvin's plans.
              > > 1. I don't know how many plans Colvin has sold, nor would I care to try
              > and
              > > figure that out, but the relative popularity, my guess, would be
              > influenced
              > > by the better (defined by faster, cheaper, stronger) construction
              > techniques
              > > that exist now, and a broader understanding of the strength and
              weaknesses
              > > of the junk rig, resulting from thirty more years of experience and
              > > obsevation in the field on western style hulls.
              > >
              > > Steve Rankin
              > > "Bu'Kwiis"
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Message -----
              > > From: "John Gerlach" <gerlach1@...>
              > > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 7:13 AM
              > > Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
              > >
              > >
              > > > My last comment was too short. What I meant to say was that it takes
              > money
              > > > and effort to drive a heavy displacement hull either in the form of
              > > > additional sail area or a larger engine. If you need to haul a cargo
              > then
              > > I
              > > > think a junk hull and rig is the way to go. However, if you will not
              be
              > > > hauling cargo then a catamaran, perhaps with a Bolger "Double Eagle"
              > rig,
              > > > would be a better choice unless it is hard to find a wide berth. I
              think
              > > of
              > > > Colvin's Gazelle and Bolger's sharpies as a single hulled catamarans.
              > The
              > > > cat will get you there in more comfort in half the time and provides a
              > lot
              > > > more living area. I think one of the reasons Colvin has not sold more
              > > plans
              > > > is the rapid rise in popularity of multihulls as cruising boats.
              > > >
              > > > Gazelle was one of Colvin's first designs using the junk rig. The
              > shrouds
              > > > were specified to stop the mast from whipping and with some additional
              > > > engineering it could be eliminated. The light weather bowsprit/jib
              > > > combination is a cheap way to add sail area to a light displacement
              hull
              > > and
              > > > helps drive the boat choppy light air conditions - the worst sailing
              > > > conditions for a full junk rig. Many times we made it back to harbor
              > under
              > > > sail because of the jib.
              > > >
              > > > John
              > > >
              > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > From: Steve Rankin [mailto:srankin@...]
              > > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 11:10 PM
              > > > To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > She will not point as well as any sloop rig, nor is she as handy as a
              > full
              > > > on Junk rig. The standing rigging is a major hinderance to downwind
              > > sailing
              > > > and the jib is a nuisance. However, she is better than a bermudan rig
              > > > downwind, less handy than a freestanding junk rig.
              > > >
              > > > Steve Rankin
              > > > "Bu'Kwiis"
              > > >
              > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > From: "Bob Mergy" <rmergy@...>
              > > > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
              > > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 7:00 PM
              > > > Subject: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > > I have read every book I can find, which are not many, on Junk
              Riggs.
              > > > > And now I am building my own boat which will be Junk Rigged. My
              > > > > boat is a 42 foot Gazelle designed by Mr. Tom Colvin from Alba, Fla.
              > > > > What is unique about Mr. Colvin's designs is that he has married the
              > > > > East with the West. My 42 foot (on deck) Gazelle has a Jib up front
              > > > > of 149 Sq. Ft. The Gazelle has an 8 foot bowsprit to put the jib
              way
              > > > > out front. My foresail is 250 Sq. Ft. and my main is 450 Sq. Ft. I
              > > > > also have a fisherman with 140 Sq. Ft. and for trade wind sailing A
              > > > > spinaker that is 16 by 25. This rigg will point as well as any
              > > > > sloop rigg, but has all the benefits of a Junk Rigg.
              > > > >
              > > > > Anyone interested in Junk Riggs should read some of Mr. Colvins
              books
              > > > > on ship building and sail making. Mr. Colvin spent many years
              > > > > sailing as well as a number of years in the orient. He is a very
              > > > > knowledgeable seaman/designer and has been a Junk Rigg advocate for
              > > > > at least three decades, probably more.
              > > > >
              > > > > I spent about seven years studing the many boats and riggs designs
              > > > > before choosing the Gazelle. For my needs the Gazelle fit the bill
              > > > > 98% (lacks the beam I wanted). As a retired manufacturing engineer I
              > > > > wanted a boat that I could build that was large enough to handle
              blue
              > > > > water well, have a shallow draft for waterways, sturdy enough for
              all
              > > > > conditions, and with a rigg that can be singlehanded if need be.
              > > > > After spending a day and a half with Mr. Colvin in Florida I
              > > > > purchased a bare hull and a set of plans and have been working on
              her
              > > > > for three yeas now. Launching her should be around the middle of
              > > > > March 2001.
              > > > >
              > > > > You can see my boat at www.hobo.itgo.com if you are interested.
              > > > >
              > > > > Bob
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              >
              >
              >
            • stewartday@hotmail.com
              Dear John, I am writing in response to your request for comments from people who have sailed full junk rigged boats in very light winds - My boat has a flat
              Message 6 of 26 , Feb 19, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear John,
                I am writing in response to your request for comments from people who
                have sailed "full" junk rigged boats in very light winds -

                My boat has a flat cut junk rig sail and does not point very high to
                windward, except in strong winds. In very light winds my boat sails
                very well compared to conventionally rigged boats in all other
                respects. However, when there is chop and the wind is very light my
                boat does not seem to have as much "drive" to windward, to push
                through waves or chop, as similarly sized conventionally rigged boats
                do. Then the wind seems to be more readily "knocked out" of my sail
                than conventional sails.

                The apparent lack of drive to windward, especially in light winds, of
                the junk rig has been mentioned by others over the years. But the
                comments I have read about this apparent weakness were all made
                before the trend towards cambered junk sails. I wonder if camber in
                the junk sail results in not only the ability to point higher to
                windward, but also the ability to drive through waves and chop more
                effectively? Could it be that sufficient sail area in the junk sail/s
                for light conditions, along with camber, may be a simpler solution
                than the use of ghosters, jibs, bowsprits, etc? Would those members
                who have sailed both flat and cambered junk rigs in light winds like
                to comment?

                Regards, Paul Stewart-Day

                --- In junkrig@y..., John Gerlach <gerlach1@p...> wrote:
                > Ok,
                >
                > Now, if I am following you, you are saying that Gazelle would be
                better with
                > a rig like Ron Glas on the cover of Practical Junk Rig. Fair
                enough. If you
                > look at a drawing of Gazelle you will see that her foremast is
                pretty far
                > forward already. Think of the jib as a ghoster for light air
                conditions.
                > These are exactly the conditions where a junk sail is at its worst.
                Hasler
                > and McLeod offer a range of light weather ghoster options for
                increasing the
                > speed of the junk rig under light air conditions for "sailing
                fanatics".
                > Count me in as a fanatic - I don't like sitting still waiting for
                the wind
                > to increase when a light air sail will keep the boat moving. Hasler
                and
                > McLoud note that it is difficult to get correct sheeting angles for
                the
                > ghoster unless a bow sprit is used. Gazelle has one of those. So, I
                think
                > the jib is worth the extra effort for keeping the boat moving in
                light
                > winds. Since I have not sailed aboard a boat with a full junk rig
                I'd
                > appreciate any comments by you or anyone else about how a full junk
                rig
                > performs in a variety of light air conditions.
                >
                > John
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              • Victor Winterthun
                Hi John. You say that junkrig is at its worst in light air conditions. This is only true when you have to flat sail. I beat bigger boats in light air, unless
                Message 7 of 26 , Feb 19, 2001
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi John.
                  You say that junkrig is "at its worst" in light air conditions. This is only true when you have to flat sail. I beat bigger boats in light air, unless it is upwind.And unless they set spinnakers, or other big lightweather sails. Forget flat sails. Get fullness in them, and you will see another kind of sailing..

                  Victor.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "John Gerlach" <gerlach1@...>
                  To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 5:03 AM
                  Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs


                  > Ok,
                  >
                  > Now, if I am following you, you are saying that Gazelle would be better with
                  > a rig like Ron Glas on the cover of Practical Junk Rig. Fair enough. If you
                  > look at a drawing of Gazelle you will see that her foremast is pretty far
                  > forward already. Think of the jib as a ghoster for light air conditions.
                  > These are exactly the conditions where a junk sail is at its worst. Hasler
                  > and McLeod offer a range of light weather ghoster options for increasing the
                  > speed of the junk rig under light air conditions for "sailing fanatics".
                  > Count me in as a fanatic - I don't like sitting still waiting for the wind
                  > to increase when a light air sail will keep the boat moving. Hasler and
                  > McLoud note that it is difficult to get correct sheeting angles for the
                  > ghoster unless a bow sprit is used. Gazelle has one of those. So, I think
                  > the jib is worth the extra effort for keeping the boat moving in light
                  > winds. Since I have not sailed aboard a boat with a full junk rig I'd
                  > appreciate any comments by you or anyone else about how a full junk rig
                  > performs in a variety of light air conditions.
                  >
                  > John
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Steve Rankin [mailto:srankin@...]
                  > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 12:04 PM
                  > To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                  >
                  >
                  > John
                  > I have no idea why as you stated below you assume my comments are comparing
                  > a Gazelle with a heavy displacement hull. My comments are on the Gazelle
                  > period. How you jumped to the conclusion that a third mast was somehow the
                  > alternative escapes me. The Gazelle in MHO would be a better boat without a
                  > jib, standing rigging, and with a rig that is balanced by increasing the
                  > sail area forward. That means moving the foremast forward, and increasing
                  > the height and sail area.
                  > Other than the shortcomings of the rig, she is a very decent boat.
                  >
                  > Steve Rankin
                  > "Bu'Kwiis"
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "John Gerlach" <gerlach1@...>
                  > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 4:45 PM
                  > Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                  >
                  >
                  > > Steve,
                  > >
                  > > You can discuss rigs and hulls as separate entities but what would be the
                  > > point? The design of a boat is an iterative process to arrive at the best
                  > > design when given a limited set of options. The rig used on Gazelle was
                  > > designed for a particular light displacement hull by a designer at a
                  > > particular point in the development of his career. As such it reflects his
                  > > best shot at particular solutions to a number of compromises at that time.
                  > > Gazelle is a long, narrow, and shallow boat for her displacement and I'm
                  > not
                  > > sure she could carry the weight of a third mast in her bow. I think the
                  > > jib/bowsprit, while not as easy to sheet or reef as a junk sail, is a good
                  > > solution to a couple of different design problems.
                  > >
                  > > My comment about the shrouds is just my recollection of something Colvin
                  > > wrote. As I recall he stated that the masts are primarily designed to
                  > stand
                  > > on their own and that the shrouds were mostly there to prevent whipping in
                  > > rough seas. As I recall the masts were build of thick wall pipe. It is
                  > > possible that Colvin used a combination of shrouds and light masts to
                  > reduce
                  > > weight aloft and that free standing masts would be too heavy on this
                  > > particular design but that is an engineering question that someone would
                  > > have to put to him.
                  > >
                  > > Boats are very personal objects. I happen to love the look of traditional
                  > > junks and from my limited experience on one boat I know that the rig is
                  > easy
                  > > to handle and fun to sail. Your statements in favor of a pure junk rig
                  > over
                  > > a junk/jib combination highlighted a number of potential alternative rigs
                  > > and some of the compromises inherent in the choice of a rig: "She will not
                  > > point as well as any sloop rig, nor is she as handy as a full on Junk rig.
                  > > The standing rigging is a major hindrance to downwind sailing and the jib
                  > is
                  > > a nuisance. However, she is better than a bermudan rig downwind, less
                  > handy
                  > > than a freestanding junk rig." I took your comments as a comparison of
                  > > Gazelle with a heavy displacement junk rigged boat and also as a
                  > comparison
                  > > of Gazelle against all types of cruising boats. For that reason I think
                  > the
                  > > inclusion of multihulls in the discussion is perfectly relevant. All of
                  > your
                  > > points are valid but you neglected the hull part of the equation - eg.
                  > > displacement. A heavy displacement traditional junk is on the far end of a
                  > > displacement spectrum that runs to multihulls on the other end with
                  > Gazelle
                  > > somewhere in the middle. If you consider both the hull and the rig
                  > together
                  > > and if the boat is simply a vehicle that allows you to voyage/cruise, then
                  > a
                  > > well designed low-tech catamaran is the most logical choice based on
                  > factors
                  > > such as cost, handling, comfort, safety, and speed. I know that this can
                  > be
                  > > a pretty volatile issue so if you disagree lets just agree to disagree and
                  > > not debate the thing to death.
                  > >
                  > > John
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: Steve Rankin [mailto:srankin@...]
                  > > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 11:44 AM
                  > > To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > John and all
                  > >
                  > > I don't quite understand what the thread of this comment below is in
                  > > response to, but I thought we were discussing the Gazelle rig as designed
                  > > by Colvin. I think "rigs" and "hulls" are sufficiently different issues as
                  > > to merit their own discussion.
                  > > Re: shrouds
                  > > If the design was for a free standing mast, the shrouds would obviously
                  > not
                  > > be required to stop whipping as they would not be either called for nor
                  > > used. A mast designed to be supported and braced by standing rigging,
                  > would
                  > > do more than whip without the shrouds.
                  > > Re: cat preference
                  > > I would think your opinion is not held by the majority based on a couple
                  > of
                  > > personal observations.
                  > > 1. Most sailing vessels in the parts of the world I've been are not
                  > hauling
                  > > frieght.
                  > > 2. Most vessels not hauling frieght are mono hulls.
                  > > 3. Most new vessels under construction are mono hulls
                  > > Re Sale of Colvin's plans.
                  > > 1. I don't know how many plans Colvin has sold, nor would I care to try
                  > and
                  > > figure that out, but the relative popularity, my guess, would be
                  > influenced
                  > > by the better (defined by faster, cheaper, stronger) construction
                  > techniques
                  > > that exist now, and a broader understanding of the strength and weaknesses
                  > > of the junk rig, resulting from thirty more years of experience and
                  > > obsevation in the field on western style hulls.
                  > >
                  > > Steve Rankin
                  > > "Bu'Kwiis"
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Message -----
                  > > From: "John Gerlach" <gerlach1@...>
                  > > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 7:13 AM
                  > > Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > My last comment was too short. What I meant to say was that it takes
                  > money
                  > > > and effort to drive a heavy displacement hull either in the form of
                  > > > additional sail area or a larger engine. If you need to haul a cargo
                  > then
                  > > I
                  > > > think a junk hull and rig is the way to go. However, if you will not be
                  > > > hauling cargo then a catamaran, perhaps with a Bolger "Double Eagle"
                  > rig,
                  > > > would be a better choice unless it is hard to find a wide berth. I think
                  > > of
                  > > > Colvin's Gazelle and Bolger's sharpies as a single hulled catamarans.
                  > The
                  > > > cat will get you there in more comfort in half the time and provides a
                  > lot
                  > > > more living area. I think one of the reasons Colvin has not sold more
                  > > plans
                  > > > is the rapid rise in popularity of multihulls as cruising boats.
                  > > >
                  > > > Gazelle was one of Colvin's first designs using the junk rig. The
                  > shrouds
                  > > > were specified to stop the mast from whipping and with some additional
                  > > > engineering it could be eliminated. The light weather bowsprit/jib
                  > > > combination is a cheap way to add sail area to a light displacement hull
                  > > and
                  > > > helps drive the boat choppy light air conditions - the worst sailing
                  > > > conditions for a full junk rig. Many times we made it back to harbor
                  > under
                  > > > sail because of the jib.
                  > > >
                  > > > John
                  > > >
                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > From: Steve Rankin [mailto:srankin@...]
                  > > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 11:10 PM
                  > > > To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > She will not point as well as any sloop rig, nor is she as handy as a
                  > full
                  > > > on Junk rig. The standing rigging is a major hinderance to downwind
                  > > sailing
                  > > > and the jib is a nuisance. However, she is better than a bermudan rig
                  > > > downwind, less handy than a freestanding junk rig.
                  > > >
                  > > > Steve Rankin
                  > > > "Bu'Kwiis"
                  > > >
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: "Bob Mergy" <rmergy@...>
                  > > > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 7:00 PM
                  > > > Subject: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > > I have read every book I can find, which are not many, on Junk Riggs.
                  > > > > And now I am building my own boat which will be Junk Rigged. My
                  > > > > boat is a 42 foot Gazelle designed by Mr. Tom Colvin from Alba, Fla.
                  > > > > What is unique about Mr. Colvin's designs is that he has married the
                  > > > > East with the West. My 42 foot (on deck) Gazelle has a Jib up front
                  > > > > of 149 Sq. Ft. The Gazelle has an 8 foot bowsprit to put the jib way
                  > > > > out front. My foresail is 250 Sq. Ft. and my main is 450 Sq. Ft. I
                  > > > > also have a fisherman with 140 Sq. Ft. and for trade wind sailing A
                  > > > > spinaker that is 16 by 25. This rigg will point as well as any
                  > > > > sloop rigg, but has all the benefits of a Junk Rigg.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Anyone interested in Junk Riggs should read some of Mr. Colvins books
                  > > > > on ship building and sail making. Mr. Colvin spent many years
                  > > > > sailing as well as a number of years in the orient. He is a very
                  > > > > knowledgeable seaman/designer and has been a Junk Rigg advocate for
                  > > > > at least three decades, probably more.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I spent about seven years studing the many boats and riggs designs
                  > > > > before choosing the Gazelle. For my needs the Gazelle fit the bill
                  > > > > 98% (lacks the beam I wanted). As a retired manufacturing engineer I
                  > > > > wanted a boat that I could build that was large enough to handle blue
                  > > > > water well, have a shallow draft for waterways, sturdy enough for all
                  > > > > conditions, and with a rigg that can be singlehanded if need be.
                  > > > > After spending a day and a half with Mr. Colvin in Florida I
                  > > > > purchased a bare hull and a set of plans and have been working on her
                  > > > > for three yeas now. Launching her should be around the middle of
                  > > > > March 2001.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > You can see my boat at www.hobo.itgo.com if you are interested.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Bob
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                • John Gerlach
                  My experience sailing with the jib was that it did fill in very ligh winds and was the only sail driving the boat under those conditions. What is your
                  Message 8 of 26 , Feb 19, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    My experience sailing with the jib was that it did fill in very ligh winds
                    and was the only sail driving the boat under those conditions. What is your
                    experience with a full junk rig under very light conditions?

                    John

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Steve Rankin [mailto:srankin@...]
                    Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 11:25 PM
                    To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs


                    John
                    The jib on a Gazelle is 150 sq ft, hardly a ghoster. Unless there is some
                    wind it won't even fill as it is heavily constructed. The jib is not there
                    for light airs. It's there to balance the rig because without it there isnt
                    enough sail area forward to balance the main.
                    Sailing in light airs requires sail area, nomatter what the rig.

                    Steve Rankin
                    "bu'Kwiis"

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "John Gerlach" <gerlach1@...>
                    To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 8:03 PM
                    Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs


                    > Ok,
                    >
                    > Now, if I am following you, you are saying that Gazelle would be better
                    with
                    > a rig like Ron Glas on the cover of Practical Junk Rig. Fair enough. If
                    you
                    > look at a drawing of Gazelle you will see that her foremast is pretty far
                    > forward already. Think of the jib as a ghoster for light air conditions.
                    > These are exactly the conditions where a junk sail is at its worst. Hasler
                    > and McLeod offer a range of light weather ghoster options for increasing
                    the
                    > speed of the junk rig under light air conditions for "sailing fanatics".
                    > Count me in as a fanatic - I don't like sitting still waiting for the wind
                    > to increase when a light air sail will keep the boat moving. Hasler and
                    > McLoud note that it is difficult to get correct sheeting angles for the
                    > ghoster unless a bow sprit is used. Gazelle has one of those. So, I think
                    > the jib is worth the extra effort for keeping the boat moving in light
                    > winds. Since I have not sailed aboard a boat with a full junk rig I'd
                    > appreciate any comments by you or anyone else about how a full junk rig
                    > performs in a variety of light air conditions.
                    >
                    > John
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Steve Rankin [mailto:srankin@...]
                    > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 12:04 PM
                    > To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                    >
                    >
                    > John
                    > I have no idea why as you stated below you assume my comments are
                    comparing
                    > a Gazelle with a heavy displacement hull. My comments are on the Gazelle
                    > period. How you jumped to the conclusion that a third mast was somehow the
                    > alternative escapes me. The Gazelle in MHO would be a better boat without
                    a
                    > jib, standing rigging, and with a rig that is balanced by increasing the
                    > sail area forward. That means moving the foremast forward, and increasing
                    > the height and sail area.
                    > Other than the shortcomings of the rig, she is a very decent boat.
                    >
                    > Steve Rankin
                    > "Bu'Kwiis"
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "John Gerlach" <gerlach1@...>
                    > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 4:45 PM
                    > Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                    >
                    >
                    > > Steve,
                    > >
                    > > You can discuss rigs and hulls as separate entities but what would be
                    the
                    > > point? The design of a boat is an iterative process to arrive at the
                    best
                    > > design when given a limited set of options. The rig used on Gazelle was
                    > > designed for a particular light displacement hull by a designer at a
                    > > particular point in the development of his career. As such it reflects
                    his
                    > > best shot at particular solutions to a number of compromises at that
                    time.
                    > > Gazelle is a long, narrow, and shallow boat for her displacement and I'm
                    > not
                    > > sure she could carry the weight of a third mast in her bow. I think the
                    > > jib/bowsprit, while not as easy to sheet or reef as a junk sail, is a
                    good
                    > > solution to a couple of different design problems.
                    > >
                    > > My comment about the shrouds is just my recollection of something Colvin
                    > > wrote. As I recall he stated that the masts are primarily designed to
                    > stand
                    > > on their own and that the shrouds were mostly there to prevent whipping
                    in
                    > > rough seas. As I recall the masts were build of thick wall pipe. It is
                    > > possible that Colvin used a combination of shrouds and light masts to
                    > reduce
                    > > weight aloft and that free standing masts would be too heavy on this
                    > > particular design but that is an engineering question that someone would
                    > > have to put to him.
                    > >
                    > > Boats are very personal objects. I happen to love the look of
                    traditional
                    > > junks and from my limited experience on one boat I know that the rig is
                    > easy
                    > > to handle and fun to sail. Your statements in favor of a pure junk rig
                    > over
                    > > a junk/jib combination highlighted a number of potential alternative
                    rigs
                    > > and some of the compromises inherent in the choice of a rig: "She will
                    not
                    > > point as well as any sloop rig, nor is she as handy as a full on Junk
                    rig.
                    > > The standing rigging is a major hindrance to downwind sailing and the
                    jib
                    > is
                    > > a nuisance. However, she is better than a bermudan rig downwind, less
                    > handy
                    > > than a freestanding junk rig." I took your comments as a comparison of
                    > > Gazelle with a heavy displacement junk rigged boat and also as a
                    > comparison
                    > > of Gazelle against all types of cruising boats. For that reason I think
                    > the
                    > > inclusion of multihulls in the discussion is perfectly relevant. All of
                    > your
                    > > points are valid but you neglected the hull part of the equation - eg.
                    > > displacement. A heavy displacement traditional junk is on the far end of
                    a
                    > > displacement spectrum that runs to multihulls on the other end with
                    > Gazelle
                    > > somewhere in the middle. If you consider both the hull and the rig
                    > together
                    > > and if the boat is simply a vehicle that allows you to voyage/cruise,
                    then
                    > a
                    > > well designed low-tech catamaran is the most logical choice based on
                    > factors
                    > > such as cost, handling, comfort, safety, and speed. I know that this can
                    > be
                    > > a pretty volatile issue so if you disagree lets just agree to disagree
                    and
                    > > not debate the thing to death.
                    > >
                    > > John
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: Steve Rankin [mailto:srankin@...]
                    > > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 11:44 AM
                    > > To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > John and all
                    > >
                    > > I don't quite understand what the thread of this comment below is in
                    > > response to, but I thought we were discussing the Gazelle rig as
                    designed
                    > > by Colvin. I think "rigs" and "hulls" are sufficiently different issues
                    as
                    > > to merit their own discussion.
                    > > Re: shrouds
                    > > If the design was for a free standing mast, the shrouds would obviously
                    > not
                    > > be required to stop whipping as they would not be either called for nor
                    > > used. A mast designed to be supported and braced by standing rigging,
                    > would
                    > > do more than whip without the shrouds.
                    > > Re: cat preference
                    > > I would think your opinion is not held by the majority based on a couple
                    > of
                    > > personal observations.
                    > > 1. Most sailing vessels in the parts of the world I've been are not
                    > hauling
                    > > frieght.
                    > > 2. Most vessels not hauling frieght are mono hulls.
                    > > 3. Most new vessels under construction are mono hulls
                    > > Re Sale of Colvin's plans.
                    > > 1. I don't know how many plans Colvin has sold, nor would I care to try
                    > and
                    > > figure that out, but the relative popularity, my guess, would be
                    > influenced
                    > > by the better (defined by faster, cheaper, stronger) construction
                    > techniques
                    > > that exist now, and a broader understanding of the strength and
                    weaknesses
                    > > of the junk rig, resulting from thirty more years of experience and
                    > > obsevation in the field on western style hulls.
                    > >
                    > > Steve Rankin
                    > > "Bu'Kwiis"
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Message -----
                    > > From: "John Gerlach" <gerlach1@...>
                    > > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 7:13 AM
                    > > Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > > My last comment was too short. What I meant to say was that it takes
                    > money
                    > > > and effort to drive a heavy displacement hull either in the form of
                    > > > additional sail area or a larger engine. If you need to haul a cargo
                    > then
                    > > I
                    > > > think a junk hull and rig is the way to go. However, if you will not
                    be
                    > > > hauling cargo then a catamaran, perhaps with a Bolger "Double Eagle"
                    > rig,
                    > > > would be a better choice unless it is hard to find a wide berth. I
                    think
                    > > of
                    > > > Colvin's Gazelle and Bolger's sharpies as a single hulled catamarans.
                    > The
                    > > > cat will get you there in more comfort in half the time and provides a
                    > lot
                    > > > more living area. I think one of the reasons Colvin has not sold more
                    > > plans
                    > > > is the rapid rise in popularity of multihulls as cruising boats.
                    > > >
                    > > > Gazelle was one of Colvin's first designs using the junk rig. The
                    > shrouds
                    > > > were specified to stop the mast from whipping and with some additional
                    > > > engineering it could be eliminated. The light weather bowsprit/jib
                    > > > combination is a cheap way to add sail area to a light displacement
                    hull
                    > > and
                    > > > helps drive the boat choppy light air conditions - the worst sailing
                    > > > conditions for a full junk rig. Many times we made it back to harbor
                    > under
                    > > > sail because of the jib.
                    > > >
                    > > > John
                    > > >
                    > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > From: Steve Rankin [mailto:srankin@...]
                    > > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 11:10 PM
                    > > > To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > She will not point as well as any sloop rig, nor is she as handy as a
                    > full
                    > > > on Junk rig. The standing rigging is a major hinderance to downwind
                    > > sailing
                    > > > and the jib is a nuisance. However, she is better than a bermudan rig
                    > > > downwind, less handy than a freestanding junk rig.
                    > > >
                    > > > Steve Rankin
                    > > > "Bu'Kwiis"
                    > > >
                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > From: "Bob Mergy" <rmergy@...>
                    > > > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 7:00 PM
                    > > > Subject: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > > I have read every book I can find, which are not many, on Junk
                    Riggs.
                    > > > > And now I am building my own boat which will be Junk Rigged. My
                    > > > > boat is a 42 foot Gazelle designed by Mr. Tom Colvin from Alba, Fla.
                    > > > > What is unique about Mr. Colvin's designs is that he has married the
                    > > > > East with the West. My 42 foot (on deck) Gazelle has a Jib up front
                    > > > > of 149 Sq. Ft. The Gazelle has an 8 foot bowsprit to put the jib
                    way
                    > > > > out front. My foresail is 250 Sq. Ft. and my main is 450 Sq. Ft. I
                    > > > > also have a fisherman with 140 Sq. Ft. and for trade wind sailing A
                    > > > > spinaker that is 16 by 25. This rigg will point as well as any
                    > > > > sloop rigg, but has all the benefits of a Junk Rigg.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Anyone interested in Junk Riggs should read some of Mr. Colvins
                    books
                    > > > > on ship building and sail making. Mr. Colvin spent many years
                    > > > > sailing as well as a number of years in the orient. He is a very
                    > > > > knowledgeable seaman/designer and has been a Junk Rigg advocate for
                    > > > > at least three decades, probably more.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I spent about seven years studing the many boats and riggs designs
                    > > > > before choosing the Gazelle. For my needs the Gazelle fit the bill
                    > > > > 98% (lacks the beam I wanted). As a retired manufacturing engineer I
                    > > > > wanted a boat that I could build that was large enough to handle
                    blue
                    > > > > water well, have a shallow draft for waterways, sturdy enough for
                    all
                    > > > > conditions, and with a rigg that can be singlehanded if need be.
                    > > > > After spending a day and a half with Mr. Colvin in Florida I
                    > > > > purchased a bare hull and a set of plans and have been working on
                    her
                    > > > > for three yeas now. Launching her should be around the middle of
                    > > > > March 2001.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > You can see my boat at www.hobo.itgo.com if you are interested.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Bob
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
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                  • John Gerlach
                    Victor and Paul, How do you put camber into a junk sail. I ve read that Bolger s gaff/junk sail allows camber adjustments but I ve never heard of putting
                    Message 9 of 26 , Feb 19, 2001
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Victor and Paul,

                      How do you put camber into a junk sail. I've read that Bolger's gaff/junk
                      sail allows camber adjustments but I've never heard of putting camber into a
                      junk sail. Pardon me if this has been discussed before but I just tried to
                      search the archives and the switch from e-groups to Yahoo seems to have
                      blocked my access to them.

                      Thanks,

                      John

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Victor Winterthun [mailto:victor@...]
                      Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 6:40 AM
                      To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs


                      Hi John.
                      You say that junkrig is "at its worst" in light air conditions. This is only
                      true when you have to flat sail. I beat bigger boats in light air, unless it
                      is upwind.And unless they set spinnakers, or other big lightweather sails.
                      Forget flat sails. Get fullness in them, and you will see another kind of
                      sailing..

                      Victor.
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "John Gerlach" <gerlach1@...>
                      To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 5:03 AM
                      Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs


                      > Ok,
                      >
                      > Now, if I am following you, you are saying that Gazelle would be better
                      with
                      > a rig like Ron Glas on the cover of Practical Junk Rig. Fair enough. If
                      you
                      > look at a drawing of Gazelle you will see that her foremast is pretty far
                      > forward already. Think of the jib as a ghoster for light air conditions.
                      > These are exactly the conditions where a junk sail is at its worst. Hasler
                      > and McLeod offer a range of light weather ghoster options for increasing
                      the
                      > speed of the junk rig under light air conditions for "sailing fanatics".
                      > Count me in as a fanatic - I don't like sitting still waiting for the wind
                      > to increase when a light air sail will keep the boat moving. Hasler and
                      > McLoud note that it is difficult to get correct sheeting angles for the
                      > ghoster unless a bow sprit is used. Gazelle has one of those. So, I think
                      > the jib is worth the extra effort for keeping the boat moving in light
                      > winds. Since I have not sailed aboard a boat with a full junk rig I'd
                      > appreciate any comments by you or anyone else about how a full junk rig
                      > performs in a variety of light air conditions.
                      >
                      > John
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Steve Rankin [mailto:srankin@...]
                      > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 12:04 PM
                      > To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                      >
                      >
                      > John
                      > I have no idea why as you stated below you assume my comments are
                      comparing
                      > a Gazelle with a heavy displacement hull. My comments are on the Gazelle
                      > period. How you jumped to the conclusion that a third mast was somehow the
                      > alternative escapes me. The Gazelle in MHO would be a better boat without
                      a
                      > jib, standing rigging, and with a rig that is balanced by increasing the
                      > sail area forward. That means moving the foremast forward, and increasing
                      > the height and sail area.
                      > Other than the shortcomings of the rig, she is a very decent boat.
                      >
                      > Steve Rankin
                      > "Bu'Kwiis"
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "John Gerlach" <gerlach1@...>
                      > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 4:45 PM
                      > Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                      >
                      >
                      > > Steve,
                      > >
                      > > You can discuss rigs and hulls as separate entities but what would be
                      the
                      > > point? The design of a boat is an iterative process to arrive at the
                      best
                      > > design when given a limited set of options. The rig used on Gazelle was
                      > > designed for a particular light displacement hull by a designer at a
                      > > particular point in the development of his career. As such it reflects
                      his
                      > > best shot at particular solutions to a number of compromises at that
                      time.
                      > > Gazelle is a long, narrow, and shallow boat for her displacement and I'm
                      > not
                      > > sure she could carry the weight of a third mast in her bow. I think the
                      > > jib/bowsprit, while not as easy to sheet or reef as a junk sail, is a
                      good
                      > > solution to a couple of different design problems.
                      > >
                      > > My comment about the shrouds is just my recollection of something Colvin
                      > > wrote. As I recall he stated that the masts are primarily designed to
                      > stand
                      > > on their own and that the shrouds were mostly there to prevent whipping
                      in
                      > > rough seas. As I recall the masts were build of thick wall pipe. It is
                      > > possible that Colvin used a combination of shrouds and light masts to
                      > reduce
                      > > weight aloft and that free standing masts would be too heavy on this
                      > > particular design but that is an engineering question that someone would
                      > > have to put to him.
                      > >
                      > > Boats are very personal objects. I happen to love the look of
                      traditional
                      > > junks and from my limited experience on one boat I know that the rig is
                      > easy
                      > > to handle and fun to sail. Your statements in favor of a pure junk rig
                      > over
                      > > a junk/jib combination highlighted a number of potential alternative
                      rigs
                      > > and some of the compromises inherent in the choice of a rig: "She will
                      not
                      > > point as well as any sloop rig, nor is she as handy as a full on Junk
                      rig.
                      > > The standing rigging is a major hindrance to downwind sailing and the
                      jib
                      > is
                      > > a nuisance. However, she is better than a bermudan rig downwind, less
                      > handy
                      > > than a freestanding junk rig." I took your comments as a comparison of
                      > > Gazelle with a heavy displacement junk rigged boat and also as a
                      > comparison
                      > > of Gazelle against all types of cruising boats. For that reason I think
                      > the
                      > > inclusion of multihulls in the discussion is perfectly relevant. All of
                      > your
                      > > points are valid but you neglected the hull part of the equation - eg.
                      > > displacement. A heavy displacement traditional junk is on the far end of
                      a
                      > > displacement spectrum that runs to multihulls on the other end with
                      > Gazelle
                      > > somewhere in the middle. If you consider both the hull and the rig
                      > together
                      > > and if the boat is simply a vehicle that allows you to voyage/cruise,
                      then
                      > a
                      > > well designed low-tech catamaran is the most logical choice based on
                      > factors
                      > > such as cost, handling, comfort, safety, and speed. I know that this can
                      > be
                      > > a pretty volatile issue so if you disagree lets just agree to disagree
                      and
                      > > not debate the thing to death.
                      > >
                      > > John
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: Steve Rankin [mailto:srankin@...]
                      > > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 11:44 AM
                      > > To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > John and all
                      > >
                      > > I don't quite understand what the thread of this comment below is in
                      > > response to, but I thought we were discussing the Gazelle rig as
                      designed
                      > > by Colvin. I think "rigs" and "hulls" are sufficiently different issues
                      as
                      > > to merit their own discussion.
                      > > Re: shrouds
                      > > If the design was for a free standing mast, the shrouds would obviously
                      > not
                      > > be required to stop whipping as they would not be either called for nor
                      > > used. A mast designed to be supported and braced by standing rigging,
                      > would
                      > > do more than whip without the shrouds.
                      > > Re: cat preference
                      > > I would think your opinion is not held by the majority based on a couple
                      > of
                      > > personal observations.
                      > > 1. Most sailing vessels in the parts of the world I've been are not
                      > hauling
                      > > frieght.
                      > > 2. Most vessels not hauling frieght are mono hulls.
                      > > 3. Most new vessels under construction are mono hulls
                      > > Re Sale of Colvin's plans.
                      > > 1. I don't know how many plans Colvin has sold, nor would I care to try
                      > and
                      > > figure that out, but the relative popularity, my guess, would be
                      > influenced
                      > > by the better (defined by faster, cheaper, stronger) construction
                      > techniques
                      > > that exist now, and a broader understanding of the strength and
                      weaknesses
                      > > of the junk rig, resulting from thirty more years of experience and
                      > > obsevation in the field on western style hulls.
                      > >
                      > > Steve Rankin
                      > > "Bu'Kwiis"
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Message -----
                      > > From: "John Gerlach" <gerlach1@...>
                      > > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 7:13 AM
                      > > Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > > My last comment was too short. What I meant to say was that it takes
                      > money
                      > > > and effort to drive a heavy displacement hull either in the form of
                      > > > additional sail area or a larger engine. If you need to haul a cargo
                      > then
                      > > I
                      > > > think a junk hull and rig is the way to go. However, if you will not
                      be
                      > > > hauling cargo then a catamaran, perhaps with a Bolger "Double Eagle"
                      > rig,
                      > > > would be a better choice unless it is hard to find a wide berth. I
                      think
                      > > of
                      > > > Colvin's Gazelle and Bolger's sharpies as a single hulled catamarans.
                      > The
                      > > > cat will get you there in more comfort in half the time and provides a
                      > lot
                      > > > more living area. I think one of the reasons Colvin has not sold more
                      > > plans
                      > > > is the rapid rise in popularity of multihulls as cruising boats.
                      > > >
                      > > > Gazelle was one of Colvin's first designs using the junk rig. The
                      > shrouds
                      > > > were specified to stop the mast from whipping and with some additional
                      > > > engineering it could be eliminated. The light weather bowsprit/jib
                      > > > combination is a cheap way to add sail area to a light displacement
                      hull
                      > > and
                      > > > helps drive the boat choppy light air conditions - the worst sailing
                      > > > conditions for a full junk rig. Many times we made it back to harbor
                      > under
                      > > > sail because of the jib.
                      > > >
                      > > > John
                      > > >
                      > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > From: Steve Rankin [mailto:srankin@...]
                      > > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 11:10 PM
                      > > > To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > She will not point as well as any sloop rig, nor is she as handy as a
                      > full
                      > > > on Junk rig. The standing rigging is a major hinderance to downwind
                      > > sailing
                      > > > and the jib is a nuisance. However, she is better than a bermudan rig
                      > > > downwind, less handy than a freestanding junk rig.
                      > > >
                      > > > Steve Rankin
                      > > > "Bu'Kwiis"
                      > > >
                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > From: "Bob Mergy" <rmergy@...>
                      > > > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 7:00 PM
                      > > > Subject: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > > I have read every book I can find, which are not many, on Junk
                      Riggs.
                      > > > > And now I am building my own boat which will be Junk Rigged. My
                      > > > > boat is a 42 foot Gazelle designed by Mr. Tom Colvin from Alba, Fla.
                      > > > > What is unique about Mr. Colvin's designs is that he has married the
                      > > > > East with the West. My 42 foot (on deck) Gazelle has a Jib up front
                      > > > > of 149 Sq. Ft. The Gazelle has an 8 foot bowsprit to put the jib
                      way
                      > > > > out front. My foresail is 250 Sq. Ft. and my main is 450 Sq. Ft. I
                      > > > > also have a fisherman with 140 Sq. Ft. and for trade wind sailing A
                      > > > > spinaker that is 16 by 25. This rigg will point as well as any
                      > > > > sloop rigg, but has all the benefits of a Junk Rigg.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Anyone interested in Junk Riggs should read some of Mr. Colvins
                      books
                      > > > > on ship building and sail making. Mr. Colvin spent many years
                      > > > > sailing as well as a number of years in the orient. He is a very
                      > > > > knowledgeable seaman/designer and has been a Junk Rigg advocate for
                      > > > > at least three decades, probably more.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I spent about seven years studing the many boats and riggs designs
                      > > > > before choosing the Gazelle. For my needs the Gazelle fit the bill
                      > > > > 98% (lacks the beam I wanted). As a retired manufacturing engineer I
                      > > > > wanted a boat that I could build that was large enough to handle
                      blue
                      > > > > water well, have a shallow draft for waterways, sturdy enough for
                      all
                      > > > > conditions, and with a rigg that can be singlehanded if need be.
                      > > > > After spending a day and a half with Mr. Colvin in Florida I
                      > > > > purchased a bare hull and a set of plans and have been working on
                      her
                      > > > > for three yeas now. Launching her should be around the middle of
                      > > > > March 2001.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > You can see my boat at www.hobo.itgo.com if you are interested.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Bob
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
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                    • Victor Winterthun
                      Hi John. My own sail is made flat. By a mistake of the sailmaker. Therefore I made hinged battens. There are two hinges in each batten. Giving 10% fullness in
                      Message 10 of 26 , Feb 19, 2001
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi John.
                        My own sail is made flat. By a mistake of the sailmaker. Therefore I made hinged battens. There are two hinges in each batten. Giving 10% fullness in even the lightest of wind, but never more. I have used this system for 7 years now, and it work without any problem.
                        Another way to get fullness in a junksail, is to make each panel full. Visit my homepage at:
                        http://www.winterthun.net/victor
                        And see junkrig with full panels. Sailing fast in light wind.

                        Victor
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "John Gerlach" <gerlach1@...>
                        To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 5:32 PM
                        Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs


                        > Victor and Paul,
                        >
                        > How do you put camber into a junk sail. I've read that Bolger's gaff/junk
                        > sail allows camber adjustments but I've never heard of putting camber into a
                        > junk sail. Pardon me if this has been discussed before but I just tried to
                        > search the archives and the switch from e-groups to Yahoo seems to have
                        > blocked my access to them.
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        >
                        > John
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Victor Winterthun [mailto:victor@...]
                        > Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 6:40 AM
                        > To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi John.
                        > You say that junkrig is "at its worst" in light air conditions. This is only
                        > true when you have to flat sail. I beat bigger boats in light air, unless it
                        > is upwind.And unless they set spinnakers, or other big lightweather sails.
                        > Forget flat sails. Get fullness in them, and you will see another kind of
                        > sailing..
                        >
                        > Victor.
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "John Gerlach" <gerlach1@...>
                        > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 5:03 AM
                        > Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                        >
                        >
                        > > Ok,
                        > >
                        > > Now, if I am following you, you are saying that Gazelle would be better
                        > with
                        > > a rig like Ron Glas on the cover of Practical Junk Rig. Fair enough. If
                        > you
                        > > look at a drawing of Gazelle you will see that her foremast is pretty far
                        > > forward already. Think of the jib as a ghoster for light air conditions.
                        > > These are exactly the conditions where a junk sail is at its worst. Hasler
                        > > and McLeod offer a range of light weather ghoster options for increasing
                        > the
                        > > speed of the junk rig under light air conditions for "sailing fanatics".
                        > > Count me in as a fanatic - I don't like sitting still waiting for the wind
                        > > to increase when a light air sail will keep the boat moving. Hasler and
                        > > McLoud note that it is difficult to get correct sheeting angles for the
                        > > ghoster unless a bow sprit is used. Gazelle has one of those. So, I think
                        > > the jib is worth the extra effort for keeping the boat moving in light
                        > > winds. Since I have not sailed aboard a boat with a full junk rig I'd
                        > > appreciate any comments by you or anyone else about how a full junk rig
                        > > performs in a variety of light air conditions.
                        > >
                        > > John
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: Steve Rankin [mailto:srankin@...]
                        > > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 12:04 PM
                        > > To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > John
                        > > I have no idea why as you stated below you assume my comments are
                        > comparing
                        > > a Gazelle with a heavy displacement hull. My comments are on the Gazelle
                        > > period. How you jumped to the conclusion that a third mast was somehow the
                        > > alternative escapes me. The Gazelle in MHO would be a better boat without
                        > a
                        > > jib, standing rigging, and with a rig that is balanced by increasing the
                        > > sail area forward. That means moving the foremast forward, and increasing
                        > > the height and sail area.
                        > > Other than the shortcomings of the rig, she is a very decent boat.
                        > >
                        > > Steve Rankin
                        > > "Bu'Kwiis"
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: "John Gerlach" <gerlach1@...>
                        > > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 4:45 PM
                        > > Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > > Steve,
                        > > >
                        > > > You can discuss rigs and hulls as separate entities but what would be
                        > the
                        > > > point? The design of a boat is an iterative process to arrive at the
                        > best
                        > > > design when given a limited set of options. The rig used on Gazelle was
                        > > > designed for a particular light displacement hull by a designer at a
                        > > > particular point in the development of his career. As such it reflects
                        > his
                        > > > best shot at particular solutions to a number of compromises at that
                        > time.
                        > > > Gazelle is a long, narrow, and shallow boat for her displacement and I'm
                        > > not
                        > > > sure she could carry the weight of a third mast in her bow. I think the
                        > > > jib/bowsprit, while not as easy to sheet or reef as a junk sail, is a
                        > good
                        > > > solution to a couple of different design problems.
                        > > >
                        > > > My comment about the shrouds is just my recollection of something Colvin
                        > > > wrote. As I recall he stated that the masts are primarily designed to
                        > > stand
                        > > > on their own and that the shrouds were mostly there to prevent whipping
                        > in
                        > > > rough seas. As I recall the masts were build of thick wall pipe. It is
                        > > > possible that Colvin used a combination of shrouds and light masts to
                        > > reduce
                        > > > weight aloft and that free standing masts would be too heavy on this
                        > > > particular design but that is an engineering question that someone would
                        > > > have to put to him.
                        > > >
                        > > > Boats are very personal objects. I happen to love the look of
                        > traditional
                        > > > junks and from my limited experience on one boat I know that the rig is
                        > > easy
                        > > > to handle and fun to sail. Your statements in favor of a pure junk rig
                        > > over
                        > > > a junk/jib combination highlighted a number of potential alternative
                        > rigs
                        > > > and some of the compromises inherent in the choice of a rig: "She will
                        > not
                        > > > point as well as any sloop rig, nor is she as handy as a full on Junk
                        > rig.
                        > > > The standing rigging is a major hindrance to downwind sailing and the
                        > jib
                        > > is
                        > > > a nuisance. However, she is better than a bermudan rig downwind, less
                        > > handy
                        > > > than a freestanding junk rig." I took your comments as a comparison of
                        > > > Gazelle with a heavy displacement junk rigged boat and also as a
                        > > comparison
                        > > > of Gazelle against all types of cruising boats. For that reason I think
                        > > the
                        > > > inclusion of multihulls in the discussion is perfectly relevant. All of
                        > > your
                        > > > points are valid but you neglected the hull part of the equation - eg.
                        > > > displacement. A heavy displacement traditional junk is on the far end of
                        > a
                        > > > displacement spectrum that runs to multihulls on the other end with
                        > > Gazelle
                        > > > somewhere in the middle. If you consider both the hull and the rig
                        > > together
                        > > > and if the boat is simply a vehicle that allows you to voyage/cruise,
                        > then
                        > > a
                        > > > well designed low-tech catamaran is the most logical choice based on
                        > > factors
                        > > > such as cost, handling, comfort, safety, and speed. I know that this can
                        > > be
                        > > > a pretty volatile issue so if you disagree lets just agree to disagree
                        > and
                        > > > not debate the thing to death.
                        > > >
                        > > > John
                        > > >
                        > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > From: Steve Rankin [mailto:srankin@...]
                        > > > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 11:44 AM
                        > > > To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > John and all
                        > > >
                        > > > I don't quite understand what the thread of this comment below is in
                        > > > response to, but I thought we were discussing the Gazelle rig as
                        > designed
                        > > > by Colvin. I think "rigs" and "hulls" are sufficiently different issues
                        > as
                        > > > to merit their own discussion.
                        > > > Re: shrouds
                        > > > If the design was for a free standing mast, the shrouds would obviously
                        > > not
                        > > > be required to stop whipping as they would not be either called for nor
                        > > > used. A mast designed to be supported and braced by standing rigging,
                        > > would
                        > > > do more than whip without the shrouds.
                        > > > Re: cat preference
                        > > > I would think your opinion is not held by the majority based on a couple
                        > > of
                        > > > personal observations.
                        > > > 1. Most sailing vessels in the parts of the world I've been are not
                        > > hauling
                        > > > frieght.
                        > > > 2. Most vessels not hauling frieght are mono hulls.
                        > > > 3. Most new vessels under construction are mono hulls
                        > > > Re Sale of Colvin's plans.
                        > > > 1. I don't know how many plans Colvin has sold, nor would I care to try
                        > > and
                        > > > figure that out, but the relative popularity, my guess, would be
                        > > influenced
                        > > > by the better (defined by faster, cheaper, stronger) construction
                        > > techniques
                        > > > that exist now, and a broader understanding of the strength and
                        > weaknesses
                        > > > of the junk rig, resulting from thirty more years of experience and
                        > > > obsevation in the field on western style hulls.
                        > > >
                        > > > Steve Rankin
                        > > > "Bu'Kwiis"
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Message -----
                        > > > From: "John Gerlach" <gerlach1@...>
                        > > > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 7:13 AM
                        > > > Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > > My last comment was too short. What I meant to say was that it takes
                        > > money
                        > > > > and effort to drive a heavy displacement hull either in the form of
                        > > > > additional sail area or a larger engine. If you need to haul a cargo
                        > > then
                        > > > I
                        > > > > think a junk hull and rig is the way to go. However, if you will not
                        > be
                        > > > > hauling cargo then a catamaran, perhaps with a Bolger "Double Eagle"
                        > > rig,
                        > > > > would be a better choice unless it is hard to find a wide berth. I
                        > think
                        > > > of
                        > > > > Colvin's Gazelle and Bolger's sharpies as a single hulled catamarans.
                        > > The
                        > > > > cat will get you there in more comfort in half the time and provides a
                        > > lot
                        > > > > more living area. I think one of the reasons Colvin has not sold more
                        > > > plans
                        > > > > is the rapid rise in popularity of multihulls as cruising boats.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Gazelle was one of Colvin's first designs using the junk rig. The
                        > > shrouds
                        > > > > were specified to stop the mast from whipping and with some additional
                        > > > > engineering it could be eliminated. The light weather bowsprit/jib
                        > > > > combination is a cheap way to add sail area to a light displacement
                        > hull
                        > > > and
                        > > > > helps drive the boat choppy light air conditions - the worst sailing
                        > > > > conditions for a full junk rig. Many times we made it back to harbor
                        > > under
                        > > > > sail because of the jib.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > John
                        > > > >
                        > > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > > From: Steve Rankin [mailto:srankin@...]
                        > > > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 11:10 PM
                        > > > > To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > She will not point as well as any sloop rig, nor is she as handy as a
                        > > full
                        > > > > on Junk rig. The standing rigging is a major hinderance to downwind
                        > > > sailing
                        > > > > and the jib is a nuisance. However, she is better than a bermudan rig
                        > > > > downwind, less handy than a freestanding junk rig.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Steve Rankin
                        > > > > "Bu'Kwiis"
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > > From: "Bob Mergy" <rmergy@...>
                        > > > > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 7:00 PM
                        > > > > Subject: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > I have read every book I can find, which are not many, on Junk
                        > Riggs.
                        > > > > > And now I am building my own boat which will be Junk Rigged. My
                        > > > > > boat is a 42 foot Gazelle designed by Mr. Tom Colvin from Alba, Fla.
                        > > > > > What is unique about Mr. Colvin's designs is that he has married the
                        > > > > > East with the West. My 42 foot (on deck) Gazelle has a Jib up front
                        > > > > > of 149 Sq. Ft. The Gazelle has an 8 foot bowsprit to put the jib
                        > way
                        > > > > > out front. My foresail is 250 Sq. Ft. and my main is 450 Sq. Ft. I
                        > > > > > also have a fisherman with 140 Sq. Ft. and for trade wind sailing A
                        > > > > > spinaker that is 16 by 25. This rigg will point as well as any
                        > > > > > sloop rigg, but has all the benefits of a Junk Rigg.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Anyone interested in Junk Riggs should read some of Mr. Colvins
                        > books
                        > > > > > on ship building and sail making. Mr. Colvin spent many years
                        > > > > > sailing as well as a number of years in the orient. He is a very
                        > > > > > knowledgeable seaman/designer and has been a Junk Rigg advocate for
                        > > > > > at least three decades, probably more.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I spent about seven years studing the many boats and riggs designs
                        > > > > > before choosing the Gazelle. For my needs the Gazelle fit the bill
                        > > > > > 98% (lacks the beam I wanted). As a retired manufacturing engineer I
                        > > > > > wanted a boat that I could build that was large enough to handle
                        > blue
                        > > > > > water well, have a shallow draft for waterways, sturdy enough for
                        > all
                        > > > > > conditions, and with a rigg that can be singlehanded if need be.
                        > > > > > After spending a day and a half with Mr. Colvin in Florida I
                        > > > > > purchased a bare hull and a set of plans and have been working on
                        > her
                        > > > > > for three yeas now. Launching her should be around the middle of
                        > > > > > March 2001.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > You can see my boat at www.hobo.itgo.com if you are interested.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Bob
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > > > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
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                        > > > >
                        > > >
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                      • Don Taylor & Sue Welsh
                        My experience on Pilger (another Gazelle) is pretty much the same as that of Steve Rankin s experience on bu Kwiis. The jib is a pain, but you need it to
                        Message 11 of 26 , Feb 19, 2001
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                          My experience on Pilger (another Gazelle) is pretty much the same as that of
                          Steve Rankin's experience on bu'Kwiis. The jib is a pain, but you need it
                          to balance the sail area. If you want to strike the jib, then you need to
                          take at least one, maybe two panels out of the main at the same time. I
                          would rather have a bigger, more powerful foresail set further forward
                          instead of a foresail and jib. The foresail on a Gazelle is a beauty - easy
                          to manage, always balanced. But, it just ain't big enough! I would also
                          rather have unstayed masts. Unfortunately, these are big engineering
                          changes for a Gazelle. However, it has been done. I once saw a Gazelle
                          called Gaia with something like a two masted Fenix rig.

                          I find that the jib does NOT pull that well, and often luffs before the
                          foresail. Tom C. tells me it is because I have roller furling (actually a
                          Wykeham-Martin style furler) and that I must remove it before I can be happy
                          with the jib. I will try this when when Pilger is finally reassembled, but
                          I am not terribly optimistic that it will make that much difference.

                          I do have one further point to ponder about stayed vs. stayed rigs on a
                          Gazelle. I wonder if you could dispense with just the foremast shrouds, but
                          keep the forestay, triatic and mainmast shrouds? The foremast is fairly
                          short and does not whip so much as the main. It would still get fore and
                          aft support against whipping and would also allow you to let the foresail
                          run free when sailing downwind. I dunno, its probably a bad idea.

                          Don.
                        • John Gerlach
                          Don, I don t know if you have access to a copy of Practical Junk Rig but Ron Glas and Galway Blazer II have only mains and foresails and look to be set up
                          Message 12 of 26 , Feb 19, 2001
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Don,

                            I don't know if you have access to a copy of Practical Junk Rig but Ron Glas
                            and Galway Blazer II have only mains and foresails and look to be set up
                            without any standing rigging. The sails are a bit different as they are the
                            higher aspect rectangular designs that Hasler and McLeod favor and they have
                            fin keels so the lateral area may be shifted forward. For that reason I
                            would expect them to have a quicker roll so if mast whipping is not a
                            problem on them it shouldn't be a problem on a Gazelle hull. You might make
                            a scale sailing model from your plans to try the jibless rig. If it works
                            you could use the formulas in PJR to design the rig. You could build the
                            round wooden masts yourself using Nobel system which is the same as the
                            "birdmouth" technique which was described recently in WoodenBoat magazine.

                            John

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Don Taylor & Sue Welsh [mailto:pilger@...]
                            Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 6:49 PM
                            To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs (sic)


                            My experience on Pilger (another Gazelle) is pretty much the same as that of
                            Steve Rankin's experience on bu'Kwiis. The jib is a pain, but you need it
                            to balance the sail area. If you want to strike the jib, then you need to
                            take at least one, maybe two panels out of the main at the same time. I
                            would rather have a bigger, more powerful foresail set further forward
                            instead of a foresail and jib. The foresail on a Gazelle is a beauty - easy
                            to manage, always balanced. But, it just ain't big enough! I would also
                            rather have unstayed masts. Unfortunately, these are big engineering
                            changes for a Gazelle. However, it has been done. I once saw a Gazelle
                            called Gaia with something like a two masted Fenix rig.

                            I find that the jib does NOT pull that well, and often luffs before the
                            foresail. Tom C. tells me it is because I have roller furling (actually a
                            Wykeham-Martin style furler) and that I must remove it before I can be happy
                            with the jib. I will try this when when Pilger is finally reassembled, but
                            I am not terribly optimistic that it will make that much difference.

                            I do have one further point to ponder about stayed vs. stayed rigs on a
                            Gazelle. I wonder if you could dispense with just the foremast shrouds, but
                            keep the forestay, triatic and mainmast shrouds? The foremast is fairly
                            short and does not whip so much as the main. It would still get fore and
                            aft support against whipping and would also allow you to let the foresail
                            run free when sailing downwind. I dunno, its probably a bad idea.

                            Don.




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                            junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                          • Steve Rankin
                            Don and all My thinking at the moment is to move the location of the foremast about 4ft forward, and put up an unstayed wooden stick of equal length to the
                            Message 13 of 26 , Feb 19, 2001
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                              Don and all
                              My thinking at the moment is to move the location of the foremast about 4ft
                              forward, and put up an unstayed wooden stick of equal length to the main,
                              which should allow me about 900 sq ft total. I'll leave the mainmast and
                              sail as is. This should improve balance and particularly downwind
                              performance. This modification shouldnt result in much structural work as
                              the foredeck is getting pretty stiff up there. Incidently that would permit
                              the triatic stay to continue having some value. She may not be as pretty,
                              but I expect a huge improvement in handiness. It would also give a chance to
                              try a cambered sail. Incidently, I sailed her both with and without
                              rollerfurling and found no apparent difference.
                              Steve Rankin
                              "Bu'Kwiis"
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Don Taylor & Sue Welsh" <pilger@...>
                              To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 6:49 PM
                              Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs (sic)


                              > My experience on Pilger (another Gazelle) is pretty much the same as that
                              of
                              > Steve Rankin's experience on bu'Kwiis. The jib is a pain, but you need it
                              > to balance the sail area. If you want to strike the jib, then you need to
                              > take at least one, maybe two panels out of the main at the same time. I
                              > would rather have a bigger, more powerful foresail set further forward
                              > instead of a foresail and jib. The foresail on a Gazelle is a beauty -
                              easy
                              > to manage, always balanced. But, it just ain't big enough! I would also
                              > rather have unstayed masts. Unfortunately, these are big engineering
                              > changes for a Gazelle. However, it has been done. I once saw a Gazelle
                              > called Gaia with something like a two masted Fenix rig.
                              >
                              > I find that the jib does NOT pull that well, and often luffs before the
                              > foresail. Tom C. tells me it is because I have roller furling (actually a
                              > Wykeham-Martin style furler) and that I must remove it before I can be
                              happy
                              > with the jib. I will try this when when Pilger is finally reassembled,
                              but
                              > I am not terribly optimistic that it will make that much difference.
                              >
                              > I do have one further point to ponder about stayed vs. stayed rigs on a
                              > Gazelle. I wonder if you could dispense with just the foremast shrouds,
                              but
                              > keep the forestay, triatic and mainmast shrouds? The foremast is fairly
                              > short and does not whip so much as the main. It would still get fore and
                              > aft support against whipping and would also allow you to let the foresail
                              > run free when sailing downwind. I dunno, its probably a bad idea.
                              >
                              > Don.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • pilger@bigfoot.com
                              John: Yes, I have a copy of PJR and I also have a copy of a Gazelle plan rigged with McLeod-Hasler style sails that was sent to me by Robin Blain. I decided
                              Message 14 of 26 , Feb 20, 2001
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                                John:

                                Yes, I have a copy of PJR and I also have a copy of a Gazelle plan rigged with McLeod-Hasler style sails that was sent to me by Robin Blain. I decided against this rig because I did not like the high-aspect ratio that a large M-H sail requires, especially if you want to keep enough clear space behind the sail to be able to use M-H style single sheets. The masts are considerably taller and I am concerned about the effect on stability of all that additional weight up high.

                                Additionally, I much prefer the look of a low-aspect ratio sail with a full, rounded roach.

                                I like the sound of Steve's proposal: move the foremast forward and make that mast somewhat taller. I would be concerned that the boat might not balance well under foresail alone, which I think is important.

                                Steve: Will you dispense with the bowsprit and forestay? Will you lean the foremast forward?

                                Don.

                                On Mon, 19 February 2001, John Gerlach wrote:

                                >
                                > Don,
                                >
                                > I don't know if you have access to a copy of Practical Junk Rig but Ron Glas
                                > and Galway Blazer II have only mains and foresails and look to be set up
                                > without any standing rigging. The sails are a bit different as they are the
                                > higher aspect rectangular designs that Hasler and McLeod favor and they have
                                > fin keels so the lateral area may be shifted forward. For that reason I
                                > would expect them to have a quicker roll so if mast whipping is not a
                                > problem on them it shouldn't be a problem on a Gazelle hull. You might make
                                > a scale sailing model from your plans to try the jibless rig. If it works
                                > you could use the formulas in PJR to design the rig. You could build the
                                > round wooden masts yourself using Nobel system which is the same as the
                                > "birdmouth" technique which was described recently in WoodenBoat magazine.
                                >
                                > John
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: Don Taylor & Sue Welsh [mailto:pilger@...]
                                > Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 6:49 PM
                                > To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs (sic)
                                >
                                >
                                > My experience on Pilger (another Gazelle) is pretty much the same as that of
                                > Steve Rankin's experience on bu'Kwiis. The jib is a pain, but you need it
                                > to balance the sail area. If you want to strike the jib, then you need to
                                > take at least one, maybe two panels out of the main at the same time. I
                                > would rather have a bigger, more powerful foresail set further forward
                                > instead of a foresail and jib. The foresail on a Gazelle is a beauty - easy
                                > to manage, always balanced. But, it just ain't big enough! I would also
                                > rather have unstayed masts. Unfortunately, these are big engineering
                                > changes for a Gazelle. However, it has been done. I once saw a Gazelle
                                > called Gaia with something like a two masted Fenix rig.
                                >
                                > I find that the jib does NOT pull that well, and often luffs before the
                                > foresail. Tom C. tells me it is because I have roller furling (actually a
                                > Wykeham-Martin style furler) and that I must remove it before I can be happy
                                > with the jib. I will try this when when Pilger is finally reassembled, but
                                > I am not terribly optimistic that it will make that much difference.
                                >
                                > I do have one further point to ponder about stayed vs. stayed rigs on a
                                > Gazelle. I wonder if you could dispense with just the foremast shrouds, but
                                > keep the forestay, triatic and mainmast shrouds? The foremast is fairly
                                > short and does not whip so much as the main. It would still get fore and
                                > aft support against whipping and would also allow you to let the foresail
                                > run free when sailing downwind. I dunno, its probably a bad idea.
                                >
                                > Don.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com


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                              • Steve Rankin
                                Don The bowsprit and forestay would go and forward lean only if necessary to develop sufficient area. Steve Rankin Bu Kwiis ... From: To:
                                Message 15 of 26 , Feb 20, 2001
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                                  Don
                                  The bowsprit and forestay would go and forward lean only if necessary to
                                  develop sufficient area.

                                  Steve Rankin
                                  Bu'Kwiis"

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: <pilger@...>
                                  To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 12:06 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [junkrig] Junk Riggs (sic)
                                  > Steve: Will you dispense with the bowsprit and forestay? Will you lean
                                  the foremast forward?
                                  >
                                  > Don.
                                • Paul Liebenberg
                                  ... hinged battens. There are two hinges in each batten. Giving 10% fullness in even the lightest of wind, but never more. I have used this system for 7 years
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Feb 20, 2001
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                                    > My own sail is made flat. By a mistake of the sailmaker. Therefore I made
                                    hinged battens. There are two hinges in each batten. Giving 10% fullness in
                                    even the lightest of wind, but never more. I have used this system for 7
                                    years now, and it work without any problem.
                                    > Another way to get fullness in a junksail, is to make each panel full.
                                    Visit my homepage at:
                                    > http://www.winterthun.net/victor
                                    > And see junkrig with full panels. Sailing fast in light wind.
                                    >
                                    > Victor
                                    Victor, If you were sewing new sails, would you use hinges or sew camber
                                    into separate panels? Also, has anyone made sails with Sailcut 8? If so, how
                                    did they turn out? Paul
                                    L
                                  • Victor Winterthun
                                    Hi Paul. I am now making a new sail for my boat. I will now try with camber in each panel. My friend Arne Kverneland in Stavanger are using it with good
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Feb 21, 2001
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                                      Hi Paul.
                                      I am now making a new sail for my boat. I will now try with camber in each panel. My friend Arne Kverneland in Stavanger are using it with good results. Another reason is that , with hinged battens, you can only have a small portion of the sail in front of the mast, and I would like to adjust that portion to suit me. A bigger portion when I am sailing off the wind.
                                      My sail is cut to 10% camber, but David Tyler use 6% in his new boat. See PBO no.:405, 406, and 408. He say that wind tunnel tests at Exeter University show that more than 6% is "not very productive". I think you can safely use 8%. If I should make a new sail with hinged battens, I would see to that the upper batten was not to cloce to the yard. I had to make my upper batten without hinges because it was taking form of an S around the mast when the wind came from the "sail side". You can see the sailplan for IRIS on my home-page.

                                      Victor.
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Paul Liebenberg" <Zelda@...>
                                      To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 8:44 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs


                                      >
                                      > > My own sail is made flat. By a mistake of the sailmaker. Therefore I made
                                      > hinged battens. There are two hinges in each batten. Giving 10% fullness in
                                      > even the lightest of wind, but never more. I have used this system for 7
                                      > years now, and it work without any problem.
                                      > > Another way to get fullness in a junksail, is to make each panel full.
                                      > Visit my homepage at:
                                      > > http://www.winterthun.net/victor
                                      > > And see junkrig with full panels. Sailing fast in light wind.
                                      > >
                                      > > Victor
                                      > Victor, If you were sewing new sails, would you use hinges or sew camber
                                      > into separate panels? Also, has anyone made sails with Sailcut 8? If so, how
                                      > did they turn out? Paul
                                      > L
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                                    • Paul Liebenberg
                                      Victor, When I make my sails, I plan on using the Sailcut software to make the individually cambered panels, the Hinged battens seem like a lot of work. I have
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Feb 21, 2001
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                                        Victor,
                                        When I make my sails, I plan on using the Sailcut software to
                                        make the individually cambered panels, the Hinged battens seem like a lot of
                                        work. I have read about Arne's method of making the panels and his sails
                                        look great, however the cad program makes it easy and quick to make changes
                                        to the sailplan as I see fit. I still haven't seen a sail made with the use
                                        of the software, anty out there?
                                        I notice most of the boats on your page use Aluminum for battens. Is this
                                        an issue of material cost and availability or was this the best way to get a
                                        sufficiently stiff batten?
                                        I read with interest the articles in pbo, It seems that he does pull the
                                        mast far forward for off the wind sailing. Any comment?
                                        Thanks, Paul Liebenberg
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Victor Winterthun <victor@...>
                                        To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 4:04 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs


                                        > Hi Paul.
                                        > I am now making a new sail for my boat. I will now try with camber in each
                                        panel. My friend Arne Kverneland in Stavanger are using it with good
                                        results. Another reason is that , with hinged battens, you can only have a
                                        small portion of the sail in front of the mast, and I would like to adjust
                                        that portion to suit me. A bigger portion when I am sailing off the wind.
                                        > My sail is cut to 10% camber, but David Tyler use 6% in his new boat. See
                                        PBO no.:405, 406, and 408. He say that wind tunnel tests at Exeter
                                        University show that more than 6% is "not very productive". I think you can
                                        safely use 8%. If I should make a new sail with hinged battens, I would see
                                        to that the upper batten was not to cloce to the yard. I had to make my
                                        upper batten without hinges because it was taking form of an S around the
                                        mast when the wind came from the "sail side". You can see the sailplan for
                                        IRIS on my home-page.
                                        >
                                        > Victor.
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: "Paul Liebenberg" <Zelda@...>
                                        > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                                        > Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 8:44 AM
                                        > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > > > My own sail is made flat. By a mistake of the sailmaker. Therefore I
                                        made
                                        > > hinged battens. There are two hinges in each batten. Giving 10% fullness
                                        in
                                        > > even the lightest of wind, but never more. I have used this system for 7
                                        > > years now, and it work without any problem.
                                        > > > Another way to get fullness in a junksail, is to make each panel full.
                                        > > Visit my homepage at:
                                        > > > http://www.winterthun.net/victor
                                        > > > And see junkrig with full panels. Sailing fast in light wind.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Victor
                                        > > Victor, If you were sewing new sails, would you use hinges or sew camber
                                        > > into separate panels? Also, has anyone made sails with Sailcut 8? If so,
                                        how
                                        > > did they turn out?
                                        Paul
                                        > > L
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                                        > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                        > >
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                                        > >
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                                      • pilger@bigfoot.com
                                        On Wed, 21 February 2001, Victor Winterthun wrote: Another reason is that , with hinged battens, you can only have a small portion of the sail in front of
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Feb 21, 2001
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                                          On Wed, 21 February 2001, "Victor Winterthun" wrote:

                                          Another reason is that , with hinged battens, you can only have a small portion of the sail in front of the mast, and I would like to adjust that portion to suit me. A bigger portion when I am sailing off the wind.

                                          Victor:

                                          I am glad that you wrote this as I have never seen this objection to hinged battens before, and I think that it is a serious objection. One of the big advantages of a junk sail is the ability to take a standing gybe without losing a sail. This would be lost if there was little or no sail in front of the mast.

                                          I am not sure that I understand why the hinged battens prevent you from increasing the balance area of the sail. Could you please explain what why this is so.

                                          Don.

                                          Thanks,


                                          Don.


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                                        • Victor Winterthun
                                          Hi Don. In order to get the max. camber 35-40% from the leading edge of the sail, you have to place the foremost hinge ca. 30% from thr leading edge. If you
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Feb 22, 2001
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                                            Hi Don.
                                            In order to get the max. camber 35-40% from the leading edge of the sail, you have to place the foremost hinge ca. 30% from thr leading edge. If you swing the sail to much forward, the forward part of it will make an S around the mast. This may not be an catastrophe, but it is not the most efective shape, and it is not pretty.

                                            Victor
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: <pilger@...>
                                            To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 12:16 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs


                                            > On Wed, 21 February 2001, "Victor Winterthun" wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Another reason is that , with hinged battens, you can only have a small portion of the sail in front of the mast, and I would like to adjust that portion to suit me. A bigger portion when I am sailing off the wind.
                                            >
                                            > Victor:
                                            >
                                            > I am glad that you wrote this as I have never seen this objection to hinged battens before, and I think that it is a serious objection. One of the big advantages of a junk sail is the ability to take a standing gybe without losing a sail. This would be lost if there was little or no sail in front of the mast.
                                            >
                                            > I am not sure that I understand why the hinged battens prevent you from increasing the balance area of the sail. Could you please explain what why this is so.
                                            >
                                            > Don.
                                            >
                                            > Thanks,
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Don.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > __________________________________________________________
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                                          • Victor Winterthun
                                            Hi Paul. I am sure the software will work ok. With only one sail, the max. camber shoud be ca. 40% from the leading edge. Aluminium are a good material for
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Feb 22, 2001
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                                              Hi Paul.
                                              I am sure the software will work ok. With only one sail, the max. camber shoud be ca. 40% from the leading edge.
                                              Aluminium are a good material for battens because it is light, don't rot, and don't split if you make a hole close to an end. For my sail I used 35mm outside dia. and 2mm wallthickness. The sail is 280sq. ft.
                                              Socalled Pullthroughsions are made of an bundle of glassfibers in a matrix of poyester or epoxy. they can be solid or pipes. All reinforcement goes longitudinal. If you want a hole near one end, you have to make some additional reinforcement to prevent splitting. It behave like a pipe made of wood. Only a little stronger.
                                              Battens for a sail with cambered panels should be quite stiff, so that you don't get to much camber when it is blowing hard.

                                              Victor
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "Paul Liebenberg" <Zelda@...>
                                              To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 12:10 AM
                                              Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs


                                              > Victor,
                                              > When I make my sails, I plan on using the Sailcut software to
                                              > make the individually cambered panels, the Hinged battens seem like a lot of
                                              > work. I have read about Arne's method of making the panels and his sails
                                              > look great, however the cad program makes it easy and quick to make changes
                                              > to the sailplan as I see fit. I still haven't seen a sail made with the use
                                              > of the software, anty out there?
                                              > I notice most of the boats on your page use Aluminum for battens. Is this
                                              > an issue of material cost and availability or was this the best way to get a
                                              > sufficiently stiff batten?
                                              > I read with interest the articles in pbo, It seems that he does pull the
                                              > mast far forward for off the wind sailing. Any comment?
                                              > Thanks, Paul Liebenberg
                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > From: Victor Winterthun <victor@...>
                                              > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                                              > Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 4:04 AM
                                              > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > Hi Paul.
                                              > > I am now making a new sail for my boat. I will now try with camber in each
                                              > panel. My friend Arne Kverneland in Stavanger are using it with good
                                              > results. Another reason is that , with hinged battens, you can only have a
                                              > small portion of the sail in front of the mast, and I would like to adjust
                                              > that portion to suit me. A bigger portion when I am sailing off the wind.
                                              > > My sail is cut to 10% camber, but David Tyler use 6% in his new boat. See
                                              > PBO no.:405, 406, and 408. He say that wind tunnel tests at Exeter
                                              > University show that more than 6% is "not very productive". I think you can
                                              > safely use 8%. If I should make a new sail with hinged battens, I would see
                                              > to that the upper batten was not to cloce to the yard. I had to make my
                                              > upper batten without hinges because it was taking form of an S around the
                                              > mast when the wind came from the "sail side". You can see the sailplan for
                                              > IRIS on my home-page.
                                              > >
                                              > > Victor.
                                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > > From: "Paul Liebenberg" <Zelda@...>
                                              > > To: <junkrig@yahoogroups.com>
                                              > > Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 8:44 AM
                                              > > Subject: Re: [junkrig] Junk Riggs
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > > My own sail is made flat. By a mistake of the sailmaker. Therefore I
                                              > made
                                              > > > hinged battens. There are two hinges in each batten. Giving 10% fullness
                                              > in
                                              > > > even the lightest of wind, but never more. I have used this system for 7
                                              > > > years now, and it work without any problem.
                                              > > > > Another way to get fullness in a junksail, is to make each panel full.
                                              > > > Visit my homepage at:
                                              > > > > http://www.winterthun.net/victor
                                              > > > > And see junkrig with full panels. Sailing fast in light wind.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Victor
                                              > > > Victor, If you were sewing new sails, would you use hinges or sew camber
                                              > > > into separate panels? Also, has anyone made sails with Sailcut 8? If so,
                                              > how
                                              > > > did they turn out?
                                              > Paul
                                              > > > L
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                              > > >
                                              > > > www.
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              > > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              > > junkrig-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
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                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
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                                              >
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