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Re: [json] Strings

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  • Michal Migurski
    ... Beginning to? I thought this was the idea all along? Syntax that s valid Javascript, Python, and easy to write parsers for other languages. I m already
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 4, 2006
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      > And here was me blithely thinking JSON was supposed to be a
      > "JavaScript
      > Object Notation". What happened to the JavaScript focus? With all due
      > respect, it's beginning to seem like JSON is supposed to be a
      > minimalist
      > object notation that's compatible with JavaScript and as many other
      > languages as possible.

      Beginning to? I thought this was the idea all along? Syntax that's
      valid Javascript, Python, and easy to write parsers for other
      languages. I'm already using it in a number of situations where
      Javascript plays no role whatsoever (e.g., interprocess communication
      between Python and PHP), and its simplicity makes me quite happy.

      > Add PHP to the list of non-JavaScript languages JSON is trying to
      > cater
      > to... (... and add PHP programmers to my list of not-so-smart-folks
      > if they
      > can't understand string quoting... ;)

      !

      Honestly, I don't understand the desire to gum up the works here.
      Comments, quoting options - use raw Javascript or XOXO for strings,
      lists and dictionaries if you need such extras. JSON as a spec is
      simple, elegant, and complete.

      ----------------------------------------------------------------
      michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
      sf/ca http://mike.teczno.com/contact.html





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Martin Cooper
      ... Then can you please explain why it is called JavaScript Object Notation? -- Martin Cooper but uses ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 4, 2006
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        On 1/4/06, Douglas Crockford <douglas@...> wrote:
        >
        > > And here was me blithely thinking JSON was supposed to be a "JavaScript
        > > Object Notation". What happened to the JavaScript focus? With all due
        > > respect, it's beginning to seem like JSON is supposed to be a minimalist
        > > object notation that's compatible with JavaScript and as many other
        > > languages as possible.
        >
        > That is correct.
        >
        > JSON is a text format that is completely language independent


        Then can you please explain why it is called JavaScript Object Notation?

        --
        Martin Cooper


        but uses
        > conventions that are familiar to programmers of the C-family of
        > languages, including C, C++, C#, Java, JavaScript, Perl, Python, and
        > many others. These properties make JSON an ideal data-interchange
        > language.
        >
        > JSON is built on two structures:
        >
        > * A collection of name/value pairs. In various languages, this is
        > realized as an object, record, struct, dictionary, hash table, keyed
        > list, or associative array.
        > * An ordered list of values. In most languages, this is realized
        > as an array, vector, list, table, or sequence.
        >
        > These are universal data structures. Virtually all modern programming
        > languages support them in one form or another. It makes sense that a
        > data format that is interchangable with programming languages also be
        > based on these structures.
        >
        > See http://www.JSON.org
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Douglas Crockford
        ... JSON is based on a subset of the JavaScript Programming Language, Standard ECMA-262 3rd Edition - December 1999. See http://www.JSON.org/
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 4, 2006
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          > Then can you please explain why it is called JavaScript Object Notation?

          JSON is based on a subset of the JavaScript Programming Language,
          Standard ECMA-262 3rd Edition - December 1999.

          See http://www.JSON.org/
        • Atif Aziz
          ... It is up to the coder to define best practices not the format to impose or restrict them.
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 5, 2006
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            >>
            It is up to the coder to define 'best practices' not the format to
            impose or restrict them.
            <<

            Agreed. The problem lies in some of the inconsistencies surrounding
            the goals, purpose and application of JSON and which I am interested
            in seeing disambiguated. As it stands, right now, the contents of
            the specification are, without a doubt, really good enough for a
            machine encoder. There is little information in there to guide the
            decoders. A human encoder is only at the mercy of the decoder's
            flexibility and there's even more trouble if the implementation
            swaps from underneath his or her feet. Why are humans such a big
            issue? Well, it's right there as the second claim in the
            specification: "It is easy for humans to read and write." The rules
            about strings and unquotable member names is less of a concern for
            humans because allowing a smaller subset means remembering fewer
            rules. However, the resistance to mention comments whatsoever is
            just incomprehensible and beyond me.

            >>
            Then again, it is a 'subset' of JavaScript Object Literals, lowest
            common denominator to be compatible with other languages.
            <<

            Incidentally, what is a data format doing concerning itself with
            lanugages and bindings? I can understand leveraging familiarity with
            existing syntax across the C-family of languages, but that can only
            be used with grain of salt in the design of the data format. The
            lowest common denominator argument is only good enough while things
            remain simple.

            --- In json@yahoogroups.com, "George" <georgenava@y...> wrote:
            >
            > I agree 100% with you.
            > Do as I do and use Javascript Object Literals as they are
            specified in
            > the Javascript or ECMAScript Reference.
            >
            > Anything the JS parser allows is considered valid:
            > - Comments
            > - Quoted/Unquoted keys
            > - Numbered Keys
            > - Single/Double Quotes
            > - Scientific Notation
            > - Unicode
            >
            > It is up to the coder to define 'best practices' not the format to
            > impose or restrict them.
            >
            > Then again, it is a 'subset' of JavaScript Object Literals, lowest
            > common denominator to be compatible with other languages.
            >
            > If your target are web apps, HTML and JS, just go and use the whole
            > set and more.
            >
            > Crockford knows I always opposed his stubbornness ;-)
            >
            > George
            >
            > --- In json@yahoogroups.com, Martin Cooper <mfncooper@g...> wrote:
            > >
            > > On 1/3/06, Douglas Crockford <douglas@c...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > JSON has a string notation which is similar to that used in
            the C
            > > > family languages. Strings are bounded by double quote
            characters.
            > > > Escapement is provided by the backslash. The spec specifically
            allows
            > > > the slash to be escaped so that JSON can be delivered in HTML
            > documents.
            > >
            > >
            > > These statements have me really wondering about what JSON is
            > supposed to be.
            > > The reasoning behind removing comments was that it would "more
            > closely align
            > > JSON with YAML and Python". Now we have double quoted strings
            only,
            > which is
            > > "similar to that used in the C family language", and so that
            it "can be
            > > delivered in HTML documents".
            > >
            > > And here was me blithely thinking JSON was supposed to be
            a "JavaScript
            > > Object Notation". What happened to the JavaScript focus? With
            all due
            > > respect, it's beginning to seem like JSON is supposed to be a
            minimalist
            > > object notation that's compatible with JavaScript and as many
            other
            > > languages as possible. Perhaps it should be renamed "MON" for
            > Minimal Object
            > > Notation? ;-) The "JSON" moniker is seeming less and less
            appropriate.
            > >
            > > The single quote convention is not included in JSON because it
            is not
            > > > needed.
            > >
            > >
            > > It wasn't "needed" in JavaScript / ECMAScript either, but they
            still
            > > included it. It's convenient because it frequently allows you to
            avoid
            > > backslashes / escapes in string literals.
            > >
            > > All strings can be represented with the double quote notation.
            > > > C itself does not have single quote strings. Many PHP
            programmers are
            > > > confused by JavaScript's single quote strings.
            > >
            > >
            > > Add PHP to the list of non-JavaScript languages JSON is trying
            to cater
            > > to... (... and add PHP programmers to my list of not-so-smart-
            folks
            > if they
            > > can't understand string quoting... ;)
            > >
            > > JSON requires that keys be quoted because of an error in the
            > > > ECMAScript spec that disallows the use of unquoted reserved
            words as
            > > > keys. The list of reserved words is surprisingly long and
            difficult to
            > > > remember. The best practice is to always quote keys.
            > >
            > >
            > > That is a good reason to document a "best practice". It is in no
            way a
            > > reason to ban people from using unquoted key names.
            > >
            > > As an historical note, the very first JSON message contained as
            one of
            > > > its keys the word "do". It was not quoted, and it caused a
            syntax
            > error.
            > >
            > >
            > > Not a good start, huh? ;-)
            > >
            > > --
            > > Martin Cooper
            > >
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
          • Atif Aziz
            ... And who took away single quoted strings and unquoted member names?! Hell yes, I d like to see the reasoning for changes like that, too.
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 5, 2006
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              Dave said [1]:

              >>
              And who took away single quoted strings and unquoted member names?!
              Hell yes, I'd like to see the reasoning for changes like that, too.<<
              <<

              I'd like apologize for this misconception and correct where I have
              been wrong. It appears that the spec never actually endorsed
              unquoted keys or single-quote strings. I went back and looked at the
              earliest version of the spec [2] I could find (dated Apr 17, 2003)
              and there's no mention of it in there. So technically speaking, it
              was never removed (unlike comments, which were). Whether they should
              be added is another story altogether. Right now, I'd just like to
              stick to clarification.

              The confusion came from two sources. First of all, the JSON spec
              seemed small enough to keep in the head. In fact, the easiest rule
              to remember was that, aside from expressions, JSON is really just a
              formalization of JavaScript's literal notation for dictionaries,
              arrays and primitives like strings, numbers, booleans and null. It
              turns out that it's a little less than that, but this detail fades
              away as you spend time in the various implementations; therein lies
              the second problem. Most implementations seem to be exercising (and
              rightly so) a good axiom of the web, "Be liberal in what you require
              but conservative in what you do." So the spec is clear and thorough
              from the encoding perspective (conservative) and no one has
              questioned that (some have been calling it "best practices"). The
              decoding end, however, varies a lot and leads to confusion
              (including my own rearding quotes). I originally started my C#
              implementation as a re-factoring of the Java version 0.1 [3]. At the
              time, this is what was said about the parser's level of tolerance:

              ========================================
              The texts produced by the toString() methods are very strict. The
              constructors are more forgiving in the texts they will accept.

              - An extra comma may appear just before the closing brace.
              - Strings may be quoted with single quotes.
              - Strings do not need to be quoted at all if they do not contain
              leading or trailing spaces, and if they do not contain any of these
              characters: { } [ ] / \ : ,
              - Numbers may have the 0- (octal) or 0x- (hex) prefix.
              ========================================

              The second and third point had somehow ruined my memory of the spec
              as I started spending more time in unit-testing and bootstrapping
              the parser with hand-coded JSON samples. The original JavaScript
              implementation [4] was on par with the above level of acceptance. In
              fact, both allowed more JavaScript literals to be expressed than
              JSON permits (which you could argue was reasonable). Today, version
              2.0 of the Java implementation [4] has gone considerably more
              liberal:

              ========================================
              The constructors are more forgiving in the texts they will accept:

              - An extra , (comma) may appear just before the closing brace.
              - Strings may be quoted with ' (single quote).
              - Strings do not need to be quoted at all if they do not begin with
              a quote or single quote, and if they do not contain leading or
              trailing spaces, and if they do not contain any of these characters:
              { } [ ] / \ : , = ; # and if they do not look like numbers and if
              they are not the reserved words true, false, or null.
              - Keys can be followed by = or => as well as by :.
              - Values can be followed by ; (semicolon) as well as by , (comma).
              - Numbers may have the 0- (octal) or 0x- (hex) prefix.
              - Comments written in the slashshlash, slashstar, and hash
              conventions will be ignored.
              ========================================

              Fine, so these are the decisions of merely one implementation. What
              is disturbing, however, is that the JavaScript version has gone
              completely in the opposite direction in favor of speed; so as to be
              able to benefit from native parsing provided strict adherence to the
              JSON token space. Consequently, it's gone intolerant and sticks to
              the encoding specification, bit-by-bit. So much so, that a JSON
              sample (incidentally with comments) on the site [6] won't pass it.
              Again, if this was done in a compatible manner then it would be less
              of a problem, but I consider these to be *reference* implementations
              of the standard!

              My comments on comments (pun intended), however, still stand in face
              of weak and subjective arguments that they are not needed. It is
              precisely in the light of such concerns that I was hoping that
              comments warrant a mention!

              -Atif

              ----------

              [1] http://shrinkster.com/ahp ;
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/json/message/186
              [2] http://shrinkster.com/ahq ;
              http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.crockford.com/JSON/
              [3] http://shrinkster.com/ahr ;
              http://web.archive.org/web/20050306024809/http://www.crockford.com/JS
              ON/javadoc/org/json/JSONObject.html
              [4] http://shrinkster.com/ahs ;
              http://www.raboof.com/Projects/Jayrock/json.js
              [5] http://shrinkster.com/aht ;
              http://www.crockford.com/JSON/javadoc/org/json/JSONObject.html
              [6] http://shrinkster.com/ahu ;
              http://www.crockford.com/JSON/example.html

              --- In json@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas Crockford" <douglas@c...>
              wrote:
              >
              > JSON has a string notation which is similar to that used in the C
              > family languages. Strings are bounded by double quote characters.
              > Escapement is provided by the backslash. The spec specifically
              allows
              > the slash to be escaped so that JSON can be delivered in HTML
              documents.
              >
              > The single quote convention is not included in JSON because it is
              not
              > needed. All strings can be represented with the double quote
              notation.
              > C itself does not have single quote strings. Many PHP programmers
              are
              > confused by JavaScript's single quote strings.
              >
              > JSON requires that keys be quoted because of an error in the
              > ECMAScript spec that disallows the use of unquoted reserved words
              as
              > keys. The list of reserved words is surprisingly long and
              difficult to
              > remember. The best practice is to always quote keys.
              >
              > As an historical note, the very first JSON message contained as
              one of
              > its keys the word "do". It was not quoted, and it caused a syntax
              error.
              >
            • Douglas Crockford
              ... I used to agree what comments would be useful. But since I started using JSON, I never discovered what that use was. I have seen them used very badly. I
              Message 6 of 12 , Jan 5, 2006
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                > My comments on comments (pun intended), however, still stand in face
                > of weak and subjective arguments that they are not needed. It is
                > precisely in the light of such concerns that I was hoping that
                > comments warrant a mention!

                I used to agree what comments would be useful. But since I started
                using JSON, I never discovered what that use was. I have seen them
                used very badly. I have asked several times what the value is that
                requires that support be added to every implementation. I am still
                listening.
              • Martin Cooper
                ... You re not convinced that saving developers time is valuable? OK, then, how about compatibility? There are lots of JSON implementations out there already,
                Message 7 of 12 , Jan 5, 2006
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                  On 1/5/06, Douglas Crockford <douglas@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > My comments on comments (pun intended), however, still stand in face
                  > > of weak and subjective arguments that they are not needed. It is
                  > > precisely in the light of such concerns that I was hoping that
                  > > comments warrant a mention!
                  >
                  > I used to agree what comments would be useful. But since I started
                  > using JSON, I never discovered what that use was. I have seen them
                  > used very badly. I have asked several times what the value is that
                  > requires that support be added to every implementation. I am still
                  > listening.


                  You're not convinced that saving developers' time is valuable?

                  OK, then, how about compatibility? There are lots of JSON implementations
                  out there already, and I'm sure most of them already support comments, my
                  own included. Interoperability between those and new ones would be reduced
                  by eliminating comments from the spec now. The cat is already out of the
                  bag.

                  --
                  Martin Cooper


                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • jemptymethod
                  ... I don t think this is an error in the ... spec .... I can think of at least one other language that disallows unquoted reserved words as keys (Lua), and
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jan 14, 2006
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                    --- In json@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas Crockford" <douglas@c...> wrote:
                    >
                    > JSON requires that keys be quoted because of an error in the
                    > ECMAScript spec that disallows the use of unquoted reserved words as
                    > keys. The list of reserved words is surprisingly long and difficult to
                    > remember. The best practice is to always quote keys.

                    I don't think this is "an error in the ... spec" .... I can think of
                    at least one other language that disallows unquoted reserved words as
                    keys (Lua), and there are others I'm certain
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