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Re: Hoping to say hello to Arne.

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  • Arne Kverneland, Norway
    Stavanger, Thu Greg, welcome to this group. I see you have struggled a bit to get through, but you soon get the hang of it. Right above this text you will see
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 1, 2011
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      Stavanger, Thu

      Greg,
      welcome to this group. I see you have struggled a bit to get through, but you soon get the hang of it. Right above this text you will see two ways of searching.
      One lets you just enter the number of a message (posting) and up it pops.
      The other one, if you choose the advanced mode lets you search on key-words; a sort of simple googling through all the messages since 2000.

      You ask about the cambered sail's performance relative to a flat sail. In the first boat, my 23' Albin Viggen, Malena, I tried "everything".
      On that rig I would say that the cambered sail went about 5° closer to the wind in a good breeze and some 10° in light winds where the flat sails really suffer.
      The cambered sail is generally more powerful on all legs except straight downwind where this sail too will be stalled.

      Compared to a sister boat with a Bermuda rig I guess a boat with a JR with plenty of area and some camber will be only very slightly slower close-hauled. It depends on how good the helmsmen are. Reaching and running the JR will be faster.

      I don't have much offshore experience, but what I have indicates that one cannot sail that close with any rig in a seaway, but the added drive in the cambered sails will no doubt be very helpful in getting you over the waves, so the resulting progress to windward will be better with camber.

      If I were to rig a Benford dory a la Badger to go offshore, I would rig it with the same masts as they have today and with very similar sails too. Being a bit under-rigged, I would add a lot of camber; 10% in the horizontal panels of the foresail and 8% in the main. The 3 top panels would be made successively flatter but even the top panels would have a bit camber. I have found that the 3-panel top sections of my present boats (Johanna, 29' and Broremann, 18') are very useful, both for slow manoeuvring and for handling strong winds.

      But this could easily be one-eyed bragging from my side.
      I suggest you take a look at older messages written by people who have participated in JR rallies in Stavanger:
      Message 5314 by Juergen Mueller in Aug 2004
      Message 5321 by Matti Palm in Aug 2004
      Message 8161 bu Richard Gardner in Aug 2006

      Cheers,
      Arne




      --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, Greg Krivonak <svwillowgreg@...> wrote:
      >
      > Evening to all.  Just signed up here and it seems I need to make it past the "moderator." I am rather poor at online work, so, hope I get it right here and will keep it short. I have built and been cruising on a Benford 34" "Badger." the past 10 years.  Have sailed well over 20,000 miles and want to learn what others have experimented with.  Have been hired to build the 37' 6" version beginning in a few weeks.  The owner is very willing and excited to try out any of my ideas I think useful as well as all other ideas that may help promote and improve this type of rig.  One thing I am interested in is the cambered panels. Don't get me wrong, we have sailed "Willow" on some very tough windward ocean passages and done just fine. I simply like to learn and try new things.  I found a few things Arne ? (sorry, forgot the last name) has put out here and like the idea of if very much.  So, that said, hope you will let me learn from all of you and perhaps I
      > will have a thought or two that will be helpful in return. 
      >  
      > Greg Krivonak
      > www.svwillow.net  (my travel blog)
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • alan Martienssen
      Hi Arnie and Greg,I ve been in contact with Wild Fox,a 37ft Badger and he has had problems with breaking battens with the cambered panels, something to do with
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 3, 2011
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        Hi Arnie and Greg,I ve been in contact with Wild Fox,a 37ft Badger and he has had problems with breaking battens with the cambered panels, something to do with the Hong Kong parrels putting strain on the battens. Zebedee s sails are still in too good condition but at some point I  hope to change to cambered panels and I wondered about these breakages. Are aluminium battens necessary?I have sitka spruce at the moment.Zebedee used to break alot of battens, always starting with the top sheeted batten on the foresail. I changed this to a thickened laminated sitka spruce 4 yrs ago and have had no breakages since including some severe sudden squalls in the South China Sea.

        --- On Thu, 1/9/11, Arne Kverneland, Norway <arkverne@...> wrote:


        From: Arne Kverneland, Norway <arkverne@...>
        Subject: [junkrig] Re: Hoping to say hello to Arne.
        To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, 1 September, 2011, 9:39


         



        Stavanger, Thu

        Greg,
        welcome to this group. I see you have struggled a bit to get through, but you soon get the hang of it. Right above this text you will see two ways of searching.
        One lets you just enter the number of a message (posting) and up it pops.
        The other one, if you choose the advanced mode lets you search on key-words; a sort of simple googling through all the messages since 2000.

        You ask about the cambered sail's performance relative to a flat sail. In the first boat, my 23' Albin Viggen, Malena, I tried "everything".
        On that rig I would say that the cambered sail went about 5° closer to the wind in a good breeze and some 10° in light winds where the flat sails really suffer.
        The cambered sail is generally more powerful on all legs except straight downwind where this sail too will be stalled.

        Compared to a sister boat with a Bermuda rig I guess a boat with a JR with plenty of area and some camber will be only very slightly slower close-hauled. It depends on how good the helmsmen are. Reaching and running the JR will be faster.

        I don't have much offshore experience, but what I have indicates that one cannot sail that close with any rig in a seaway, but the added drive in the cambered sails will no doubt be very helpful in getting you over the waves, so the resulting progress to windward will be better with camber.

        If I were to rig a Benford dory a la Badger to go offshore, I would rig it with the same masts as they have today and with very similar sails too. Being a bit under-rigged, I would add a lot of camber; 10% in the horizontal panels of the foresail and 8% in the main. The 3 top panels would be made successively flatter but even the top panels would have a bit camber. I have found that the 3-panel top sections of my present boats (Johanna, 29' and Broremann, 18') are very useful, both for slow manoeuvring and for handling strong winds.

        But this could easily be one-eyed bragging from my side.
        I suggest you take a look at older messages written by people who have participated in JR rallies in Stavanger:
        Message 5314 by Juergen Mueller in Aug 2004
        Message 5321 by Matti Palm in Aug 2004
        Message 8161 bu Richard Gardner in Aug 2006

        Cheers,
        Arne

        --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, Greg Krivonak <svwillowgreg@...> wrote:
        >
        > Evening to all.  Just signed up here and it seems I need to make it past the "moderator." I am rather poor at online work, so, hope I get it right here and will keep it short. I have built and been cruising on a Benford 34" "Badger." the past 10 years.  Have sailed well over 20,000 miles and want to learn what others have experimented with.  Have been hired to build the 37' 6" version beginning in a few weeks.  The owner is very willing and excited to try out any of my ideas I think useful as well as all other ideas that may help promote and improve this type of rig.  One thing I am interested in is the cambered panels. Don't get me wrong, we have sailed "Willow" on some very tough windward ocean passages and done just fine. I simply like to learn and try new things.  I found a few things Arne ? (sorry, forgot the last name) has put out here and like the idea of if very much.  So, that said, hope you will let me learn from all of you and perhaps
        I
        > will have a thought or two that will be helpful in return. 
        >  
        > Greg Krivonak
        > www.svwillow.net  (my travel blog)
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Arne Kverneland, Norway
        Stavanger, Sat Alan I have never used wooden battens on my junk rigs, only aluminium or for a short period, bamboo. These are quite a bit more flexible and can
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 3, 2011
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          Stavanger, Sat

          Alan
          I have never used wooden battens on my junk rigs, only aluminium or for a short period, bamboo. These are quite a bit more flexible and can take up some shock-loads without breaking.

          As for extra stress caused by the Hong Kong parrels I am not sure, but I guess one should not make each panel too tall (big batten distance) or the HK parrels will have to be attached far aft to avoid using a steep angle. Attaching the HK-parrel far aft will increase the stress on the battens. Anyway, normally, on my boats, it seems that the sheets put more stress on the battens than the HK parrels.

          I guess, if I were to fit new sails to a Benford Badger-style boat, I would divide the parallel panels section into one more panels. This would lower the strain on each panel and battens, and the HK parrels could be made shorter and thus not distort the camber that far aft. The forces on the HK parrels would of course also be reduced. The wight of another batten is not a high price to pay. "Badger" herself has 4 lower panels now, but I think 5 (plus 2-3 top panels) would be better when using cambered panels.

          Arne




          --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, alan Martienssen <sv_zebedee@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Arnie and Greg,I ve been in contact with Wild Fox,a 37ft Badger and he has had problems with breaking battens with the cambered panels, something to do with the Hong Kong parrels putting strain on the battens. Zebedee s sails are still in too good condition but at some point I  hope to change to cambered panels and I wondered about these breakages. Are aluminium battens necessary?I have sitka spruce at the moment.Zebedee used to break alot of battens, always starting with the top sheeted batten on the foresail. I changed this to a thickened laminated sitka spruce 4 yrs ago and have had no breakages since including some severe sudden squalls in the South China Sea.
        • Mike Allison
          Maybe we should start a database of rig info. Say one that would list the area of the sail, number of battom panels, top panels, numbet and size of battens,
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 3, 2011
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            Maybe we should start a database of rig info.
            Say one that would list the area of the sail, number of battom panels, top panels,
            numbet and size of battens, batten material, size of the yard, yard material,
            if from a boat with more than one mast - which sail it is,
            size of the mast it is on, type of mast - solid or hollow wood or what ever,
            type and size of the boat, name of the boat it is on, and an optional e-mail to the rig owner.

            With this info all in one list or location, it would make it easier for someone thinking
            of building a new rig to deside on a starting point for their rig.

            This could be a database or a directory with text files for each sail.




            Mike Allison...

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Arne Kverneland, Norway
            Stavanger, Sat Mike, That was the best idea I ve seen for a long time! There is already a lot of data spread around in the files section, but this database
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 3, 2011
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              Stavanger, Sat

              Mike,
              That was the best idea I've seen for a long time! There is already a lot of data spread around in the files section, but this database would make it much easier to find what you need. Just for fun I just created a folder in the Files Section, called "1. Junk Rig Database". The digit "1" in front of it will ensure that the folder is put on top in the section and thus be easy to find.

              The problem is access. As it is now, I guess only I will have access to it unless we can make the Moderator open it for all the members. The best would be if the members could create their own folders and edit its content but not be able to edit others' stuff, but that may not be so important. The main thing is so give every member access.

              I would suggest that everyone name their folder(s) with
              Boatname, Boat type, Owner's name or designer.
              Ex: "Johanna, Alo28, Arne Kverneland"

              Sooo, my question goes to the Moderator:
              Could you open the folder named "1. Junk Rig Database" so everyone can get access to it?

              Arne



              --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Allison" <mysloop@...> wrote:
              >
              > Maybe we should start a database of rig info.
              > Say one that would list the area of the sail, number of battom panels, top panels,
              > numbet and size of battens, batten material, size of the yard, yard material,
              > if from a boat with more than one mast - which sail it is,
              > size of the mast it is on, type of mast - solid or hollow wood or what ever,
              > type and size of the boat, name of the boat it is on, and an optional e-mail to the rig owner.
              >
              > With this info all in one list or location, it would make it easier for someone thinking
              > of building a new rig to deside on a starting point for their rig.
              >
              > This could be a database or a directory with text files for each sail.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Mike Allison...
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Arne Kverneland, Norway
              Stavanger, Sat Hi again! I made a test now and it appears that I can add files or folders under any of the existing folders in the files section: I can also
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 3, 2011
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                Stavanger, Sat
                Hi again!
                I made a test now and it appears that I can add files or folders under any of the existing folders in the files section: I can also edit and delete them but not other members' files. This is just as it should be
                Conclusion:

                That folder "1. Junk Rig Database" is just waiting for your inputs, be "my" guest :-) !!

                Arne



                --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, "Arne Kverneland, Norway" <arkverne@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Stavanger, Sat
                >
                > Mike,
                > That was the best idea I've seen for a long time! There is already a lot of data spread around in the files section, but this database would make it much easier to find what you need. Just for fun I just created a folder in the Files Section, called "1. Junk Rig Database". The digit "1" in front of it will ensure that the folder is put on top in the section and thus be easy to find.
                >
                > The problem is access. As it is now, I guess only I will have access to it unless we can make the Moderator open it for all the members. The best would be if the members could create their own folders and edit its content but not be able to edit others' stuff, but that may not be so important. The main thing is so give every member access.
                >
                > I would suggest that everyone name their folder(s) with
                > Boatname, Boat type, Owner's name or designer.
                > Ex: "Johanna, Alo28, Arne Kverneland"
                >
                > Sooo, my question goes to the Moderator:
                > Could you open the folder named "1. Junk Rig Database" so everyone can get access to it?
                >
                > Arne
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Allison" <mysloop@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Maybe we should start a database of rig info.
                > > Say one that would list the area of the sail, number of battom panels, top panels,
                > > numbet and size of battens, batten material, size of the yard, yard material,
                > > if from a boat with more than one mast - which sail it is,
                > > size of the mast it is on, type of mast - solid or hollow wood or what ever,
                > > type and size of the boat, name of the boat it is on, and an optional e-mail to the rig owner.
                > >
                > > With this info all in one list or location, it would make it easier for someone thinking
                > > of building a new rig to deside on a starting point for their rig.
                > >
                > > This could be a database or a directory with text files for each sail.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Mike Allison...
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
              • Mike Allison
                Or all the data could be sent to one person to update the database/files. If using files for it, I think your naming system would be a good one. If needed I d
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 3, 2011
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                  Or all the data could be sent to one person to update the database/files.
                  If using files for it, I think your naming system would be a good one.

                  If needed I'd be willing to help key in and format files for this.

                  Mike Allison...
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Arne Kverneland, Norway
                  To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 5:41 AM
                  Subject: [junkrig] Re: Junk Rig Database, question to the Moderator




                  Stavanger, Sat

                  Mike,
                  That was the best idea I've seen for a long time! There is already a lot of data spread around in the files section, but this database would make it much easier to find what you need. Just for fun I just created a folder in the Files Section, called "1. Junk Rig Database". The digit "1" in front of it will ensure that the folder is put on top in the section and thus be easy to find.

                  The problem is access. As it is now, I guess only I will have access to it unless we can make the Moderator open it for all the members. The best would be if the members could create their own folders and edit its content but not be able to edit others' stuff, but that may not be so important. The main thing is so give every member access.

                  I would suggest that everyone name their folder(s) with
                  Boatname, Boat type, Owner's name or designer.
                  Ex: "Johanna, Alo28, Arne Kverneland"

                  Sooo, my question goes to the Moderator:
                  Could you open the folder named "1. Junk Rig Database" so everyone can get access to it?

                  Arne



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Mike Allison
                  Maybe we should have a Blank Record file for users to file out to help keep all the info in the same basic format. Mike Allison... [Non-text portions of this
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 3, 2011
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                    Maybe we should have a Blank Record file for users to file out to help keep all the info
                    in the same basic format.

                    Mike Allison...

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • alan Martienssen
                    Hi Arnie,many thanks for the ideas. Am I right that you dont have a down haul,just the yard hauling parrel,mast parrels,hong kong parrels and a luff hauling
                    Message 9 of 16 , Sep 3, 2011
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                      Hi Arnie,many thanks for the ideas. Am I right that you dont have a down haul,just the yard hauling parrel,mast parrels,hong kong parrels and a luff hauling parrel to the top 3 battens?When I come to replace Zebedee s sails I think I will increase the number of panels, as you suggest. All the best  Alan               
                       
                      --- On Sat, 3/9/11, Arne Kverneland, Norway <arkverne@...> wrote:


                      From: Arne Kverneland, Norway <arkverne@...>
                      Subject: [junkrig] Re: Hoping to say hello to Arne. About Hong Kong Parrels
                      To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Saturday, 3 September, 2011, 9:52


                       



                      Stavanger, Sat

                      Alan
                      I have never used wooden battens on my junk rigs, only aluminium or for a short period, bamboo. These are quite a bit more flexible and can take up some shock-loads without breaking.

                      As for extra stress caused by the Hong Kong parrels I am not sure, but I guess one should not make each panel too tall (big batten distance) or the HK parrels will have to be attached far aft to avoid using a steep angle. Attaching the HK-parrel far aft will increase the stress on the battens. Anyway, normally, on my boats, it seems that the sheets put more stress on the battens than the HK parrels.

                      I guess, if I were to fit new sails to a Benford Badger-style boat, I would divide the parallel panels section into one more panels. This would lower the strain on each panel and battens, and the HK parrels could be made shorter and thus not distort the camber that far aft. The forces on the HK parrels would of course also be reduced. The wight of another batten is not a high price to pay. "Badger" herself has 4 lower panels now, but I think 5 (plus 2-3 top panels) would be better when using cambered panels.

                      Arne

                      --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, alan Martienssen <sv_zebedee@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Arnie and Greg,I ve been in contact with Wild Fox,a 37ft Badger and he has had problems with breaking battens with the cambered panels, something to do with the Hong Kong parrels putting strain on the battens. Zebedee s sails are still in too good condition but at some point I  hope to change to cambered panels and I wondered about these breakages. Are aluminium battens necessary?I have sitka spruce at the moment.Zebedee used to break alot of battens, always starting with the top sheeted batten on the foresail. I changed this to a thickened laminated sitka spruce 4 yrs ago and have had no breakages since including some severe sudden squalls in the South China Sea.








                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Arne Kverneland, Norway
                      Mike No, I think we should be free to use the formats we prefer. After all this is an open group with no bosses (fortunately...). I would just recommend that
                      Message 10 of 16 , Sep 3, 2011
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                        Mike
                        No, I think we should be free to use the formats we prefer. After all this is an open group with no bosses (fortunately...).
                        I would just recommend that everyone use fairly common file formats like doc, pdf, jpg etc. I guess "Database" also includes sailplans, so plain text is not good enough.

                        Arne

                        --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Allison" <mysloop@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Maybe we should have a Blank Record file for users to file out to help keep all the info
                        > in the same basic format.
                        >
                        > Mike Allison...
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Mike Allison
                        Had not looked at it from that point. But now I have to agree with you on that. I guess if we did have any type of base file, it would just be a list of some
                        Message 11 of 16 , Sep 3, 2011
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                          Had not looked at it from that point. But now I have to agree with you on that.
                          I guess if we did have any type of base file, it would just be a list of some of the things that should/could be included.

                          I guess we could have a data file for the boat, and if there is a sail plan drawing/photo a plan file for it.
                          If posted say as a PDF, then one file could have all the info for that rig, Data and Plan.

                          The main thing is to have one place where users could find the specs for many boats.
                          Then they could go down the list and find a boat that is like or close to their boat and have a good starting place.


                          Mike Allison...
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Arne Kverneland, Norway
                          To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 6:21 AM
                          Subject: [junkrig] Re: Junk Rig Database, moderator's help not needed; it works at it is!




                          Mike
                          No, I think we should be free to use the formats we prefer. After all this is an open group with no bosses (fortunately...).
                          I would just recommend that everyone use fairly common file formats like doc, pdf, jpg etc. I guess "Database" also includes sailplans, so plain text is not good enough.

                          Arne

                          --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Allison" <mysloop@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Maybe we should have a Blank Record file for users to file out to help keep all the info
                          > in the same basic format.
                          >
                          > Mike Allison...
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Arne Kverneland, Norway
                          Stavanger, Sat Alan Until very recently I haven t used downhauls on any of my junkrigs. This is partly because I didn feel the need for them and partly
                          Message 12 of 16 , Sep 3, 2011
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                            Stavanger, Sat

                            Alan
                            Until very recently I haven't used downhauls on any of my junkrigs. This is partly because I didn' feel the need for them and partly because I didn't want to cut another opening in the batten pockets.
                            However, recently it dawned to me that the downhauls may just as well be attached to the batten parrels. On my dinghy Broremann I did this simple experiment:
                            The (elastic) tackline was fitted with a hook which with full sail hoisted was hooked to the boom (as before).
                            When the sail was reefed, I just moved that hook to the batten parrel of the lowered batten and could thus stretch the luff to a nice setting even on the lowest panel.
                            The forces needed in the downhaul is very light; it is the ("upper") luff hauling parrel that takes most of the load.

                            Johanna's and Broremann's sails are very dissimilar, not only in size:
                            Both have 7 panels, but on Johanna the AR=1.87 while on Broremann it is 2.15. The relative batten distance on Broremann thus gets higher so a light tug in a downhaul makes sense here.

                            Handling the two sail are also dissimilar:
                            Broremann's sail is very forgiving when it comes to setting up the luff- and yard hauling parrels. I often drop a panel or 3 with load in the sail.
                            When reefing Johannas' sail, I must first let the sheet go, then reef, then set up the running parrels carefully before sheeting in the sail again or the yard will be hauled aft or down. Johanna's sail was a compromise to fit the boat so I guess it is close to the lower end of the AR scale.

                            Arne

                            PS: Yes, I still only have 4 running lines in Johanna's rig:
                            Sheet(3-part), halyard(5-part), Yard h. parrel and Luff hauling parrel working on the yard and batten no. 3.



                            --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, alan Martienssen <sv_zebedee@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Arnie,many thanks for the ideas. Am I right that you dont have a down haul,just the yard hauling parrel,mast parrels,hong kong parrels and a luff hauling parrel to the top 3 battens?When I come to replace Zebedee s sails I think I will increase the number of panels, as you suggest. All the best Alan
                          • Mike Allison
                            Arne, That works great! Now if more users will list the specs on their rig also. Sure makes it nice to find all the specs of a rig in one place! Mike
                            Message 13 of 16 , Sep 4, 2011
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                              Arne,

                              That works great!
                              Now if more users will list the specs on their rig also.
                              Sure makes it nice to find all the specs of a rig in one place!

                              Mike Allison...

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • gary
                              I ll add mine soon, just have to pull my finger out and do it. Gary
                              Message 14 of 16 , Sep 6, 2011
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                                I'll add mine soon, just have to pull my finger out and do it.
                                Gary


                                On Sun, 2011-09-04 at 09:06 -0500, Mike Allison wrote:
                                >
                                > Arne,
                                >
                                > That works great!
                                > Now if more users will list the specs on their rig also.
                                > Sure makes it nice to find all the specs of a rig in one place!
                                >
                                > Mike Allison...
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
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