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Re: [Johnny Reb III: yahoo] JRiii Newbie Charge Revisitation

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  • cstevecarroll@aol.com
    In a message dated 01/07/2007 05:17:10 GMT Standard Time, jmkorten@gmail.com ... risk it? Hello James, That is exactly their purpose. As supporting units,
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 1, 2007
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      In a message dated 01/07/2007 05:17:10 GMT Standard Time, jmkorten@...
      writes:

      >Two inches away in order to confer a -1 DRM to a 2d6 impact roll? Why even
      risk it?
      Hello James,

      That is exactly their purpose. As supporting units, they aren't usually
      subject to any fire or morale checks, mitigate offensive strength at Impact and
      fight at half strength in any melee.


      > Especially, when the rules don't allow defending, supporting units to fire
      during the Charge >Phase.

      When it comes to Impact, even a -1 can sometimes save the day. Loss of
      Impact, even by just 1, is always far more disruptive to the defenders as they
      test as individual units.

      If they are within 2", you don't declare them to be in defensive support and
      lose the impact, then they are all considered charge targets, have to fight
      individually, often disordered by the unit ahead running through them and, as
      the charging unit is so close any defensive volley they do have stands a
      very good chance of going high.

      Its best use is an Infantry unit 2" behind an artillery battery. The
      artillery can fire at the charge and claim -1 for its Impact Dice. If unsupported
      its Impact is +8.

      Steve







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    • Robert Sweeney
      IMHO - co-ordinated charges are not worth the trouble. Both units suffer the same fate and the way I roll dice.... If I must charge a unit in order to gain a
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 1, 2007
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        IMHO - co-ordinated charges are not worth the trouble. Both units suffer the same fate and the way I roll dice.... If I must charge a unit in order to gain a precious piece of ground - I would do so with all the units charging seperately, mainly as all subsequent fire by the defender is at one less die (and thus less effective). To make a co-ordinated charge worthwhile (once again IMO) - the DRM of -1 should be PER STAND of the supporting unit(s). Bob S


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: James Korten <jmkorten@...>
        To: jriii@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2007 12:16:31 AM
        Subject: Re: [Johnny Reb III: yahoo] JRiii Newbie Charge Revisitation

        Hi Steve,

        Well, ok. Coordinated Charges. Now I see a case that all units in such a
        charge should be marked with "C" orders. (Pg 41, first sentence,Charge
        Resolution Overview) Another way of reading the rules is that if multiple
        units charge the same enemy unit and they are within 6'' they must make a
        coordinated charge. At the same time, the rules for what units can lend
        defensive support are more unclear b/c whereas before I tried to apply the
        same principle to both the defender and attacker, I'm not so sure I can
        anymore. Two inches away in order to confer a -1 DRM to a 2d6 impact roll
        ? Why even risk it ? Especially, when the rules don't allow defending,
        supporting units to fire during the Charge Phase and that must be house
        ruled into effect ?

        James

        On 6/30/07, Steve <cstevecarroll@ aol.com> wrote:
        >
        > Hello James,
        >
        > I have added any further responses throughout the message. As it is
        > getting a little long I have occasionally 'trimmed' it.
        >
        > SNIP
        >
        > >An artillery unit 'may not voluntarily move within 4 inches of
        > >enemy infantry, or 6 inches of hostile artillery or cavalry'
        >
        > SNIP
        > >
        > > OK. I see that now. Charge is considered in part a combination of
        > > normal mov't and bonus mov't (p.46) and is not classified as
        > >something entirely different from "movement". Therefore, units that
        > >are restricted from moving within certain distances of enemy units
        > >also cannot Charge those enemy units.
        >
        > Correct. (Fuentes D'Onoro not withstanding)
        >
        > >Units supporting a charging unit do not need to be marked with a
        > >Charge Order, but do need to be within 6'' of the charging unit.
        >
        > >Correct. They move with the "point" unit throughout (P41 Charge
        > >Resolution Overview 2). And share its order.
        >
        > SNIP
        >
        > > So, an infantry unit can FR against an enemy unit and then support
        > >a Charge directed at that same enemy unit provided it is within 6''
        > >of the charging unit?
        >
        > No. For a unit to support a charge, it 'follows the same order' as
        > the point unit and moves the same distance. If marked FR it cannot
        > move and so cannot support (except by its initial fire).
        >
        > > What if a unit supporting a Charge were marked with a Movement
        > > Order and that unit was not routed during the Charge ? Could they
        > >still move after the Charge Phase ?
        >
        > If referring to units offering offensive support. No.(See reply
        > above).
        >
        > If referring to units offering defensive support see below.
        >
        > >I guess the first line of pg.51 takes care of that. "all units
        > >marked Move or FM that have not had their *move compromised *by
        > >charges, first fires or untimely morale failures.... "
        >
        > This generally covers most defensive units.
        >
        > >Units supporting a charged unit need to be within 2'' in order to
        > >lend support and they can retain the order received in the Mark
        > >Orders Phase."
        >
        > >A slightly grey area perhaps. If I had a unit on Hold awaiting a
        > >charge, I would expect designated support units to be covered by the
        > >same order, faced, ordered and ready to meet the charge. (It's
        > >perhaps not entirely relevant, but even the reserve regiment in the
        > >example on P45 is on HOLD awaiting the attack.)
        >
        > >If the unit in question was within 2 inches and marked FR I would
        > >allow it to fire and support. If marked MOVE or FM (unless the order
        > >was changed to CH) I would not allow it to support.
        >
        > That again is my interpretation. If you want its support it shouldn't
        > be ordered to do anything different. And if the charge succeeds they
        > must then react individually with all the applicable modifiers.
        >
        > But that is only my interpretation of events. A charging unit plus
        > supports follows 1 order. I merely apply the same principle to the
        > defenders.
        >
        > > Basically, I see the principle as the same for both kinds of
        > >supporting units. Both can be marked with orders different from the
        > >Charging unit or Charged unit.
        >
        > No. You declare a charge with one single unit against another single
        > unit. If you wish units to charge in support they follow the same
        > order as the 'point' unit. If you wish units to offer defensive
        > support they should be ready to do so as charge movement preceeds
        > anything else. As the game now revolves as much around Brigades as
        > individual units you want them to act together. Also, if you have
        > command limitations you may well run out of orders if you try to do
        > too much.
        >
        > > I would agree that supporting, defending units marked M or FM
        > > could change their orders to CH after seeing that a friendly unit
        > >within 2'' is about to be charged.
        >
        > If you wish them to support why are you giving them M or FM orders?
        > They need to be within 2" of the charged unit at the start of the
        > move. Their own formation is irrelevant for the charge procedure
        > (except that those in skirmish cannot offer any support at all).
        >
        > Are you perhaps hoping that they can offer support and then if
        > victorious still move later?
        >
        > >But I don't think they would be FORCED to a CH unless they
        > >themselves are the declared Charged target.
        >
        > True. But as I say, I don't allow units to support unless following
        > the order of the defending unit. they then share the outcome with
        > that unit, whatever it may be.
        >
        > For units marked differently I don't count them as support and so it
        > constitutes a new charge.
        >
        > >I read the Forced CH pg. 38 "If the unit is charged" as applying to
        > >the Charge target, not the support units. Support units are
        > >involved in the Charge Phase, sequence and resolution, but are not
        > >Charging or being Charged.
        >
        > Initially it does apply to the Charge target. But, the supporting
        > units can become a Charge target themselves and so not be able to
        > give support and as they have a different order to the defending unit
        > I on't count them as in support.
        >
        > >Therefore, if the unit they are lending their support to repels the
        > >Charge, is the defending, supporting unit's Mov't/FM order still
        > >compromised" by the Charge ? I would argue not, and they could Move
        > or FM normally, mainly b/c they very well might not have moved at all.
        >
        > The key point here is 'if' the unit repels the charge! If so good
        > luck to you. If not, you could be in for a world of hurt.
        >
        > >I would also argue that a defending, supporting unit marked M or FM
        > >could fire during the Charge Phase without a H or CH or FR order.
        >
        > Argue as you like. According to the rules a unit marked FM now only
        > fires in the Moving Fire Phase. Units marked M 'normally fire at the
        > end of the turn'. Even a unit marked HOLD (unless charged) fires in
        > the Moving Fire Phase. If you wish to treat supporting units
        > differently then you are entirely at liberty to do so.
        >
        > >The reason I see it this way is b/c of the distinction in the rules
        > >between Charge Targets and Defending units. Charge Targets can be
        > >Forced to CH, receive support from friendly units in their defense
        > >and are basically the point of impact of that particular charge.
        >
        > Correct. But the support they receive is at impact. The Defensive
        > Volley preceeds this (and I apply this to only to one unit from
        > either side).
        >
        > >Then when it comes to the Defensive Volley p.47) "the defending*
        > >infantry or artillery rolls one die to see at which point he fires
        > >his defensive volley".
        >
        > Yes, this distance being measured from the defending unit (singular).
        >
        > >Suddenly it's about the defending unit and the attacking unit. Not
        > >the Charging and Charged unit.
        >
        > Semantics surely. It is all covered in the Charge Sequence, and you
        > should know by now who is attacking and who is defending. The
        > language is immaterial.
        >
        > >This is why I think Defensive Volley is a single dr applied to all
        > >defending, supporting units whether marked H, CH, FR, M or FM in a
        > >specific charge sequence.
        >
        > Page Reference please.
        >
        > >Granted, not all supporting units will fire in the Defensive Volley
        > >on the Charging unit, but they may very well have a supporting,
        > >attacking unit in front of them.
        >
        > The rules state both that the 'defending unit' fires and in what
        > phase other units may fire. That's good enough for me. You can
        > occasionally stop the units supporting the charge, usually with
        > artillery marked FR, other units having a limited range and field of
        > fire often can't generate the firepower needed. Otherwise, they take
        > half the casualties generated by the defender against the point
        > unit.
        >
        > > This interpretation, which is my newbie interpretation and which
        > >could very well be wrong, I think reflects the Charge Sequence of a
        > >particular charge as being very symbiotic... for lack of a better
        > >word. The Defensive Volley dr is applied to all the defending---
        > >charge target and support--units regardless of their particular
        > >orders because they are all supporting, defending and preoccupied
        > >with a particular charge... it somehow reflects, and captures, a
        > >mass gut reaction--for better or worse-- that military units can
        > >have to a particular situation.
        >
        > That presupposes military units have a mass gut reaction. You are the
        > one preoccupied with the charge, not necessarily your units. If you
        > have marked them M or FM, how are they preoccupied exactly?
        >
        > (Perhaps you would be better off playing JR2 where everything is done
        > by individual units).
        >
        > But if that is your interpretation, then you are free to go with it.
        > Set up a few charges, measure the angles and ranges involved and see
        > if it all works out as planned.
        >
        > >"Artillery within 2'' can act as a supporting unit to a charged
        > >unit, but do NOT confer a -1 impact DRM."
        >
        > >No. The whole point of a supporting unit is to give the -1 benefit.
        > >If it doesn't benefit the defender it isn't in support.
        >
        > > combined response below
        >
        > >"Defending, supporting units whether marked H, FR, CH, M, FM can
        > >fire as part of the Defensive Volley which is one die roll applied
        > >individually to all defending, supporting units and the charged
        > >unit."
        >
        > Again, Page reference please.
        >
        > >If this is the Defensive Volley referred to on P47 I would limit it
        > >to the unit being charged as 'Distance is measured from the
        > >defending unit' (Para 1 lines 2 and 3). The supporting units, in my
        > game would usually be marked HOLD and so would have to wait until
        > after the charge was resolved to fire (as per P34 HOLD line 2).
        > >
        > > Because I'm interpreting a rulebook distinction between Charge
        > >Target and Defending Unit, I would argue that the whole point of a
        > >supporting unit is not just to give a -1 impact DRM.
        >
        > And I would say that it is. A supporting unit gives a minus benefit
        > to the attacker or defender. That's it. If marked FR I allow fire
        > before the charge, but that is not 'support' for impact. Every
        > reference in the Charge sequence refers to either attacker (charger)
        > or defender in the singular. Don't complicate it with tenuous
        > distinctions.
        >
        > >That distinction comes up in the Defensive Volley P47 that you
        > >referenced. It also appears in the Impact section P49. It starts
        > >off by stating "Assuming the charging unit has survived the
        > >defensive fire and any resultant morale checks..." meaning assuming
        > >that we still have the same Charging Unit and Charge Target with
        > >all designated supporting units then we can roll for impact between
        > the Attacking and the Defending units.
        >
        > An unneccessary distinction. There is only ever one 'point' unit and
        > one defending unit. All else only ever offers impact support.
        >
        > > Basically, the distinction of Defensive Volley is carried over to
        > >Impact where all DRMS that apply to defending, supporting units and
        > >attacking, supporting units are tallied and the impact dice are
        > >thrown.
        >
        > I would say this is totally wrong, especially considering Summarized
        > Charge Resolution (P35), but again, Page Reference please.
        >
        > SNIP
        >
        > > It is for this reason that I think an artillery unit can also be
        > >designated as a defending support unit even though it doesn't confer
        > >a -1 DRM.
        >
        > By all means use it in support. It has no impact benefit and would
        > count as skirmishers in melee (which is a princely 1 - or 2 if
        > generous).
        > >
        > >The advantage of the Hold Order in a charge situation is the
        > >opportunity of making a In Order Infantry Counter-charge. "
        >
        > >If a unit marked HOLD is the charge target its advantage is in
        > >hopefully delivering a volley that will stop the charge in its
        > >tracks. Perhaps if out of ammunition a countercharge might be an
        > >option (this depends on if you allow such units to continue fighting
        > >(P12 Out of Ammo) or insist they retire to replenish it (P37 'For
        > >Ammunition' section). If the unit marked HOLD does countercharge it
        > must follow the procedure on P48.
        > >
        > > I would agree and say that that would be a Defensive Volley that
        > >could include defending, supporting units who are not necessarily on
        > >Hold or CH and are not necessarily firing on the Charging unit, but
        > >perhaps its support units.
        >
        > Again, that depends on your definition of what constitutes a
        > defensive volley.
        > >
        > SNIP
        >
        > >Got it. Skirmishers can't support.
        >
        > SNIP
        >
        > >"One thing that really seems odd is the possibility of a charging
        > unit receiving charge support from a friendly unit which is in front
        > of the charging unit, i.e. closer to the enemy ? In one post I think I
        > > read something about someone getting into a triple decker sandwich
        > melee in a single charge sequence ????"
        >
        > >I'm not sure how this is possible. Units charge in order of nearest
        > to furthest (P35 Charge).
        > > Regards, Steve
        > >
        > > To reframe the question, can a unit declare a Charge against an
        > >enemy unit if there is a friendly unit between it and the enemy unit
        > >it wants to Charge?
        >
        > Yes, see P39, but you might have to test its BMP for interpenetration.
        >
        > >Do friendly units between enemy units and other friendly units make
        > >those enemy units non-threatening due to zones of protection P36?
        >
        > It doesn't make them non-threatening, but shaky units can claim a
        > degree of protection, and as 'Each charging unit designates its
        > charge target' according to the principles described on P46 they may
        > well be safe from being charged.
        >
        > >Can the unit nearer the enemy--not charging---still support the
        > >Charging unit which is behind it?
        >
        > To do so, the designated 'point' unit must lead the charge and the
        > original nearer unit must end up behind it and be able to follow it
        > in.
        > >
        > > James
        > >
        > > PS It was Baron Grenville, not Lord North, who was the architect of
        > > Britain's counter-Napoleonic strategy. The Grenvilles and the
        > Norths had close relations.
        >
        > Typically incestuous British aristocracy for you!
        >
        > > > A slightly grey area perhaps. If I had a unit on Hold awaiting a
        > > > charge, I would expect designated support units to be covered by
        > > > the same order, faced, ordered and ready to meet the charge.
        > > >(It's perhaps not entirely relevant, but even the reserve regiment
        > > > in the example on P45 is on HOLD awaiting the attack.)
        > > >
        > > > If the unit in question was within 2 inches and marked FR I would
        > > > allow it to fire and support. If marked MOVE or FM (unless the
        > > > order was changed to CH) I would not allow it to support. If the
        > > > charge succeeded and could contact them I would use the Forced
        > > > Conditional Hold procedure on P38.
        >
        > This as I say is my take on the rules. I think an 'Ask John Hill' is
        > in order here for absolute clarity.
        >
        > Namely, do units designated as in support of a charge follow the same
        > order as the point unit. Do units designated as in support of the
        > defending unit also follow the same order as it?
        >
        >
        >

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      • cstevecarroll@aol.com
        In a message dated 01/07/2007 14:41:36 GMT Standard Time, limbolance@yahoo.com writes: IMHO - co-ordinated charges are not worth the trouble. Both units
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 1, 2007
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          In a message dated 01/07/2007 14:41:36 GMT Standard Time,
          limbolance@... writes:

          IMHO - co-ordinated charges are not worth the trouble. Both units suffer the
          same fate and the way I roll dice.... If I must charge a unit in order to
          gain a precious piece of ground - I would do so with all the units charging
          seperately,
          Ha, tell me about it. I sent a 4 Rgt. brigade in against a regiment behind a
          wall. They threw it back shaken, followed up disordered but didn't catch it
          for melee. The officer was killed. The lead regiment routed as a result, the
          second went shaken, the other two were left leaderless and disordered!

          Steve











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        • Malcolm Sleight
          Charges tend to be iffy - whether supported or not. Due to the vagaries of dice rolling, even the -1 per supporting unit can be helpful. I played in a game @
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 1, 2007
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            Charges tend to be "iffy" - whether supported or not.
            Due to the vagaries of dice rolling, even the -1 per supporting unit can be helpful.
            I played in a game @ our local convention yesterday - "Warparty".
            The game was very close - even @ the end.
            Surprisingly, there were probably at least 12 charges declared during the game.
            I myself, declared 3 or 4 charges - all successful (fortunately).
            I think 80% of the declared charges on our side were successful.
            Whereas, only 20% were successful for the opponents.
            The one charge that I really needed to succeed with I declared supported.

            Supported charges are a call for the moment.
            If you feel that you can live with being stopped and falling back - don't support.Malc.


            To: jriii@yahoogroups.comFrom: cstevecarroll@...: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 09:57:15 -0400Subject: Re: [Johnny Reb III: yahoo] JRiii Newbie Charge Revisitation




            In a message dated 01/07/2007 14:41:36 GMT Standard Time, limbolance@... writes:IMHO - co-ordinated charges are not worth the trouble. Both units suffer the same fate and the way I roll dice.... If I must charge a unit in order to gain a precious piece of ground - I would do so with all the units charging seperately, Ha, tell me about it. I sent a 4 Rgt. brigade in against a regiment behind a wall. They threw it back shaken, followed up disordered but didn't catch it for melee. The officer was killed. The lead regiment routed as a result, the second went shaken, the other two were left leaderless and disordered!Steve[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          • jmrflyer@aol.com
            i prefer uncoordinated charges myself, especially since my die rolls leave something to be desired. I try to be good cos I ain t all that lucky.
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 1, 2007
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              i prefer uncoordinated charges myself, especially since my die rolls leave
              something to be desired. I try to be good cos I ain't all that lucky.



              ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


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            • cstevecarroll@aol.com
              In a message dated 01/07/2007 17:05:27 GMT Standard Time, jmrflyer@aol.com writes: i prefer uncoordinated charges myself, especially since my die rolls leave
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 1, 2007
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                In a message dated 01/07/2007 17:05:27 GMT Standard Time, jmrflyer@...
                writes:

                i prefer uncoordinated charges myself, especially since my die rolls leave
                something to be desired.
                At least with a co-ordinated charge, you only get to throw one bad roll.


                In JR2, the only ways to get a co-ordinated charge were either Brigade
                Column or Wave Assault.

                Brigade Column is still in JR3 with very similar advantages and
                disadvantages (and probably used about as often).

                Wave Assault seems to have been replaced by the co-ordinated charge, but the
                allowed distance between units is increased from 2" to 6" which has always
                seemed to me to be far too large.

                Any comments?

                Steve






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              • Norris Darrall
                ... Jack Benny (I think most folks will recognize the name) said that Timing is everything . Well it is that way with charges. Usually if I charge, one of us
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 1, 2007
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                  --- In jriii@yahoogroups.com, cstevecarroll@... wrote:
                  >
                  Jack Benny (I think most folks will recognize the name) said
                  that "Timing is everything". Well it is that way with charges.
                  Usually if I charge, one of us is in trouble; my opponent is
                  understrength, out of position, shaken already or I am in deep doo-doo
                  and need to buy time. I tend to charge with one unit and move another
                  into the hole he made going in or coming out (most of my charges tend
                  to have my charging unit coming out, dice thing).
                • James Korten
                  Hi Steve, Your question... * This as I say is my take on the rules. I think an Ask John Hill is in order here for absolute clarity. Namely, do units
                  Message 8 of 12 , Aug 24, 2007
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                    Hi Steve,

                    Your question...

                    *"This as I say is my take on the rules. I think an 'Ask John Hill' is
                    in order here for absolute clarity.

                    Namely, do units designated as in support of a charge follow the same
                    order as the point unit. Do units designated as in support of the
                    defending unit also follow the same order as it? "
                    *

                    Answer as per Issue 16 of Charge!

                    *"Since this is considered to be one single charge, the supporting units are
                    bound by the same charge order as the lead unit... "*

                    Units supporting a defending, charged unit need not be bound by the "follow
                    the same order" clause as units supporting a charging, lead unit.
                    Therefore, units marked FM or M can lend support to a defending, charged
                    unit.

                    James



                    On 6/30/07, Steve <cstevecarroll@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello James,
                    >
                    > I have added any further responses throughout the message. As it is
                    > getting a little long I have occasionally 'trimmed' it.
                    >
                    > SNIP
                    >
                    > >An artillery unit 'may not voluntarily move within 4 inches of
                    > >enemy infantry, or 6 inches of hostile artillery or cavalry'
                    >
                    > SNIP
                    > >
                    > > OK. I see that now. Charge is considered in part a combination of
                    > > normal mov't and bonus mov't (p.46) and is not classified as
                    > >something entirely different from "movement". Therefore, units that
                    > >are restricted from moving within certain distances of enemy units
                    > >also cannot Charge those enemy units.
                    >
                    > Correct. (Fuentes D'Onoro not withstanding)
                    >
                    > >Units supporting a charging unit do not need to be marked with a
                    > >Charge Order, but do need to be within 6'' of the charging unit.
                    >
                    > >Correct. They move with the "point" unit throughout (P41 Charge
                    > >Resolution Overview 2). And share its order.
                    >
                    > SNIP
                    >
                    > > So, an infantry unit can FR against an enemy unit and then support
                    > >a Charge directed at that same enemy unit provided it is within 6''
                    > >of the charging unit?
                    >
                    > No. For a unit to support a charge, it 'follows the same order' as
                    > the point unit and moves the same distance. If marked FR it cannot
                    > move and so cannot support (except by its initial fire).
                    >
                    > > What if a unit supporting a Charge were marked with a Movement
                    > > Order and that unit was not routed during the Charge ? Could they
                    > >still move after the Charge Phase ?
                    >
                    > If referring to units offering offensive support. No.(See reply
                    > above).
                    >
                    > If referring to units offering defensive support see below.
                    >
                    > >I guess the first line of pg.51 takes care of that. "all units
                    > >marked Move or FM that have not had their *move compromised *by
                    > >charges, first fires or untimely morale failures...."
                    >
                    > This generally covers most defensive units.
                    >
                    > >Units supporting a charged unit need to be within 2'' in order to
                    > >lend support and they can retain the order received in the Mark
                    > >Orders Phase."
                    >
                    > >A slightly grey area perhaps. If I had a unit on Hold awaiting a
                    > >charge, I would expect designated support units to be covered by the
                    > >same order, faced, ordered and ready to meet the charge. (It's
                    > >perhaps not entirely relevant, but even the reserve regiment in the
                    > >example on P45 is on HOLD awaiting the attack.)
                    >
                    > >If the unit in question was within 2 inches and marked FR I would
                    > >allow it to fire and support. If marked MOVE or FM (unless the order
                    > >was changed to CH) I would not allow it to support.
                    >
                    > That again is my interpretation. If you want its support it shouldn't
                    > be ordered to do anything different. And if the charge succeeds they
                    > must then react individually with all the applicable modifiers.
                    >
                    > But that is only my interpretation of events. A charging unit plus
                    > supports follows 1 order. I merely apply the same principle to the
                    > defenders.
                    >
                    > > Basically, I see the principle as the same for both kinds of
                    > >supporting units. Both can be marked with orders different from the
                    > >Charging unit or Charged unit.
                    >
                    > No. You declare a charge with one single unit against another single
                    > unit. If you wish units to charge in support they follow the same
                    > order as the 'point' unit. If you wish units to offer defensive
                    > support they should be ready to do so as charge movement preceeds
                    > anything else. As the game now revolves as much around Brigades as
                    > individual units you want them to act together. Also, if you have
                    > command limitations you may well run out of orders if you try to do
                    > too much.
                    >
                    > > I would agree that supporting, defending units marked M or FM
                    > > could change their orders to CH after seeing that a friendly unit
                    > >within 2'' is about to be charged.
                    >
                    > If you wish them to support why are you giving them M or FM orders?
                    > They need to be within 2" of the charged unit at the start of the
                    > move. Their own formation is irrelevant for the charge procedure
                    > (except that those in skirmish cannot offer any support at all).
                    >
                    > Are you perhaps hoping that they can offer support and then if
                    > victorious still move later?
                    >
                    > >But I don't think they would be FORCED to a CH unless they
                    > >themselves are the declared Charged target.
                    >
                    > True. But as I say, I don't allow units to support unless following
                    > the order of the defending unit. they then share the outcome with
                    > that unit, whatever it may be.
                    >
                    > For units marked differently I don't count them as support and so it
                    > constitutes a new charge.
                    >
                    > >I read the Forced CH pg. 38 "If the unit is charged" as applying to
                    > >the Charge target, not the support units. Support units are
                    > >involved in the Charge Phase, sequence and resolution, but are not
                    > >Charging or being Charged.
                    >
                    > Initially it does apply to the Charge target. But, the supporting
                    > units can become a Charge target themselves and so not be able to
                    > give support and as they have a different order to the defending unit
                    > I on't count them as in support.
                    >
                    > >Therefore, if the unit they are lending their support to repels the
                    > >Charge, is the defending, supporting unit's Mov't/FM order still
                    > >compromised" by the Charge ? I would argue not, and they could Move
                    > or FM normally, mainly b/c they very well might not have moved at all.
                    >
                    > The key point here is 'if' the unit repels the charge! If so good
                    > luck to you. If not, you could be in for a world of hurt.
                    >
                    > >I would also argue that a defending, supporting unit marked M or FM
                    > >could fire during the Charge Phase without a H or CH or FR order.
                    >
                    > Argue as you like. According to the rules a unit marked FM now only
                    > fires in the Moving Fire Phase. Units marked M 'normally fire at the
                    > end of the turn'. Even a unit marked HOLD (unless charged) fires in
                    > the Moving Fire Phase. If you wish to treat supporting units
                    > differently then you are entirely at liberty to do so.
                    >
                    > >The reason I see it this way is b/c of the distinction in the rules
                    > >between Charge Targets and Defending units. Charge Targets can be
                    > >Forced to CH, receive support from friendly units in their defense
                    > >and are basically the point of impact of that particular charge.
                    >
                    > Correct. But the support they receive is at impact. The Defensive
                    > Volley preceeds this (and I apply this to only to one unit from
                    > either side).
                    >
                    > >Then when it comes to the Defensive Volley p.47) "the defending*
                    > >infantry or artillery rolls one die to see at which point he fires
                    > >his defensive volley".
                    >
                    > Yes, this distance being measured from the defending unit (singular).
                    >
                    > >Suddenly it's about the defending unit and the attacking unit. Not
                    > >the Charging and Charged unit.
                    >
                    > Semantics surely. It is all covered in the Charge Sequence, and you
                    > should know by now who is attacking and who is defending. The
                    > language is immaterial.
                    >
                    > >This is why I think Defensive Volley is a single dr applied to all
                    > >defending, supporting units whether marked H, CH, FR, M or FM in a
                    > >specific charge sequence.
                    >
                    > Page Reference please.
                    >
                    > >Granted, not all supporting units will fire in the Defensive Volley
                    > >on the Charging unit, but they may very well have a supporting,
                    > >attacking unit in front of them.
                    >
                    > The rules state both that the 'defending unit' fires and in what
                    > phase other units may fire. That's good enough for me. You can
                    > occasionally stop the units supporting the charge, usually with
                    > artillery marked FR, other units having a limited range and field of
                    > fire often can't generate the firepower needed. Otherwise, they take
                    > half the casualties generated by the defender against the point
                    > unit.
                    >
                    > > This interpretation, which is my newbie interpretation and which
                    > >could very well be wrong, I think reflects the Charge Sequence of a
                    > >particular charge as being very symbiotic... for lack of a better
                    > >word. The Defensive Volley dr is applied to all the defending---
                    > >charge target and support--units regardless of their particular
                    > >orders because they are all supporting, defending and preoccupied
                    > >with a particular charge... it somehow reflects, and captures, a
                    > >mass gut reaction--for better or worse-- that military units can
                    > >have to a particular situation.
                    >
                    > That presupposes military units have a mass gut reaction. You are the
                    > one preoccupied with the charge, not necessarily your units. If you
                    > have marked them M or FM, how are they preoccupied exactly?
                    >
                    > (Perhaps you would be better off playing JR2 where everything is done
                    > by individual units).
                    >
                    > But if that is your interpretation, then you are free to go with it.
                    > Set up a few charges, measure the angles and ranges involved and see
                    > if it all works out as planned.
                    >
                    > >"Artillery within 2'' can act as a supporting unit to a charged
                    > >unit, but do NOT confer a -1 impact DRM."
                    >
                    > >No. The whole point of a supporting unit is to give the -1 benefit.
                    > >If it doesn't benefit the defender it isn't in support.
                    >
                    > > combined response below
                    >
                    > >"Defending, supporting units whether marked H, FR, CH, M, FM can
                    > >fire as part of the Defensive Volley which is one die roll applied
                    > >individually to all defending, supporting units and the charged
                    > >unit."
                    >
                    > Again, Page reference please.
                    >
                    > >If this is the Defensive Volley referred to on P47 I would limit it
                    > >to the unit being charged as 'Distance is measured from the
                    > >defending unit' (Para 1 lines 2 and 3). The supporting units, in my
                    > game would usually be marked HOLD and so would have to wait until
                    > after the charge was resolved to fire (as per P34 HOLD line 2).
                    > >
                    > > Because I'm interpreting a rulebook distinction between Charge
                    > >Target and Defending Unit, I would argue that the whole point of a
                    > >supporting unit is not just to give a -1 impact DRM.
                    >
                    > And I would say that it is. A supporting unit gives a minus benefit
                    > to the attacker or defender. That's it. If marked FR I allow fire
                    > before the charge, but that is not 'support' for impact. Every
                    > reference in the Charge sequence refers to either attacker (charger)
                    > or defender in the singular. Don't complicate it with tenuous
                    > distinctions.
                    >
                    > >That distinction comes up in the Defensive Volley P47 that you
                    > >referenced. It also appears in the Impact section P49. It starts
                    > >off by stating "Assuming the charging unit has survived the
                    > >defensive fire and any resultant morale checks..." meaning assuming
                    > >that we still have the same Charging Unit and Charge Target with
                    > >all designated supporting units then we can roll for impact between
                    > the Attacking and the Defending units.
                    >
                    > An unneccessary distinction. There is only ever one 'point' unit and
                    > one defending unit. All else only ever offers impact support.
                    >
                    > > Basically, the distinction of Defensive Volley is carried over to
                    > >Impact where all DRMS that apply to defending, supporting units and
                    > >attacking, supporting units are tallied and the impact dice are
                    > >thrown.
                    >
                    > I would say this is totally wrong, especially considering Summarized
                    > Charge Resolution (P35), but again, Page Reference please.
                    >
                    > SNIP
                    >
                    > > It is for this reason that I think an artillery unit can also be
                    > >designated as a defending support unit even though it doesn't confer
                    > >a -1 DRM.
                    >
                    > By all means use it in support. It has no impact benefit and would
                    > count as skirmishers in melee (which is a princely 1 - or 2 if
                    > generous).
                    > >
                    > >The advantage of the Hold Order in a charge situation is the
                    > >opportunity of making a In Order Infantry Counter-charge."
                    >
                    > >If a unit marked HOLD is the charge target its advantage is in
                    > >hopefully delivering a volley that will stop the charge in its
                    > >tracks. Perhaps if out of ammunition a countercharge might be an
                    > >option (this depends on if you allow such units to continue fighting
                    > >(P12 Out of Ammo) or insist they retire to replenish it (P37 'For
                    > >Ammunition' section). If the unit marked HOLD does countercharge it
                    > must follow the procedure on P48.
                    > >
                    > > I would agree and say that that would be a Defensive Volley that
                    > >could include defending, supporting units who are not necessarily on
                    > >Hold or CH and are not necessarily firing on the Charging unit, but
                    > >perhaps its support units.
                    >
                    > Again, that depends on your definition of what constitutes a
                    > defensive volley.
                    > >
                    > SNIP
                    >
                    > >Got it. Skirmishers can't support.
                    >
                    > SNIP
                    >
                    > >"One thing that really seems odd is the possibility of a charging
                    > unit receiving charge support from a friendly unit which is in front
                    > of the charging unit, i.e. closer to the enemy ? In one post I think I
                    > > read something about someone getting into a triple decker sandwich
                    > melee in a single charge sequence ????"
                    >
                    > >I'm not sure how this is possible. Units charge in order of nearest
                    > to furthest (P35 Charge).
                    > > Regards, Steve
                    > >
                    > > To reframe the question, can a unit declare a Charge against an
                    > >enemy unit if there is a friendly unit between it and the enemy unit
                    > >it wants to Charge?
                    >
                    > Yes, see P39, but you might have to test its BMP for interpenetration.
                    >
                    > >Do friendly units between enemy units and other friendly units make
                    > >those enemy units non-threatening due to zones of protection P36?
                    >
                    > It doesn't make them non-threatening, but shaky units can claim a
                    > degree of protection, and as 'Each charging unit designates its
                    > charge target' according to the principles described on P46 they may
                    > well be safe from being charged.
                    >
                    > >Can the unit nearer the enemy--not charging---still support the
                    > >Charging unit which is behind it?
                    >
                    > To do so, the designated 'point' unit must lead the charge and the
                    > original nearer unit must end up behind it and be able to follow it
                    > in.
                    > >
                    > > James
                    > >
                    > > PS It was Baron Grenville, not Lord North, who was the architect of
                    > > Britain's counter-Napoleonic strategy. The Grenvilles and the
                    > Norths had close relations.
                    >
                    > Typically incestuous British aristocracy for you!
                    >
                    > > > A slightly grey area perhaps. If I had a unit on Hold awaiting a
                    > > > charge, I would expect designated support units to be covered by
                    > > > the same order, faced, ordered and ready to meet the charge.
                    > > >(It's perhaps not entirely relevant, but even the reserve regiment
                    > > > in the example on P45 is on HOLD awaiting the attack.)
                    > > >
                    > > > If the unit in question was within 2 inches and marked FR I would
                    > > > allow it to fire and support. If marked MOVE or FM (unless the
                    > > > order was changed to CH) I would not allow it to support. If the
                    > > > charge succeeded and could contact them I would use the Forced
                    > > > Conditional Hold procedure on P38.
                    >
                    > This as I say is my take on the rules. I think an 'Ask John Hill' is
                    > in order here for absolute clarity.
                    >
                    > Namely, do units designated as in support of a charge follow the same
                    > order as the point unit. Do units designated as in support of the
                    > defending unit also follow the same order as it?
                    >
                    >
                    >


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