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Re: Weather Helm and Downwind sailing

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  • paulfay2@btinternet.com
    Hi Martin, Our boat, Ti Gitu is 40ft with two masts and we found that when running, even with only the forward sail hoisted, we needed to set up the sails with
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 1, 2009
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      Hi Martin,
      Our boat, Ti Gitu is 40ft with two masts and we found that when running, even with only the forward sail hoisted, we needed to set up the sails with a running boom parrel, and over long batten parrels, so that the sail could swing across the mast to balance the sail area and stop her trying to round up into the wind.
      Once we balance the sail across the mast at roughly two thirds one side and one third opposite, our self steering copes OK.
      Paul.
    • Barry and Meps
      The waves going under the hull of the boat can cause the boat to round up downwind. This can be improved somewhat by a more symmetrical hull shape fore and
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 1, 2009
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        The waves going under the hull of the boat can cause the boat to round up downwind. This can be improved somewhat by a more symmetrical hull shape fore and aft -- Race boats with a fine entry and a wide transom are particularly bad in this regard.

        I believe the downwind advantage of the junk sails is not so much that it prevents this....but that it doesn't make it worse, and that the sails and rig less frequently self-destruct when things go wrong.

        I've never sailed a single masted JR, but I would expect it to be more stable than a ketch or schooner due to having the sail area more forward in that configuration. I know that a Bermudan sloop downwind is more stable with two poled out headsails or even a spinnaker alone (mainsail down) than it is wing and wing.

        Barry

        Martin Roberts wrote:
        > After a great weekend at the JRA Eastern meeting in Bradwell, I and
        > another boat sailed downwind down the Wallet on the east coast of the
        > UK. Boat boats spent a great deal of time turning up at the crests
        > of the waves.
        >
        > In fact I had to steer for the whole journey as the craft would not
        > settle on to a reasonable track.
        >
        > My question is - if junk is a down wind sail why is it so hard to
        > manage downwind and what can be done. I have no luff controls and a
        > fixed boom parrel.
        >
        > Martin Roberts
        >
        --
        s/v Flutterby, Freedom 33 cat ketch (becoming a junk rig)
      • Carlos Diehl
        My experience on a Bermuda sloop with a spinnaker alone is terrible. It goes all over the place. At one time (in the 70 s) we raced with a blooper (a
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 1, 2009
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          My experience on a Bermuda sloop with a spinnaker alone is terrible. It goes
          all over the place. At one time (in the 70's) we raced with a 'blooper' (a
          triangular fore-sail opposed to the spinnaker) and that worked fine, but it
          was outlawed because if anybody fell overboard there was no way to go back
          and pick him up!
          Carlos

          -----Mensaje original-----
          De: junkrig@yahoogroups.com [mailto:junkrig@yahoogroups.com] En nombre de
          Barry and Meps
          Enviado el: Sábado, 01 de Agosto de 2009 04:16 p.m.
          Para: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
          Asunto: Re: [junkrig] Weather Helm and Downwind sailing

          The waves going under the hull of the boat can cause the boat to round up
          downwind. This can be improved somewhat by a more symmetrical hull shape
          fore and aft -- Race boats with a fine entry and a wide transom are
          particularly bad in this regard.

          I believe the downwind advantage of the junk sails is not so much that it
          prevents this....but that it doesn't make it worse, and that the sails and
          rig less frequently self-destruct when things go wrong.

          I've never sailed a single masted JR, but I would expect it to be more
          stable than a ketch or schooner due to having the sail area more forward in
          that configuration. I know that a Bermudan sloop downwind is more stable
          with two poled out headsails or even a spinnaker alone (mainsail down) than
          it is wing and wing.

          Barry

          Martin Roberts wrote:
          > After a great weekend at the JRA Eastern meeting in Bradwell, I and
          > another boat sailed downwind down the Wallet on the east coast of the
          > UK. Boat boats spent a great deal of time turning up at the crests
          > of the waves.
          >
          > In fact I had to steer for the whole journey as the craft would not
          > settle on to a reasonable track.
          >
          > My question is - if junk is a down wind sail why is it so hard to
          > manage downwind and what can be done. I have no luff controls and a
          > fixed boom parrel.
          >
          > Martin Roberts
          >
          --
          s/v Flutterby, Freedom 33 cat ketch (becoming a junk rig)


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        • Barry and Meps
          Actually that was an asymmetrical cruising chute that I was talking about....and I never had it in ocean swells. But raising the main just seemed to make for
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 1, 2009
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            Actually that was an asymmetrical cruising chute that I was talking about....and I never had it in ocean swells. But raising the main just seemed to make for more things to get in the way without doing significant improvement to speed or handling.

            Barry

            Carlos Diehl wrote:
            > My experience on a Bermuda sloop with a spinnaker alone is terrible. It goes
            > all over the place. At one time (in the 70's) we raced with a 'blooper' (a
            > triangular fore-sail opposed to the spinnaker) and that worked fine, but it
            > was outlawed because if anybody fell overboard there was no way to go back
            > and pick him up!
            > Carlos
            >

            --
            s/v Flutterby, Freedom 33 cat ketch (becoming a junk rig)
          • Paul T. Howard
            On Lorcha, a single masted junk rigged boat, when running downwind, I would let the parrel holding the lower yard in position fall far forward until about 20%
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 2, 2009
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              On Lorcha, a single masted junk rigged boat, when running downwind, I would let the parrel holding the lower yard in position fall far forward until about 20% of the sail was overlapping the mast.
              On long passages I would rig a preventer, tying a line to the end of the lower yard, leading it forward to the bow anchor rollers, then to a cleat. Thus it could easily be cast off if necessary. With it rigged as such, the lower yard was fixed and the sail could be reefed until the helm was balanced.
              Our single sail was not a typical junk sail. Lorcha was the third junk rigged vessel we sailed, and I disliked the high point of the upper yard on the Hasler/McLeod rig. Lorcha's upper yard was on about a 30 degree angle from horizontal. Also, the lower yard was 18 feet long with the foot of the sail a few inches shorter at each end. The upper yard was about 12' long with the sail a few inches shorter at either end.
              Thus when the sail was reefed the centre of effort shifted more inboard, reducing weather helm.
              Paul Howard




              ________________________________
              From: "paulfay2@..." <paulfay2@...>
              To: junkrig@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, August 1, 2009 1:47:51 PM
              Subject: [junkrig] Re: Weather Helm and Downwind sailing


              Hi Martin,
              Our boat, Ti Gitu is 40ft with two masts and we found that when running, even with only the forward sail hoisted, we needed to set up the sails with a running boom parrel, and over long batten parrels, so that the sail could swing across the mast to balance the sail area and stop her trying to round up into the wind.
              Once we balance the sail across the mast at roughly two thirds one side and one third opposite, our self steering copes OK.
              Paul.





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            • jcuknz
              As I see it it is a question of understanding the relative positions of Centre of effort and centre of lateral resistance. My experience, when my boat taught
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 2, 2009
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                As I see it it is a question of understanding the relative positions of Centre of effort and centre of lateral resistance. My experience, when my boat taught me, was a 40 mile trip downwind. For the first hour or so I fought the boat with mainsail and genoa. With all the hard ruddering involved I made slow progress.

                Finally I thought, oh well this is going to be a slow trip damm it!

                I took two reefs in the main and the boat bless her simply took off and she made the 40m in eight hours to the minute, not bad for a chubby 20ft WLL keeler. But best of all I could hold the tiller with my little finger resting on it as we charged down the swell and then slowed to climb the next one to charge down the other side. Wunderbar! :-)

                I would have thought that the multi-mast ship has the advanatge with being able to balance the rig better than a single sail. Self steering doesn't work as well running becuase the boat speed detracts from the wind speed on the steering vane.
              • Annie Hill
                I think that a lot of junkies are unaware of just how well the sail shoves the boat along downwind and sail over canvassed. Try dropping a few panels and see
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 2, 2009
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                  I think that a lot of junkies are unaware of just how well the sail
                  shoves the boat along downwind and sail over canvassed. Try dropping a
                  few panels and see if that reduces the weather helm - it probably won't
                  affect your speed. On /Iron Bark/, with gaff rig, we often reef when
                  turning to windward. On /Badger/ with junk rig, we did the opposite.
                  She needed power to go to windward but had more than enough downwind.

                  Annie
                • Arne Kverneland, Norway
                  Stavanger, Monday. I don t think it is easy to make a general rule on this; one mast or two etc. The characteristics of boat and rudder play such a big role.
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 3, 2009
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                    Stavanger, Monday.

                    I don't think it is easy to make a general rule on this; one mast or two etc. The characteristics of boat and rudder play such a big role. On my JR sloop Johanna I've found that the helm stays light downwind as long as I don't fly more sail than can be carried upwind. The speed is still good, and anyway, if I press the boat hard when running, she tends to start rolling. I haven't rigged the sail so that I can shift it forward either; don't feel the need for it. So, again, I guess that hull shape and rudder plays a major part in downwind handling. And, as Annie says, lowering a panel or two helps a lot.

                    Arne
                  • Matti Palm
                    I find that when hoisting sail, the sail tends to swing around quite a lot. Arne: Do you think your shorter batten parrels give less swinging around and
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 3, 2009
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                      I find that when hoisting sail, the sail tends to swing around quite a lot.

                      Arne: Do you think your shorter batten parrels give less swinging
                      around and banging the yard against the mast?

                      Moving the sail to the middle when running with Linnéa sure makes for
                      less weather helm. But reefing does as well, so a comprimise might be
                      a good idea.

                      /Matti

                      On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 9:17 AM, Arne Kverneland,
                      Norway<arkverne@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Stavanger, Monday.
                      >
                      > I don't think it is easy to make a general rule on this; one mast or two
                      > etc. The characteristics of boat and rudder play such a big role. On my JR
                      > sloop Johanna I've found that the helm stays light downwind as long as I
                      > don't fly more sail than can be carried upwind. The speed is still good, and
                      > anyway, if I press the boat hard when running, she tends to start rolling. I
                      > haven't rigged the sail so that I can shift it forward either; don't feel
                      > the need for it. So, again, I guess that hull shape and rudder plays a major
                      > part in downwind handling. And, as Annie says, lowering a panel or two helps
                      > a lot.
                      >
                      > Arne
                      >
                      >
                    • Arne Kverneland, Norway
                      Stavanger, Monday eve Hi Matti. I guess all the junk rigs for my 3 boats, Malena, Johanna and Broremann have fairly short batten parrels. Initially this was
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 3, 2009
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                        Stavanger, Monday eve

                        Hi Matti.

                        I guess all the junk rigs for my 3 boats, Malena, Johanna and Broremann have fairly short batten parrels. Initially this was more or less by accident, not a result of bright thinking. But then, when reefing a cambered panel junk sail, I noticed that the sail tended to move forward and that the short batten parrels limited this forward move to the first reef. So now I think that short batten barrels are best, unless I would like to fit one or two extra luff hauling parrels plus a running tack line to play with.
                        With my setup, the yard never swings around or bangs against the mast. It is a very docile and quiet rig.

                        Arne



                        --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, Matti Palm <matti.palm@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I find that when hoisting sail, the sail tends to swing around quite a lot.
                        >
                        > Arne: Do you think your shorter batten parrels give less swinging
                        > around and banging the yard against the mast?
                        >
                        > Moving the sail to the middle when running with Linnéa sure makes for
                        > less weather helm. But reefing does as well, so a comprimise might be
                        > a good idea.
                        >
                        > /Matti
                        >
                      • jcuknz
                        Put another way and elaborating on what Annie and Arne have said ... all boats have a given hull speed capability and adding more power, sail area or motor,
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 5, 2009
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                          Put another way and elaborating on what Annie and Arne have said ... all boats have a given hull speed capability and adding more power, sail area or motor, will not make them go any faster. The trick as A+A suggest is to work that out for your boat With a displacement hull adding more power merely makes them try to climb the 'hill' of the bow wave, max speed is 'hull speed' when she sits level with bow on bow wave and stern on the one behind.
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