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Re: [John Muir Trail] obtaining a permit

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  • Peter Burke
    ... like anyone is gonna stop you once you walk up that trail? There are no punch cards and gates once you are in the wilderness. There s nothing they can do
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 25, 2010
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      On 2/25/2010 1:57 PM, snkworth wrote:
       


      >
      > Why did you not try HI to LYV -- that was my second choice and I got the
      > second choice.

      We like to hike further than LYV.


      like anyone is gonna stop you once you walk up that trail? There are no punch cards and gates once you are in the wilderness. There's nothing they can do from you changing your plans once you enter. All they control with these permits is number of hikers leaving for overnight travel at one location. HI is just silly in the respect of being a bottleneck for many destinations, so they have an arbitrary number for each direction. Take whatever is available, like even Merced Lake. Change your route as you go. The whole permit thing is one silly bureaucratic process with loopholes large enough you can plan a whole summer's worth of hiking and peak bagging with a single permit.

      my 2009 Muir Trail yo-yo hike permit issues by the ranger station at Tuolumne Meadows stated the following:

      entry date june 30, 2009
      entry trailhead (Cathedral Lakes)

      exit date august 3, 2009
      exit trailhead (Lyell Canyon)

      There wasn't a word about what we were doing and where we were headed. They had zero interest in our route beyond the initial day's entry point (which in our case was TM to Sunrise, down to the valley and back up) and some vague story about where we were going. 95% of the time was spent talking about fire circles, bear canisters and toilet paper.

      The permit process is completely different in Lone Pine / Inyo Natioal Forest, where you have to file a very detailed itinerary for your planned trip, camp sites for each day, etc - but they do realize you will rarely stick to the plan, yet it will help them find you in case you go missing. Yosemite has no clue where you are once you are out of their permit office.

      Peter

    • Peter Burke
      ... If a particular permit means you have to camp in a particular camp space, then I would say it will have to state that on the permit. Anyone have a permit
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 25, 2010
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        On 2/25/2010 2:34 PM, Roleigh Martin wrote:  

        I'm copying ex-ranger John.  Do you mean we could still camp at Cloud Rest junction our first night when the permit reads HI to Whitney Portal via LYV?  That would be fantastic!


        If a particular permit means you have to camp in a particular camp space, then I would say it will have to state that on the permit. Anyone have a permit from recent years and can confirm that?

        But why on earth would they care to enforce that there? LYV is a place where the less people stay there the better for it. Like I said in another message before - Yosemite wilderness permits state entry and exit locations and dates, nothing else, no mention of route or camp locations. Maybe the LYV permit does add more info to control the locations of where people camp, but I haven't seen permits for Happy Isles since 1989 when they were small handwritten forms.

        You have to realize this permit process is primarily a crowd control tool. It spreads the load of hikers over the days and area more evenly, but the variables are just too much to really enforce anything. they have far more rangers writing speeding tickets in the valley than monitor these backcountry areas. There's no permit for "HI entry to Clouds Rest intersection" anyway - only LYV or Sunrise. So either way, you'd not be camping where your permit states you should camp that first night. I understand the LYV permits as head count control for the LYV area, not to reduce traffic up all the trail directions that leave from there. The valley there is the heavy load zone, probably for all those Half Dome hikers, not for the handful of JMT or Merced river valley overnighters.

        It's bureaucracy gone mad if you now need to reserve backcountry camp sites for specific nights. I thought the rule for backcountry camping  in Yosemite was you can camp anywhere you like as long as you are at least 100 feet away from a trail, 100 feet away from water, and 4 miles away from developed areas (e.g. tuolumne meadows or Yos.Valley), and one mile from any roadway. LYV is far enough from the valley that you should be free to choose where to make camp. Technically, you should be allowed to crash 100 feet away from trail and river next to the waterfall unless there's a no camping sign. I only saw signs keeping me from swimming in the river above the falls, though :)

        For the park this is all about controlling large numbers of people and reducing impact. There is no reduced impact between you camping in LYV or near Clouds Rest Junction on night one. The 24 permits per day who get to go up there are absolutely nothing compared to the 400 odd day hikers who tear up the trail up to Half Dome each day. 

        Peter





        On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Peter Burke <pburke@doit. wisc.edu> wrote:
         

        On 2/25/2010 2:23 PM, Roleigh Martin wrote:
         

         Putting LYV on the permit only means for the first day, you have to camp there,


        it does not. It means "on your first day you PLAN to camp there."  Plans change, rangers could care less. These things are to control the masses, not a ticket you need to stamp at the camp site to get to continue.

        Peter




      • ed_rodriguez52@yahoo.com
        I sure hope this is true Peter, my first camp site was LYV but my plan was to arrive there eat and check to see how our body is holding up. If things are going
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 25, 2010
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          I sure hope this is true Peter, my first camp site was LYV but my plan was to arrive there eat and check to see how our body is holding up. If things are going good then keep on going to Cloud rest jct.

          Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®


          From: Peter Burke <pburke@...>
          Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:34:20 -0600
          To: <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] obtaining a permit

           

          On 2/25/2010 2:34 PM, Roleigh Martin wrote:
           

          I'm copying ex-ranger John.  Do you mean we could still camp at Cloud Rest junction our first night when the permit reads HI to Whitney Portal via LYV?  That would be fantastic!


          If a particular permit means you have to camp in a particular camp space, then I would say it will have to state that on the permit. Anyone have a permit from recent years and can confirm that?

          But why on earth would they care to enforce that there? LYV is a place where the less people stay there the better for it. Like I said in another message before - Yosemite wilderness permits state entry and exit locations and dates, nothing else, no mention of route or camp locations. Maybe the LYV permit does add more info to control the locations of where people camp, but I haven't seen permits for Happy Isles since 1989 when they were small handwritten forms.

          You have to realize this permit process is primarily a crowd control tool. It spreads the load of hikers over the days and area more evenly, but the variables are just too much to really enforce anything. they have far more rangers writing speeding tickets in the valley than monitor these backcountry areas. There's no permit for "HI entry to Clouds Rest intersection" anyway - only LYV or Sunrise. So either way, you'd not be camping where your permit states you should camp that first night. I understand the LYV permits as head count control for the LYV area, not to reduce traffic up all the trail directions that leave from there. The valley there is the heavy load zone, probably for all those Half Dome hikers, not for the handful of JMT or Merced river valley overnighters.

          It's bureaucracy gone mad if you now need to reserve backcountry camp sites for specific nights. I thought the rule for backcountry camping  in Yosemite was you can camp anywhere you like as long as you are at least 100 feet away from a trail, 100 feet away from water, and 4 miles away from developed areas (e.g. tuolumne meadows or Yos.Valley), and one mile from any roadway. LYV is far enough from the valley that you should be free to choose where to make camp. Technically, you should be allowed to crash 100 feet away from trail and river next to the waterfall unless there's a no camping sign. I only saw signs keeping me from swimming in the river above the falls, though :)

          For the park this is all about controlling large numbers of people and reducing impact. There is no reduced impact between you camping in LYV or near Clouds Rest Junction on night one. The 24 permits per day who get to go up there are absolutely nothing compared to the 400 odd day hikers who tear up the trail up to Half Dome each day. 

          Peter





          On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Peter Burke <pburke@doit. wisc.edu> wrote:
           

          On 2/25/2010 2:23 PM, Roleigh Martin wrote:
           

           Putting LYV on the permit only means for the first day, you have to camp there,


          it does not. It means "on your first day you PLAN to camp there."  Plans change, rangers could care less. These things are to control the masses, not a ticket you need to stamp at the camp site to get to continue.

          Peter




        • Roleigh Martin
          Who all is planning on going to Clouds Rest Junction to camp that night, July 18, 2010, a Sunday? There are 4-5 of us. (4 for sure, 5 maybe). Our permit
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 25, 2010
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            Who all is planning on going to Clouds Rest Junction to camp that night, July 18, 2010, a Sunday? 
             
            There are 4-5 of us.  (4 for sure, 5 maybe).  Our permit reservation says first night is LYV so it's only if this is allowed once on the trail.
          • Bgibson
            I m planning on a start the same day, just not sure where I want to end up. bob ... From: Roleigh Martin Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail]
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 25, 2010
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              I'm planning on a start the same day, just not sure where I want to end up.
              bob


              --- On Thu, 2/25/10, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...> wrote:

              From: Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...>
              Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] obtaining a permit
              To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, February 25, 2010, 5:41 PM

               
              Who all is planning on going to Clouds Rest Junction to camp that night, July 18, 2010, a Sunday? 
               
              There are 4-5 of us.  (4 for sure, 5 maybe).  Our permit reservation says first night is LYV so it's only if this is allowed once on the trail.

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