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Alternate trail to VVR question

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  • jimsantiagohill
    I have decided to do a resupply at MTR but would still also like to visit VVR if I have time. Does anyone know how many extra miles would be added by taking
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 18, 2014
      I have decided to do a resupply at MTR but would still also like to visit VVR if I have time. Does anyone know how many extra miles would be added by taking Goodale Pass to VVR and then getting a lift over to the Bear Creek Trail head to rejoin the JMT?


    • robert shattuck
      Does anyone know how many extra miles . . . I ve done Silver Pass down to the dock many a time, and only the last two years have I finally gone over Goodale
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 18, 2014
        "Does anyone know how many extra miles . . . " 

        I've done Silver Pass down to the dock many a time, and only the last two years have I finally gone over Goodale and after the initial climb and descent, it levels out for several miles, becoming a nice , straight shot in . . .  quite pleasant, whereas going over and down Silver is a long hot, crushing downhill, with plenty of switch-backs. 

        No maps at the moment, but I think there's about a three mile difference, Silver being the longer of the two. 


        BOB SHATTUCK
        http://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480




      • Peter Hirst
        I have read that the Goodale route is shorter,too. But I can t at the moment cite an original source Peter Hirst Farm Manager and Biochar Coordinator Swallow
        Message 3 of 17 , Jul 18, 2014
          I have read that the Goodale route is shorter,too.  But I can't at the moment cite an original source



          Peter Hirst
          Farm Manager and Biochar Coordinator

          Swallow Valley Farm
          PO Box 390
          1100 Valley Ford Freestone Road
          Valley Ford CA 94972
          peter@...
          www.swallowvalleyfarm.com

          +1 650 804 0498

          On Jul 18, 2014, at 3:31 PM, robert shattuck bobolonius@... [johnmuirtrail] wrote:

           

          "Does anyone know how many extra miles . . . " 

          I've done Silver Pass down to the dock many a time, and only the last two years have I finally gone over Goodale and after the initial climb and descent, it levels out for several miles, becoming a nice , straight shot in . . .  quite pleasant, whereas going over and down Silver is a long hot, crushing downhill, with plenty of switch-backs. 

          No maps at the moment, but I think there's about a three mile difference, Silver being the longer of the two. 


        • robert shattuck
          and then getting a lift over to the Bear Creek Trail head to rejoin the JMT? (forgot to post this part of your equation) . . . So Goodale to VVR is
          Message 4 of 17 , Jul 18, 2014
            " and then getting a lift over to the Bear Creek Trail head to rejoin the JMT? " 


            (forgot to post this part of your equation)  . . . So Goodale to VVR is shorter than going over Silver by a few mile––shorter and much more agreeable on the body. 

            ( BUT if the lake were in, Silver Pass would be the shorter way to go,  and, if only for the chance to lounge a while at the dock and then take the lovely ride across the lake) 

            At this point in time, with essentially no lake to be had and a long hike back in just to get to the Quail Meadow Junction to go UP over bear Ridge––taking the shuttle ride out of VVR to Bear Creek Cutoff Trailhead is the way to go. 

            The Bear Creek Cutoff Trailhead is 7.6 miles ( per mr. harrison) of gradual ascent and plentiful water for about 70 percent of the trail . . . from the trailhead you go up for about 45 minutes more or less, to the ridge then drop down in half that time to Bear Creek, which you follow alongside for several miles before it veers off and leaves you to meander over nothing too difficult before arriving at the JMT junction. 

            I've done the BCCT three or four times now, usually arriving at the trailhead around 10 a.m. and I end up hiking in the dark the last few miles to get up to Marie Lakes around 9 p.m. I take a lot of breaks, so your results may vary. 


            If you look at your map, the Bear Ridge Trail is only 5.7 miles before it hits the JMT––slightly shorter, but a much uglier trail, beat up and without more than one water source which may not even be in this year. 


            BOB SHATTUCK

            http://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480




          • Peter Hirst
            The bear ridge trail also climbs way higher than bear creek, just like the switchers On Jul 18, 2014, at 5:16 PM, robert shattuck bobolonius@hotmail.com
            Message 5 of 17 , Jul 18, 2014
              The bear ridge trail also climbs way higher than bear creek, just like the switchers



              On Jul 18, 2014, at 5:16 PM, robert shattuck bobolonius@... [johnmuirtrail] wrote:

               

              " and then getting a lift over to the Bear Creek Trail head to rejoin the JMT? " 


              (forgot to post this part of your equation)  . . . So Goodale to VVR is shorter than going over Silver by a few mile––shorter and much more agreeable on the body. 

              ( BUT if the lake were in, Silver Pass would be the shorter way to go,  and, if only for the chance to lounge a while at the dock and then take the lovely ride across the lake) 

              At this point in time, with essentially no lake to be had and a long hike back in just to get to the Quail Meadow Junction to go UP over bear Ridge––taking the shuttle ride out of VVR to Bear Creek Cutoff Trailhead is the way to go. 

              The Bear Creek Cutoff Trailhead is 7.6 miles ( per mr. harrison) of gradual ascent and plentiful water for about 70 percent of the trail . . . from the trailhead you go up for about 45 minutes more or less, to the ridge then drop down in half that time to Bear Creek, which you follow alongside for several miles before it veers off and leaves you to meander over nothing too difficult before arriving at the JMT junction. 

              I've done the BCCT three or four times now, usually arriving at the trailhead around 10 a.m. and I end up hiking in the dark the last few miles to get up to Marie Lakes around 9 p.m. I take a lot of breaks, so your results may vary. 


              If you look at your map, the Bear Ridge Trail is only 5.7 miles before it hits the JMT––slightly shorter, but a much uglier trail, beat up and without more than one water source which may not even be in this year. 



            • rnperky@sbcglobal.net
              There is more to the Goodale Pass Detour than just the section near Squaw Lake to VVR in calculating the ENTIRE detour. Robert S. already mentions it, but if
              Message 6 of 17 , Jul 18, 2014
                There is more to the Goodale Pass Detour than just the section near Squaw Lake to VVR in calculating the ENTIRE detour. Robert S. already mentions it, but if you do take the pleasant Bear Creek detour, you either have to hike the dam, or pay for the shuttle to the Bear Creek TH.  Without the shuttle ride, the Goodale Pass back to the JMT via Bear Creek is a 5.1 miles longer than if you stayed on the JMT. I will concurr with Robert S. also that the Bear Ridge Trail is HIGHLY discouraged..it's not a fun section to hike. So yes, taking the Goodale Pass route  is shorter to VVR, but the OVERALL detour is not shorter when compared to staying on the JMT. 
              • byronnevins
                Note that you definitely do want to take the Bear Ridge Trail to get to VVR if you are going Northbound.
                Message 7 of 17 , Jul 19, 2014
                  Note that you definitely do want to take the Bear Ridge Trail to get to VVR if you are going Northbound.

                • John Ladd
                  byron.nevins says Note that you definitely do want to take the Bear Ridge Trail to get to VVR if you are going Northbound. Byron - Could you explain why? I d
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jul 19, 2014
                    byron.nevins says"Note that you definitely do want to take the Bear Ridge Trail to get to VVR if you are going Northbound."

                    Byron - Could you explain why? I'd do Bear Creek because it is so pretty. And it seems like to take Bear Ridge you have to climb first and then drop down. I agree it is probably more efficient, though, to go Bear Ridge as I suspect (though haven't checked) that the Bear Ridge mileage and maybe even total vertical change is a bit less (given the need to go up and over the Bear Creek Cut-off Trail after getting down the course of the creek as far as the diversion structure).

                    For anyone needing to visualize these discussions there is a crude map here:


                    Switch the map to satellite or terrain view to get a better picture.

                    John Curran Ladd
                    1616 Castro Street
                    San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                    415-648-9279
                  • Peter Hirst
                    WHat do you save by taking Bear Ridge vs Bear Creek NoBo. Is it worth the additional climb to the BR jct? On Jul 19, 2014, at 10:44 AM, byron.nevins@gmail.com
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jul 19, 2014
                      WHat do you save by taking Bear Ridge vs Bear Creek NoBo.  Is it worth the additional climb to the BR jct?



                      On Jul 19, 2014, at 10:44 AM, byron.nevins@... [johnmuirtrail] wrote:

                       

                      Note that you definitely do want to take the Bear Ridge Trail to get to VVR if you are going Northbound.




                    • rnperky@sbcglobal.net
                      I m not sure I understand why anyone would want to take the Bear Ridge Trail in either direction to get to VVR, but I ve never done it Northbound, so maybe the
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jul 19, 2014
                        I'm not sure I understand why anyone would want to take the Bear Ridge Trail in either direction to get to VVR, but I've never done it Northbound, so maybe the mileage savings is the reason for some?? If I'm taking the time to go a little out of my way to get to VVR, I will always take either the normal JMT, ( when the ferry is running normal ), or Bear Creek as it is much more scenic and offers swimming holes all along it...again, just my preference. I don't normally go to VVR, so it's a 'moot' point mostly for me, but anyone inquiring should know the pros and cons of each route. 
                      • Byron Nevins
                        I you take Bear Creek you ll be miles away from VVR at the end. It s 5 miles from the Bear Diversion Dam to VVR. And 4 of those miles are on the highway.
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jul 19, 2014
                          I you take Bear Creek you'll be miles away from VVR at the end.  It's 5 miles from the Bear Diversion Dam to VVR.  And 4 of those miles are on the highway.   Though - if you could arrange a pickup from them it would be OK.  Or you might be able to hitchhike a ride on the highway.  

                          The trail is not bad, btw.  It would not be fun uphill.  But it's not a big deal downhill -- I did it in 2012.  So if you aren't planning on getting in a car -- Bear Ridge looks better.





                        • John Ladd
                          Byron Nevins says It s 5 miles from the Bear Diversion Dam to VVR. And 4 of those miles are on the highway. Byron -- Sounds like you missed the Bear Creek
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jul 19, 2014
                            Byron Nevins says "It's 5 miles from the Bear Diversion Dam to VVR.  And 4 of those miles are on the highway."

                            Byron -- Sounds like you missed the Bear Creek Cut-off Trail (signed, as I recall, just East of the diversion dam). I get 1.8 miles from the end of the VVR-end trailhead of the Cut-off trail to VVR and almost all of that you would have to walk from the Bear Ridge Trailhead also. Sounds like you walked down the jeep road and then NW on Kaiser Pass Road, which probably would be 5 miles, though I wouldn't call any of it a highway. 

                            Cut-off Trail is shown in light green on the Google map at this link. Hiking the roads is quite a bit more out of your way (grey and blue lines). Sorry the map is so crude.


                            If so, I see why you preferred the Ridge trial.

                            John Curran Ladd
                            1616 Castro Street
                            San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                            415-648-9279
                          • robert shattuck
                            http://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480 And 4 of those miles are on the highway Calling it a highway is a bit of a stretch . . .
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jul 20, 2014




                              http://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480
                              "And 4 of those miles are on the highway " 

                              Calling it a "highway" is a bit of a stretch . . . it's more of a one lane road and if you were mis-guided enough to walk all the way to the Bear Diversion Dam, it's several miles of sketchy 4-wheel drive dirt road. 

                              IF you're going south out of the VVR the best trail is right there on the road at the Bear Creek Cutoff Trailhead. Absolutely no reason to go back into the dam and I'm betting the shuttle guys at VVR wouldn't bother dealing with in either direction unless of course there was some $eriou$ change involved. 

                              Thumbing on the road into VVR is either easy or sucks--most people go back in there with their cars packed for a few days stay . . . when I worked there (VVR) I would sometimes thumb out and it often took me a few hours of walking before I could ever get a ride and sometimes it would be most of a day. 

                              BOB SHATTUCK



                              To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                              From: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2014 15:30:09 -0700
                              Subject: [John Muir Trail] Re: Alternate trail to VVR question

                               

                              I you take Bear Creek you'll be miles away from VVR at the end.  It's 5 miles from the Bear Diversion Dam to VVR.  And 4 of those miles are on the highway.   Though - if you could arrange a pickup from them it would be OK.  Or you might be able to hitchhike a ride on the highway.  

                              The trail is not bad, btw.  It would not be fun uphill.  But it's not a big deal downhill -- I did it in 2012.  So if you aren't planning on getting in a car -- Bear Ridge looks better.






                            • robert shattuck
                              I m not sure I understand why anyone would want to take the Bear Ridge Trail If you re traveling north and all you really want to do is get to the VVR and
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jul 20, 2014
                                " I'm not sure I understand why anyone would want to take the Bear Ridge Trail "

                                If you're traveling north and all you really want to do is get to the VVR and forget about the lovely water features you have following Bear Creek NOT TO MENTION THE BIG CLIMB UP to the ridge before descending down to hit the road, then BEAR RIDGE trail is not bad---it's all downhill. there's not a lot of water, but it does drop you right there at the southern end of the dam and the intersection for the road is less than a quarter mile, or you could just walk the dam until it hits the road or keep walking and you'll end up contouring along the dry lake all the way to the VVR. 

                                Bob Shattuck

                                http://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480





                              • Byron Nevins
                                Thanks John, I had no idea about that trail. It isn t on the USGS Topo map. With all this modern technology I wonder why those maps aren t updated? Half of
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jul 20, 2014
                                  Thanks John,

                                  I had no idea about that trail. It isn't on the USGS Topo map. With all
                                  this modern technology I wonder why those maps aren't updated? Half of
                                  them are metric from our ill-fated switch over eons ago.
                                • John Ladd
                                  Since 1992, the USGS no longer includes trails on updated maps. Why are there no trails, Public Land Survey System (PLSS), powerlines, etc. on US Topos? The
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jul 20, 2014
                                    Since 1992, the USGS no longer includes trails on updated maps. 

                                    Why are there no trails, Public Land Survey System (PLSS), powerlines, etc. on US Topos?

                                    The original USGS 7.5-minute topographic map series (1945-1992) included  feature classes that are not yet shown on US Topos. Examples include recreational trails, pipelines, power lines, survey markers, many types of boundaries, and many types of buildings. The USGS no longer does field verification or other primary data collection for these feature classes, and there are no national data sources suitable for general-purpose, 1:24,000-scale maps. For many of these feature classes, USGS is working with other agencies to develop data. Over time, as these data become available and are included in The National Map, that content will be added to the US Topos. For an overview of the philosophy of US Topo content, see the articles at this website.


                                    http://www.usgs.gov/faq/categories/9797/3579


                                    John Curran Ladd
                                    1616 Castro Street
                                    San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                                    415-648-9279


                                    On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 12:57 AM, Byron Nevins byron.nevins@... [johnmuirtrail] <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                     

                                    Thanks John,

                                    I had no idea about that trail. It isn't on the USGS Topo map. With all
                                    this modern technology I wonder why those maps aren't updated? Half of
                                    them are metric from our ill-fated switch over eons ago.


                                  • John Ladd
                                    Better news: Additional content planned for 2013 includes a shaded relief layer, National Parks and other selected federal land boundaries, and recreational
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jul 20, 2014
                                      Better news:

                                      "Additional content planned for 2013 includes a shaded relief layer, National Parks and other selected federal land boundaries, and recreational trails in National Forests. In all cases, new content depends on receiving data from authoritative sources. For non-natural map features, the USGS no longer gathers data by direct field observation or from primary sources."


                                      John Curran Ladd
                                      1616 Castro Street
                                      San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                                      415-648-9279


                                      On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 6:48 AM, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:
                                      Since 1992, the USGS no longer includes trails on updated maps. 

                                      Why are there no trails, Public Land Survey System (PLSS), powerlines, etc. on US Topos?

                                      The original USGS 7.5-minute topographic map series (1945-1992) included  feature classes that are not yet shown on US Topos. Examples include recreational trails, pipelines, power lines, survey markers, many types of boundaries, and many types of buildings. The USGS no longer does field verification or other primary data collection for these feature classes, and there are no national data sources suitable for general-purpose, 1:24,000-scale maps. For many of these feature classes, USGS is working with other agencies to develop data. Over time, as these data become available and are included in The National Map, that content will be added to the US Topos. For an overview of the philosophy of US Topo content, see the articles at this website.


                                      http://www.usgs.gov/faq/categories/9797/3579


                                      John Curran Ladd
                                      1616 Castro Street
                                      San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                                      415-648-9279


                                      On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 12:57 AM, Byron Nevins byron.nevins@... [johnmuirtrail] <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                       

                                      Thanks John,

                                      I had no idea about that trail. It isn't on the USGS Topo map. With all
                                      this modern technology I wonder why those maps aren't updated? Half of
                                      them are metric from our ill-fated switch over eons ago.



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