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Re: IMPORTANT: Remove this line from json2.js before deployment.

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  • Douglas Crockford
    There is more information at http://www.stevesouders.com/blog/2009/12/10/crockford-alert/ and
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 12, 2009
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    • Andrea Giammarchi
      Douglas, I think this move was brilliant, but as I have twitted, I wonder how many devs wrote a: window.alert = function(){}; before including external
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 13, 2009
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        Douglas, I think this move was brilliant, but as I have twitted, I wonder
        how many devs wrote a:

        window.alert = function(){};

        before including external resources, rather than get the real/original
        message (also because alert is something only RyanAir and few others could
        still use "in 2010")

        In any case, specially for a problematic subject as JSON evaluation is, I
        guess you should be proud about the fact that many people simply trust your
        implementation.
        Moreover, as somebody already said, I think it's more about having an
        automatically updated version, rather than grab your server bandwidth.

        I think your JSON implementation should be hosted with a "Donate" button in
        some place able to use pre-gzipped/deflated/plain version via ETag, 304, and
        every possible technique able to make it safer and usable everywhere, with
        clear benefits provided by common browsers cache.

        Best Regards

        On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 1:00 AM, Douglas Crockford <douglas@...>wrote:

        >
        >
        > There is more information at
        > http://www.stevesouders.com/blog/2009/12/10/crockford-alert/ and
        > http://ajaxian.com/archives/doug-crockford-and-the-online-booty-call-saga
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Douglas Crockford
        ... The point I was making was that if you care about reliability, security, and performance, then you shouldn t load scripts directly from third party
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 13, 2009
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          --- In json@yahoogroups.com, Andrea Giammarchi <andrea.giammarchi@...> wrote:
          >
          > Douglas, I think this move was brilliant, but as I have twitted, I
          > wonder how many devs wrote a:
          >
          > window.alert = function(){};
          >
          > before including external resources, rather than get the real/original
          > message

          The point I was making was that if you care about reliability, security, and performance, then you shouldn't load scripts directly from third party servers. Are you suggesting that it is ok if you stub out alert first?
        • Philip Tellis
          2009/12/14 Douglas Crockford ... I think he s suggesting that the people who need to get the point may not actually get it - they ll
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 13, 2009
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            2009/12/14 Douglas Crockford <douglas@...>
            >
            > --- In json@yahoogroups.com, Andrea Giammarchi <andrea.giammarchi@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Douglas, I think this move was brilliant, but as I have twitted, I
            > > wonder how many devs wrote a:
            > >
            > > window.alert = function(){};
            > >
            > > before including external resources, rather than get the real/original
            > > message
            >
            > The point I was making was that if you care about reliability, security, and performance, then you shouldn't load scripts directly from third party servers. Are you suggesting that it is ok if you stub out alert first?

            I think he's suggesting that the people who need to get the point may
            not actually get it - they'll just work around it with no idea why you
            put it in there.
          • Andrea Giammarchi
            If you go in YUI 3 Configurator the Result page provides a script to copy and paste to include remotely the library.
            Message 5 of 9 , Dec 13, 2009
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              If you go in YUI 3 Configurator the Result page provides a script to copy
              and paste to include remotely the library.
              http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/3/configurator/

              If you go in Google Ajax libraries you will find external URIs to use third
              part hosts as trusted safe and secure host with updated libraries.
              http://code.google.com/apis/ajaxlibs/documentation/#AjaxLibraries

              If you are using dojo library you probably know about AOL:
              http://dev.aol.com/dojo

              What am I saying is that we are not everybody under https and we trust, for
              whatever reason, some external domain.
              Not everybody could have followed the "alert story", I can already imagine
              developers called 6am in the morning about an alert in the website that does
              not use alerts at all.
              These devs could have quickly solved the problem nullifying the alert
              without caring about why the alert was there and, in the worst case
              scenario, blaming you to have forgot an alert inside your library and
              feeling cool to have solved an unexpected alert problem forever (so try with
              prompt or confirm ...)

              Since the message as is could sound more like you were testing something and
              you forgot an alert, I would rather change the alert message with a link
              that points WHY there is an alert.

              I totally agree with you and it could often be about developers laziness (in
              YUI case they did not use the php loader, etc etc) but at the same time:

              1 - every website could benefit about common external resources thanks to
              distributed cache for common libaries
              2 - this message is not perfectly clear since somebody, YUI! itself, is
              suggesting external resources while you, a Yahoo! engineer, are saying that
              this is so bad that anybody should avoid this technique

              Do you see what I mean?

              Regards


              On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 6:38 PM, Douglas Crockford <douglas@...>wrote:

              >
              >
              > --- In json@yahoogroups.com <json%40yahoogroups.com>, Andrea Giammarchi
              > <andrea.giammarchi@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Douglas, I think this move was brilliant, but as I have twitted, I
              > > wonder how many devs wrote a:
              > >
              > > window.alert = function(){};
              > >
              > > before including external resources, rather than get the real/original
              > > message
              >
              > The point I was making was that if you care about reliability, security,
              > and performance, then you shouldn't load scripts directly from third party
              > servers. Are you suggesting that it is ok if you stub out alert first?
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Andrea Giammarchi
              Just to underline another thing: ... reliability ... they are including the de facto official JSON library for JavaScript security ... they trust your
              Message 6 of 9 , Dec 13, 2009
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                Just to underline another thing:

                On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 6:38 PM, Douglas Crockford <douglas@...>wrote:

                >
                > The point I was making was that if you care about reliability, security,
                > and performance
                >
                >
                reliability ... they are including the de facto official JSON library for
                JavaScript
                security ... they trust your implementation and they trust the fact you keep
                updating it
                performances ... they are using a potentially "common used external
                resource" so if the browser cached already that version performances will be
                better for every website that includes it plus they are saving bandwidth.

                As you can see somebody could think that your points ARE the reason they
                included JSON via the direct source, rather than their local copy
                potentially non updated and served even if almost every browser has stored
                somewhere exactly the same library.

                So, finally, I would think about a proper specific server or an official
                repository Github style so that people than use the raw minified and gzipped
                version with the 304 response, but if you think nobody should ever include
                external scripts, you should tell us why we all have YUI configurator
                scripts, google adsense/analytic files, etc etc.

                Regards


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Leen Besselink
                ... Hi Andrea, I think you are forgetting that the (current) json.org website is probably just a shared-hosting account. So that probably means it s not as
                Message 7 of 9 , Dec 14, 2009
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                  On 12/13/2009 09:34 PM, Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
                  >
                  > Just to underline another thing:
                  >
                  > On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 6:38 PM, Douglas Crockford
                  > <douglas@... <mailto:douglas%40crockford.com>>wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > The point I was making was that if you care about reliability, security,
                  > > and performance
                  > >
                  > >
                  > reliability ... they are including the de facto official JSON library for
                  > JavaScript
                  > security ... they trust your implementation and they trust the fact
                  > you keep
                  > updating it
                  > performances ... they are using a potentially "common used external
                  > resource" so if the browser cached already that version performances
                  > will be
                  > better for every website that includes it plus they are saving bandwidth.
                  >
                  > As you can see somebody could think that your points ARE the reason they
                  > included JSON via the direct source, rather than their local copy
                  > potentially non updated and served even if almost every browser has stored
                  > somewhere exactly the same library.
                  >

                  Hi Andrea,

                  I think you are forgetting that the (current) json.org website is
                  probably just a shared-hosting
                  account.

                  So that probably means it's not as reliable as something Google or Yahoo
                  might do for some of the js-libraries.

                  Performance-wise it would be really bad if everyone started hotlinking
                  to just that one (or maybe 2 or 3) server(s) as well.

                  Security-wise, something like the CDN-like setup Google and Yahoo are
                  doing have a lot of save-gaurds,
                  like monitoring tools and employees for file-changes. Seperate dedicated
                  datacenters or atleast 'cages' of
                  dedicated 19"-racks of servers. And not to forget procedures.

                  While I do think getting automatic updates of json[2].js would be really
                  interresting, because it's a very
                  security-sensitive library.

                  So in the current situation, it's a really bad idea.

                  >
                  > So, finally, I would think about a proper specific server or an official
                  > repository Github style so that people than use the raw minified and
                  > gzipped
                  > version with the 304 response, but if you think nobody should ever include
                  > external scripts, you should tell us why we all have YUI configurator
                  > scripts, google adsense/analytic files, etc etc.
                  >

                  Yes, I think some people would love to see Yahoo add json[2].js to their
                  list of js-libraries
                  they are already hosting on their own CDN (I think Google has a whole
                  list of libraries).

                  But maybe Mr. Crockford does not want his personal project to be tied to
                  his (current)
                  employer or Google. I don't know their, could be many reasons.

                  > Regards
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
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