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Re: David Tyler now has cambered panel sails?

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  • jhess314
    You can read some about the rationale for David s return to junk sails here. I, too, was surprised that he grew dissatisfied with his wing sails.
    Message 1 of 27 , Dec 3, 2012
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      You can read some about the rationale for David's return to junk sails here. I, too, was surprised that he grew dissatisfied with his wing sails.

      http://www.junkrigassociation.org/technical_forum?mode=MessageList&eid=833895

      http://www.junkrigassociation.org/technical_forum?mode=MessageList&eid=833895&mlpg=6#1048012

      http://www.junkrigassociation.org/technical_forum?mode=MessageList&eid=833895&mlpg=6#1048042

      --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, "lself100" <abarenicola@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Arne,
      > Did I read that right that David Tyler on Tystie has switched from wing sails to cambered panel sails?
      > robert self
      >
      > --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, "Arne Kverneland, Norway" <a-kve2@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Stavanger, Saturday
      >
      > > These days David Tyler is crossing the Pacific in his sloop-rigged Tystie, now with cambered panels. I am looking forward to hearing his reports and conclusions after the voyage.
      > >
      > > Arne
      >
    • lself100
      Thanks alot for the JRA refs. Max 4% camber for offshore is very rational. But a single 634 ft^2 (59m^2)sail is huge in an offshore environment. Makes one
      Message 2 of 27 , Dec 3, 2012
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        Thanks alot for the JRA refs.
        Max 4% camber for offshore is very rational. But a single 634 ft^2 (59m^2)sail is huge in an offshore environment. Makes one wonder if the ultimate for offshore is a gaff junk main of 300 ft^2 or so then split the 334 ft^2 remainder among headsails/topsail. Could the workload be less?

        --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" <j.hess@...> wrote:
        >
        > You can read some about the rationale for David's return to junk sails here. I, too, was surprised that he grew dissatisfied with his wing sails.
        >
        > http://www.junkrigassociation.org/technical_forum?mode=MessageList&eid=833895
        >
        > http://www.junkrigassociation.org/technical_forum?mode=MessageList&eid=833895&mlpg=6#1048012
        >
        > http://www.junkrigassociation.org/technical_forum?mode=MessageList&eid=833895&mlpg=6#1048042
        >
        > --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, "lself100" <abarenicola@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Arne,
        > > Did I read that right that David Tyler on Tystie has switched from wing sails to cambered panel sails?
        > > robert self
        > >
        > > --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, "Arne Kverneland, Norway" <a-kve2@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Stavanger, Saturday
        > >
        > > > These days David Tyler is crossing the Pacific in his sloop-rigged Tystie, now with cambered panels. I am looking forward to hearing his reports and conclusions after the voyage.
        > > >
        > > > Arne
        > >
        >
      • gary
        I don t know why David went for a single sail over say a schooner rig but it is a big sail. He seems to have it behaving nicely though. Gary
        Message 3 of 27 , Dec 3, 2012
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          I don't know why David went for a single sail over say a schooner rig
          but it is a big sail. He seems to have it behaving nicely though.
          Gary


          On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 19:33 +0000, lself100 wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > Thanks alot for the JRA refs.
          > Max 4% camber for offshore is very rational. But a single 634 ft^2
          > (59m^2)sail is huge in an offshore environment. Makes one wonder if
          > the ultimate for offshore is a gaff junk main of 300 ft^2 or so then
          > split the 334 ft^2 remainder among headsails/topsail. Could the
          > workload be less?
          >
          > --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" <j.hess@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > You can read some about the rationale for David's return to junk
          > sails here. I, too, was surprised that he grew dissatisfied with his
          > wing sails.
          > >
          > >
          > http://www.junkrigassociation.org/technical_forum?mode=MessageList&eid=833895
          > >
          > >
          > http://www.junkrigassociation.org/technical_forum?mode=MessageList&eid=833895&mlpg=6#1048012
          > >
          > >
          > http://www.junkrigassociation.org/technical_forum?mode=MessageList&eid=833895&mlpg=6#1048042
          > >
          > > --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, "lself100" <abarenicola@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Hi Arne,
          > > > Did I read that right that David Tyler on Tystie has switched from
          > wing sails to cambered panel sails?
          > > > robert self
          > > >
          > > > --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, "Arne Kverneland, Norway"
          > <a-kve2@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Stavanger, Saturday
          > > >
          > > > > These days David Tyler is crossing the Pacific in his
          > sloop-rigged Tystie, now with cambered panels. I am looking forward to
          > hearing his reports and conclusions after the voyage.
          > > > >
          > > > > Arne
          > > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • southcoveemail
          ... I would be interested to find in one document the pro and cons of the different cambering methods with different shapes of sails. Thierry
          Message 4 of 27 , Dec 9, 2012
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            --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, "ewisn" <eawisner@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > I think it time that folks examine the different cambering methods. Tari Tari has a very slight camber to her sails and does very well in light winds that keep others in port.

            I would be interested to find in one document the pro and cons of the different cambering methods with different shapes of sails.

            Thierry
          • Slieve
            Hi Thierry You wrote I would be interested to find in one document the pro and cons of the different cambering methods with different shapes of sails. I
            Message 5 of 27 , Dec 10, 2012
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              Hi Thierry
              You wrote "I would be interested to find in one document the pro and cons of the different cambering methods with different shapes of sails."

              I suggest you look in -

              http://junkrigassociation.org/slieve

              and select -

              C and SJ P1-22 12-03-17c.pdf

              Chapter 3, starting page 11, gives some information on the construction of cambered panels. These notes are still only in draft form, but you might find them useful.

              Cheers,
              Slieve

              From: southcoveemail
              To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, December 10, 2012 2:29 AM
              Subject: [junkrig] Cambering methods

              --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, "ewisn" <eawisner@...> wrote:
              >
              > I think it time that folks examine the different cambering methods. Tari Tari has a very slight camber to her sails and does very well in light winds that keep others in port.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Andres Espino
              I would be interested in that also. Arne s chain calculation method it good when constructing individual panels, but for proplr eho make large one piece (like
              Message 6 of 27 , Dec 10, 2012
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                I would be interested in that also.

                Arne's chain calculation method it good when constructing individual panels, but for proplr eho make large one piece (like polytarp) sails, most people rely on inserting 'darts' the way tailors add to garments.  This is the method used in adding camber to the polytarp sail in the Duckworks article

                http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/howto/junkrig/index.htm


                For those unfamiliar with 'sarts' the explanation is about mid page.

                My last close to junk attempt was to add lazyjacks and full battens to my Gaff mainsail in an approximation of Bolger's Chinese Gaffsail.  I do not know how much camber I had to start with but I left it as it was and did not insert added darts.  It sailed poorly to windward to start with, and 50 degree tacks were usual.  I never could sail well at the 45 legs of my windex.  After adding the rigid battens to the mainsail, I noticed no real significant difference and it sailed no worse and was far easier to reef.  I would do it to another gaffer.


                Andrew


                ________________________________
                From: southcoveemail <thierry.msika@...>
                To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2012 7:29 PM
                Subject: [junkrig] Cambering methods


                 


                --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, "ewisn" <eawisner@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > I think it time that folks examine the different cambering methods. Tari Tari has a very slight camber to her sails and does very well in light winds that keep others in port.

                I would be interested to find in one document the pro and cons of the different cambering methods with different shapes of sails.

                Thierry




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Andres Espino
                please excuse my typos in that post... I seem to be typing badly this morning. Andrew [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Message 7 of 27 , Dec 10, 2012
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                  please excuse my typos in that post... I seem to be typing badly this morning.

                  Andrew

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • gary
                  We all have days like that Andrew.:) Gary
                  Message 8 of 27 , Dec 10, 2012
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                    We all have days like that Andrew.:)
                    Gary


                    On Mon, 2012-12-10 at 09:34 -0800, Andres Espino wrote:
                    >
                    > please excuse my typos in that post... I seem to be typing badly this
                    > morning.
                    >
                    > Andrew
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Thierry Msika
                    Slieve, Thanks for the link. you write: fanned battens, wishbone battens as well as stiff battens with the camber built into the sail material. Aren t fanned
                    Message 9 of 27 , Dec 11, 2012
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                      Slieve,

                      Thanks for the link.

                      you write:
                      "fanned battens, wishbone battens as well as stiff battens with the camber
                      built
                      into the sail material."

                      Aren't fanned battens stiff too?

                      You write
                      "desirable to run the threads parallel to discourage stretching of
                      the sail just forward of the tight load supporting leech and forming a
                      cupped leech"

                      Isn't the boltrope or tape juste there to prevent cupping of the leech?
                      What about a leech line if there is no boltrope?

                      I am looking at converting a Shark 24 (I still have to find a suitable
                      one). I want a performing sail to go to windward and if possible I want it
                      to perform as well as the original bermudan rig. The Shark is a long and
                      lean boat and I should have plenty of room aft for sheeting. Look at the
                      profile on http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=44.
                      I like the look of the fanned sail, especially on Tystie and Fantail but I
                      want to be able to compare. I am reading as much as I can from the
                      association and the group.

                      Apparently fanning the battens bring some camber through twist but not
                      enough so that camber has to be sewn into the lower panels.I suppose the
                      upper panels don't need camber.
                      What I need is the pros and cons of the fanned sail vs the Hasler high
                      aspect sail.

                      I am still struggling with the jargon.

                      Cheers

                      Thierry


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Slieve
                      Hi Thierry Yes, fanned sails may or may not have stiff battens. I am simply trying to point out that there are other methods of producing camber but that in my
                      Message 10 of 27 , Dec 11, 2012
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                        Hi Thierry
                        Yes, fanned sails may or may not have stiff battens. I am simply trying to point out that there are other methods of producing camber but that in my write up I am concentrating on stiff battens and cambered panels, along with the split rig concept, as I personally feel these give the best compromise.

                        A bolt rope or tape will not necessarily prevent a cupped leech, and a badly adjusted leech line can induce a cup. The important action is to make sure that the sail does not stretch just inside the leech tape which can produce the 'cup' so it is desirable to arrange the threadlines parallel to the leech. It is standard sail making practice. On Poppy I built adjustable leech-lines into each panel of both main panels and jibs.

                        The Shark 24 could be a fun boat to sail, but it seems to have a fairly low ballast ratio and high SA/ Disp ratio, so could be quite tender if fitted with a very efficient rig. It probably needs an active crew to assist the stability.

                        I am not a fan of fanned sails, as I feel they are high stress rigs that require multiple adjustments. Similarly, I am not a fan of the other types of cambered sails though the stiff batten/ cambered panel sails are very good if set up properly. The split rig was designed to be as low stressed and simple to sail as possible, and seems to have achieved that aim. I am not keen to discuss the merits of the various rigs, as each one has its dedicated followers, but enough to say that I am extremely happy with my split rig, and those who have sailed it also seem to be impressed. It seems to out perform the original Bermudan rig on all points of sail, and we hope to verify this in the not to distant future on boats with identical hulls and similar sail areas.

                        Good luck on you quest for a comparison of fanned and other cambered rigs. It is unlikely that you will find a direct comparison anywhere, as you will have to match hulls, convenience, ease of sailing, durability and other points.

                        Cheers
                        Slieve

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Thierry Msika
                        To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 6:04 PM
                        Subject: [junkrig] Re: Cambering methods



                        Slieve,

                        Thanks for the link.

                        you write:
                        "fanned battens, wishbone battens as well as stiff battens with the camber
                        built
                        into the sail material."

                        Aren't fanned battens stiff too?

                        You write
                        "desirable to run the threads parallel to discourage stretching of
                        the sail just forward of the tight load supporting leech and forming a
                        cupped leech"

                        Isn't the boltrope or tape juste there to prevent cupping of the leech?
                        What about a leech line if there is no boltrope?

                        I am looking at converting a Shark 24 (I still have to find a suitable
                        one). I want a performing sail to go to windward and if possible I want it
                        to perform as well as the original bermudan rig. The Shark is a long and
                        lean boat and I should have plenty of room aft for sheeting. Look at the
                        profile on http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=44.
                        I like the look of the fanned sail, especially on Tystie and Fantail but I
                        want to be able to compare. I am reading as much as I can from the
                        association and the group.

                        Apparently fanning the battens bring some camber through twist but not
                        enough so that camber has to be sewn into the lower panels.I suppose the
                        upper panels don't need camber.
                        What I need is the pros and cons of the fanned sail vs the Hasler high
                        aspect sail.

                        I am still struggling with the jargon.

                        Cheers

                        Thierry

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                      • southcoveemail
                        Hi Slieve, if you allow me I won t let you go now! You ll have to explain to me (or give me a reference) why the split rig is low stress or/and conversely why
                        Message 11 of 27 , Dec 12, 2012
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                          Hi Slieve,

                          if you allow me I won't let you go now! You'll have to explain to me (or give me a reference) why the split rig is low stress or/and conversely why the fanned sails are higher stress.

                          Thank you for your views about the Shark. I must say that this boat has crossed the Atlantic several times and the Pacific at least once and that it has been single-handed offshore though I understand that this is anecdoctal and no proof of anything.

                          I haven't set my mind on any junkrig design. I sail a Nordica 16 (14.5' LOA) http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4034 that I am thinking of replacing with a Shark 24 because I like racing and the Nordica doesn't always keep up with the local fleet.
                          There is a possibility that I keep the Nordica 16 to use as a platform to try a junkrig and delay the replacement of the hull.

                          I also cruise on an engineless gaff rigged Wylo II 35' centerboarder with tabernacled mast that I would like one day to convert to junk though I am not too keen on going to a schooner rig.
                          I would like to explore the possibility of keeping the cutter rig and use only a junk mainsail, the total area of 66m² being probably too big for a single sail, or is it?

                          Cheers

                          Thierry
                        • Slieve
                          Hi Thierry You say, If you allow me I won t let you go now! The answer is that I will not allow you. Sailing, and rig design is only a small part of my
                          Message 12 of 27 , Dec 12, 2012
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                            Hi Thierry

                            You say, "If you allow me I won't let you go now!" The answer is that I will not allow you. Sailing, and rig design is only a small part of my fairly busy life.



                            If you read my notes you will see that I recommend making a string and batten model of the rig, and if you do you will learn a lot. The same goes for fanned rigs. With 35+% balance the split rig is nearly a square rig, and it hangs naturally from the yard with a simple downhaul. That is how I shaped the luff and leech curves to have minimum forces. Try that with a fanned sail and I think you'll find you need a lot more pulling and heavier loads to get it into shape. I often sail by simply hoisting the sail on the halyard and just trimming the sheet. Nothing else.



                            The split rig seems to be a good junk rig for racing. I've just been told that one boat has had a 5% change in its handicap as it was either first or second in its races this past season and won the series. With its previous junk rig it was always at the other end of the fleet with the same handicap. Read the AYRS Catalyst report in my pages of the JRA website to get some idea of how the split junk gets on in coastal racing. We now have experience of sailing against similarly rated spinnaker boats and find that we match them for speed simply by squaring the rig off to 90°. When it's too windy for them to fly their chutes we can still carry full sail area down wind, which can be quite exciting, but quite controllable as we leave them behind.



                            I plan to update my notes this winter with the information gained from others who have built the split rig and sailed and raced with it. If you are interested in the rig you should be able to work from the notes.



                            Cheers

                            Slieve



                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 7:25 PM
                            Subject: [junkrig] Re: Cambering methods

                            Hi Slieve,

                            if you allow me I won't let you go now! You'll have to explain to me (or give me a reference) why the split rig is low stress or/and conversely why the fanned sails are higher stress.

                            Thank you for your views ..........................

                            Cheers

                            Thierry


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • southcoveemail
                            ... I understand very well... ... I understand that too. ... Any sort of write-up to learn about that boat? ... I did read the article, it is exciting! ... I
                            Message 13 of 27 , Dec 12, 2012
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                              >
                              > You say, "If you allow me I won't let you go now!" The answer is that I will not allow you. Sailing, and rig design is only a small part of my fairly busy life.
                              >

                              I understand very well...


                              > If you read my notes you will see that I recommend making a string and batten model of the rig, and if you do you will learn a lot. The same goes for fanned rigs. With 35+% balance the split rig is nearly a square rig, and it hangs naturally from the yard with a simple downhaul. That is how I shaped the luff and leech curves to have minimum forces. Try that with a fanned sail and I think you'll find you need a lot more pulling and heavier loads to get it into shape. I often sail by simply hoisting the sail on the halyard and just trimming the sheet. Nothing else.

                              I understand that too.


                              > The split rig seems to be a good junk rig for racing. I've just been told that one boat has had a 5% change in its handicap as it was either first or second in its races this past season and won the series. With its previous junk rig it was always at the other end of the fleet with the same handicap.

                              Any sort of write-up to learn about that boat?

                              > Read the AYRS Catalyst report in my pages of the JRA website to get some idea of how the split junk gets on in coastal racing. We now have experience of sailing against similarly rated spinnaker boats and find that we match them for speed simply by squaring the rig off to 90°. When it's too windy for them to fly their chutes we can still carry full sail area down wind, which can be quite exciting, but quite controllable as we leave them behind.
                              >

                              I did read the article, it is exciting!
                              >
                              >
                              > I plan to update my notes this winter with the information gained from others who have built the split rig and sailed and raced with it. If you are interested in the rig you should be able to work from the notes.
                              >

                              I am very interested. Thanks for your time, patience and dedication.

                              Cheers

                              Thierry, Lunenburg, NS
                            • Slieve
                              Thierry, You wrote - Any sort of write-up to learn about that boat? Frank s boat is about 33 feet long dory style. He says it s a stretched Mouette, which is
                              Message 14 of 27 , Dec 14, 2012
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                                Thierry, You wrote -
                                "Any sort of write-up to learn about that boat?"

                                Frank's boat is about 33 feet long dory style. He says it's a stretched Mouette, which is the design of 'Erik the Red', but it's not the same. This boat is a double ender with an inset rudder. Built of steel, it has bilge keels, made of flat steel plates with oxygen cylinders filled with lead welded onto the bottom of the plates.
                                It is not a racer by any means, but the rig makes it as fast as the hull will go. With a displacement speed of just under 7 knots he has tried to push it to 10 knots down wind, which is litterly pushing it.

                                Sailing the split junk brings out the worst in you. With high lift and low drag it is easy to 'over drive' it as it remains remarkably controllable when other rigs would be becoming risky. It is so easy to dump the sheet, or even the halyard that you just want to keep going and overtaking the opposition.

                                This rig seems to fit any hull.
                                Cheers
                                Slieve

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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