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Re: [json] Re: JSON syntax grammar is missing 'undefined' literal value

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  • Tatu Saloranta
    On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 10:19 AM, Greg Patnude wrote: ... I don t think it s true for most (modern) programming languages; although it
    Message 1 of 19 , May 27, 2008
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      On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 10:19 AM, Greg Patnude <gpatnude@...> wrote:
      ...
      > Most modern programming languages HAVE defined "undefined" --
      > Undefined is NOT 0 and NOT 1, and NOT 'null' AND NOT 'not null', and
      > NOT true and NOT false... Bottom line: undefined is actually defined
      > as something that is NOT DEFINED...

      I don't think it's true for most (modern) programming languages;
      although it may be true for most _scripting_ languages. This is
      different from, say, null, which has a counterpart in about any
      language including c and c++ (unlike someone claimed earlier).

      > As far as JSON goes -- by definition: it is "JavaScript Object
      > Notation" -- so -- on the technical definition -- JSON is in fact a
      > "JavaScript-ONLY" object notation mechanism. The great thing about

      Not really: you can not derive semantics from etymology. Names are
      just names and like you mention, they can lead to intuitive yet
      incorrect guesses.

      To understand goals, one could consult the author... and Doug has
      already pointed out his view on the matter.

      Additionally reading the JSON RFC, http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4627.txt
      one can find:

      "JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) is a lightweight, text-based,
      language-independent data interchange format"

      Nowhere does it say anything about coupling with Javascript.
      My understanding is that just JS syntax was used. In a funny way makes
      sense: JavaScript has little to do with Java, beyond syntax; and
      similarly JSON just took syntax from Javascript (or, from Java, if you
      will).

      Apologies for prolonging this flogging of a dead horse,

      -+ Tatu +-
    • Shelby Moore
      Thanks to all that replied to my prior post. This is my reply to you all. 1) Undefined is essential in languages that treat identifiers as hash keys of an
      Message 2 of 19 , May 27, 2008
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        Thanks to all that replied to my prior post. This is my reply to you all.

        1) Undefined is essential in languages that treat identifiers as hash
        keys of an object (i.e. modern dynamic scripting languages). Static
        identifier languages, can simulate dynamic identifiers with a hash
        collection class.

        2) Afair, K&R (ANSI) C did not have null, only void*. In K&R (ANSI) C,
        void is not valid in a conditional nor assignment expression, and
        identifiers are not dynamically constructed and typed.

        3) Undefined is a critical primitive in any hash object data
        structure, that supports inheritance. I already explained my logic in
        prior post.

        This will all become more obvious to you all, as someone actually
        brings real world application of Semantic Web to reality.

        4) I agree with Douglas not to modify the JSON standard specification,
        but rather to usurp it (JSON+ or whatever it may be called) if the
        market shall be so. I believe in de facto (competing) standards, not
        in centrally managed ones, which is one of the main motivations of the
        development I am working on. I believe in a million points of light
        competing. I believe in freedom and liberty.

        Okay enough talk from me. Your comments have encouraged me. Thanks
        very much to all. And best wishes to all as well.
      • doug furcht
        Mark thinks it s boring... we should all move on. ... From: Mark Joseph To: json@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 11:30:20 AM
        Message 3 of 19 , May 28, 2008
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          Mark thinks it's boring... we should all move on.


          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Mark Joseph <mark@...>
          To: json@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 11:30:20 AM
          Subject: Re: [json] Re: JSON syntax grammar is missing 'undefined' literal value


          I agree with this totally. And frankly I am finding the
          current discussion a bit boring and a waste of time.

          Best,
          Mark
          P6R, Inc

          On Tue, 27 May 2008 09:46:23 -0700
          "Tatu Saloranta" <tsaloranta@gmail. com> wrote:
          > How about moving security-related discussion to another
          >thread or group?
          >
          > And with regards to adding keyword 'undefined' to json,
          >I would be
          > strongly against adding any such language-specific
          >keywords. As a
          > non-javascript- user of json I would find it a rather
          >silly and useless
          > addition. Json's goals are not, as far as I understand,
          >to be
          > javascript(- only) serialization format, but rather serve
          >as a
          > minimalistic generalized object notation.
          >
          > -+ Tatu +-
          >
          > On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 3:04 AM, Shelby Moore
          ><shelby@coolpage. com> wrote:
          >>> Douglas Crockford wrote:
          >>> > As a name, it is implemented as a writable global
          >>> > variable, a feature with alarming security and
          >>>reliability
          >>> > consequences.
          >>
          >> On further thought, this is not any more a security
          >>concern, than
          >> JavaScript (or the web page) itself. Agreed, it should
          >>be made
          >> read-only to prevent against non-malicious untended
          >>modification.
          >>
          >> There is no security in any JavaScript, because rogue
          >>code can change
          >> any user code. The entire current concept of browser
          >>security is
          >> conceptually flawed, and the solution is as follows:
          >>
          >> http://www.coolpage .com/commentary/ economic/ shelby/security. html
          >>
          >> The only trustable web page is the one where ALL
          >>referents (resources)
          >> come from a trusted source. Security is fundamentally
          >>trust.
          >> Increasing granularity of trust, decreases security
          >>conflicts. I give
          >> a proposal using sub-frames to segregate private data
          >>from the rest of
          >> the web page.
          >>
          >>
          >> ------------ --------- --------- ------
          >>
          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>

          ------------ --------- ----
          Mark Joseph, Ph.D.
          President and Secretary
          P6R, Inc.
          http://www.p6r com
          408-205-0361
          Fax: 831-476-7490
          Skype: markjoseph_sc
          IM: (Yahoo) mjoseph8888
          (AIM) mjoseph8888





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