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Small question about permits.......

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  • mvkazit
    Small question about permits....... Does anybody from this group ever has been asked to show his/her permit on the trail ?
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 2, 2009
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      Small question about permits....... Does anybody from this group ever has been asked to show his/her permit on the trail ?
    • ed_rodriguez52@yahoo.com
      Yes, almost each time I went out even on the weekends hikes. I keep mine where I keep the map for the area that am in. Ed Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 2, 2009
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        Yes, almost each time I went out even on the weekends hikes. I keep mine where I keep the map for the area that am in. Ed

        Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®


        From: "mvkazit"
        Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 22:10:47 -0000
        To: <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: [John Muir Trail] Small question about permits.......

         

        Small question about permits..... .. Does anybody from this group ever has been asked to show his/her permit on the trail ?

      • Peter Burke
        never, and that is in 10 Muir Trail hikes over the last 21 years
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 2, 2009
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          never, and that is in 10 Muir Trail hikes over the last 21 years


          mvkazit wrote:
          >
          >
          > Small question about permits....... Does anybody from this group ever
          > has been asked to show his/her permit on the trail ?
          >


          >
          >
        • John Ladd
          Yes - near Ida Bell Hot Springs. Rangers with a trail crew from the Natl Forest (Sierra NF?) asked a group of us (including some four 20-somethings) to show
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 2, 2009
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            Yes - near Ida Bell Hot Springs.  Rangers with a trail crew from the Natl Forest (Sierra NF?) asked a group of us (including some four 20-somethings) to show our permits.  These four were travelling on a PCT thru-permit (issued by PCTA -- Pacific  Crest Trail Assn) and they were reminded that it was not valid at Ida Bell because they were off the PCT itself.  (Since they were within 1/2 mile or so from the PCT, the the FS rangers did not make a big deal about it)

            I've been asked if I have a permit in National Parks but the rangers have tended to believe me when I've said "yes" and started to struggle to take off my pack to find it.  So I don't recall having to show one recently, though have in years past.  It's easier to have it handy so you can show it.

            I guess I think that it's not cool to travel without a permit, so keep it handy and eliminate the question.
             
            John Curran Ladd
            1616 Castro Street
            San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
            415-648-9279



          • Kevin Balla
            You should definitely have a permit handy. I ve been asked twice on my past three trips (Yosemite, Zion) ... and I ve had them all three times. They waited
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 2, 2009
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              You should definitely have a permit handy.

              I've been asked twice on my past three trips (Yosemite, Zion) ... and I've had them all three times.  They waited until I actually pulled it out, examined it, etc.  I also like to ask about the repercussions of going out without a permit and they always say it's a pretty hefty amount.  It's a federal offense I think?


              From: John Ladd <johnladd@...>
              To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2009 3:42:51 PM
              Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Small question about permits.......

               

              Yes - near Ida Bell Hot Springs.  Rangers with a trail crew from the Natl Forest (Sierra NF?) asked a group of us (including some four 20-somethings) to show our permits.  These four were travelling on a PCT thru-permit (issued by PCTA -- Pacific  Crest Trail Assn) and they were reminded that it was not valid at Ida Bell because they were off the PCT itself.  (Since they were within 1/2 mile or so from the PCT, the the FS rangers did not make a big deal about it)

              I've been asked if I have a permit in National Parks but the rangers have tended to believe me when I've said "yes" and started to struggle to take off my pack to find it.  So I don't recall having to show one recently, though have in years past.  It's easier to have it handy so you can show it.

              I guess I think that it's not cool to travel without a permit, so keep it handy and eliminate the question.
               
              John Curran Ladd
              1616 Castro Street
              San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
              415-648-9279




            • Bgibson
              Yes, two separate times on my JMT hike this summer.  Maybe I just look like a person of dubious character and intent. Bob ... From: mvkazit
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 2, 2009
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                Yes, two separate times on my JMT hike this summer.  Maybe I just look like a person of dubious character and intent.
                Bob

                --- On Wed, 9/2/09, mvkazit <mvkazit@...> wrote:

                From: mvkazit <mvkazit@...>
                Subject: [John Muir Trail] Small question about permits.......
                To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, September 2, 2009, 6:10 PM

                 
                Small question about permits..... .. Does anybody from this group ever has been asked to show his/her permit on the trail ?


              • ed_rodriguez52@yahoo.com
                Say by the way do they charge for a permit on the JMT south bound starting in YV if so how much is it Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® ...
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 2, 2009
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                  Say by the way do they charge for a permit on the JMT south bound starting in YV if so how much is it

                  Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®


                  From: Bgibson
                  Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 16:17:25 -0700 (PDT)
                  To: <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com>
                  Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Small question about permits.......

                   

                  Yes, two separate times on my JMT hike this summer.  Maybe I just look like a person of dubious character and intent.
                  Bob

                  --- On Wed, 9/2/09, mvkazit <mvkazit@gmail. com> wrote:

                  From: mvkazit <mvkazit@gmail. com>
                  Subject: [John Muir Trail] Small question about permits..... ..
                  To: johnmuirtrail@ yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Wednesday, September 2, 2009, 6:10 PM

                   
                  Small question about permits..... .. Does anybody from this group ever has been asked to show his/her permit on the trail ?


                • Bgibson
                  no charge -- in other words, free for the asking ... From: ed_rodriguez52@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Small question
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 2, 2009
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                    no charge -- in other words, free for the asking


                    --- On Wed, 9/2/09, ed_rodriguez52@... <ed_rodriguez52@...> wrote:

                    From: ed_rodriguez52@... <ed_rodriguez52@...>
                    Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Small question about permits.......
                    To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Wednesday, September 2, 2009, 7:27 PM

                     
                    Say by the way do they charge for a permit on the JMT south bound starting in YV if so how much is it
                    Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

                    From: Bgibson
                    Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 16:17:25 -0700 (PDT)
                    To: <johnmuirtrail@ yahoogroups. com>
                    Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Small question about permits..... ..
                     
                    Yes, two separate times on my JMT hike this summer.  Maybe I just look like a person of dubious character and intent.
                    Bob

                    --- On Wed, 9/2/09, mvkazit <mvkazit@gmail. com> wrote:

                    From: mvkazit <mvkazit@gmail. com>
                    Subject: [John Muir Trail] Small question about permits..... ..
                    To: johnmuirtrail@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Wednesday, September 2, 2009, 6:10 PM

                     
                    Small question about permits..... .. Does anybody from this group ever has been asked to show his/her permit on the trail ?



                  • onkelb0b
                    This story sounds odd... IANAL (and something tells me John is:^) However, trail permits are not valid for a particular area as much as they are valid for
                    Message 9 of 16 , Sep 2, 2009
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                      This story sounds odd... IANAL (and something tells me John is:^) However, trail permits are not valid for a particular area as much as they are valid for _entry_. The permit system is designed, first and foremost, to control the number of people entering a trailhead. Every ranger asks for the expected itinerary, but then in the next breath says "we are not going to hold you to it." Therefore, wandering off trail is allowed and expected. (I hiked the JMT 96, 00, 04, and 08, and my middle two trips went through Fish Creek Hot Springs, (It was raining both times, so I figured if I was going to get wet, I may as well be wet and warm.) Fish Creek is a couple of miles off the JMT, I crossed Goodale to get to VVR instead of Silver, never a question from the rangers.

                      This is reminiscent of the debate whether SEKI backcountry can issue permits to climb Whitney (without getting permission from Inyo NF). The rule of thumb is once you enter with a valid permit, you are free to go wherever your burning feet take you. The exceptions are few, private land, military reservations, and closed areas such as Baxter Pass, are your limitations. You need the permit to enter, and if found without, you are eligible for a $250 fine and escort to the nearest (not the desired!) exit. Some NF's require fire permits. However, that is covered if you have a valid trail entry permit. FWIW - the permit system is to protect the land from overuse as well as provide SAR operations a starting point if they need to extract you from the wilderness.

                      BTW, I did a weird figure eight hike a couple years back. I entered Roads End in Kings Canyon, and I climbed Copper Creek to Granite Pass then hiked towards the JMT via Simpson Meadow. I then hiked the JMT to Woods Creek and went out to Roads End via Paradise Trail. After I collected a food cache left in the bear boxes, I walked back in towards Bubbs Creek to hike Rae Lakes loop counterclockwise. Why? save the $15 permit fee:^)) And the rangers were OK with that convoluted itinerary.

                      --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Yes - near Ida Bell Hot Springs. Rangers with a trail crew from the Natl
                      > Forest (Sierra NF?) asked a group of us (including some four 20-somethings)
                      > to show our permits. These four were travelling on a PCT thru-permit
                      > (issued by PCTA -- Pacific Crest Trail Assn) and they were reminded that it
                      > was not valid at Ida Bell because they were off the PCT itself. (Since they
                      > were within 1/2 mile or so from the PCT, the the FS rangers did not make a
                      > big deal about it)
                      >
                      > I've been asked if I have a permit in National Parks but the rangers have
                      > tended to believe me when I've said "yes" and started to struggle to take
                      > off my pack to find it. So I don't recall having to show one recently,
                      > though have in years past. It's easier to have it handy so you can show it.
                      >
                      > I guess I think that it's not cool to travel without a permit, so keep it
                      > handy and eliminate the question.
                      >
                      > John Curran Ladd
                      > 1616 Castro Street
                      > San Francisco, CA 94114-3707
                      > 415-648-9279
                      >
                    • ed_rodriguez52@yahoo.com
                      Ok thank you. Glad to hear something is free Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® ... From: Bgibson Date: Wed, 2 Sep
                      Message 10 of 16 , Sep 2, 2009
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                        Ok thank you. Glad to hear something is free

                        Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®


                        From: Bgibson
                        Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 16:38:29 -0700 (PDT)
                        To: <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com>
                        Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Small question about permits.......

                         

                        no charge -- in other words, free for the asking


                        --- On Wed, 9/2/09, ed_rodriguez52@ yahoo.com <ed_rodriguez52@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                        From: ed_rodriguez52@ yahoo.com <ed_rodriguez52@ yahoo.com>
                        Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Small question about permits..... ..
                        To: johnmuirtrail@ yahoogroups. com
                        Date: Wednesday, September 2, 2009, 7:27 PM

                         
                        Say by the way do they charge for a permit on the JMT south bound starting in YV if so how much is it
                        Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

                        From: Bgibson
                        Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 16:17:25 -0700 (PDT)
                        To: <johnmuirtrail@ yahoogroups. com>
                        Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Small question about permits..... ..
                         
                        Yes, two separate times on my JMT hike this summer.  Maybe I just look like a person of dubious character and intent.
                        Bob

                        --- On Wed, 9/2/09, mvkazit <mvkazit@gmail. com> wrote:

                        From: mvkazit <mvkazit@gmail. com>
                        Subject: [John Muir Trail] Small question about permits..... ..
                        To: johnmuirtrail@ yahoogroups. com
                        Date: Wednesday, September 2, 2009, 6:10 PM

                         
                        Small question about permits..... .. Does anybody from this group ever has been asked to show his/her permit on the trail ?



                      • John Ladd
                        Response to: This story sounds odd... IANAL (and something tells me John is:^) However, trail permits are not valid for a particular area as much as they are
                        Message 11 of 16 , Sep 2, 2009
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                          Response to:

                          "This story sounds odd... IANAL (and something tells me John is:^) However, trail permits are not valid for a particular area as much as they are valid for _entry_."

                          I also understand that most permits are entry permits, but the PCTA thru-permit is an exception (and I don't know of other exceptions).  The PCT thru-permit is issued by a private, non-profit association (The Pacirtic Crest Trail Ass'n) and is therefore a pretty unusual form of permit.  It maybe that some of the (governmental) jurisdictions along the route, who are more familiar with permits issued by adjoining (governmental) jurisdictions are more comfortable with government-issued permits that privately-issued permits.  Therefore they may insist on reading the permit narrowly.

                          The PCT thru-permit is valid only along the PCT itself, and requires you to have a planned route that is at least 500 miles.  (Of course, they have no way of knowing whether you actually traveled that far).

                          There is a danger of abuse of PCTA permits, so that may be why they are read restrictively.  If they didn't restrict them, people might apply for a PCTA thru permit every year -- covering the entire Sierra and use it whenever they wanted to enter anywhere and claim that they were just heading back to the PCT.

                          While the Forest Service Rangers raised the issue, and told the "kids" to stay on the PCT in the future, they did not make a huge deal about it.  They were quite civil about it.

                          John Curran Ladd
                          1616 Castro Street
                          San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                          415-648-9279

                        • Barbara Karagosian
                          Permit asking seems to vary with the ranger. I ve had one ask me about 2 miles from TM towards Glen Aulin, - maybe cos I had a large day pack. And one ask me
                          Message 12 of 16 , Sep 2, 2009
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                            Permit asking seems to vary with the ranger.  I’ve had one ask me about 2 miles from TM towards Glen Aulin, - maybe cos I had a large day pack.  And one ask me close to Young Lake, also in Yosemite.  Don’t think I’ve seen a ranger anywhere else.

                             


                            From: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com [mailto: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of John Ladd
                            Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 3:43 PM
                            To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Small question about permits.......

                             

                             

                            Yes - near Ida Bell Hot Springs.  Rangers with a trail crew from the Natl Forest ( Sierra NF ?) asked a group of us (including some four 20-somethings) to show our permits.  These four were travelling on a PCT thru-permit (issued by PCTA -- Pacific  Crest Trail Assn) and they were reminded that it was not valid at Ida Bell because they were off the PCT itself.  (Since they were within 1/2 mile or so from the PCT, the the FS rangers did not make a big deal about it)

                            I've been asked if I have a permit in National Parks but the rangers have tended to believe me when I've said "yes" and started to struggle to take off my pack to find it.  So I don't recall having to show one recently, though have in years past.  It's easier to have it handy so you can show it.

                            I guess I think that it's not cool to travel without a permit, so keep it handy and eliminate the question.
                             
                            John Curran Ladd
                            1616 Castro Street
                            San Francisco , CA   94114-3707
                            415-648-9279


                          • Barbara Karagosian
                            And the Yosemite rangers who asked for permits also asked what bear canister I had, but didn t actually ask to see it. _____ From:
                            Message 13 of 16 , Sep 2, 2009
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                              And the Yosemite rangers who asked for permits also asked what bear canister I had, but didn’t actually ask to see it.

                               


                              From: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com [mailto: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Kevin Balla
                              Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 4:07 PM
                              To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Small question about permits.......

                               

                               

                              You should definitely have a permit handy.

                              I've been asked twice on my past three trips (Yosemite, Zion ) ... and I've had them all three times.  They waited until I actually pulled it out, examined it, etc.  I also like to ask about the repercussions of going out without a permit and they always say it's a pretty hefty amount.  It's a federal offense I think?

                               


                              From: John Ladd <johnladd@gmail. com>
                              To: johnmuirtrail@ yahoogroups. com
                              Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2009 3:42:51 PM
                              Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Small question about permits..... ..

                               

                              Yes - near Ida Bell Hot Springs.  Rangers with a trail crew from the Natl Forest ( Sierra NF ?) asked a group of us (including some four 20-somethings) to show our permits.  These four were travelling on a PCT thru-permit (issued by PCTA -- Pacific  Crest Trail Assn) and they were reminded that it was not valid at Ida Bell because they were off the PCT itself.  (Since they were within 1/2 mile or so from the PCT, the the FS rangers did not make a big deal about it)

                              I've been asked if I have a permit in National Parks but the rangers have tended to believe me when I've said "yes" and started to struggle to take off my pack to find it.  So I don't recall having to show one recently, though have in years past.  It's easier to have it handy so you can show it.

                              I guess I think that it's not cool to travel without a permit, so keep it handy and eliminate the question.
                               
                              John Curran Ladd
                              1616 Castro Street
                              San Francisco , CA   94114-3707
                              415-648-9279


                               

                            • Peter Burke
                              Our Muir Trail Yo-Yo permit this summer consisted of a whopping four pieces of information entry date entry trailhead exit date exit trailhead and since it was
                              Message 14 of 16 , Sep 2, 2009
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                                Our Muir Trail Yo-Yo permit this summer consisted of a whopping four
                                pieces of information

                                entry date
                                entry trailhead
                                exit date
                                exit trailhead

                                and since it was a yo-yo, entry was where exit was, except that it
                                stated we had about 4 1/2 weeks to be out in the wild. Even though I
                                had a printed detailed schedule of our trip with me, the ranger in the
                                permit office was absolutely disinterested in that information. Didn't
                                want to keep it or even make a note of what our rough plans were.

                                Now, to me, that permit was carte blanche to go anywhere in the Sierras.
                                Why force PCT hikers to stay on the PCT when hikers like our group can
                                go anywhere? Seems like PCT hikers should go and get themselves a second
                                permit for the Sierras so they can hike without the wrath of some
                                unhappy ranger chasing them out of a hot spring (although I think Iva
                                Bell isn't worth the detour).



                                John Ladd wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > Yes - near Ida Bell Hot Springs. Rangers with a trail crew from the
                                > Natl Forest (Sierra NF?) asked a group of us (including some four
                                > 20-somethings) to show our permits. These four were travelling on a
                                > PCT thru-permit (issued by PCTA -- Pacific Crest Trail Assn) and they
                                > were reminded that it was not valid at Ida Bell because they were off
                                > the PCT itself. (Since they were within 1/2 mile or so from the PCT,
                                > the the FS rangers did not make a big deal about it)
                                >
                              • hmdsierra
                                Probably twice. When my son and I did it the Ranger caught up to us and mentioned she didn t need to see ours even though she asked somebody else that walked
                                Message 15 of 16 , Sep 2, 2009
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                                  Probably twice. When my son and I did it the Ranger caught up to us and mentioned she didn't need to see ours even though she asked somebody else that walked up while we were talking to her. This was in LeConte two weeks into the hike. The last time was when my friend and I finished the south half. The person in front of me got their permit then the Ranger announced that the quota for Bishop Pass had been filled. We got one for Treasure Lks the first day but didn't want to kill a day so we went for it. Just starting up the pass a ranger caught us. We explained that we just wanted to make time to get to the trail and he let us go. That evening we camped in Dusy Basin and our neighbor told us that after the permit line was done he explained that he wanted to do the S Lk N Lk loop and they gave him one for over the pass.

                                  --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Peter Burke <pburke@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > never, and that is in 10 Muir Trail hikes over the last 21 years
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > mvkazit wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Small question about permits....... Does anybody from this group ever
                                  > > has been asked to show his/her permit on the trail ?
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • herbstroh
                                  On our JMT-thur hike this year we were checked 3-4 times. But ironically, not in the Whitney Zone. Yosemite is pretty aggressive in checking. There was a
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Sep 3, 2009
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                                    On our JMT-thur hike this year we were checked 3-4 times. But ironically, not in the Whitney Zone.

                                    Yosemite is pretty aggressive in checking. There was a ranger patrolling Lylell canyon for the express purpose of checking permits. Chatting with him, he indicated that they have someone patrolling that area daily. We were also checked a couple times while in the Kings Canyon jurisdiction. I do recall a ranger at Tyndall asking for a permit. We were also asked about bear cans but not compelled to show them. And they always told us about where you can't have a fire.

                                    The rangers were cool about it, just doing their job. In fact, we had planned to camp up Lylell Canyon just past the closed area, about 4 miles past the campground. The ranger in Lylell told us we were still a mile short, but was ok with it so long as the site was not visible from the trail and we did not plan a campfire.

                                    If you can't get in exactly where you want, keep asking for options--different trail heads, different first nights, etc. They want to make it work for you.

                                    --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "mvkazit" <mvkazit@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Small question about permits....... Does anybody from this group ever has been asked to show his/her permit on the trail ?
                                    >
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