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MTR food not fitting into canister

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  • markedwardrode
    This is a question geared to those that have hiked the whole thing: I ve talked to a few people recently who have thru-hiked the JMT and said that more or
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 6 7:56 PM

      This is a question geared to those that have hiked the whole thing:  I've talked to a few people recently who have thru-hiked the JMT and said that more or less no one is really able to put all of their food into their canisters at MTR.  


      Is this true?  If so, what do people do?  Stealth bear bag the extra food?  The guy I talked to said that he just slept with his extra food, which was in one of those Loksak bags.... pretty bad idea if you ask me...


      Anyways, just wondering how people deal with this possibility...


      I'm using the Expedition Bearikade, and will be hiking that last stretch in 7 days.

    • rnperky@sbcglobal.net
      You should be able to manage 7 days of food in the Expedition sized Bearikade. Leave the food out that you are using for the rest of the resupply day, and
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 6 8:36 PM
        You should be able to manage 7 days of food in the Expedition sized Bearikade. Leave the food out that you are using for the rest of the resupply day, and you'll be down to 6+ days worth of food to fit in there. I sometimes have to leave my trash bag out and temporarily put it under a big rock for the first night past MTR, but I usually get my 5+ days worth of food in my Bearikade Weekender, which is 4" shorter.  I have never seen a bear in that area, but I have seen bear scat near the bridge several years ago. 
      • bjroach
        7 days MTR to Whitney Portal would be 6 days of food in your Expedition on night 1. Check to see if there any opportunities for repackaging your food. Also
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 6 8:44 PM
          7 days MTR to Whitney Portal would be 6 days of food in your Expedition on night 1. 
          Check to see if there any opportunities for repackaging your food.
          Also check to see if there are any particularly opportunities to improve the caloric density of your food choices.
          Eat your most space inefficient meal the first night.  
          Then if you still don't have room you can hang the excess in a tree. 

          Also, bear in mind by the time you arrive at MTR you might find that you packed too much food in your MTR resupply.  Many people can't eat all that they hoped to eat.  

          7 days and an Expedition - I think you'll be fine.  

        • Peter Hirst
          Absolutely not true. I had no problem getting 12 days food in a BearKeg. Expedition is bigger than that. On Jul 6, 2014, at 7:56 PM, markedwardrode@yahoo.com
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 6 9:30 PM
            Absolutely not true.  I had no problem getting 12 days food in a BearKeg.  Expedition is bigger than that.




            On Jul 6, 2014, at 7:56 PM, markedwardrode@... [johnmuirtrail] wrote:

             

            This is a question geared to those that have hiked the whole thing:  I've talked to a few people recently who have thru-hiked the JMT and said that more or less no one is really able to put all of their food into their canisters at MTR.  


            Is this true?  If so, what do people do?  Stealth bear bag the extra food?  The guy I talked to said that he just slept with his extra food, which was in one of those Loksak bags.... pretty bad idea if you ask me...


            Anyways, just wondering how people deal with this possibility...


            I'm using the Expedition Bearikade, and will be hiking that last stretch in 7 days.



          • berdomb
            I prefit my 8 days at 3500 cal into a weekender, that could be even stretched to 9 days at 3100 cal. My guess is that quite a few find out it doesnt fit
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 7 4:52 AM
              I prefit my  8 days at 3500 cal into a weekender, that could be even stretched to 9 days at 3100 cal.   My guess is that quite a few find out it doesnt fit when they get there. It doesnt just happen, repackaging and figuriing out how to pack it is necessary.  

              I would bet a lot of garbage and toiletries dont fit and arent put in there..  Good reason not to take any toiletries, or Mountain house bags.  
            • Arla Hile
              From MTR I have 5 full days worth of food in my Scout, and carrying what I m eating the first day as I hike(breakfast, lunch and snacks) = 5.67 days.
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 7 9:18 AM
                From MTR I have 5 full days worth of food in my Scout, and carrying what I'm eating the first day as I hike(breakfast, lunch and snacks) = 5.67 days. Everything had to be repackaged and/or consolidated and/or crushed, and there's a lot of fat in there. 

                Cheers,
                Arla


                On Monday, July 7, 2014 4:52 AM, "berdomb@... [johnmuirtrail]" <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                 
                I prefit my  8 days at 3500 cal into a weekender, that could be even stretched to 9 days at 3100 cal.   My guess is that quite a few find out it doesnt fit when they get there. It doesnt just happen, repackaging and figuriing out how to pack it is necessary.  

                I would bet a lot of garbage and toiletries dont fit and arent put in there..  Good reason not to take any toiletries, or Mountain house bags.  


              • longritchie
                It comes down to food choices. In addition to focusing on food that is nonperishable and also has a high calorie to weight ratio you also have to find food
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 8 9:48 AM
                  It comes down to food choices. In addition to focusing on food that is nonperishable and also has a high calorie to weight ratio you also have to find food that has a low bulk density and will stand up to being crushed regularly. If you're like me, the dense and crushable requirement eliminates many foods that would otherwise be desirable on a backpacking trip. One could look at this in a positive light: since the food will taste even worse you will be less inclined to eat and thus can get away with carrying less food. As long as you don't run out of energy.

                  In my own experience, 6 nights is the maximum (at 3500 Cal/day) that I've been able to fit in the weekender. More typically I can barely fit 4 nights. I have done weeklong trips where I couldn't fit the remaining food and trash until the last night. I know fitting more is possible but for me (and others I know) more isn't palatable.

                  So what do you do if it doesn't fit?
                  Your choices are:

                  1. choose denser food
                  2. take less food and be hungry
                  3. carry a second canister
                  4. do something illegal

                  I have alway chosen option 4. Specifically, on long trips I often carried an ursack for the overflow. One has to be thoughtful in rigging an ursack securely from both bears and law enforcement. In most locations I mainly worry about the latter but in some spots bears are a real threat.

                  My advice is to try option #1 first.
                • Rick Martyn
                  Rather than using a second canister, you could buy/rent a larger canister (i.e. Bearikade Expedition or custom). Just another option On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 8 10:46 AM
                    Rather than using a second canister, you could buy/rent a larger canister (i.e. Bearikade Expedition or custom).

                    Just another option


                    On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 9:48 AM, longritchie <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                     

                    It comes down to food choices. In addition to focusing on food that is nonperishable and also has a high calorie to weight ratio you also have to find food that has a low bulk density and will stand up to being crushed regularly. If you're like me, the dense and crushable requirement eliminates many foods that would otherwise be desirable on a backpacking trip. One could look at this in a positive light: since the food will taste even worse you will be less inclined to eat and thus can get away with carrying less food. As long as you don't run out of energy.

                    In my own experience, 6 nights is the maximum (at 3500 Cal/day) that I've been able to fit in the weekender. More typically I can barely fit 4 nights. I have done weeklong trips where I couldn't fit the remaining food and trash until the last night. I know fitting more is possible but for me (and others I know) more isn't palatable.

                    So what do you do if it doesn't fit?
                    Your choices are:

                    1. choose denser food
                    2. take less food and be hungry
                    3. carry a second canister
                    4. do something illegal

                    I have alway chosen option 4. Specifically, on long trips I often carried an ursack for the overflow. One has to be thoughtful in rigging an ursack securely from both bears and law enforcement. In most locations I mainly worry about the latter but in some spots bears are a real threat.

                    My advice is to try option #1 first.


                  • eric moss
                    FWIW, my default breakfast will be Grape Nuts. Pretty dense for a carb-heavy food, and the gaps fill in nicely with Chia seeds and crushed freeze-dried
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 8 10:52 AM
                      FWIW, my default breakfast will be Grape Nuts.  Pretty dense for a carb-heavy food, and the gaps fill in nicely with Chia seeds and crushed freeze-dried berries.  They also fill in gaps between other items in each day's bag of food.


                      On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 1:46 PM, Rick Martyn rickmartyn@... [johnmuirtrail] <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                       

                      Rather than using a second canister, you could buy/rent a larger canister (i.e. Bearikade Expedition or custom).

                      Just another option


                      On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 9:48 AM, longritchie <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                       

                      It comes down to food choices. In addition to focusing on food that is nonperishable and also has a high calorie to weight ratio you also have to find food that has a low bulk density and will stand up to being crushed regularly. If you're like me, the dense and crushable requirement eliminates many foods that would otherwise be desirable on a backpacking trip. One could look at this in a positive light: since the food will taste even worse you will be less inclined to eat and thus can get away with carrying less food. As long as you don't run out of energy.

                      In my own experience, 6 nights is the maximum (at 3500 Cal/day) that I've been able to fit in the weekender. More typically I can barely fit 4 nights. I have done weeklong trips where I couldn't fit the remaining food and trash until the last night. I know fitting more is possible but for me (and others I know) more isn't palatable.

                      So what do you do if it doesn't fit?
                      Your choices are:

                      1. choose denser food
                      2. take less food and be hungry
                      3. carry a second canister
                      4. do something illegal

                      I have alway chosen option 4. Specifically, on long trips I often carried an ursack for the overflow. One has to be thoughtful in rigging an ursack securely from both bears and law enforcement. In most locations I mainly worry about the latter but in some spots bears are a real threat.

                      My advice is to try option #1 first.



                    • Dave Park
                      Looking at this from the other side.... I have the BV500 BearVault. With dense energy foods, I can get 10x 3500 calorie days or 7x 5000 calorie days in it. I
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jul 9 4:49 PM
                        Looking at this from the other side.... I have the BV500 BearVault.

                        With dense energy foods, I can get 10x 3500 calorie days or 7x 5000 calorie days in it.

                        I then eat double at the resupply, and carry the first days's food outside the pack so I do not need to even open it. That way I can have 8+ or 11+ days of food depending on my calorie needs. I personally find that in the later stages of the hike where I am fully acclimatized, I do just fine on 3500-4000 calories a day, and that if I catch and eat a fish during the day that is normally good for 500 calories :)

                        Dave


                        On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 12:52 PM, eric moss eric.p.moss@... [johnmuirtrail] <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                         

                        FWIW, my default breakfast will be Grape Nuts.  Pretty dense for a carb-heavy food, and the gaps fill in nicely with Chia seeds and crushed freeze-dried berries.  They also fill in gaps between other items in each day's bag of food.


                        On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 1:46 PM, Rick Martyn rickmartyn@... [johnmuirtrail] <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                         

                        Rather than using a second canister, you could buy/rent a larger canister (i.e. Bearikade Expedition or custom).

                        Just another option


                        On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 9:48 AM, longritchie <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                         

                        It comes down to food choices. In addition to focusing on food that is nonperishable and also has a high calorie to weight ratio you also have to find food that has a low bulk density and will stand up to being crushed regularly. If you're like me, the dense and crushable requirement eliminates many foods that would otherwise be desirable on a backpacking trip. One could look at this in a positive light: since the food will taste even worse you will be less inclined to eat and thus can get away with carrying less food. As long as you don't run out of energy.

                        In my own experience, 6 nights is the maximum (at 3500 Cal/day) that I've been able to fit in the weekender. More typically I can barely fit 4 nights. I have done weeklong trips where I couldn't fit the remaining food and trash until the last night. I know fitting more is possible but for me (and others I know) more isn't palatable.

                        So what do you do if it doesn't fit?
                        Your choices are:

                        1. choose denser food
                        2. take less food and be hungry
                        3. carry a second canister
                        4. do something illegal

                        I have alway chosen option 4. Specifically, on long trips I often carried an ursack for the overflow. One has to be thoughtful in rigging an ursack securely from both bears and law enforcement. In most locations I mainly worry about the latter but in some spots bears are a real threat.

                        My advice is to try option #1 first.




                      • longritchie
                        Dave, I m curious what your food choices are. What do you eat? I could use some new ideas.
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jul 9 5:08 PM
                          Dave, I'm curious what your food choices are. What do you eat?
                          I could use some new ideas.
                        • Dave Park
                          It s pretty much the more energy dense foods people list here. There s always a jar of peanut butter (with peanut oil, not the cheaper
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jul 9 5:33 PM
                            It's pretty much the more energy dense foods people list here. There's always a jar of peanut butter (with peanut oil, not the cheaper oil-replaced-by-veggie-oil stuff) and a bottle of olive oil. I buy a bulk box of payday bars, and parboiled rice. I avoid pasta except on the first day after a resupply (I find the spaces in the pasta make it not very dense)... Chocolate. Fajitas. I lay these out to dry completely, then sprinkle them with water and warm them through before eating - they last years that way. I have friends from England send me some hearty cup-a-soups too - light, warming and filling - great to go to bed on a cold night with. I take low sodium stock cubes too - great as a warm up in the morning if I am not in the mood for coffee, and they help restore lost salts from hot days' sweat too.

                            Dave


                            On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 7:08 PM, longritchie <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                             

                            Dave, I'm curious what your food choices are. What do you eat?
                            I could use some new ideas.


                          • Dave Park
                            When I say fajitas I mean tortillas .... Hehe. Dave
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jul 9 5:36 PM
                              When I say "fajitas" I mean "tortillas"....

                              Hehe.

                              Dave


                              On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 7:33 PM, Dave Park <plasticuser@...> wrote:
                              It's pretty much the more energy dense foods people list here. There's always a jar of peanut butter (with peanut oil, not the cheaper oil-replaced-by-veggie-oil stuff) and a bottle of olive oil. I buy a bulk box of payday bars, and parboiled rice. I avoid pasta except on the first day after a resupply (I find the spaces in the pasta make it not very dense)... Chocolate. Fajitas. I lay these out to dry completely, then sprinkle them with water and warm them through before eating - they last years that way. I have friends from England send me some hearty cup-a-soups too - light, warming and filling - great to go to bed on a cold night with. I take low sodium stock cubes too - great as a warm up in the morning if I am not in the mood for coffee, and they help restore lost salts from hot days' sweat too.

                              Dave


                              On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 7:08 PM, longritchie <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                               

                              Dave, I'm curious what your food choices are. What do you eat?
                              I could use some new ideas.



                            • longritchie
                              ... Now that s interesting. I love tortillas and other bread but the moisture content means they are relatively heavy. A typical tortilla is less than 3 Cal/g.
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jul 9 7:05 PM
                                > (Tortillas). I lay these out to dry completely, then sprinkle them with
                                > water and warm them through before eating - they last years that way.

                                Now that's interesting. I love tortillas and other bread but the moisture content means they are relatively heavy. A typical tortilla is less than 3 Cal/g. Oily crackers are better but not as nice to eat and they're bulky.

                                So let me get this straight. You lay them out in the open, indoors, for a few days until they're dry and brittle? What keeps them from cracking into pieces?
                              • groundhogsteve
                                I put 1/8th to 1/4 cup of dehydrated butter powder into my rice or pasta meals. I figure the powder mostly fits in between the rice kernels or pasta, and
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jul 9 8:22 PM
                                  I put 1/8th to 1/4 cup of dehydrated butter powder into my rice or pasta meals.  I figure the powder mostly fits in between the rice kernels or pasta, and doesn't add that much volume.
                                • Dave Park
                                  I wait for a good, low humidity day and put them on a baking tray outside, in full sun. They dry completely flat in just 7-10 minutes. Sometimes, they try to
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jul 9 8:54 PM
                                    I wait for a good, low humidity day and put them on a baking tray outside, in full sun. They dry completely flat in just 7-10 minutes. Sometimes, they try to curl up - then I just get two trays. I dry them part way, then just as they start to curl up I lay another already hot tray on top. They're always bone try single tray method in 8-10 minutes and two tray method in 12-15 minutes. I find they lose at least 50-60% of their weight. 

                                    When I re-humidify them, I just dip my hand in water then sprinkle both sides and wait, OR, if I have water I plan to boil, I do that then rest them on top of the water as it almost boils, moving them around. In about 30-45 seconds, they're reconstituted to fresh, moist (but not wet) tortillas :)

                                    When I was developing this method, I would often over-wet the tortillas. If that happened, I'd just set my gas on low then hold the tortilla over the flame about 6" above until it was too hot to hold. 

                                    Tasty. 

                                    My average weight saving was normally around 4-5 oz. I normally couldn't tell the difference between fresh and re-moistened tortillas so the cost of that weight was very low. 

                                    My experience. Your mileage may vary, etc. I recommend you experiment in your backyard before trying this on the trail. :)

                                    Dave


                                    On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 9:05 PM, longritchie <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                     

                                    > (Tortillas). I lay these out to dry completely, then sprinkle them with


                                    > water and warm them through before eating - they last years that way.

                                    Now that's interesting. I love tortillas and other bread but the moisture content means they are relatively heavy. A typical tortilla is less than 3 Cal/g. Oily crackers are better but not as nice to eat and they're bulky.

                                    So let me get this straight. You lay them out in the open, indoors, for a few days until they're dry and brittle? What keeps them from cracking into pieces?


                                  • longritchie
                                    What kind of tortillas do you buy (flour? corn?) and what brand? I couldn t find any online that had 60% moisture/fiber content, although many were about 50%.
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jul 10 7:04 AM
                                      What kind of tortillas do you buy (flour? corn?) and what brand?

                                      I couldn't find any online that had 60% moisture/fiber content, although many were about 50%.

                                      The flour tortillas I have (Mission) are only 37% moisture/fiber content. There would be no way to dry those ones down 50-60%.

                                      I dried one at 170F last night. It lost 27% of its weight (from 2.9 Cal/g to 4.0 Cal/g). But it was very, very brittle. There was no way I was going to transport that giant potato chip without bubble wrap to protect it.

                                      So which tortillas do you use?



                                      ---In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <plasticuser@...> wrote :

                                      I wait for a good, low humidity day and put them on a baking tray outside, in full sun. They dry completely flat in just 7-10 minutes. Sometimes, they try to curl up - then I just get two trays. I dry them part way, then just as they start to curl up I lay another already hot tray on top. They're always bone try single tray method in 8-10 minutes and two tray method in 12-15 minutes. I find they lose at least 50-60% of their weight. 

                                      When I re-humidify them, I just dip my hand in water then sprinkle both sides and wait, OR, if I have water I plan to boil, I do that then rest them on top of the water as it almost boils, moving them around. In about 30-45 seconds, they're reconstituted to fresh, moist (but not wet) tortillas :)

                                      When I was developing this method, I would often over-wet the tortillas. If that happened, I'd just set my gas on low then hold the tortilla over the flame about 6" above until it was too hot to hold. 

                                      Tasty. 

                                      My average weight saving was normally around 4-5 oz. I normally couldn't tell the difference between fresh and re-moistened tortillas so the cost of that weight was very low. 

                                      My experience. Your mileage may vary, etc. I recommend you experiment in your backyard before trying this on the trail. :)

                                      Dave


                                      On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 9:05 PM, longritchie <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                       

                                      > (Tortillas). I lay these out to dry completely, then sprinkle them with


                                      > water and warm them through before eating - they last years that way.

                                      Now that's interesting. I love tortillas and other bread but the moisture content means they are relatively heavy. A typical tortilla is less than 3 Cal/g. Oily crackers are better but not as nice to eat and they're bulky.

                                      So let me get this straight. You lay them out in the open, indoors, for a few days until they're dry and brittle? What keeps them from cracking into pieces?


                                    • Dave Park
                                      I used freshly made flour tortillas I bought at the local HEB. They re normally still warm. I find them a little thicker than the pre-made ones and they
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Jul 10 10:34 AM
                                        I used freshly made flour tortillas I bought at the local HEB. They're normally still warm. I find them a little thicker than the pre-made ones and they definitely have a higher moisture content at first. Thinking about it, though, I may have over-estimated the weight loss because I normally dry out 12 or 15, and 2-3 break. So, my before and after weights aren't a like for like comparison. Sorry :)

                                        I've only done this a few times, and out in the sticks I would occasionally lose 1 or 2 tortillas to breakage, but they still moisten up fine and taste the same.

                                        Tortillas last a really long time in their moist state as long as they don't come into contact with fungus - normally from your fingers.

                                        I think my preference now is to have my tortillas fresh because they act as padding for everything else, and because I usually want to eat NOW, not in ten minutes ;)

                                        Dave


                                        On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 9:04 AM, longritchie <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                         

                                        What kind of tortillas do you buy (flour? corn?) and what brand?

                                        I couldn't find any online that had 60% moisture/fiber content, although many were about 50%.

                                        The flour tortillas I have (Mission) are only 37% moisture/fiber content. There would be no way to dry those ones down 50-60%.

                                        I dried one at 170F last night. It lost 27% of its weight (from 2.9 Cal/g to 4.0 Cal/g). But it was very, very brittle. There was no way I was going to transport that giant potato chip without bubble wrap to protect it.

                                        So which tortillas do you use?



                                        ---In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <plasticuser@...> wrote :


                                        I wait for a good, low humidity day and put them on a baking tray outside, in full sun. They dry completely flat in just 7-10 minutes. Sometimes, they try to curl up - then I just get two trays. I dry them part way, then just as they start to curl up I lay another already hot tray on top. They're always bone try single tray method in 8-10 minutes and two tray method in 12-15 minutes. I find they lose at least 50-60% of their weight. 

                                        When I re-humidify them, I just dip my hand in water then sprinkle both sides and wait, OR, if I have water I plan to boil, I do that then rest them on top of the water as it almost boils, moving them around. In about 30-45 seconds, they're reconstituted to fresh, moist (but not wet) tortillas :)

                                        When I was developing this method, I would often over-wet the tortillas. If that happened, I'd just set my gas on low then hold the tortilla over the flame about 6" above until it was too hot to hold. 

                                        Tasty. 

                                        My average weight saving was normally around 4-5 oz. I normally couldn't tell the difference between fresh and re-moistened tortillas so the cost of that weight was very low. 

                                        My experience. Your mileage may vary, etc. I recommend you experiment in your backyard before trying this on the trail. :)

                                        Dave


                                        On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 9:05 PM, longritchie <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                         

                                        > (Tortillas). I lay these out to dry completely, then sprinkle them with


                                        > water and warm them through before eating - they last years that way.

                                        Now that's interesting. I love tortillas and other bread but the moisture content means they are relatively heavy. A typical tortilla is less than 3 Cal/g. Oily crackers are better but not as nice to eat and they're bulky.

                                        So let me get this straight. You lay them out in the open, indoors, for a few days until they're dry and brittle? What keeps them from cracking into pieces?



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