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Re: [John Muir Trail] obtaining a permit

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  • Peter Burke
    ... If a particular permit means you have to camp in a particular camp space, then I would say it will have to state that on the permit. Anyone have a permit
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 25, 2010
      On 2/25/2010 2:34 PM, Roleigh Martin wrote:  

      I'm copying ex-ranger John.  Do you mean we could still camp at Cloud Rest junction our first night when the permit reads HI to Whitney Portal via LYV?  That would be fantastic!


      If a particular permit means you have to camp in a particular camp space, then I would say it will have to state that on the permit. Anyone have a permit from recent years and can confirm that?

      But why on earth would they care to enforce that there? LYV is a place where the less people stay there the better for it. Like I said in another message before - Yosemite wilderness permits state entry and exit locations and dates, nothing else, no mention of route or camp locations. Maybe the LYV permit does add more info to control the locations of where people camp, but I haven't seen permits for Happy Isles since 1989 when they were small handwritten forms.

      You have to realize this permit process is primarily a crowd control tool. It spreads the load of hikers over the days and area more evenly, but the variables are just too much to really enforce anything. they have far more rangers writing speeding tickets in the valley than monitor these backcountry areas. There's no permit for "HI entry to Clouds Rest intersection" anyway - only LYV or Sunrise. So either way, you'd not be camping where your permit states you should camp that first night. I understand the LYV permits as head count control for the LYV area, not to reduce traffic up all the trail directions that leave from there. The valley there is the heavy load zone, probably for all those Half Dome hikers, not for the handful of JMT or Merced river valley overnighters.

      It's bureaucracy gone mad if you now need to reserve backcountry camp sites for specific nights. I thought the rule for backcountry camping  in Yosemite was you can camp anywhere you like as long as you are at least 100 feet away from a trail, 100 feet away from water, and 4 miles away from developed areas (e.g. tuolumne meadows or Yos.Valley), and one mile from any roadway. LYV is far enough from the valley that you should be free to choose where to make camp. Technically, you should be allowed to crash 100 feet away from trail and river next to the waterfall unless there's a no camping sign. I only saw signs keeping me from swimming in the river above the falls, though :)

      For the park this is all about controlling large numbers of people and reducing impact. There is no reduced impact between you camping in LYV or near Clouds Rest Junction on night one. The 24 permits per day who get to go up there are absolutely nothing compared to the 400 odd day hikers who tear up the trail up to Half Dome each day. 

      Peter





      On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Peter Burke <pburke@doit. wisc.edu> wrote:
       

      On 2/25/2010 2:23 PM, Roleigh Martin wrote:
       

       Putting LYV on the permit only means for the first day, you have to camp there,


      it does not. It means "on your first day you PLAN to camp there."  Plans change, rangers could care less. These things are to control the masses, not a ticket you need to stamp at the camp site to get to continue.

      Peter




    • ed_rodriguez52@yahoo.com
      I sure hope this is true Peter, my first camp site was LYV but my plan was to arrive there eat and check to see how our body is holding up. If things are going
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 25, 2010
        I sure hope this is true Peter, my first camp site was LYV but my plan was to arrive there eat and check to see how our body is holding up. If things are going good then keep on going to Cloud rest jct.

        Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®


        From: Peter Burke <pburke@...>
        Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:34:20 -0600
        To: <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] obtaining a permit

         

        On 2/25/2010 2:34 PM, Roleigh Martin wrote:
         

        I'm copying ex-ranger John.  Do you mean we could still camp at Cloud Rest junction our first night when the permit reads HI to Whitney Portal via LYV?  That would be fantastic!


        If a particular permit means you have to camp in a particular camp space, then I would say it will have to state that on the permit. Anyone have a permit from recent years and can confirm that?

        But why on earth would they care to enforce that there? LYV is a place where the less people stay there the better for it. Like I said in another message before - Yosemite wilderness permits state entry and exit locations and dates, nothing else, no mention of route or camp locations. Maybe the LYV permit does add more info to control the locations of where people camp, but I haven't seen permits for Happy Isles since 1989 when they were small handwritten forms.

        You have to realize this permit process is primarily a crowd control tool. It spreads the load of hikers over the days and area more evenly, but the variables are just too much to really enforce anything. they have far more rangers writing speeding tickets in the valley than monitor these backcountry areas. There's no permit for "HI entry to Clouds Rest intersection" anyway - only LYV or Sunrise. So either way, you'd not be camping where your permit states you should camp that first night. I understand the LYV permits as head count control for the LYV area, not to reduce traffic up all the trail directions that leave from there. The valley there is the heavy load zone, probably for all those Half Dome hikers, not for the handful of JMT or Merced river valley overnighters.

        It's bureaucracy gone mad if you now need to reserve backcountry camp sites for specific nights. I thought the rule for backcountry camping  in Yosemite was you can camp anywhere you like as long as you are at least 100 feet away from a trail, 100 feet away from water, and 4 miles away from developed areas (e.g. tuolumne meadows or Yos.Valley), and one mile from any roadway. LYV is far enough from the valley that you should be free to choose where to make camp. Technically, you should be allowed to crash 100 feet away from trail and river next to the waterfall unless there's a no camping sign. I only saw signs keeping me from swimming in the river above the falls, though :)

        For the park this is all about controlling large numbers of people and reducing impact. There is no reduced impact between you camping in LYV or near Clouds Rest Junction on night one. The 24 permits per day who get to go up there are absolutely nothing compared to the 400 odd day hikers who tear up the trail up to Half Dome each day. 

        Peter





        On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Peter Burke <pburke@doit. wisc.edu> wrote:
         

        On 2/25/2010 2:23 PM, Roleigh Martin wrote:
         

         Putting LYV on the permit only means for the first day, you have to camp there,


        it does not. It means "on your first day you PLAN to camp there."  Plans change, rangers could care less. These things are to control the masses, not a ticket you need to stamp at the camp site to get to continue.

        Peter




      • Roleigh Martin
        Who all is planning on going to Clouds Rest Junction to camp that night, July 18, 2010, a Sunday? There are 4-5 of us. (4 for sure, 5 maybe). Our permit
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 25, 2010
          Who all is planning on going to Clouds Rest Junction to camp that night, July 18, 2010, a Sunday? 
           
          There are 4-5 of us.  (4 for sure, 5 maybe).  Our permit reservation says first night is LYV so it's only if this is allowed once on the trail.
        • Bgibson
          I m planning on a start the same day, just not sure where I want to end up. bob ... From: Roleigh Martin Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail]
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 25, 2010
            I'm planning on a start the same day, just not sure where I want to end up.
            bob


            --- On Thu, 2/25/10, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...> wrote:

            From: Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...>
            Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] obtaining a permit
            To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, February 25, 2010, 5:41 PM

             
            Who all is planning on going to Clouds Rest Junction to camp that night, July 18, 2010, a Sunday? 
             
            There are 4-5 of us.  (4 for sure, 5 maybe).  Our permit reservation says first night is LYV so it's only if this is allowed once on the trail.

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