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Baby wipes

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  • Bronco
    I buried a baby wipe, four inches deep, in my back yard, on Feb. 18th. Today it is 95% decomposed. This is in Hawaii. I would expect a much slower rate of
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 6, 2010
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      I buried a baby wipe, four inches deep, in my back yard, on Feb. 18th. Today it is 95% decomposed. This is in Hawaii. I would expect a much slower rate of decomposition in the Sierras.
    • dc t
      I wouldn t do it.  The environment is such that any impact that we make along the JMT will take years to recover from.  I would suspect, based on the climate
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 6, 2010
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        I wouldn't do it.  The environment is such that any impact that we make along the JMT will take years to recover from.  I would suspect, based on the climate up there that if you were to bury those baby wipes, they would be there several years later.  I would suspect that those wipes have synthetics in the fibers.  The ecosystem is extremely fragile along the JMT.  I wouldn't do it.

        --- On Sun, 6/6/10, Bronco <dawgbronco@...> wrote:

        From: Bronco <dawgbronco@...>
        Subject: [John Muir Trail] Baby wipes
        To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 2:21 AM

         
        I buried a baby wipe, four inches deep, in my back yard, on Feb. 18th. Today it is 95% decomposed. This is in Hawaii. I would expect a much slower rate of decomposition in the Sierras.


      • John Ladd
        I agree with dc t I suppose some of it is knee-jerk environmentalism. But also, the JMT is such a heavily-travelled trail that things you probably can get
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 6, 2010
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          I agree with dc t

          I suppose some of it is knee-jerk environmentalism.  But also, the JMT is such a heavily-travelled trail that things you probably can get away with on other trails -- e.g., burying your baby wipes -- cause problems on the JMT due to the fact that so many other people are likely to do the same thing and so many following hikers will be affected.

          Once you get in the "carry it in, carry it out" habit, it is really not all that hard.  Just pack some things in baggies.  As you sue up the contents, use the baggies to carry other things out.  The weight is trivial, and once it becomes habitual, it's not a chore.  And you can feel all warm and cuddly about it.

          I do think that it is likely BabyWipe (or toilet paper) degradation patterns in Hawaii -- or even in the SF Bay Area -- would be very different in the Sierra.  I suspect that degradation is caused by microbes in the soil and the hostile environment of the Sierra winters (especially at or above treeline) make for a very different microbial pattern under the soil.

          I do see visible TP residue from time to time along the JMT (that I assume was originally at least minimally buried). It's pretty unpleasant.  I assume baby wipes would be more resistant to decay than toilet paper, and therefore are going to last longer.  When it resurfaces and the next hiker comes along, s/he's unlikely to inspect it closely enough to know that it is "only" a baby wipe.  So I think I'd make other people's hikes less pleasant by leaving baby wipes behind me.  Even if it persists for only a season or two, that's a lot of people whose trips are made a bit less pleasant.

          John Curran Ladd
          1616 Castro Street
          San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
          415-648-9279


        • Todd Sharp
          Here is some info that I found that shows (in this article anyway) what goes into them.   The material used in baby wipes is a non-woven fabric similar to
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 6, 2010
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            Here is some info that I found that shows (in this article anyway) what goes into them.
             
            "The material used in baby wipes is a non-woven fabric similar to the type used in diapers and dryer sheets. Traditional fabrics are made by weaving together fibers of silk, cotton, polyester, wool, and similar materials to form an interlocking matrix of loops. Non-woven fabrics, on the other hand, are made by a process that presses a single sheet of material from a mass of separate fibers. Fibers, such as cotton and rayon, are used in this process, as well as plastic resins like polyester, polyethylene, and polypropylene"
             
             

          • Bronco
            Gee, guys, back away from the compost pile and lay down your trowels. I did an experiment out of curiosity and relayed the results here. I m a paper towel fan
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 6, 2010
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              Gee, guys, back away from the compost pile and lay down your trowels. I did an experiment out of curiosity and relayed the results here. I'm a paper towel fan on the trail. I burn and bury. I'm a relic; a pre-hike high-colonic Druid from the Sixties. I've shaken enough used leaves out of my underwear to fill a 3-man tent. Remember Moon Tang?

              --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, dc t <dc_t63@...> wrote:
              >
              > I wouldn't do it.  The environment is such that any impact that we make along the JMT will take years to recover from.  I would suspect, based on the climate up there that if you were to bury those baby wipes, they would be there several years later.  I would suspect that those wipes have synthetics in the fibers.  The ecosystem is extremely fragile along the JMT.  I wouldn't do it.
              >
              > --- On Sun, 6/6/10, Bronco <dawgbronco@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: Bronco <dawgbronco@...>
              > Subject: [John Muir Trail] Baby wipes
              > To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 2:21 AM
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > I buried a baby wipe, four inches deep, in my back yard, on Feb. 18th. Today it is 95% decomposed. This is in Hawaii. I would expect a much slower rate of decomposition in the Sierras.
              >
            • robert shattuck
              Sunday and I haven t had my shower yet, so I m a little grumpy, but come on . . . baby wipes . . . you re gonna (B) pack a bunch of wet, heavy baby-wipes in
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 6, 2010
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                Sunday and I haven't had my shower yet, so I'm a little grumpy, but come on . . . baby wipes . . . you're gonna (B) pack a bunch of wet, heavy baby-wipes in and then (B) bury them . . . or no doubt try and burn them? 

                This should almost not even be a topic of discussion. It should just be VERY understood. Perhaps instead of issuing permits, they should issue tests to all prospective hikers––fail the test and then get back in your car, go home. 

                if you're going to go to the extravagance of carrying and using something like baby-wipes––then you should pay for the luxury by packing them out. 

                You should already be packing out your used TP, so what's a few baby wipes. such an indulgence. I could see a few wipes on the trail if you're a woman and need to keep things clean, but still––bury or burning your trash is so selfish and abusive––it's like an oil-spill in the sierra and we don't need to look at it, or find it. 

                with the amount of traffic out there, whenever you get to any kind of a camp spot, you can pretty much assume that anything within a hundred feet of it, has been used for someone's toilet. 

                You can walk around and just look at the many rocks and no doubt, choose the ones that have been turned and used as toilets and then . . . usually, there's a tell-tale chunk of TP poking out . . . and while they were at it, they thought they'd just add in that candy bar wrapper . . . 

                if you've got the time and inclination to sit around and bury toilet paper in your backyard, just to watch it decompose, then think a little harder, or maybe up the stakes and just start taking dumps in your backyard and seeing how long they take and pretty they are . . . 

                Not trying to be mean or abusive here, but some suggestions are just plain stupid and should be put down immediately and those of you caught up in the oh so pretty convenience of all the junk we have at hand in this world––like baby wipes, that you can bury six inches under the soil and forget about (kinda like all that oil in the gulf that we can't see) well . . . 

                it's a back-country mantra that bears repeating––something to the tune of, leave only footprints . . . not baby-wipes. 


                BOB
                http://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480






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              • Bronco
                Thanks for the uncalled for dressing down, Bob. Methinks you read too much into my report. Had I posted the results of comparing lead boots to wooden shoes,
                Message 7 of 13 , Jun 6, 2010
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                  Thanks for the uncalled for dressing down, Bob. Methinks you read too much into my report. Had I posted the results of comparing lead boots to wooden shoes, would you also make that mighty leap to another wrong conclusion? Try showering before bedtime; maybe you'll forgo the grumpiness. Peace.

                  --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, robert shattuck <bobolonius@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Sunday and I haven't had my shower yet, so I'm a little grumpy, but come on . . . baby wipes . . . you're gonna (B) pack a bunch of wet, heavy baby-wipes in and then (B) bury them . . . or no doubt try and burn them?
                  > This should almost not even be a topic of discussion. It should just be VERY understood. Perhaps instead of issuing permits, they should issue tests to all prospective hikers––fail the test and then get back in your car, go home.
                  >
                  > if you're going to go to the extravagance of carrying and using something like baby-wipes––then you should pay for the luxury by packing them out.
                  > You should already be packing out your used TP, so what's a few baby wipes. such an indulgence. I could see a few wipes on the trail if you're a woman and need to keep things clean, but still––bury or burning your trash is so selfish and abusive––it's like an oil-spill in the sierra and we don't need to look at it, or find it.
                  > with the amount of traffic out there, whenever you get to any kind of a camp spot, you can pretty much assume that anything within a hundred feet of it, has been used for someone's toilet.
                  > You can walk around and just look at the many rocks and no doubt, choose the ones that have been turned and used as toilets and then . . . usually, there's a tell-tale chunk of TP poking out . . . and while they were at it, they thought they'd just add in that candy bar wrapper . . .
                  > if you've got the time and inclination to sit around and bury toilet paper in your backyard, just to watch it decompose, then think a little harder, or maybe up the stakes and just start taking dumps in your backyard and seeing how long they take and pretty they are . . .
                  > Not trying to be mean or abusive here, but some suggestions are just plain stupid and should be put down immediately and those of you caught up in the oh so pretty convenience of all the junk we have at hand in this world––like baby wipes, that you can bury six inches under the soil and forget about (kinda like all that oil in the gulf that we can't see) well . . .
                  > it's a back-country mantra that bears repeating––something to the tune of, leave only footprints . . . not baby-wipes.
                  >
                  >
                  > BOBhttp://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480
                  >
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                  > _________________________________________________________________
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                • ed_rodriguez52@yahoo.com
                  I am carrying a plastic bucket that am planning to use to do my laundry, dishes and more important at the end of a long day is to rinse my self offf with a
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jun 6, 2010
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                    I am carrying a plastic bucket that am planning to use to do my laundry, dishes and more important at the end of a long day is to rinse my self offf with a towel

                    Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®


                    From: "Bronco" <dawgbronco@...>
                    Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 21:45:47 -0000
                    To: <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Baby wipes . . . YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING . . .

                     

                    Thanks for the uncalled for dressing down, Bob. Methinks you read too much into my report. Had I posted the results of comparing lead boots to wooden shoes, would you also make that mighty leap to another wrong conclusion? Try showering before bedtime; maybe you'll forgo the grumpiness. Peace.

                    --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, robert shattuck <bobolonius@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Sunday and I haven't had my shower yet, so I'm a little grumpy, but come on . . . baby wipes . . . you're gonna (B) pack a bunch of wet, heavy baby-wipes in and then (B) bury them . . . or no doubt try and burn them?
                    > This should almost not even be a topic of discussion. It should just be VERY understood. Perhaps instead of issuing permits, they should issue tests to all prospective hikers––fail the test and then get back in your car, go home.
                    >
                    > if you're going to go to the extravagance of carrying and using something like baby-wipes––then you should pay for the luxury by packing them out.
                    > You should already be packing out your used TP, so what's a few baby wipes. such an indulgence. I could see a few wipes on the trail if you're a woman and need to keep things clean, but still––bury or burning your trash is so selfish and abusive––it's like an oil-spill in the sierra and we don't need to look at it, or find it.
                    > with the amount of traffic out there, whenever you get to any kind of a camp spot, you can pretty much assume that anything within a hundred feet of it, has been used for someone's toilet.
                    > You can walk around and just look at the many rocks and no doubt, choose the ones that have been turned and used as toilets and then . . . usually, there's a tell-tale chunk of TP poking out . . . and while they were at it, they thought they'd just add in that candy bar wrapper . . .
                    > if you've got the time and inclination to sit around and bury toilet paper in your backyard, just to watch it decompose, then think a little harder, or maybe up the stakes and just start taking dumps in your backyard and seeing how long they take and pretty they are . . .
                    > Not trying to be mean or abusive here, but some suggestions are just plain stupid and should be put down immediately and those of you caught up in the oh so pretty convenience of all the junk we have at hand in this world––like baby wipes, that you can bury six inches under the soil and forget about (kinda like all that oil in the gulf that we can't see) well . . .
                    > it's a back-country mantra that bears repeating––something to the tune of, leave only footprints . . . not baby-wipes.
                    >
                    >
                    > BOBhttp://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >__________________________________________________________
                    > The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.
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                  • The Cisco Kid
                    RichardC I m in the Mountains, not over the Hill . ... From: ed_rodriguez52@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Baby wipes . .
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jun 6, 2010
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                      RichardC
                      "I'm in the Mountains, not over the Hill".


                      --- On Sun, 6/6/10, ed_rodriguez52@... <ed_rodriguez52@...> wrote:

                      From: ed_rodriguez52@... <ed_rodriguez52@...>
                      Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Baby wipes . . . YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING . . .
                      To: "John Muir Trail" <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com>
                      Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 3:14 PM

                       

                      I am carrying a plastic bucket that am planning to use to do my laundry, dishes and more important at the end of a long day is to rinse my self offf with a towel

                      Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®


                      From: "Bronco" <dawgbronco@yahoo. com>
                      Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 21:45:47 -0000
                      To: <johnmuirtrail@ yahoogroups. com>
                      Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Baby wipes . . . YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING . . .

                       

                      Thanks for the uncalled for dressing down, Bob. Methinks you read too much into my report. Had I posted the results of comparing lead boots to wooden shoes, would you also make that mighty leap to another wrong conclusion? Try showering before bedtime; maybe you'll forgo the grumpiness. Peace.

                      --- In johnmuirtrail@ yahoogroups. com, robert shattuck <bobolonius@. ..> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Sunday and I haven't had my shower yet, so I'm a little grumpy, but come on . . . baby wipes . . . you're gonna (B) pack a bunch of wet, heavy baby-wipes in and then (B) bury them . . . or no doubt try and burn them?
                      > This should almost not even be a topic of discussion. It should just be VERY understood. Perhaps instead of issuing permits, they should issue tests to all prospective hikers––fail the test and then get back in your car, go home.
                      >
                      > if you're going to go to the extravagance of carrying and using something like baby-wipes––then you should pay for the luxury by packing them out.
                      > You should already be packing out your used TP, so what's a few baby wipes. such an indulgence. I could see a few wipes on the trail if you're a woman and need to keep things clean, but still––bury or burning your trash is so selfish and abusive––it's like an oil-spill in the sierra and we don't need to look at it, or find it.
                      > with the amount of traffic out there, whenever you get to any kind of a camp spot, you can pretty much assume that anything within a hundred feet of it, has been used for someone's toilet.
                      > You can walk around and just look at the many rocks and no doubt, choose the ones that have been turned and used as toilets and then . . . usually, there's a tell-tale chunk of TP poking out . . . and while they were at it, they thought they'd just add in that candy bar wrapper . . .
                      > if you've got the time and inclination to sit around and bury toilet paper in your backyard, just to watch it decompose, then think a little harder, or maybe up the stakes and just start taking dumps in your backyard and seeing how long they take and pretty they are . . .
                      > Not trying to be mean or abusive here, but some suggestions are just plain stupid and should be put down immediately and those of you caught up in the oh so pretty convenience of all the junk we have at hand in this world––like baby wipes, that you can bury six inches under the soil and forget about (kinda like all that oil in the gulf that we can't see) well . . .
                      > it's a back-country mantra that bears repeating––something to the tune of, leave only footprints . . . not baby-wipes.
                      >
                      >
                      > BOBhttp://www. summitpost. org/plans/ view_activity. php?post_ id=6480
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
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                    • Don Amundson
                      So what was the point of of the experiment/report and the follow up about burn and bury? There are way to many people out there thinking burying or burning
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jun 6, 2010
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                        So what was the point of of the experiment/report and the follow up about burn and bury?  There are way to many people out there thinking burying or burning trash, plastic or toilet paper in designated wilderness areas or a National Forest is somehow ok or allowed for that matter.

                        From: dawgbronco@...

                        Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Baby wipes . . . YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING . . .

                        Gee, guys, back away from the compost pile and lay down your trowels. I did an experiment out of curiosity and relayed the results here. I'm a paper towel fan on the trail. I burn and bury. I'm a relic; a pre-hike high-colonic Druid from the Sixties. I've shaken enough used leaves out of my underwear to fill a 3-man tent. Remember Moon Tang?

                         
                        Thanks for the uncalled for dressing down, Bob. Methinks you read too much into my report. Had I posted the results of comparing lead boots to wooden shoes, would you also make that mighty leap to another wrong conclusion? Try showering before bedtime; maybe you'll forgo the grumpiness. Peace.




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                      • robert shattuck
                        Bronco, lead boots to wooden shoes . . . I d just have a good laugh and let you go for it and besides, I think whatever footwear you choose to wear on the
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jun 6, 2010
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                          Bronco, 

                          lead boots to wooden shoes . . . I'd just have a good laugh and let you go for it and besides, I think whatever footwear you choose to wear on the trail, it all tends to feel heavy as lead and just as uncomfortable :) . . . as for dressing you down, my apologies as I didn't actually spend a lot of time getting to your point, nor did I read the other responses ( I was in the shower by then) to see if I even needed to bother being so stern . . . 

                          But I get the feeling that there are far too many people that can't wait to get out into the pristine wilderness and yet they have to bring all this junk with them AND they want to leave it . . . oh it'll decompose . . . none of us have the right to screw anything up out there . . . I just don't think we should be encouraging every house-wife and clean freak that's about to hit the trail that all this junk is a great idea . . . people get into this thing of it's disposable, so why should I worry. Why can't I bury it, or burn it. 

                          Ultimately, I think if you suggested bringing your iron boots, I'd have to tell you what an absolutely stupid idea that was, but I sometimes get the feeling that others would chime in and we'd discuss and debate which iron boots were the best, because this one iron boot weighs so many decimal points less than this one . . . when really, we should all call you on it and say, dude, iron boots––are you kidding? . . . but we're often just too nice. 

                          I guess that's how I feel about baby wipes and other things that you really don't need out there ( or do) and that someone is going to feel just fine about leaving them there, where they don't belong . . . but hey, just my strong and yet, probably not too thought out opinion. 

                          Bob

                          http://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480






                          To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                          From: dawgbronco@...
                          Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 21:45:47 +0000
                          Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Baby wipes . . . YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING . . .

                           
                          Thanks for the uncalled for dressing down, Bob. Methinks you read too much into my report. Had I posted the results of comparing lead boots to wooden shoes, would you also make that mighty leap to another wrong conclusion? Try showering before bedtime; maybe you'll forgo the grumpiness. Peace.

                          --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, robert shattuck <bobolonius@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Sunday and I haven't had my shower yet, so I'm a little grumpy, but come on . . . baby wipes . . . you're gonna (B) pack a bunch of wet, heavy baby-wipes in and then (B) bury them . . . or no doubt try and burn them?
                          > This should almost not even be a topic of discussion. It should just be VERY understood. Perhaps instead of issuing permits, they should issue tests to all prospective hikers––fail the test and then get back in your car, go home.
                          >
                          > if you're going to go to the extravagance of carrying and using something like baby-wipes––then you should pay for the luxury by packing them out.
                          > You should already be packing out your used TP, so what's a few baby wipes. such an indulgence. I could see a few wipes on the trail if you're a woman and need to keep things clean, but still––bury or burning your trash is so selfish and abusive––it's like an oil-spill in the sierra and we don't need to look at it, or find it.
                          > with the amount of traffic out there, whenever you get to any kind of a camp spot, you can pretty much assume that anything within a hundred feet of it, has been used for someone's toilet.
                          > You can walk around and just look at the many rocks and no doubt, choose the ones that have been turned and used as toilets and then . . . usually, there's a tell-tale chunk of TP poking out . . . and while they were at it, they thought they'd just add in that candy bar wrapper . . .
                          > if you've got the time and inclination to sit around and bury toilet paper in your backyard, just to watch it decompose, then think a little harder, or maybe up the stakes and just start taking dumps in your backyard and seeing how long they take and pretty they are . . .
                          > Not trying to be mean or abusive here, but some suggestions are just plain stupid and should be put down immediately and those of you caught up in the oh so pretty convenience of all the junk we have at hand in this world––like baby wipes, that you can bury six inches under the soil and forget about (kinda like all that oil in the gulf that we can't see) well . . .
                          > it's a back-country mantra that bears repeating––something to the tune of, leave only footprints . . . not baby-wipes.
                          >
                          >
                          > BOBhttp://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > __________________________________________________________
                          > The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.
                          > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3
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                        • jmaddog1082@charter.net
                          I m sensing a new JMT thread: The Stream Crossing Footwear Dilemma - Lead Boots, Wooden Shoes, or Tevas? ;)
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jun 6, 2010
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                            I'm sensing a new JMT thread: "The Stream Crossing Footwear Dilemma - Lead Boots, Wooden Shoes, or Tevas?"

                            ;)

                            ---- robert shattuck <bobolonius@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Bronco,
                            > lead boots to wooden shoes . . . I'd just have a good laugh and let you go for it and besides, I think whatever footwear you choose to wear on the trail, it all tends to feel heavy as lead and just as uncomfortable :) . . . as for dressing you down, my apologies as I didn't actually spend a lot of time getting to your point, nor did I read the other responses ( I was in the shower by then) to see if I even needed to bother being so stern . . .
                            > But I get the feeling that there are far too many people that can't wait to get out into the pristine wilderness and yet they have to bring all this junk with them AND they want to leave it . . . oh it'll decompose . . . none of us have the right to screw anything up out there . . . I just don't think we should be encouraging every house-wife and clean freak that's about to hit the trail that all this junk is a great idea . . . people get into this thing of it's disposable, so why should I worry. Why can't I bury it, or burn it.
                            > Ultimately, I think if you suggested bringing your iron boots, I'd have to tell you what an absolutely stupid idea that was, but I sometimes get the feeling that others would chime in and we'd discuss and debate which iron boots were the best, because this one iron boot weighs so many decimal points less than this one . . . when really, we should all call you on it and say, dude, iron boots––are you kidding? . . . but we're often just too nice.
                            > I guess that's how I feel about baby wipes and other things that you really don't need out there ( or do) and that someone is going to feel just fine about leaving them there, where they don't belong . . . but hey, just my strong and yet, probably not too thought out opinion.
                            > Bob
                            > http://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                            > From: dawgbronco@...
                            > Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 21:45:47 +0000
                            > Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Baby wipes . . . YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING . . .
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                            > Thanks for the uncalled for dressing down, Bob. Methinks you read too much into my report. Had I posted the results of comparing lead boots to wooden shoes, would you also make that mighty leap to another wrong conclusion? Try showering before bedtime; maybe you'll forgo the grumpiness. Peace.
                            >
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                            >
                            > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, robert shattuck <bobolonius@...> wrote:
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                            > > Sunday and I haven't had my shower yet, so I'm a little grumpy, but come on . . . baby wipes . . . you're gonna (B) pack a bunch of wet, heavy baby-wipes in and then (B) bury them . . . or no doubt try and burn them?
                            >
                            > > This should almost not even be a topic of discussion. It should just be VERY understood. Perhaps instead of issuing permits, they should issue tests to all prospective hikers––fail the test and then get back in your car, go home.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > if you're going to go to the extravagance of carrying and using something like baby-wipes––then you should pay for the luxury by packing them out.
                            >
                            > > You should already be packing out your used TP, so what's a few baby wipes. such an indulgence. I could see a few wipes on the trail if you're a woman and need to keep things clean, but still––bury or burning your trash is so selfish and abusive––it's like an oil-spill in the sierra and we don't need to look at it, or find it.
                            >
                            > > with the amount of traffic out there, whenever you get to any kind of a camp spot, you can pretty much assume that anything within a hundred feet of it, has been used for someone's toilet.
                            >
                            > > You can walk around and just look at the many rocks and no doubt, choose the ones that have been turned and used as toilets and then . . . usually, there's a tell-tale chunk of TP poking out . . . and while they were at it, they thought they'd just add in that candy bar wrapper . . .
                            >
                            > > if you've got the time and inclination to sit around and bury toilet paper in your backyard, just to watch it decompose, then think a little harder, or maybe up the stakes and just start taking dumps in your backyard and seeing how long they take and pretty they are . . .
                            >
                            > > Not trying to be mean or abusive here, but some suggestions are just plain stupid and should be put down immediately and those of you caught up in the oh so pretty convenience of all the junk we have at hand in this world––like baby wipes, that you can bury six inches under the soil and forget about (kinda like all that oil in the gulf that we can't see) well . . .
                            >
                            > > it's a back-country mantra that bears repeating––something to the tune of, leave only footprints . . . not baby-wipes.
                            >
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                            > > BOBhttp://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480
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                            >
                            > > __________________________________________________________
                            >
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                          • Bronco
                            It s all good, Robert. I was hiking in Denali Park in the seventies and a decent number of miles in when I came across a car battery. Still scratching my head
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jun 7, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              It's all good, Robert. I was hiking in Denali Park in the seventies and a decent number of miles in when I came across a car battery. Still scratching my head about that one. Here in Hawaii, people have little environmental conscience. One finds plastic water bottles and styrofoam lunch containers along most of the trails. Disgusting. I suspect pig hunters.

                              I meet people miles in wearing flip-flops, carrying no water, and invariably they ask, "Where does this trail go?"
                              I'm too moved by their high spirits and wanderlust to criticize. I doubt they would even consider spoiling the woods by littering. They might poop though, like my dog but one hopes farther off the trail.

                              Paul Flentge


                              --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, robert shattuck <bobolonius@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Bronco,
                              > lead boots to wooden shoes . . . I'd just have a good laugh and let you go for it and besides, I think whatever footwear you choose to wear on the trail, it all tends to feel heavy as lead and just as uncomfortable :) . . . as for dressing you down, my apologies as I didn't actually spend a lot of time getting to your point, nor did I read the other responses ( I was in the shower by then) to see if I even needed to bother being so stern . . .
                              > But I get the feeling that there are far too many people that can't wait to get out into the pristine wilderness and yet they have to bring all this junk with them AND they want to leave it . . . oh it'll decompose . . . none of us have the right to screw anything up out there . . . I just don't think we should be encouraging every house-wife and clean freak that's about to hit the trail that all this junk is a great idea . . . people get into this thing of it's disposable, so why should I worry. Why can't I bury it, or burn it.
                              > Ultimately, I think if you suggested bringing your iron boots, I'd have to tell you what an absolutely stupid idea that was, but I sometimes get the feeling that others would chime in and we'd discuss and debate which iron boots were the best, because this one iron boot weighs so many decimal points less than this one . . . when really, we should all call you on it and say, dude, iron boots––are you kidding? . . . but we're often just too nice.
                              > I guess that's how I feel about baby wipes and other things that you really don't need out there ( or do) and that someone is going to feel just fine about leaving them there, where they don't belong . . . but hey, just my strong and yet, probably not too thought out opinion.
                              > Bob
                              > http://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                              > From: dawgbronco@...
                              > Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 21:45:47 +0000
                              > Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Baby wipes . . . YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING . . .
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                              >
                              > Thanks for the uncalled for dressing down, Bob. Methinks you read too much into my report. Had I posted the results of comparing lead boots to wooden shoes, would you also make that mighty leap to another wrong conclusion? Try showering before bedtime; maybe you'll forgo the grumpiness. Peace.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, robert shattuck <bobolonius@> wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Sunday and I haven't had my shower yet, so I'm a little grumpy, but come on . . . baby wipes . . . you're gonna (B) pack a bunch of wet, heavy baby-wipes in and then (B) bury them . . . or no doubt try and burn them?
                              >
                              > > This should almost not even be a topic of discussion. It should just be VERY understood. Perhaps instead of issuing permits, they should issue tests to all prospective hikers––fail the test and then get back in your car, go home.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > if you're going to go to the extravagance of carrying and using something like baby-wipes––then you should pay for the luxury by packing them out.
                              >
                              > > You should already be packing out your used TP, so what's a few baby wipes. such an indulgence. I could see a few wipes on the trail if you're a woman and need to keep things clean, but still––bury or burning your trash is so selfish and abusive––it's like an oil-spill in the sierra and we don't need to look at it, or find it.
                              >
                              > > with the amount of traffic out there, whenever you get to any kind of a camp spot, you can pretty much assume that anything within a hundred feet of it, has been used for someone's toilet.
                              >
                              > > You can walk around and just look at the many rocks and no doubt, choose the ones that have been turned and used as toilets and then . . . usually, there's a tell-tale chunk of TP poking out . . . and while they were at it, they thought they'd just add in that candy bar wrapper . . .
                              >
                              > > if you've got the time and inclination to sit around and bury toilet paper in your backyard, just to watch it decompose, then think a little harder, or maybe up the stakes and just start taking dumps in your backyard and seeing how long they take and pretty they are . . .
                              >
                              > > Not trying to be mean or abusive here, but some suggestions are just plain stupid and should be put down immediately and those of you caught up in the oh so pretty convenience of all the junk we have at hand in this world––like baby wipes, that you can bury six inches under the soil and forget about (kinda like all that oil in the gulf that we can't see) well . . .
                              >
                              > > it's a back-country mantra that bears repeating––something to the tune of, leave only footprints . . . not baby-wipes.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > BOBhttp://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480
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                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > __________________________________________________________
                              >
                              > > The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.
                              >
                              > > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3
                              >
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                              > _________________________________________________________________
                              > Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.
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