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Re: [jslint] Array construction bug

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  • John Hawkinson
    One of the problems I have with this discussion is that the cost of having to go read this repeatString() function, however it is implemented, is significant.
    Message 1 of 21 , Aug 31, 2012
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      One of the problems I have with this discussion is that
      the cost of having to go read this repeatString() function,
      however it is implemented, is significant. But some analysis
      appears to ignore that.

      The oneliner proposed is fairly clear to me.
      More so than the for loop variants.

      But even if they were more clear, I do not think that would justify
      the programmer cost of having another function to review, test, and
      consider.

      But either way, these are reasonable judgements and it seems like yet
      another reminder that JSLint is not a JS code quality tool, as much as
      it is a style enforcement tool, and for only one person's style in
      particular.

      And it is the nature of style that it varies wildly and it is rare
      indeed for two programmers to see eye-to-eye on all style points.

      It saddens me that JSLint, which could be an awesome tool,
      instead is just about fights over style. I wish we could rise
      above this, but I do not see a path forward.

      --jhawk@...
      John Hawkinson
    • Tom Worster
      i just think JSLint isn t for everyone. i had been using it with greater or lesser enthusiasm for years until, after watching the video of douglas talk at
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 1 8:16 AM
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        i just think JSLint isn't for everyone.

        i had been using it with greater or lesser enthusiasm for years until,
        after watching the video of douglas' talk at txjs11 several times, i had a
        blinding conversion. finally i saw that it doesn't matter what i think
        about code style. the only thing that matters is reducing the chance of
        bugs now and in the future while assuming that my code is going to be
        inherited by marginally competent programmers(*).

        before this conversion, JSLint would sometimes annoy me with its nagging.
        the annoyance would manifest something like "but i know what i'm doing" or
        "but i don't like that" or "my version is better". now, whenever that
        feeling comes upon me i tell myself (sometimes out loud): "it doesn't
        matter what you prefer, tom, not even a little bit." and once i calm down
        i can usually see the wisdom of JSLint's suggestion.

        code is not design and programming is not the act of designing.
        programming is a dreadful business. i welcome anything that can improve
        the chance that the program will be and will remain correct.

        but obviously many programmers don't share my view. and JSLint isn't for
        everyone.

        and, btw, i liked one part of douglas' talk so much i transcribed it:
        http://thefsb.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/code-quality/

        (*) and when i'm really honest with myself i have to count myself among
        them.
      • benquarmby
        Hey Tom, That TXJS11 talk was great wasn t it! http://vimeo.com/25606006 If you can switch off the emotional side of your brain, the logic is very hard to
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 2 3:31 PM
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          Hey Tom,

          That TXJS11 talk was great wasn't it!
          http://vimeo.com/25606006

          If you can switch off the emotional side of your brain, the logic is very hard to refute. There are whole classes of errors you will never see when using JSLint. It improves the odds of success, and in terms of QA and support costs, those odds are measured in dollars.

          As far as style goes, I also recommend Jeff Atwood's blog post "Death to the Space Infidels":
          http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2009/04/death-to-the-space-infidels.html

          I could go on about how debilitating opinionated format wars and code style "creative differences" can be, both to a team and the software they produce. Instead, I'll just encourage everyone: If you work as part of a team of any size other than one, rely on this cold, heartless tool to get your JavaScript code-base consistent. It can take all the gnashing of teeth and chest pounding your team can throw at it.

          --- In jslint_com@yahoogroups.com, Tom Worster <fsb@...> wrote:
          >
          > i just think JSLint isn't for everyone.
          >
          > i had been using it with greater or lesser enthusiasm for years until,
          > after watching the video of douglas' talk at txjs11 several times, i had a
          > blinding conversion. finally i saw that it doesn't matter what i think
          > about code style. the only thing that matters is reducing the chance of
          > bugs now and in the future while assuming that my code is going to be
          > inherited by marginally competent programmers(*).
          >
          > before this conversion, JSLint would sometimes annoy me with its nagging.
          > the annoyance would manifest something like "but i know what i'm doing" or
          > "but i don't like that" or "my version is better". now, whenever that
          > feeling comes upon me i tell myself (sometimes out loud): "it doesn't
          > matter what you prefer, tom, not even a little bit." and once i calm down
          > i can usually see the wisdom of JSLint's suggestion.
          >
          > code is not design and programming is not the act of designing.
          > programming is a dreadful business. i welcome anything that can improve
          > the chance that the program will be and will remain correct.
          >
          > but obviously many programmers don't share my view. and JSLint isn't for
          > everyone.
          >
          > and, btw, i liked one part of douglas' talk so much i transcribed it:
          > http://thefsb.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/code-quality/
          >
          > (*) and when i'm really honest with myself i have to count myself among
          > them.
          >
        • Joe Hansche
          ... I agree with this. I really don t disagree with Crawford, or JSLint... but on SOME things I do. I use it a lot, because you re right: it does find bugs
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 2, 2012
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            On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 6:31 PM, benquarmby <ben.quarmby@...>wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > Hey Tom,
            >
            > That TXJS11 talk was great wasn't it!
            > http://vimeo.com/25606006
            >
            > If you can switch off the emotional side of your brain, the logic is very
            > hard to refute. There are whole classes of errors you will never see when
            > using JSLint. It improves the odds of success, and in terms of QA and
            > support costs, those odds are measured in dollars.
            >
            > As far as style goes, I also recommend Jeff Atwood's blog post "Death to
            > the Space Infidels":
            > http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2009/04/death-to-the-space-infidels.html
            >
            > I could go on about how debilitating opinionated format wars and code
            > style "creative differences" can be, both to a team and the software they
            > produce. Instead, I'll just encourage everyone: If you work as part of a
            > team of any size other than one, rely on this cold, heartless tool to get
            > your JavaScript code-base consistent. It can take all the gnashing of teeth
            > and chest pounding your team can throw at it.
            >
            I agree with this. I really don't disagree with Crawford, or JSLint...
            but on SOME things I do. I use it a lot, because you're right: it does
            find bugs that other people might mistake or miss. I do all I can to avoid
            the JSLint errors that come up in my own files. I will rewrite stuff, move
            stuff around, etc, to reduce the number of JSLint errors I see. What sucks
            is that not all of my coworkers use JSLint. So when I do (in other
            people's files), most of the mistakes are not mine. And being in a
            corporate world, I really don't have the luxury of just changing all their
            shit around, unfortunately.

            And unfortunately, some of the complaints are about things that are so
            trivial, I can't really justify (passing a code review) changing everything
            about a JS file just because JSLint says it's bad. I might agree with the
            a lot of it, but if I want to get my code to production, trust me, I'm not
            going to follow JSLint to fix all the other issues in the file (which I
            didn't write).

            I use JSLint on my own (new) files, because I know that it will end up in
            better code. Code that I can manage better, in case bugs are found; and
            in case someone else has to touch it, hopefully they are faced with far
            fewer issues to deal with.

            That said, I don't agree with the *attitude* that Crawford takes on the
            *programmers*. I work with a lot of very talented individuals. But the
            general consensus is, if you don't write in HIS style, you are a BAD
            programmer. I have more colorful words to describe my distaste in that,
            but let's just leave it at "I am not moved" by his distrust of the entire
            development community. I have my style, he has his. My style to date has
            not left me in a bad state, and I still try to follow his "suggestions," as
            far as JSLint is concerned.

            But for other developers out there, you have to weigh the cost of following
            Crawford, vs finding your own style (and please do be sure that it is both
            safe and sane -- his rules do have purpose, and you must make sure that
            your style takes into account those reasons). Just don't get sucked into
            following JSLint only because the tool says you should. If you understand
            the reason behind the warning, and you know why you did something some way
            that the linter tells you you shouldn't... It's okay. It's okay to
            violate JSLint. It's okay to violate Crawford's style.

            It's only a style, by the way. It's not a bad style, by any means. It's a
            great way to teach uninformed programmers that what they are trying to do
            is far and away a bad thing to do -- and the tool will tell you that.

            For an experienced programmer, specifically one who knows what the rules
            are intended for, it's a little overkill. But then it's your job to decide
            if the rules are worth following or not. If you can determine that,
            knowing full well what the rule is designed to suggest *against*, yet you
            have a reason for it anyway, ... then just ignore that rule. You don't
            have to worry about hurting Crawford's feelings for doing so (he'll *never*
            feel bad about hurting your feelings).


            --- In jslint_com@yahoogroups.com, Tom Worster <fsb@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > i just think JSLint isn't for everyone.
            > >
            > > i had been using it with greater or lesser enthusiasm for years until,
            > > after watching the video of douglas' talk at txjs11 several times, i had
            > a
            > > blinding conversion. finally i saw that it doesn't matter what i think
            > > about code style. the only thing that matters is reducing the chance of
            > > bugs now and in the future while assuming that my code is going to be
            > > inherited by marginally competent programmers(*).
            > >
            > > before this conversion, JSLint would sometimes annoy me with its nagging.
            > > the annoyance would manifest something like "but i know what i'm doing"
            > or
            > > "but i don't like that" or "my version is better". now, whenever that
            > > feeling comes upon me i tell myself (sometimes out loud): "it doesn't
            > > matter what you prefer, tom, not even a little bit." and once i calm down
            > > i can usually see the wisdom of JSLint's suggestion.
            > >
            > > code is not design and programming is not the act of designing.
            > > programming is a dreadful business. i welcome anything that can improve
            > > the chance that the program will be and will remain correct.
            > >
            > > but obviously many programmers don't share my view. and JSLint isn't for
            > > everyone.
            > >
            > > and, btw, i liked one part of douglas' talk so much i transcribed it:
            > > http://thefsb.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/code-quality/
            > >
            > > (*) and when i'm really honest with myself i have to count myself among
            > > them.
            > >
            >
            >
            >


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