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Re: [jslint] member names outside ASCII but still in the Unicode Basic Multilingual Plane

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  • douglascrockford
    ... JSMin likes UTF-8.
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 6, 2012
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      --- In jslint_com@yahoogroups.com, Joshua Bell <inexorabletash@...> wrote:

      > Encoding is still a very real issue on the Web, and you don't want to find
      > out that your server thought your script file was UTF-8 while some browsers
      > thought your script file was Windows-1252 only after your code is in
      > production, so keeping your source code ASCII is still the best practice.
      >
      > Are the well known minification tools able to cope with non-ASCII input?

      JSMin likes UTF-8.
    • Tom Worster
      ... Meaning that one script such as öle = olé + 3; does different things in different countries? öle = olé + 3; This is done with new objects/functions ...
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 6, 2012
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        On 1/6/12 11:32 AM, "Joshua Bell" <inexorabletash@...> wrote:

        >On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 6:54 AM, Tom Worster <fsb@...> wrote:
        >
        >> **
        >>
        >>
        >> I like to program in Unicode (☭ = ☃ + π;) but I accept that there can be
        >> difficulties. One question is what collation JS should use to decide
        >> equivalence (according to Unicode, whether é is different from e depends
        >> on locale). Another is that Unicode offers different character
        >>sequences,
        >> and thus different byte strings, to represent the exact same thing (ö
        >>and
        >> ö look the same to me but the first is U+006F U+0308 the second is
        >>U+00F6).
        >>
        >
        >A Globalization API for JavaScript is under consideration on es-discuss,
        >for implementation by browser vendors as host objects and/or inclusion in
        >the next version of the ECMAScript standard as a module. I believe the
        >latest version of the proposal can be found at:
        >
        >http://norbertlindenberg.com/2011/11/ecmascript-globalization-api/index.ht
        >ml
        >
        >The current proposal includes support for locale-specific collation and
        >all
        >the Unicode-goodness you'd expect.

        Meaning that one script such as öle = olé + 3; does different things in
        different countries?

        öle = olé + 3;


        This is done with new objects/functions
        >- existing JavaScript string comparison operations remain unchanged (i.e.
        >continue to operate by ordinal comparison of the 16-bit elements of JS
        >strings)

        Strings are not the question. Identifiers.
      • Luke Page
        For a real world example, I ve seen a bug where an identifier had a с (crylic c) in it written by a russian coder which looked in most fonts the same as c..
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 6, 2012
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          For a real world example, I've seen a bug where an identifier had a с (crylic
          c) in it written by a russian coder which looked in most fonts the same as
          c..

          Still I think it would be nice to not just stamp western standards on
          programming.

          On 6 January 2012 18:02, Tom Worster <fsb@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > On 1/6/12 11:32 AM, "Joshua Bell" <inexorabletash@...> wrote:
          >
          > >On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 6:54 AM, Tom Worster <fsb@...> wrote:
          > >
          > >> **
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> I like to program in Unicode (☭ = ☃ + π;) but I accept that there can be
          > >> difficulties. One question is what collation JS should use to decide
          > >> equivalence (according to Unicode, whether é is different from e depends
          > >> on locale). Another is that Unicode offers different character
          > >>sequences,
          > >> and thus different byte strings, to represent the exact same thing (ö
          > >>and
          > >> ö look the same to me but the first is U+006F U+0308 the second is
          > >>U+00F6).
          > >>
          > >
          > >A Globalization API for JavaScript is under consideration on es-discuss,
          > >for implementation by browser vendors as host objects and/or inclusion in
          > >the next version of the ECMAScript standard as a module. I believe the
          > >latest version of the proposal can be found at:
          > >
          > >
          > http://norbertlindenberg.com/2011/11/ecmascript-globalization-api/index.ht
          > >ml
          > >
          > >The current proposal includes support for locale-specific collation and
          > >all
          > >the Unicode-goodness you'd expect.
          >
          > Meaning that one script such as öle = olé + 3; does different things in
          > different countries?
          >
          > öle = olé + 3;
          >
          > This is done with new objects/functions
          > >- existing JavaScript string comparison operations remain unchanged (i.e.
          > >continue to operate by ordinal comparison of the 16-bit elements of JS
          > >strings)
          >
          > Strings are not the question. Identifiers.
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • douglascrockford
          ... What are you trying to say? You gave us clear evidence of why it shouldn t accept both Cyrillic and Latin. So are you arguing that JSLint should only
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 6, 2012
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            --- In jslint_com@yahoogroups.com, Luke Page <luke.a.page@...> wrote:

            > For a real world example, I've seen a bug where an identifier had a с (crylic
            > c) in it written by a russian coder which looked in most fonts the same as
            > c..
            >
            > Still I think it would be nice to not just stamp western standards on
            > programming.


            What are you trying to say? You gave us clear evidence of why it shouldn't accept both Cyrillic and Latin. So are you arguing that JSLint should only accept Cyrillic?
          • Luke Page
            I m arguing in favour of the current situation.. for myself, working in English. I should have let someone else for whom it is of benefit argue for anything
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 6, 2012
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              I'm arguing in favour of the current situation.. for myself, working in
              English.

              I should have let someone else for whom it is of benefit argue for anything
              different.
              On Jan 6, 2012 9:26 PM, "douglascrockford" <douglas@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > --- In jslint_com@yahoogroups.com, Luke Page <luke.a.page@...> wrote:
              >
              > > For a real world example, I've seen a bug where an identifier had a �
              > (crylic
              > > c) in it written by a russian coder which looked in most fonts the same
              > as
              > > c..
              > >
              > > Still I think it would be nice to not just stamp western standards on
              > > programming.
              >
              > What are you trying to say? You gave us clear evidence of why it shouldn't
              > accept both Cyrillic and Latin. So are you arguing that JSLint should only
              > accept Cyrillic?
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Rob Richardson
              Programming in general is done in English. I m sorry to be the dumb American, but that s pretty much how it works. I ve heard from many international
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 7, 2012
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                Programming in general is done in English. I'm sorry to be the dumb
                American, but that's pretty much how it works. I've heard from many
                international programmers that using localized versions of developer tools
                or code documentation is ineffective, and that for as much as English is not
                their native tongue, English is their preferred programming metaphor. Thus
                constraining non-string content to ASCII only is likely not a hindrance to
                many. Perhaps the "bug" is that we've learned some since the book was
                published.

                Rob


                -----Original Message-----
                From: jslint_com@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jslint_com@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of Luke Page
                Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 2:40 PM
                To: jslint_com@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [jslint] member names outside ASCII but still in the Unicode
                Basic Multilingual Plane

                I'm arguing in favour of the current situation.. for myself, working in
                English.

                I should have let someone else for whom it is of benefit argue for anything
                different.
                On Jan 6, 2012 9:26 PM, "douglascrockford" <douglas@...> wrote:

                > **
                >
                >
                > --- In jslint_com@yahoogroups.com, Luke Page <luke.a.page@...> wrote:
                >
                > > For a real world example, I've seen a bug where an identifier had a
                > > Ñ
                > (crylic
                > > c) in it written by a russian coder which looked in most fonts the
                > > same
                > as
                > > c..
                > >
                > > Still I think it would be nice to not just stamp western standards
                > > on programming.
                >
                > What are you trying to say? You gave us clear evidence of why it
                > shouldn't accept both Cyrillic and Latin. So are you arguing that
                > JSLint should only accept Cyrillic?
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                ------------------------------------

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              • Brennan
                I m afraid that I don t accept that s the way it s always been or variants as a strong argument. Especially when exceptions can be so readily found. But OK,
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 24, 2012
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                  I'm afraid that I don't accept "that's the way it's always been" or
                  variants as a strong argument. Especially when exceptions can be so
                  readily found.
                  But OK, if I may restate the problem as I now understand it, with some
                  finer nuances:
                  We have a Latin "A" (U+0041) is distinct from the Cyrillic "А"
                  (U+0410) and the Greek alpha "Î`" (U+0391). They look identical, but
                  have different code points. So, going outside of ascii when naming
                  identifiers could cause name-mismatch bugs which would be very difficult
                  to spot. This is indeed a good reason for not accepting those
                  characters.
                  (They look identical as long as they haven't been mangled by passing
                  through some non-unicode system along the way, which appears to be
                  happening with some of the posts on this thread, and maybe this one too.
                  This is a separate problem, and should have no bearing on how jslint
                  behaves or ought to behave. BTW I notice that the web yahoo groups plain
                  text editor interface is not doing 'the right thing' to my non-ascii
                  chars when I preview this message, so I have switched to rich text.
                  Let's see what happens after I send it).
                  But while I respect the basic logic and simple pragmatism of rejecting
                  all non-ascii characters, there must surely be a subset of the basic
                  multilingual plane where the non-ascii glyphs do not resemble any
                  others, and therefore would be 'safe' to code with. Is this a reasonable
                  suggestion?
                  For example, I would like to feel free to use θ (lower case theta,
                  entity θ) for angles (as mathematicians have done for thousands of
                  years), and there are dozens of other non-ascii characters - mostly
                  Greek - which are conventionally used in various problem domains.
                  Theta appears four times in the basic multilingual plane:
                  Θ or entity Θ ( U+0398)θ or entity θ (U+03B8)Ï`
                  or entity ϑ (U+03D1)Ï´ or entity ϴ (U+03F4)
                  All four forms are clearly distinct from one another. To my eyes they
                  are at least as distinct as 1 and I and | and l or O and 0 in ascii. And
                  they do not resemble any other glyphs, least of all those found in
                  ascii.
                  I can see no good reason why such characters should not be tolerated by
                  jslint. (Except perhaps that jslint may be bloated with some kind of
                  lookup table, and - of course - some work always takes more time than no
                  work).
                  Another suggestion would be to make it an *option* to tolerate
                  characters that fall outside of ascii.
                  If I am so perversely traditional (or radical and progressive) that I
                  insist on using θ in my trigonometry script, then I would hope that
                  I know what I am doing. This is not a matter of having my feelings hurt.
                  Rather it seems misleading for jslint to tell me that I did something
                  'unexpected', when the truth of the matter is that I did something that
                  jslint does indeed expect would cause a very particular (but
                  unmentioned) problem. A problem which (in the case of θ) would never
                  happen.


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Tom Worster
                  ... this leads to a need for a standard resembles($char1, $char2) function. but resemblance is subjective. the ICU SpoofChecker?
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 24, 2012
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                    On 2/24/12 4:46 AM, "Brennan" <brennan@...> wrote:

                    >But while I respect the basic logic and simple pragmatism of rejecting
                    >all non-ascii characters, there must surely be a subset of the basic
                    >multilingual plane where the non-ascii glyphs do not resemble any
                    >others, and therefore would be 'safe' to code with. Is this a reasonable
                    >suggestion?

                    this leads to a need for a standard resembles($char1, $char2) function.
                    but resemblance is subjective.

                    the ICU SpoofChecker?
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