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Re: [John Muir Trail] Food Drops

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  • Roleigh Martin
    All I m saying is that a friend of mine got treated harshly doing such a favor. I don t ask friends to do this anymore. I value their friendship too much.
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 2, 2010
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      All I'm saying is that a friend of mine got treated harshly doing such a favor.  I don't ask friends to do this anymore.  I value their friendship too much. 
    • Todd Sharp
      I just sent Mellisa an email to ask what kind of drops she is offering (trailhead / on trail meetup)     I just sent Mellisa an email to ask what kind of
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 2, 2010
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        I just sent Mellisa an email to ask what kind of drops she is offering (trailhead / on trail meetup)
         
         

      • Peter Burke
        Rant time... Even though I could afford it, I will go out of my way not to have to utilize packer services. I absolutely detest stock on the trails. They cause
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 2, 2010
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          Rant time... Even though I could afford it, I will go out of my way not to have to utilize packer services. I absolutely detest stock on the trails. They cause massive erosion on trails that are not built up to pack animal travel standards (e.g. Bear Ridge Trail, or the JMT just north of Reds Meadow). Trail construction and re-routing of the JMT only seems to happen because of stock travel - they just completed a big project north below Forester Pass and it is a complete nightmare to walk on those fist-sized boulders they call "trail" now.  Huge rocks and massive steps are put in place to make the trails withstand stock use, leaving a trail of pretty massive impact where a much lesser trail would suffice.

          Here's the kind of trail they are constructing these days - they are 4-5 feet wide, and the "gravel" is so large, foot traffic will choose the blocks on the side to walk on wherever possible: http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009sept/20090916/slides/DSC_1350.jpg

          In fact, there could be a lot less switchbacks on almost all passes if it wasn't for stock travel. Trails in Europe are much more direct, because humans can actually handle trails far too gnarly for large pack animals. I'd argue trails built for humans have a far lesser impact on the environment than a trail designed for heavy pack animals.

          I find it ironic that people here  are concerned about wearing rigid boots in camp, when on the next day a group of 10 horses and pack animals can make camp in the same area, giving camp erosion a whole new meaning.

          Horses crap on the trails, and into streams, tear up the trails, force overbuilding of trails, destroy vegetation in camp areas.  And then there are those silly FENCE GATES on the trail you have to open and close all the time - what are those doing there while there's a discussion that bear boxes don't belong into National Parks?

          But somebody is making money with these businesses, so there's a strong lobby for them - I doubt anything will change. By the way, I prefer hiking in very early season so I don't have to deal with horse traffic - as long as the passes are still snow covered, most more remote areas of the JMT are pack animal free. I could go on with this subject - like why SEKI hasn't cleared fallen trees off the JMT in the burn area at Palisade Creek for years, while they put in an overbuilt trail up Goddard Canyon nobody but the packers want (hikers were happy with the old trail). I suppose packers don't go to burn areas with their clients, so the fixing of the JMT wasn't as high priority as to open up a whole new valley for horse travel...

          Whenever you see a warning sign on a trail intersection about a side trail being "not maintained" - relax, it'll be just fine for human travel. It's all about the horses. 

          I would love to have a human meet me on the trail with some resupplies - low impact, low cost, provides more job-dollars per dollar spent than the use of horses to pack food into the backcountry. I can't see how anyone would want to meet me on top of Taboose Pass with 12 pounds of food, though, but if I can have that happen, I will gladly pay for it... The real problem with all that becomes the timing, something that pretty much requires a satellite phone for coordination.


          On 3/2/2010 11:21 AM, jmaddog1082@... wrote:
           

          Without getting into a swirling political debate about free enterprise, etc, I feel what little "business competition" that Melissa's service might stimulate would be a good thing.

          I agree that if her food volumes begin to exceed that of what would be considered "friendly gestures" and she charges a profit-generating fee, then perhaps a commercial permit is in order. However, if she chooses to perform this service as a steward to the PCT/JMT community in a gratuitous capacity, she should remain exempt. It's so rare these days for people just to help people without a agenda. We really should embrace it... and that's coming from a conservative, government servant :)

          Backcountry rangers get food drops, so why the hypocrisy?

          BTW - at last check, commercial packers are exempt from traditional USFS trail quotas, with or without clients. Aside from the damage pack animals do to trails, packers' quota-less status has been one of the biggest arguing points for grass root Sierra organizations against pack animals in the back country.

          Check this link, that while dated, gives some insight into the packer debate. Again, this is dated material, but as of Sept 2009, these issues are still in litigation.

          http://www.highsier rahikers. org/ha_draft_ plan.html

          Thanks for allowing me to let the party out of my head once again,
          J

          ---- Roleigh Martin <roleigh@pobox. com> wrote:
          > The rangers frown heavily on this type of volunteerism. A friend of mine
          > got scolded for doing this. When packers hear about this, they complain
          > about unfair competition. Friends helping each other for zero money and
          > zero favors probably can evade any problems, but when it comes to strangers,
          > it's much harder. The enforcement rangers state such people need to pay for
          > the same permit as packers do who do food drops and follow the same quota
          > protocol, etc.
          >
          > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 7:31 AM, t_b_sharp <t_b_sharp@yahoo. com> wrote:
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > Saw this on the Whitney board. some might find it useful.
          > >
          > > I am available this summer to do food drops for anyone hiking the PCT, JMT
          > > or any other trail this summer. I will have a selection of bulk food
          > > available and I am willing to go to Vons, the natural food store or the
          > > local mountaineering store for supplies for the drop. I am located in
          > > Mammoth Lakes and I am willing to do drops anywhere between Lake Tahoe to
          > > Independence. Drop me an email with a list of a tentative food and dates,
          > > and your phone number. We will take it from there!
          > >
          > > Thanks and best of luck to everyone hiking the trail this summer!
          > >
          > > Melissa Buehler
          > > BuehlerBulkFoods at gmail.com
          > >
          > >
          > >


        • Roleigh Martin
          Peter, cool down there. Our use of packer services is to have the food supply sitting at the packer station house at OnionValley Trailhead. It costs so much
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 2, 2010
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            Peter,
             
            cool down there.  Our use of packer services is to have the food supply sitting at the packer station house at OnionValley Trailhead.  It costs so much to have stuff stocked in.  Now the packer if they already have a pack-in scheduled and they have room for an extra 25-30 lbs of food (enough for 4 people to go from OnionValley to Whitney Portal), they'll surcharge you $75 or so to do the drop at Kearsarge Lake.  In 2009, we just took advantage of the TH pickup method.
             
            My rant is why is there not something like Muir Trail Ranch near Charlotte Lake?  There really should be something like that there.  For older people whose pace is around 10 miles a day, going from Muir Trail Ranch to Whitney Portal without a resupply is too difficult. 
             
            I understand your viewpoint but to me if the park service really wanted to change things, allowing a Muir Trail Ranch setup near Charlotte Lake (or Kearsarage Lakes) would go a super long ways.
             
            Roleigh

            On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Peter Burke <pburke@...> wrote:
             

            Rant time... Even though I could afford it, I will go out of my way not to have to utilize packer services. I absolutely detest stock on the trails. They cause massive erosion on trails that are not built up to pack animal travel standards (e.g. Bear Ridge Trail, or the JMT just north of Reds Meadow). Trail construction and re-routing of the JMT only seems to happen because of stock travel - they just completed a big project north below Forester Pass and it is a complete nightmare to walk on those fist-sized boulders they call "trail" now.  Huge rocks and massive steps are put in place to make the trails withstand stock use, leaving a trail of pretty massive impact where a much lesser trail would suffice.

            Here's the kind of trail they are constructing these days - they are 4-5 feet wide, and the "gravel" is so large, foot traffic will choose the blocks on the side to walk on wherever possible: http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009sept/20090916/slides/DSC_1350.jpg

            In fact, there could be a lot less switchbacks on almost all passes if it wasn't for stock travel. Trails in Europe are much more direct, because humans can actually handle trails far too gnarly for large pack animals. I'd argue trails built for humans have a far lesser impact on the environment than a trail designed for heavy pack animals.

            I find it ironic that people here  are concerned about wearing rigid boots in camp, when on the next day a group of 10 horses and pack animals can make camp in the same area, giving camp erosion a whole new meaning.

            Horses crap on the trails, and into streams, tear up the trails, force overbuilding of trails, destroy vegetation in camp areas.  And then there are those silly FENCE GATES on the trail you have to open and close all the time - what are those doing there while there's a discussion that bear boxes don't belong into National Parks?

            But somebody is making money with these businesses, so there's a strong lobby for them - I doubt anything will change. By the way, I prefer hiking in very early season so I don't have to deal with horse traffic - as long as the passes are still snow covered, most more remote areas of the JMT are pack animal free. I could go on with this subject - like why SEKI hasn't cleared fallen trees off the JMT in the burn area at Palisade Creek for years, while they put in an overbuilt trail up Goddard Canyon nobody but the packers want (hikers were happy with the old trail). I suppose packers don't go to burn areas with their clients, so the fixing of the JMT wasn't as high priority as to open up a whole new valley for horse travel...

            Whenever you see a warning sign on a trail intersection about a side trail being "not maintained" - relax, it'll be just fine for human travel. It's all about the horses. 

            I would love to have a human meet me on the trail with some resupplies - low impact, low cost, provides more job-dollars per dollar spent than the use of horses to pack food into the backcountry. I can't see how anyone would want to meet me on top of Taboose Pass with 12 pounds of food, though, but if I can have that happen, I will gladly pay for it... The real problem with all that becomes the timing, something that pretty much requires a satellite phone for coordination.


            On 3/2/2010 11:21 AM, jmaddog1082@... wrote:

             

            Without getting into a swirling political debate about free enterprise, etc, I feel what little "business competition" that Melissa's service might stimulate would be a good thing.

            I agree that if her food volumes begin to exceed that of what would be considered "friendly gestures" and she charges a profit-generating fee, then perhaps a commercial permit is in order. However, if she chooses to perform this service as a steward to the PCT/JMT community in a gratuitous capacity, she should remain exempt. It's so rare these days for people just to help people without a agenda. We really should embrace it... and that's coming from a conservative, government servant :)

            Backcountry rangers get food drops, so why the hypocrisy?

            BTW - at last check, commercial packers are exempt from traditional USFS trail quotas, with or without clients. Aside from the damage pack animals do to trails, packers' quota-less status has been one of the biggest arguing points for grass root Sierra organizations against pack animals in the back country.

            Check this link, that while dated, gives some insight into the packer debate. Again, this is dated material, but as of Sept 2009, these issues are still in litigation.

            http://www.highsierrahikers.org/ha_draft_plan.html

            Thanks for allowing me to let the party out of my head once again,
            J

            ---- Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...> wrote:
            > The rangers frown heavily on this type of volunteerism. A friend of mine
            > got scolded for doing this. When packers hear about this, they complain
            > about unfair competition. Friends helping each other for zero money and
            > zero favors probably can evade any problems, but when it comes to strangers,
            > it's much harder. The enforcement rangers state such people need to pay for
            > the same permit as packers do who do food drops and follow the same quota
            > protocol, etc.
            >
            > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 7:31 AM, t_b_sharp <t_b_sharp@...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            > >
            > > Saw this on the Whitney board. some might find it useful.
            > >
            > > I am available this summer to do food drops for anyone hiking the PCT, JMT
            > > or any other trail this summer. I will have a selection of bulk food
            > > available and I am willing to go to Vons, the natural food store or the
            > > local mountaineering store for supplies for the drop. I am located in
            > > Mammoth Lakes and I am willing to do drops anywhere between Lake Tahoe to
            > > Independence. Drop me an email with a list of a tentative food and dates,
            > > and your phone number. We will take it from there!
            > >
            > > Thanks and best of luck to everyone hiking the trail this summer!
            > >
            > > Melissa Buehler
            > > BuehlerBulkFoods at gmail.com
            > >
            > >
            > >



          • ned@mountaineducation.org
            We used to bring thru hiker s resupply boxes right to them on the trail years ago. Never had a problem with the USFS, but then it was only into the Sierra
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 2, 2010
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              We used to bring thru hiker's resupply boxes right to them on the trail years ago. Never had a problem with the USFS, but then it was only into the Sierra while there was still a lot of snow still on the ground! (1984 to 2005)
               
              We would still offer the service to points like Cottonwood Pass, Kearsarge Pass, Bishop Pass, Mono Pass, Red's Meadow, Tuolumne Meadows/Tioga Pass, Sonora Pass, and Echo Pass if hikers could make it worth while. Would anyone be interested?
               
              It depends on whether it is important to the thru hiker to stay on the trail, saving the time it takes to hike down the thousands of feet to the trailhead (think the first four Passes), hopefully hitch into some closest town, and then repeat the round-trip by hitching back and climbing up to the trail with a full pack or not.
               
              This is what we offered and would do again if we could afford to do it. We're non-profit, after all....
               
               
              Ned Tibbits, Director
              Mountain Education
              South Lake Tahoe, Ca.
                  P: 888-996-8333
                  F: 530-541-1456
                  C: 530-721-1551
                  http://www.mountaineducation.org
               
            • Roleigh Martin
              If anyone is thinking of doing this on a volunteer or non-profit basis, clear it ahead of time with this individual, if you will be going into Inyo National
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 2, 2010
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                If anyone is thinking of doing this on a volunteer or non-profit basis, clear it ahead of time with this individual, if you will be going into Inyo National Forest.
                 
                Richard Watt
                Law Enforcement Officer
                Inyo National Forest
                White Mt. Ranger District
                Office--760-873-2520
                Cell--760-937-1178
                E-mail rwatt@...

                On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:15 PM, <ned@...> wrote:
                 

                

                We used to bring thru hiker's resupply boxes right to them on the trail years ago. Never had a problem with the USFS, but then it was only into the Sierra while there was still a lot of snow still on the ground! (1984 to 2005)
                 
                We would still offer the service to points like Cottonwood Pass, Kearsarge Pass, Bishop Pass, Mono Pass, Red's Meadow, Tuolumne Meadows/Tioga Pass, Sonora Pass, and Echo Pass if hikers could make it worth while. Would anyone be interested?
                 
                It depends on whether it is important to the thru hiker to stay on the trail, saving the time it takes to hike down the thousands of feet to the trailhead (think the first four Passes), hopefully hitch into some closest town, and then repeat the round-trip by hitching back and climbing up to the trail with a full pack or not.
                 
                This is what we offered and would do again if we could afford to do it. We're non-profit, after all....
                 
                 
                Ned Tibbits, Director
                Mountain Education
                South Lake Tahoe, Ca.
                    P: 888-996-8333
                    F: 530-541-1456
                    C: 530-721-1551
                    http://www.mountaineducation.org
                 


              • Dan Kronstadt
                People often avoid putting their email address directly into messages, to make it harder for them to be picked up by software that scans the net and harvests
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 2, 2010
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                  People often avoid putting their email address directly into messages, to make it harder for them to be picked up by software that scans the net and harvests email addresses, to be used for spam. That's why they might spell out "at" rather than using the @.

                  I don't think it matters much - our email addresses are all over the place - for example, in the message headers, on web sites (altho those can be protected), etc - but people do want to feel they have some control in the battle with the bad guys. :-)

                  Dan

                  Todd Sharp wrote:
                   BuehlerBulkFoods
                   
                  I pulled the whole string off of the Whitneyportalstore.com website.
                   
                  By looking at it I will have to say that the correct address would be
                   
                   
                  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   

                • Todd Sharp
                  This is the message I received from Mellisa last night   Todd, I will do drops at a trailhead or road crossing.  I am located at Mammoth Lakes, so you could
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 3, 2010
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                    This is the message I received from Mellisa last night
                     
                    Todd,

                    I will do drops at a trailhead or road crossing.  I am located at Mammoth Lakes, so you could also meet me here.  I am willing to pop over a pass to meet you, but I will have to decide that on a case by case basis.  I am in the process of making a list of the different meeting spots and prices, but it mainly depends on how far from Mammoth and accessibility of the meeting spot.

                    I also want hikers to send me a tentative list of food for the resupply, so I can get inventory ordered.

                    What do you have in mind?

                    Sincerely,
                     Melissa Buehler

                  • ed_rodriguez52@yahoo.com
                    Thanks Todd for that up date. Guess for me I stay with the P.O. Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® ... From: Todd Sharp
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 3, 2010
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                      Thanks Todd for that up date. Guess for me I stay with the P.O.

                      Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®


                      From: Todd Sharp <t_b_sharp@...>
                      Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 05:10:16 -0800 (PST)
                      To: <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com>
                      Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Food Drops

                       

                      This is the message I received from Mellisa last night
                       
                      Todd,

                      I will do drops at a trailhead or road crossing.  I am located at Mammoth Lakes, so you could also meet me here.  I am willing to pop over a pass to meet you, but I will have to decide that on a case by case basis.  I am in the process of making a list of the different meeting spots and prices, but it mainly depends on how far from Mammoth and accessibility of the meeting spot.

                      I also want hikers to send me a tentative list of food for the resupply, so I can get inventory ordered.

                      What do you have in mind?

                      Sincerely,
                       Melissa Buehler

                    • Peter Burke
                      ... ...there goes my Taboose Pass resupply :-)
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 3, 2010
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                        On 3/3/2010 7:10 AM, Todd Sharp wrote:
                         

                        This is the message I received from Mellisa last night
                         
                        Todd,

                        I will do drops at a trailhead or road crossing.  I am located at Mammoth Lakes, so you could also meet me here.  I am willing to pop over a pass to meet you, but I will have to decide that on a case by case basis. 


                        ...there goes my Taboose Pass resupply :-)
                      • Jack Young
                        The rangers frown heavily on this type of volunteerism. Hum, I don t believe this. I ve met and number of the rangers and know a retired one very well.
                        Message 11 of 24 , Mar 3, 2010
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                          "The rangers frown heavily on this type of volunteerism. "

                          Hum, I don't believe this.  I've met and number of the rangers and know a retired one very well.  They have encouraged me to do this especially over Kearsarge Pass...which many people of course do.
                          Be well,
                          Jack Young
                          530-219-7900




                        • yountvlmom@aol.com
                          Hi all: I am sure this is not a volunteer trail anger. My take is you hire her to meet you and bring supplies. Darlene ... From: Jack Young
                          Message 12 of 24 , Mar 3, 2010
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                            Hi all:  I am sure this is not a volunteer trail anger.  My take is you hire her to meet you and bring supplies.  
                            Darlene



                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Jack Young <auctionjack@...>
                            To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wed, Mar 3, 2010 8:21 am
                            Subject: [John Muir Trail] Re:Food Drops



                            "The rangers frown heavily on this type of volunteerism. "

                            Hum, I don't believe this.  I've met and number of the rangers and know a retired one very well.  They have encouraged me to do this especially over Kearsarge Pass...which many people of course do.
                            Be well,
                            Jack Young
                            530-219-7900






                          • Roleigh Martin
                            Jack, I posted the name of the enforcement ranger who frowned on this. Now of course, he did not care if the person did it for a close friend, it s the issue
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 3, 2010
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                              Jack, I posted the name of the enforcement ranger who frowned on this.  Now of course, he did not care if the person did it for a close friend, it's the issue of why would a stranger do this for someone when the stranger has to take 1-2 days off work too do the drop with nothing expected in return.  Feel free to contact the ranger I named.
                               
                              On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 10:21 AM, Jack Young <auctionjack@...> wrote:
                               

                              "The rangers frown heavily on this type of volunteerism. "


                              Hum, I don't believe this.  I've met and number of the rangers and know a retired one very well.  They have encouraged me to do this especially over Kearsarge Pass...which many people of course do.
                              Be well,
                              Jack Young
                              530-219-7900





                            • dh5169
                              a quick google search turned up this info posted on the Adventure on the PCT website. Another is on Hidg Sierra Topix forum. High Sierra Food Drops Buehler s
                              Message 14 of 24 , Mar 3, 2010
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                                a quick google search turned up this info posted on the Adventure on the PCT website. Another is on Hidg Sierra Topix forum.

                                High Sierra Food Drops
                                Buehler's Bulk Foods is a new business that caters to the needs of backpackers on the PCT, JMT and in the Eastern Sierras. We are located out of Mammoth Lakes, California. The mission of Buehler's Bulk Foods is to provide the users of the Eastern Sierras the highest quality of bulk food for the fairest price to the producers, consumers and to the Earth.

                                I will have on stock: spices and herbs, teas, coffees, baking needs, nuts, dried fruits and vegetables, grains and cereals, and beans and seeds. Only organic fruits and vegetables will be used for dehydration. Other supplies (i.e. duct tape, snicker bars, tasty bites, water purifying tablets) will be available for the food drop service.

                                Send me an email or call me with a food order, I will fill the order, and drop it off at a designated destination along the PCT from Lone Pine to Bridgeport.

                                Contact Information:
                                Melissa Buehler
                                Phone: (707)832-9719
                                email: melissa.buehler@...--- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, yountvlmom@... wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi all: I am sure this is not a volunteer trail anger. My take is you hire her to meet you and bring supplies.
                                > Darlene
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: Jack Young <auctionjack@...>
                                > To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Wed, Mar 3, 2010 8:21 am
                                > Subject: [John Muir Trail] Re:Food Drops
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > "The rangers frown heavily on this type of volunteerism. "
                                >
                                >
                                > Hum, I don't believe this. I've met and number of the rangers and know a retired one very well. They have encouraged me to do this especially over Kearsarge Pass...which many people of course do.
                                >
                                > Be well,
                                > Jack Young
                                > 530-219-7900
                                >
                              • John
                                ... Chances are, if you are smart, you won t be camping in a horse camp. Therefore in a hikers camp, the impacts are all ours. Just because pack trains cause
                                Message 15 of 24 , Mar 4, 2010
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                                  >
                                  > I find it ironic that people here are concerned about wearing rigid
                                  > boots in camp, when on the next day a group of 10 horses and pack
                                  > animals can make camp in the same area, giving camp erosion a whole new
                                  > meaning.
                                  >

                                  Chances are, if you are smart, you won't be camping in a "horse" camp. Therefore in a hikers camp, the impacts are all ours.

                                  Just because pack trains cause more damage than hikers do, isn't a valid reason not to care about our impact.

                                  JD
                                  Walk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trail
                                  www.johndittli.com
                                • John
                                  As an ex bc ranger I think I can safely say that rangers don t frown on volunteerism as it is not illegal. What they do frown on is commercial activities
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Mar 4, 2010
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                                    As an ex bc ranger I think I can safely say that rangers don't frown on "volunteerism" as it is not illegal. What they do frown on is commercial activities that are carried out without a commercial permit.

                                    If this concerns you, you may wish to ask whom ever is taking your money, if they have a permit to work it the given location (ie. National Forests or National Park)

                                    JD
                                    Walk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trail
                                    www.johndittli.com


                                    --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Jack Young <auctionjack@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > "The rangers frown heavily on this type of volunteerism. "
                                    >
                                    > Hum, I don't believe this. I've met and number of the rangers and know a retired one very well. They have encouraged me to do this especially over Kearsarge Pass...which many people of course do.
                                    > Be well,
                                    > Jack Young
                                    > 530-219-7900
                                    >
                                  • Peter Burke
                                    ... so it is ok for horses to tear up another area? this makes no sense to me. Impact is impact. ... agreed, but I don t see how the type of my footwear will
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Mar 5, 2010
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                                      On 3/4/2010 10:26 PM, John wrote:
                                       


                                      >
                                      > I find it ironic that people here are concerned about wearing rigid
                                      > boots in camp, when on the next day a group of 10 horses and pack
                                      > animals can make camp in the same area, giving camp erosion a whole new
                                      > meaning.
                                      >

                                      Chances are, if you are smart, you won't be camping in a "horse" camp. Therefore in a hikers camp, the impacts are all ours.


                                      so it is ok for horses to tear up another area? this makes no sense to me. Impact is impact.


                                      Just because pack trains cause more damage than hikers do, isn't a valid reason not to care about our impact.


                                      agreed, but I don't see how the type of my footwear will make any measurable difference anywhere, while cutting back on stock will dramatically change trail erosion and get rid of those ridiculous stock gates on the trail.  Also, if everyone was so concerned about their own impact to go as far as to pick footwear based on soil erosion potential, we should all just stay home - nothing better for the wilderness than your complete absence. But then we are selfish and want to be there, and that comes with impact. We accept that, and don't deal with that very basic initial choice we make. Once we arrive at that point, we suddenly care and make these band-aid fixes to feel like we are doing all we can. We are such hypocrites :-)

                                      Peter

                                    • John
                                      Yep, impacts are impacts and the more we can reduce ours the better we leave the place. And since many of you have children, perhaps you would like to leave
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Mar 5, 2010
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                                        Yep, impacts are impacts and the more we can reduce ours the better we leave the place. And since many of you have children, perhaps you would like to leave the place in as good or better shape for them. In 35 years of working in the backcountry I've yet to find anyone TOO concerned about leaving impact.

                                        There used to be a saying in backpacking; "watch the ounces and the pounds will take care of themselves". In some ways this can also be applied to minimum impact.

                                        During my patrols I have seen first hand the result from people sitting on a log, rock, tent etc. with heavy soled boots, unwittingly grinding their heels into plants and soil. Watch this day after day, week after week summer after summer and the impacts become quite apparent (and measurable), especially in and around camp.

                                        I'm not saying everyone needs to go out and buy camp shoes, or hike in running shoes, I'm merely stating the facts.

                                        All of the above has nothing to do with horses, dogs, bikes, motorcycles; it has to do with us, hikers.

                                        If we want to talk about horses we can do that, but I don't think there are many people on this forum using them.

                                        Lastly, yes, we are all hypocrites, the only species on earth that are.

                                        JD
                                        Walk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trail
                                        www.johndittli.com

                                        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Peter Burke <pburke@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > On 3/4/2010 10:26 PM, John wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I find it ironic that people here are concerned about wearing rigid
                                        > > > boots in camp, when on the next day a group of 10 horses and pack
                                        > > > animals can make camp in the same area, giving camp erosion a whole new
                                        > > > meaning.
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Chances are, if you are smart, you won't be camping in a "horse" camp.
                                        > > Therefore in a hikers camp, the impacts are all ours.
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > so it is ok for horses to tear up another area? this makes no sense to
                                        > me. Impact is impact.
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > > Just because pack trains cause more damage than hikers do, isn't a
                                        > > valid reason not to care about our impact.
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > agreed, but I don't see how the type of my footwear will make any
                                        > measurable difference anywhere, while cutting back on stock will
                                        > dramatically change trail erosion and get rid of those ridiculous stock
                                        > gates on the trail. Also, if everyone was so concerned about their own
                                        > impact to go as far as to pick footwear based on soil erosion potential,
                                        > we should all just stay home - nothing better for the wilderness than
                                        > your complete absence. But then we are selfish and want to be there, and
                                        > that comes with impact. We accept that, and don't deal with that very
                                        > basic initial choice we make. Once we arrive at that point, we suddenly
                                        > care and make these band-aid fixes to feel like we are doing all we can.
                                        > We are such hypocrites :-)
                                        >
                                        > Peter
                                        >
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