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Breaking the Permit Rules

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  • clailey2
    Before I even ask this question, let me first say that I am a tried-and-true rule follower. Whatever the rule or regulation, I m on board. I m a respectful,
    Message 1 of 20 , Aug 19, 2014

      Before I even ask this question, let me first say that I am a tried-and-true rule follower. Whatever the rule or regulation, I'm on board. I'm a respectful, law abiding non-rebel father of four.

      But... when it comes to the JMT and the permit I have been given (vs. the one I prefer) I find myself seriously asking, what would happen if...?


      So... not meaning to suggest I will break any rules (because it's against my nature), I was just wondering what others in this forum think of this, um, temptation of mine? Please be kind!


      I have a permit for early September for Glacier Point to LYV. My understanding is I am required to camp at LYV on the first night.


      I did the JMT last year and got the exact same permit, which I followed faithfully.


      Last year I averaged about 18 miles a day, so I'd prefer to get well beyond LYV on the first day. It's not that I'm super fit or super fast, but I do prefer solitude and I would much rather spend 7 or 8 hours on the trail than 7 or 8 hours waiting around at LYV for the day to pass, especially the first day on the trail when I'll be very excited to move!


      If I get stopped by a ranger beyond LYV on my first day (should I choose to rebel) will I get kicked off the trail? Am I hurting the trail? Am I being selfish and hurting other hikers? Am I being overly fearful and unrealistic about uncertain consequences? Is my selfish desire to go out there to the wild places clouding my need to be respectful and obedient to the various aspects of the permit system?


      I am simply looking for more information on this topic and honestly don't mean to imply that I have any plans to disobey the rules. I am blessed to be given the opportunity to hike this amazing trail once again and certainly don't want to do a single thing to jeopardize my upcoming adventure. Thank-you for reading my post and especially for any input.

    • John Ladd
      I m just guessing here, but one reason for the distinction between LYV and pass-through permits is that if more people were allowed to go past LYV (who
      Message 2 of 20 , Aug 19, 2014
        I'm just guessing here, but one reason for the distinction between LYV and pass-through permits is that if more people were allowed to go past LYV (who wouldn't want to) they' all congregate just past the Half Dome junction (from there to the Clouds Rest Junction) and that area would get over-used. That's the only reason I can think of why it might be unethical, as well as illegal, to not follow the rules.

        There are lots of rangers in that area. Your biggest risk area for being ticketed would be the stretch from LYV to the HD junction.

        I do understand the reason for the question and I hope this is a non-judgmental reply. I suppose we all -- even those of us who pride ourselves in following the regs -- bend the rules on occasion when we think (1) we will get away with it and (2) the rule is more bureaucratic than wilderness-protective. You can make the judgment on both #1 and #2 above.

        John Curran Ladd
        1616 Castro Street
        San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
        415-648-9279


        On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 2:15 PM, chris@... [johnmuirtrail] <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
         

        Before I even ask this question, let me first say that I am a tried-and-true rule follower. Whatever the rule or regulation, I'm on board. I'm a respectful, law abiding non-rebel father of four.

        But... when it comes to the JMT and the permit I have been given (vs. the one I prefer) I find myself seriously asking, what would happen if...?


        So... not meaning to suggest I will break any rules (because it's against my nature), I was just wondering what others in this forum think of this, um, temptation of mine? Please be kind!


        I have a permit for early September for Glacier Point to LYV. My understanding is I am required to camp at LYV on the first night.


        I did the JMT last year and got the exact same permit, which I followed faithfully.


        Last year I averaged about 18 miles a day, so I'd prefer to get well beyond LYV on the first day. It's not that I'm super fit or super fast, but I do prefer solitude and I would much rather spend 7 or 8 hours on the trail than 7 or 8 hours waiting around at LYV for the day to pass, especially the first day on the trail when I'll be very excited to move!


        If I get stopped by a ranger beyond LYV on my first day (should I choose to rebel) will I get kicked off the trail? Am I hurting the trail? Am I being selfish and hurting other hikers? Am I being overly fearful and unrealistic about uncertain consequences? Is my selfish desire to go out there to the wild places clouding my need to be respectful and obedient to the various aspects of the permit system?


        I am simply looking for more information on this topic and honestly don't mean to imply that I have any plans to disobey the rules. I am blessed to be given the opportunity to hike this amazing trail once again and certainly don't want to do a single thing to jeopardize my upcoming adventure. Thank-you for reading my post and especially for any input.


      • clailey2
        John, Thanks for your reply. That makes sense about traffic just past Half Dome and over-use. Maybe I should simply slow down on my first day. Leave a little
        Message 3 of 20 , Aug 19, 2014
          John,
          Thanks for your reply. That makes sense about traffic just past Half Dome and over-use.

          Maybe I should simply slow down on my first day. Leave a little later. Take a few breaks. Set up my tent near a big tree in LYV and climb up half dome (which I skipped last year).

          :-)

          Chris
        • Bill Heiser
          I ve read about (though don t have any first-hand accounts) people being not only being hit with hefty fines, but also being escorted off the trail due to
          Message 4 of 20 , Aug 19, 2014
          I've read about (though don't have any first-hand accounts) people being not only being hit with hefty fines, but also being escorted off the trail due to permit violations.  That sure would be an unhappy way to end your hike...



          August 19, 2014 at 2:24 PM
           
          I'm just guessing here, but one reason for the distinction between LYV and pass-through permits is that if more people were allowed to go past LYV (who wouldn't want to) they' all congregate just past the Half Dome junction (from there to the Clouds Rest Junction) and that area would get over-used. That's the only reason I can think of why it might be unethical, as well as illegal, to not follow the rules.

          There are lots of rangers in that area. Your biggest risk area for being ticketed would be the stretch from LYV to the HD junction.

          I do understand the reason for the question and I hope this is a non-judgmental reply. I suppose we all -- even those of us who pride ourselves in following the regs -- bend the rules on occasion when we think (1) we will get away with it and (2) the rule is more bureaucratic than wilderness-protective. You can make the judgment on both #1 and #2 above.

          John Curran Ladd
          1616 Castro Street
          San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
          415-648-9279



          August 19, 2014 at 2:15 PM
           

          Before I even ask this question, let me first say that I am a tried-and-true rule follower. Whatever the rule or regulation, I'm on board. I'm a respectful, law abiding non-rebel father of four.

          But... when it comes to the JMT and the permit I have been given (vs. the one I prefer) I find myself seriously asking, what would happen if...?


          So... not meaning to suggest I will break any rules (because it's against my nature), I was just wondering what others in this forum think of this, um, temptation of mine? Please be kind!


          I have a permit for early September for Glacier Point to LYV. My understanding is I am required to camp at LYV on the first night.


          I did the JMT last year and got the exact same permit, which I followed faithfully.


          Last year I averaged about 18 miles a day, so I'd prefer to get well beyond LYV on the first day. It's not that I'm super fit or super fast, but I do prefer solitude and I would much rather spend 7 or 8 hours on the trail than 7 or 8 hours waiting around at LYV for the day to pass, especially the first day on the trail when I'll be very excited to move!


          If I get stopped by a ranger beyond LYV on my first day (should I choose to rebel) will I get kicked off the trail? Am I hurting the trail? Am I being selfish and hurting other hikers? Am I being overly fearful and unrealistic about uncertain consequences? Is my selfish desire to go out there to the wild places clouding my need to be respectful and obedient to the various aspects of the permit system?


          I am simply looking for more information on this topic and honestly don't mean to imply that I have any plans to disobey the rules. I am blessed to be given the opportunity to hike this amazing trail once again and certainly don't want to do a single thing to jeopardize my upcoming adventure. Thank-you for reading my post and especially for any input.

      • Roleigh Martin
        Why start so early if you re going to have that much time to kill at LYV? Alternatively, the Merced River near the LYV camp is such a great swimming hole, take
        Message 5 of 20 , Aug 19, 2014
          Why start so early if you're going to have that much time to kill at LYV?  Alternatively, the Merced River near the LYV camp is such a great swimming hole, take out some time to go swimming there.  

          Also ask the ranger if there are other options for you.  If he/she gives you one you want but is "unconventional", be sure and jot down the Ranger's name.  

          I do heavily recommend following the rules especially on the first 2 days out, there are so many permit checks then.



          -------------------------------------------------
          Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
          _



          On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 2:24 PM, John Ladd johnladd@... [johnmuirtrail] <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
           

          I'm just guessing here, but one reason for the distinction between LYV and pass-through permits is that if more people were allowed to go past LYV (who wouldn't want to) they' all congregate just past the Half Dome junction (from there to the Clouds Rest Junction) and that area would get over-used. That's the only reason I can think of why it might be unethical, as well as illegal, to not follow the rules.

          There are lots of rangers in that area. Your biggest risk area for being ticketed would be the stretch from LYV to the HD junction.

          I do understand the reason for the question and I hope this is a non-judgmental reply. I suppose we all -- even those of us who pride ourselves in following the regs -- bend the rules on occasion when we think (1) we will get away with it and (2) the rule is more bureaucratic than wilderness-protective. You can make the judgment on both #1 and #2 above.

          John Curran Ladd
          1616 Castro Street
          San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
          415-648-9279


          On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 2:15 PM, chris@... [johnmuirtrail] <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
           

          Before I even ask this question, let me first say that I am a tried-and-true rule follower. Whatever the rule or regulation, I'm on board. I'm a respectful, law abiding non-rebel father of four.

          But... when it comes to the JMT and the permit I have been given (vs. the one I prefer) I find myself seriously asking, what would happen if...?


          So... not meaning to suggest I will break any rules (because it's against my nature), I was just wondering what others in this forum think of this, um, temptation of mine? Please be kind!


          I have a permit for early September for Glacier Point to LYV. My understanding is I am required to camp at LYV on the first night.


          I did the JMT last year and got the exact same permit, which I followed faithfully.


          Last year I averaged about 18 miles a day, so I'd prefer to get well beyond LYV on the first day. It's not that I'm super fit or super fast, but I do prefer solitude and I would much rather spend 7 or 8 hours on the trail than 7 or 8 hours waiting around at LYV for the day to pass, especially the first day on the trail when I'll be very excited to move!


          If I get stopped by a ranger beyond LYV on my first day (should I choose to rebel) will I get kicked off the trail? Am I hurting the trail? Am I being selfish and hurting other hikers? Am I being overly fearful and unrealistic about uncertain consequences? Is my selfish desire to go out there to the wild places clouding my need to be respectful and obedient to the various aspects of the permit system?


          I am simply looking for more information on this topic and honestly don't mean to imply that I have any plans to disobey the rules. I am blessed to be given the opportunity to hike this amazing trail once again and certainly don't want to do a single thing to jeopardize my upcoming adventure. Thank-you for reading my post and especially for any input.



        • Barbara Karagosian
          Perhaps ask for your preferred alternative when u get yr permit?
          Message 6 of 20 , Aug 19, 2014
            Perhaps ask for your preferred alternative when u get yr permit?



            On Aug 19, 2014, at 2:24 PM, "John Ladd johnladd@... [johnmuirtrail]" <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             

            I'm just guessing here, but one reason for the distinction between LYV and pass-through permits is that if more people were allowed to go past LYV (who wouldn't want to) they' all congregate just past the Half Dome junction (from there to the Clouds Rest Junction) and that area would get over-used. That's the only reason I can think of why it might be unethical, as well as illegal, to not follow the rules.

            There are lots of rangers in that area. Your biggest risk area for being ticketed would be the stretch from LYV to the HD junction.

            I do understand the reason for the question and I hope this is a non-judgmental reply. I suppose we all -- even those of us who pride ourselves in following the regs -- bend the rules on occasion when we think (1) we will get away with it and (2) the rule is more bureaucratic than wilderness-protective. You can make the judgment on both #1 and #2 above.

            John Curran Ladd
            1616 Castro Street
            San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
            415-648-9279


            On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 2:15 PM, chris@... [johnmuirtrail] <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
             

            Before I even ask this question, let me first say that I am a tried-and-true rule follower. Whatever the rule or regulation, I'm on board. I'm a respectful, law abiding non-rebel father of four.

            But... when it comes to the JMT and the permit I have been given (vs. the one I prefer) I find myself seriously asking, what would happen if...?


            So... not meaning to suggest I will break any rules (because it's against my nature), I was just wondering what others in this forum think of this, um, temptation of mine? Please be kind!


            I have a permit for early September for Glacier Point to LYV. My understanding is I am required to camp at LYV on the first night.


            I did the JMT last year and got the exact same permit, which I followed faithfully.


            Last year I averaged about 18 miles a day, so I'd prefer to get well beyond LYV on the first day. It's not that I'm super fit or super fast, but I do prefer solitude and I would much rather spend 7 or 8 hours on the trail than 7 or 8 hours waiting around at LYV for the day to pass, especially the first day on the trail when I'll be very excited to move!


            If I get stopped by a ranger beyond LYV on my first day (should I choose to rebel) will I get kicked off the trail? Am I hurting the trail? Am I being selfish and hurting other hikers? Am I being overly fearful and unrealistic about uncertain consequences? Is my selfish desire to go out there to the wild places clouding my need to be respectful and obedient to the various aspects of the permit system?


            I am simply looking for more information on this topic and honestly don't mean to imply that I have any plans to disobey the rules. I am blessed to be given the opportunity to hike this amazing trail once again and certainly don't want to do a single thing to jeopardize my upcoming adventure. Thank-you for reading my post and especially for any input.


          • eric moss
            Getting booted out would be pretty frustrating. I m not interested in hanging around Illilouette all day, just camping there the first night like my permit
            Message 7 of 20 , Aug 19, 2014
              Getting booted out would be pretty frustrating.  I'm not interested in hanging around Illilouette all day, just camping there the first night like my permit says.  I'd like to hike up to say, Glacier Point, but don't want to leave my gear untended.  Getting fined because I'm on the "wrong" part of the trail at 5pm would be horrible.


              On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 5:40 PM, Bill Heiser bill@... [johnmuirtrail] <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
               
              [Attachment(s) from Bill Heiser included below]

              I've read about (though don't have any first-hand accounts) people being not only being hit with hefty fines, but also being escorted off the trail due to permit violations.  That sure would be an unhappy way to end your hike...



              August 19, 2014 at 2:24 PM
               
              I'm just guessing here, but one reason for the distinction between LYV and pass-through permits is that if more people were allowed to go past LYV (who wouldn't want to) they' all congregate just past the Half Dome junction (from there to the Clouds Rest Junction) and that area would get over-used. That's the only reason I can think of why it might be unethical, as well as illegal, to not follow the rules.

              There are lots of rangers in that area. Your biggest risk area for being ticketed would be the stretch from LYV to the HD junction.

              I do understand the reason for the question and I hope this is a non-judgmental reply. I suppose we all -- even those of us who pride ourselves in following the regs -- bend the rules on occasion when we think (1) we will get away with it and (2) the rule is more bureaucratic than wilderness-protective. You can make the judgment on both #1 and #2 above.

              John Curran Ladd
              1616 Castro Street
              San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
              415-648-9279



              August 19, 2014 at 2:15 PM
               

              Before I even ask this question, let me first say that I am a tried-and-true rule follower. Whatever the rule or regulation, I'm on board. I'm a respectful, law abiding non-rebel father of four.

              But... when it comes to the JMT and the permit I have been given (vs. the one I prefer) I find myself seriously asking, what would happen if...?


              So... not meaning to suggest I will break any rules (because it's against my nature), I was just wondering what others in this forum think of this, um, temptation of mine? Please be kind!


              I have a permit for early September for Glacier Point to LYV. My understanding is I am required to camp at LYV on the first night.


              I did the JMT last year and got the exact same permit, which I followed faithfully.


              Last year I averaged about 18 miles a day, so I'd prefer to get well beyond LYV on the first day. It's not that I'm super fit or super fast, but I do prefer solitude and I would much rather spend 7 or 8 hours on the trail than 7 or 8 hours waiting around at LYV for the day to pass, especially the first day on the trail when I'll be very excited to move!


              If I get stopped by a ranger beyond LYV on my first day (should I choose to rebel) will I get kicked off the trail? Am I hurting the trail? Am I being selfish and hurting other hikers? Am I being overly fearful and unrealistic about uncertain consequences? Is my selfish desire to go out there to the wild places clouding my need to be respectful and obedient to the various aspects of the permit system?


              I am simply looking for more information on this topic and honestly don't mean to imply that I have any plans to disobey the rules. I am blessed to be given the opportunity to hike this amazing trail once again and certainly don't want to do a single thing to jeopardize my upcoming adventure. Thank-you for reading my post and especially for any input.


            • Jiminredbch
              Why not do a day hike from HI to the intersection with your trail, and back down. Then go to GP and do your short hike to LYV. That would give you a complete
              Message 8 of 20 , Aug 19, 2014
                Why not do a day hike from HI to the intersection with your trail, and back down. Then go to GP and do your short hike to LYV.  That would give you a complete through hike legally and more miles on your first day. Then if you like you can do the HD trip also. 

                Sent from my iPhone

                On Aug 19, 2014, at 2:15 PM, "chris@... [johnmuirtrail]" <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                 

                Before I even ask this question, let me first say that I am a tried-and-true rule follower. Whatever the rule or regulation, I'm on board. I'm a respectful, law abiding non-rebel father of four.

                But... when it comes to the JMT and the permit I have been given (vs. the one I prefer) I find myself seriously asking, what would happen if...?


                So... not meaning to suggest I will break any rules (because it's against my nature), I was just wondering what others in this forum think of this, um, temptation of mine? Please be kind!


                I have a permit for early September for Glacier Point to LYV. My understanding is I am required to camp at LYV on the first night.


                I did the JMT last year and got the exact same permit, which I followed faithfully.


                Last year I averaged about 18 miles a day, so I'd prefer to get well beyond LYV on the first day. It's not that I'm super fit or super fast, but I do prefer solitude and I would much rather spend 7 or 8 hours on the trail than 7 or 8 hours waiting around at LYV for the day to pass, especially the first day on the trail when I'll be very excited to move!


                If I get stopped by a ranger beyond LYV on my first day (should I choose to rebel) will I get kicked off the trail? Am I hurting the trail? Am I being selfish and hurting other hikers? Am I being overly fearful and unrealistic about uncertain consequences? Is my selfish desire to go out there to the wild places clouding my need to be respectful and obedient to the various aspects of the permit system?


                I am simply looking for more information on this topic and honestly don't mean to imply that I have any plans to disobey the rules. I am blessed to be given the opportunity to hike this amazing trail once again and certainly don't want to do a single thing to jeopardize my upcoming adventure. Thank-you for reading my post and especially for any input.

              • hegghart@nvbell.net
                One time in Yosemite NP I was directed to stop and not go further that day by a ranger with a badge and a gun--and I complied.
                Message 9 of 20 , Aug 19, 2014
                  One time in Yosemite NP I was directed to stop and not go further that day by a ranger with a badge and a gun--and I complied.
                • Peter Hirst
                  Chris: From the way you are asking these questions, it sounds to me like yoiu may already know the answers. On Aug 19, 2014, at 2:15 PM, chris@lailey.ca
                  Message 10 of 20 , Aug 19, 2014

                    Chris:

                    From the way you are asking these questions, it sounds to me like yoiu may already know the answers.


                    On Aug 19, 2014, at 2:15 PM, chris@... [johnmuirtrail] wrote:


                  • Jiminredbch
                    If you do the day hike without your backpack, no one will stop you. Sent from my iPhone
                    Message 11 of 20 , Aug 19, 2014
                      If you do the day hike without your backpack, no one will stop you.

                      Sent from my iPhone
                    • skrapp138
                      I would be surprised if these thoughts haven t crossed everyone s mind who has gone through the Yosemite Wilderness Permit system :) I surely have! BUT...I m a
                      Message 12 of 20 , Aug 19, 2014
                        I would be surprised if these thoughts haven't crossed everyone's mind who has gone through the Yosemite Wilderness Permit system :) I surely have! BUT...I'm a total wuss about breaking rules (especially one the could put a hike I've been planning for 2 years in jeopardy!).
                        John Ladd's guess sounds like a good guess to me as to why they differentiate...I might actually ask the ranger at the permit desk this year about the reasoning behind the permit differentiation. 

                        My recommendation would be to be open to swapping out for an alternative walk-up permit...see what they have available - it can't hurt to ask! As you're already starting from GP vs. the traditional Happy Isles start you can't really lose. I had poor luck this year and got my 3rd choice (HI _> Illiouette) - and I need to go farther that day than that permit will allow so I'm going to be swapping it for whatever I can get my hands on that will get me farther up the trail. I talked to a ranger yesterday who assured me that on many days many of the HI/GP permits don't sell out - so there's always hope! 

                        Erica
                      • Hamish Kebb
                        We didn t see any rangers the whole JMT trip ( july-aug 8)
                        Message 13 of 20 , Aug 20, 2014
                          We didn't see any rangers  the whole JMT trip  ( july-aug 8)

                        • clailey2
                          Roleigh, Good advice. Believe it or not I didn t swim once last year, and I should have, especially given some very hot afternoons mid-August. I do love some
                          Message 14 of 20 , Aug 20, 2014
                            Roleigh,
                            Good advice. Believe it or not I didn't swim once last year, and I should have, especially given some very hot afternoons mid-August. I do love some cool water on the feet though. :-) Thank-you. Chris.
                          • clailey2
                            J, Interesting idea. One other thought would be to head out to LYV, set up camp, and head up 1/2 Dome. Last year I admit I passed on this opportunity. Hmm...
                            Message 15 of 20 , Aug 20, 2014
                              J,
                              Interesting idea. One other thought would be to head out to LYV, set up camp, and head up 1/2 Dome. Last year I admit I passed on this opportunity. Hmm... maybe the answer is staring me right in the face after all! Chris.
                            • clailey2
                              Short and to the point. Message received! Thanks. Chris.
                              Message 16 of 20 , Aug 20, 2014
                                Short and to the point. Message received! Thanks. Chris.
                              • clailey2
                                Peter, wise reply. Yes, I think is the answer is don t break the rules . There are options. Whether I create them or they open up for me via a ranger, there
                                Message 17 of 20 , Aug 20, 2014
                                  Peter, wise reply. Yes, I think is the answer is 'don't break the rules'. There are options. Whether I create them or they open up for me via a ranger, there are options that comply with the rules. Thanks! Chris.
                                • clailey2
                                  Hamish, yeah, last year I only saw one ranger. And here s the funny thing. My permit for LYV was issued one day before I was originally supposed to leave (due
                                  Message 18 of 20 , Aug 20, 2014
                                    Hamish, yeah, last year I only saw one ranger. And here's the funny thing. My permit for LYV was issued one day before I was originally supposed to leave (due to an opening) but the permit in my hand actually had the later date on it by mistake. The ranger saw the error in LYV on my first night and let it pass. I was fortunate, I think. Chris.
                                  • clailey2
                                    Barbara, Exactly. I have a day buffer before my permit day, so I ll give it a try. I don t plan on lining up in the wee hours of the morning, however. Sleep is
                                    Message 19 of 20 , Aug 20, 2014
                                      Barbara,
                                      Exactly. I have a day buffer before my permit day, so I'll give it a try. I don't plan on lining up in the wee hours of the morning, however. Sleep is too valuable, especially the day before the big hike starts. If I don't get the Merced pass-through, then I hope to do some light exploring in the area, instead. Thanks. Chris.
                                    • dj_ayers
                                      You could start in the Valley and climb the 4-mile trail to Glacier Point. If you ve not done it before, it is an incredibly scenic climb. That would add
                                      Message 20 of 20 , Aug 20, 2014
                                        You could start in the Valley and climb the 4-mile trail to Glacier Point.  If you've not done it before, it is an incredibly scenic climb.  That would add ~4.8 mi and ~3200 feet of climbing to your 1st day.  Plus it might save a bus trip or drive to GP.
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