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Have you or anyone you know ever gotten altitude sickness doing a whole SOBO JMT hiking <15 miles a day?

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  • Roleigh Martin
    A friend of mine wants to know, and so do I. Have you or anyone you know ever gotten altitude sickness doing a whole SOBO JMT hiking
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 21, 2014
      A friend of mine wants to know, and so do I.  Have you or anyone you know ever gotten altitude sickness doing a whole SOBO JMT hiking <15 miles a day?  If so, please provide how bad your altitude sickness (or the person you directly know of) got, if they had to vacate the trail, and where at on the trail did you or he/she get it, and did they finish the JMT, and what was the average mileage pace per day.

      Only those starting at Happy Isles going southbound (SOBO) on the JMT am I interested in responses.

      Personally, I do not know anyone who has gotten altitude sickness doing the JMT this way.  I do know that some of the JMT hikers got a little tired or dizzy where they took an Aleve or Ibuprofen before doing either Donahue or Forester but that was it, and it didn't stop them from doing the JMT.

      Thanks!
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    • berdomb
      I read of a hiker last year that thought he did. He ended up sorta freaking out about it with anxiety and bailed out. Chances are, he just got carried awayt
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 21, 2014
        I read of a hiker last year that thought he did. He ended up sorta freaking out about it with anxiety  and bailed out.  Chances are, he just got carried awayt worrying about it.  I think I read he will be back this yr as well.
      • Roleigh Martin
        Hearsay is less important to me than first-hand or second-hand stories where detailed answers can be given. What if the person you mentioned started at Red s
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 21, 2014
          Hearsay is less important to me than first-hand or second-hand stories where detailed answers can be given. What if the person you mentioned started at Red's Meadow and was going 20 miles a day.  Or Tuolumne Meadows?  Or even Happy Isles and going 20 miles a day.  Or if he got to the valley (Yosemite Valley) and started his hike the same day he arrived and he arrived from sea level.  I am looking for details so that my friend can understand why someone got it and the lessons learned.

          Thanks!

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          On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 9:10 PM, berdomb@... [johnmuirtrail] <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
           

          I read of a hiker last year that thought he did. He ended up sorta freaking out about it with anxiety  and bailed out.  Chances are, he just got carried awayt worrying about it.  I think I read he will be back this yr as well.


        • Frank Dumville
          I expect many people get AMS symptoms. Did you mean to ask for experiences with HAPE or HACE? I once started at HI and experienced some mild AMS (headache and
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 21, 2014
            I expect many people get AMS symptoms. Did you mean to ask for experiences with HAPE or HACE?

            I once started at HI and experienced some mild AMS (headache and nausea) when camping at Cathedral Lakes. I was acclimated by the time I hit Donahue and continued my hike but didn't finish for an unrelated reason. I've done other hikes where I dealt with some AMS issues but completed the hike.

            Frank


            On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Roleigh Martin roleigh@... [johnmuirtrail] <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
             

            A friend of mine wants to know, and so do I.  Have you or anyone you know ever gotten altitude sickness doing a whole SOBO JMT hiking <15 miles a day?  If so, please provide how bad your altitude sickness (or the person you directly know of) got, if they had to vacate the trail, and where at on the trail did you or he/she get it, and did they finish the JMT, and what was the average mileage pace per day.

            Only those starting at Happy Isles going southbound (SOBO) on the JMT am I interested in responses.

            Personally, I do not know anyone who has gotten altitude sickness doing the JMT this way.  I do know that some of the JMT hikers got a little tired or dizzy where they took an Aleve or Ibuprofen before doing either Donahue or Forester but that was it, and it didn't stop them from doing the JMT.

            Thanks!
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          • Peter Hirst
            Just wondering: what s the difference between second hand and hearsay ? On Jun 21, 2014, at 9:14 PM, Roleigh Martin roleigh@pobox.com [johnmuirtrail]
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 21, 2014
              Just wondering:  what's the difference between "second hand" and "hearsay"?


              On Jun 21, 2014, at 9:14 PM, Roleigh Martin roleigh@... [johnmuirtrail] wrote:

               

              Hearsay is less important to me than first-hand or second-hand stories where detailed answers can be given. What if the person you mentioned started at Red's Meadow and was going 20 miles a day.  Or Tuolumne Meadows?  Or even Happy Isles and going 20 miles a day.  Or if he got to the valley (Yosemite Valley) and started his hike the same day he arrived and he arrived from sea level.  I am looking for details so that my friend can understand why someone got it and the lessons learned.

              Thanks!

              -------------------------------------------------
              Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
              _



              On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 9:10 PM, berdomb@... [johnmuirtrail] <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
               

              I read of a hiker last year that thought he did. He ended up sorta freaking out about it with anxiety  and bailed out.  Chances are, he just got carried awayt worrying about it.  I think I read he will be back this yr as well.




            • Roleigh Martin
              Second hand, is where you got to speak to someone who had the issue and you were able to ask and hear answers to your questions. Hearsay is where the person
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 21, 2014
                Second hand, is where you got to speak to someone who had the issue and you were able to ask and hear answers to your questions.  Hearsay is where the person you are talking to did not experience it, but talked to or heard of someone else.  Think of hearsay in this questionnaire as "third or third-plus hand say".


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                On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 10:11 PM, Peter Hirst peter@... [johnmuirtrail] <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                 

                Just wondering:  what's the difference between "second hand" and "hearsay"?



                On Jun 21, 2014, at 9:14 PM, Roleigh Martin roleigh@... [johnmuirtrail] wrote:

                 

                Hearsay is less important to me than first-hand or second-hand stories where detailed answers can be given. What if the person you mentioned started at Red's Meadow and was going 20 miles a day.  Or Tuolumne Meadows?  Or even Happy Isles and going 20 miles a day.  Or if he got to the valley (Yosemite Valley) and started his hike the same day he arrived and he arrived from sea level.  I am looking for details so that my friend can understand why someone got it and the lessons learned.

                Thanks!

                -------------------------------------------------
                Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
                _



                On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 9:10 PM, berdomb@... [johnmuirtrail] <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                 

                I read of a hiker last year that thought he did. He ended up sorta freaking out about it with anxiety  and bailed out.  Chances are, he just got carried awayt worrying about it.  I think I read he will be back this yr as well.





              • eric moss
                It seems to me that even if 95% of respondents had zero trouble, you could easily be among the unlucky 5%. I flew from sea level to Denver and drove to Estes
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 21, 2014
                  It seems to me that even if 95% of respondents had zero trouble, you could easily be among the unlucky 5%.  I flew from sea level to Denver and drove to Estes Park in one day, and hiked 15 miles at 12000 feet the next.  I'm not in good shape, but other than huffing and puffing, had no trouble at all.  I then met friends, who had been working out consistently, for a hike from Crested Butte to Aspen, and they got sick as a dog carrying literally a third of my pack weight and 30lb less flab.

                  All I can reliably recommend is to sleep every night no more than 1000 feet higher than where you slept the night before, if you can.  Also bring aspirin, Diamox or coca tea if you have an uncle in the cartel. ;)

                  If you're like me, you might get away with no more warmup than a wretchedly hard day hike from HI up to Clouds Rest and back down to sleep.  Or you may have a hell of a first week no matter what.


                  On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 1:13 AM, Roleigh Martin roleigh@... [johnmuirtrail] <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                   

                  Second hand, is where you got to speak to someone who had the issue and you were able to ask and hear answers to your questions.  Hearsay is where the person you are talking to did not experience it, but talked to or heard of someone else.  Think of hearsay in this questionnaire as "third or third-plus hand say".


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                  _



                  On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 10:11 PM, Peter Hirst peter@... [johnmuirtrail] <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                   

                  Just wondering:  what's the difference between "second hand" and "hearsay"?



                  On Jun 21, 2014, at 9:14 PM, Roleigh Martin roleigh@... [johnmuirtrail] wrote:

                   

                  Hearsay is less important to me than first-hand or second-hand stories where detailed answers can be given. What if the person you mentioned started at Red's Meadow and was going 20 miles a day.  Or Tuolumne Meadows?  Or even Happy Isles and going 20 miles a day.  Or if he got to the valley (Yosemite Valley) and started his hike the same day he arrived and he arrived from sea level.  I am looking for details so that my friend can understand why someone got it and the lessons learned.

                  Thanks!

                  -------------------------------------------------
                  Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
                  _



                  On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 9:10 PM, berdomb@... [johnmuirtrail] <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                   

                  I read of a hiker last year that thought he did. He ended up sorta freaking out about it with anxiety  and bailed out.  Chances are, he just got carried awayt worrying about it.  I think I read he will be back this yr as well.






                • medici95014
                  Roleigh: I know of 3 cases of altitude sickness, but only have limited info. 1. The first time I did the JMT, my wife joined me at Florence Lake and had an
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jun 21, 2014
                    Roleigh:

                    I know of 3 cases of altitude sickness, but only have limited info.

                    1.  The first time I did the JMT, my wife joined me at Florence Lake and had
                    an attack going over Muir Pass.  Serious vomiting, headache, etc.  At that
                    time I was too dumb to know how serious it can get, so we just waited until
                    morning to see if it would improve.  And it did.  She felt better and we spent
                    a rest day in Big Pete Meadow.  She finished the JMT @ 10 miles a day.
                    This doesn't fit your criteria since she hadn't had an opportunity to acclimate
                    from Yos Valley.

                    2.  On my second JMT, a woman had an attack climbing the switchbacks
                    to Pack Rest on Whitney.  She was hiking solo, but was hanging out/hiking with
                    a group.  She was seated by the side of the trail suffering nausea, disorientation, 
                    and profuse mucus flow from her nose.  She was doing the whole JMT sobo and 
                    was averaging 10+ miles a day.  I presume she recovered enough to finish since 
                    there was no sign of rescue activity later that day.  I thought it was odd that
                    she would be stricken that late in the trip.  We had camped near her at 
                    Wallace Creek.

                    3.  Third case was on my first trip.  I don't know if he was doing the whole
                    JMT or not.  We were camped at Sally Keyes and a group came in dragging/
                    carrying their comrade.  They complained that he kept falling asleep, but 
                    they were all-for-one and were going to help him finish the trip.  Wow!
                    They out-stupided my stupid by a long shot.  An EMT who was doing the
                    trail checked him out and immediately took off for MTR where help
                    was summoned by radio.  Next morning a helicopter woke us up at first light
                    landing in the meadow behind us.  They flew him out.  I don't know if 
                    he lived or not.  According to the EMT, who gave us the details, he 
                    was in serious condition.  I relate this instance mainly to indicate how serious
                    AMS can be.  

                    Pete
                  • Roleigh Martin
                    Pete, Thank you for your post. My friend may be reading this post. Sally Keyes is an area that can be reached by someone starting at either (a) Tuolumne
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jun 21, 2014
                      Pete,

                      Thank you for your post.

                      My friend may be reading this post.  Sally Keyes is an area that can be reached by someone starting at either (a) Tuolumne Meadows, (b) Red's Meadow, (c) or Vermillion Resort; all of which has someone starting nearly at 9000 feet altitude.  Based upon the symptoms you describe I'm going to guess that person started either at Red's or Vermillion Resort, if they got that sick at Sally Keyes.  In one of my groups, a hiker (a female M.D.) started at Red's and when she got to Sally Keyes, she had a moderate case of altitude sickness.  She made it out okay but she was twice as slow that day as she normally was.

                      I can't imagine anyone starting at Yosemite Valley and having those symptoms at Sally Keyes.

                      As for your second case, if she truly had hiked 10 miles a day all the way from Yosemite and she only started those symptoms at Pack Rest, she should have skipped the summit and just gone on down to Trail Camp.  She was foolish to do that 2 mile tangent to the summit in my opinion.  If she was in my group, I'd have pressured her severely to skip the summit and to immediately head down to Trail Camp.

                      For others, the term "pack rest" is the Whitney Summit Junction on the JMT which is 2 miles away from the summit and which is a complete tangent to the JMT, it can be skipped and hikers can just proceed onto Trail Camp on the Eastern Side of Whitney mountain range.

                      The first High Sierra Trail thru-hike we did, all 3 of us in the group felt a little dizzy getting to Pack Rest/Summit Junction, and we all wisely decided to skip the summit and just head onto Trail Camp and down to Whitney Portal. But on the High Sierra Trail, one is only out 8 days when they get to that elevation and even then only one mountain pass has been obtained.  Contrast that to the JMT when one has done 10 passes before getting to Summit Junction.

                      Roleigh

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                      On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 11:17 PM, pklein95014@... [johnmuirtrail] <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                       

                      Roleigh:


                      I know of 3 cases of altitude sickness, but only have limited info.

                      1.  The first time I did the JMT, my wife joined me at Florence Lake and had
                      an attack going over Muir Pass.  Serious vomiting, headache, etc.  At that
                      time I was too dumb to know how serious it can get, so we just waited until
                      morning to see if it would improve.  And it did.  She felt better and we spent
                      a rest day in Big Pete Meadow.  She finished the JMT @ 10 miles a day.
                      This doesn't fit your criteria since she hadn't had an opportunity to acclimate
                      from Yos Valley.

                      2.  On my second JMT, a woman had an attack climbing the switchbacks
                      to Pack Rest on Whitney.  She was hiking solo, but was hanging out/hiking with
                      a group.  She was seated by the side of the trail suffering nausea, disorientation, 
                      and profuse mucus flow from her nose.  She was doing the whole JMT sobo and 
                      was averaging 10+ miles a day.  I presume she recovered enough to finish since 
                      there was no sign of rescue activity later that day.  I thought it was odd that
                      she would be stricken that late in the trip.  We had camped near her at 
                      Wallace Creek.

                      3.  Third case was on my first trip.  I don't know if he was doing the whole
                      JMT or not.  We were camped at Sally Keyes and a group came in dragging/
                      carrying their comrade.  They complained that he kept falling asleep, but 
                      they were all-for-one and were going to help him finish the trip.  Wow!
                      They out-stupided my stupid by a long shot.  An EMT who was doing the
                      trail checked him out and immediately took off for MTR where help
                      was summoned by radio.  Next morning a helicopter woke us up at first light
                      landing in the meadow behind us.  They flew him out.  I don't know if 
                      he lived or not.  According to the EMT, who gave us the details, he 
                      was in serious condition.  I relate this instance mainly to indicate how serious
                      AMS can be.  

                      Pete


                    • cehauser1
                      Roleigh: Didn t someone post their experience here just a few weeks ago? If I remember correctly, this guy started from HI and started feeling symptoms as
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jun 22, 2014
                        Roleigh:

                        Didn't someone post their experience here just a few weeks ago?  If I remember correctly, this guy started from HI and started feeling symptoms as early as LYV or Sunrise, continued up Lyell Cyn and almost died going over Donohue Pass, then bailed at RM.

                        There were more details in his post.  He was was the initial poster, I think, asking about "what do people recommend for preventing altitude sickness".  People advised him the standard "just go SOBO and you won't have any problems", but then he gave more details that made it clear that he was unusually susceptible.  

                        Chris.


                        ---In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <roleigh@...> wrote :

                        A friend of mine wants to know, and so do I.  Have you or anyone you know ever gotten altitude sickness doing a whole SOBO JMT hiking <15 miles a day?  If so, please provide how bad your altitude sickness (or the person you directly know of) got, if they had to vacate the trail, and where at on the trail did you or he/she get it, and did they finish the JMT, and what was the average mileage pace per day.

                        Only those starting at Happy Isles going southbound (SOBO) on the JMT am I interested in responses.

                        Personally, I do not know anyone who has gotten altitude sickness doing the JMT this way.  I do know that some of the JMT hikers got a little tired or dizzy where they took an Aleve or Ibuprofen before doing either Donahue or Forester but that was it, and it didn't stop them from doing the JMT.

                        Thanks!
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                        _

                      • Roleigh Martin
                        Chris, I have a very good memory; however, it is very short. I ll see if I can google-find it. ... Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jun 22, 2014
                          Chris, I have a very good memory; however, it is very short. <g>  I'll see if I can google-find it.

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                          On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 12:31 AM, cehauser1@... [johnmuirtrail] <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                           

                          Roleigh:

                          Didn't someone post their experience here just a few weeks ago?  If I remember correctly, this guy started from HI and started feeling symptoms as early as LYV or Sunrise, continued up Lyell Cyn and almost died going over Donohue Pass, then bailed at RM.


                          There were more details in his post.  He was was the initial poster, I think, asking about "what do people recommend for preventing altitude sickness".  People advised him the standard "just go SOBO and you won't have any problems", but then he gave more details that made it clear that he was unusually susceptible.  

                          Chris.


                        • Roleigh Martin
                          I found the thread, Chris. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/johnmuirtrail/conversations/topics/32699 He started at Tuolumne Meadows, not Yosemite Valley.
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jun 22, 2014
                            I found the thread, Chris.


                            He started at Tuolumne Meadows, not Yosemite Valley.  Lots of lessons learned which he documents in hindsight.

                            Thanks for bringing that thread to my attention.  It was a good one.

                            Roleigh

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                            On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 12:34 AM, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...> wrote:
                            Chris, I have a very good memory; however, it is very short. <g>  I'll see if I can google-find it.

                            -------------------------------------------------
                            Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
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                            On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 12:31 AM, cehauser1@... [johnmuirtrail] <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                             

                            Roleigh:

                            Didn't someone post their experience here just a few weeks ago?  If I remember correctly, this guy started from HI and started feeling symptoms as early as LYV or Sunrise, continued up Lyell Cyn and almost died going over Donohue Pass, then bailed at RM.


                            There were more details in his post.  He was was the initial poster, I think, asking about "what do people recommend for preventing altitude sickness".  People advised him the standard "just go SOBO and you won't have any problems", but then he gave more details that made it clear that he was unusually susceptible.  

                            Chris.



                          • Douglas S. Aldrich
                            In the comments, he says the doctor thinks the high protein and statins had a negative effect on his kidneys. Which is another issue to take into
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jun 22, 2014

                              In the comments, he says the doctor thinks the high protein and statins had a negative effect on his kidneys.  Which is another issue to take into consideration. 


                              From: "cehauser1@... [johnmuirtrail]" <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com>
                              To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2014 12:31:15 AM
                              Subject: [John Muir Trail] Re: Have you or anyone you know ever gotten altitude sickness doing a whole SOBO JMT hiking <15 miles a day?

                               

                              Roleigh:


                              Didn't someone post their experience here just a few weeks ago?  If I remember correctly, this guy started from HI and started feeling symptoms as early as LYV or Sunrise, continued up Lyell Cyn and almost died going over Donohue Pass, then bailed at RM.


                              There were more details in his post.  He was was the initial poster, I think, asking about "what do people recommend for preventing altitude sickness".  People advised him the standard "just go SOBO and you won't have any problems", but then he gave more details that made it clear that he was unusually susceptible.  

                              Chris.


                              ---In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <roleigh@...> wrote :

                              A friend of mine wants to know, and so do I.  Have you or anyone you know ever gotten altitude sickness doing a whole SO BO JMT hiking <15 miles a day?  If so, please provide how bad your altitude sickness (or the person you directly know of) got, if they had to vacate the trail, and where at on the trail did you or he/she get it, and did they finish the JMT, and what was the average mileage pace per day.

                              Only those starting at Happy Isles going southbound (SOBO) on the JMT am I interested in responses.

                              Personally, I do not know anyone who has gotten altitude sickness doing the JMT this way.  I do know that some of the JMT hikers got a little tired or dizzy where they took an Aleve or Ibuprofen before doing either Donahue or Forester but that was it, and it didn't stop them from doing the JMT.

                              Thanks!
                              -------------------------------------------------
                              Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
                              _



                            • Ray Rippel
                              Good evening, Roleigh, I did, although it was not a particularly bad case, and was probably exacerbated by lots of smoke in the air while I climbed out of
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jun 22, 2014
                                Good evening, Roleigh,

                                I did, although it was not a particularly bad case, and was probably exacerbated by lots of smoke in the air while I climbed out of Yosemite Valley.

                                I started hearing lots of noise when I breathed on day 3, in Lyell Canyon. By the time I got to Red's, on day 5, it had gotten pretty bad--I had trouble sleeping with the noise in my lungs.

                                I took an unscheduled rest day, ran into Mammoth Lakes to see a doctor, and he gave me some medicine. (I have not idea what it was.) After two good night's of sleep in a cabin at Red's I was cured.

                                I haven't had anything significant since.

                                Good hiking, Ray
                              • medici95014
                                Roleigh: My description wasn t clear (or my memory is foggy). In case #2, the woman was below the junction at which you decide Whitney Summit or Trail
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jun 22, 2014
                                  Roleigh:

                                  My description wasn't clear (or my memory is foggy).  In case #2, the woman was
                                  below the junction at which you decide "Whitney Summit or Trail Crest".  I think of
                                  Pack Rest as being at or near that junction, but perhaps not.  So she
                                  wasn't trying to get to the Summit regardless of her condition.  I assume that she
                                  didn't try for the summit and took the direct path over Trail Crest and headed toward
                                  Trail Camp, but I never heard the end of the story.  I agree -- it would have been
                                  a terrible decision for her to try to summit.  (Besides, the summit was socked in
                                  by clouds and I recall hearing a thunder clap or two, but that's another story.)

                                  Cheers,   Pete


                                  ---In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <roleigh@...> wrote :

                                  Pete,

                                  Thank you for your post.

                                  My friend may be reading this post.  Sally Keyes is an area that can be reached by someone starting at either (a) Tuolumne Meadows, (b) Red's Meadow, (c) or Vermillion Resort; all of which has someone starting nearly at 9000 feet altitude.  Based upon the symptoms you describe I'm going to guess that person started either at Red's or Vermillion Resort, if they got that sick at Sally Keyes.  In one of my groups, a hiker (a female M.D.) started at Red's and when she got to Sally Keyes, she had a moderate case of altitude sickness.  She made it out okay but she was twice as slow that day as she normally was.

                                  I can't imagine anyone starting at Yosemite Valley and having those symptoms at Sally Keyes.

                                  As for your second case, if she truly had hiked 10 miles a day all the way from Yosemite and she only started those symptoms at Pack Rest, she should have skipped the summit and just gone on down to Trail Camp.  She was foolish to do that 2 mile tangent to the summit in my opinion.  If she was in my group, I'd have pressured her severely to skip the summit and to immediately head down to Trail Camp.

                                  For others, the term "pack rest" is the Whitney Summit Junction on the JMT which is 2 miles away from the summit and which is a complete tangent to the JMT, it can be skipped and hikers can just proceed onto Trail Camp on the Eastern Side of Whitney mountain range.

                                  The first High Sierra Trail thru-hike we did, all 3 of us in the group felt a little dizzy getting to Pack Rest/Summit Junction, and we all wisely decided to skip the summit and just head onto Trail Camp and down to Whitney Portal. But on the High Sierra Trail, one is only out 8 days when they get to that elevation and even then only one mountain pass has been obtained.  Contrast that to the JMT when one has done 10 passes before getting to Summit Junction.

                                  Roleigh

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                                  On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 11:17 PM, pklein95014@... [johnmuirtrail] <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                   

                                  Roleigh:


                                  I know of 3 cases of altitude sickness, but only have limited info.

                                  1.  The first time I did the JMT, my wife joined me at Florence Lake and had
                                  an attack going over Muir Pass.  Serious vomiting, headache, etc.  At that
                                  time I was too dumb to know how serious it can get, so we just waited until
                                  morning to see if it would improve.  And it did.  She felt better and we spent
                                  a rest day in Big Pete Meadow.  She finished the JMT @ 10 miles a day.
                                  This doesn't fit your criteria since she hadn't had an opportunity to acclimate
                                  from Yos Valley.

                                  2.  On my second JMT, a woman had an attack climbing the switchbacks
                                  to Pack Rest on Whitney.  She was hiking solo, but was hanging out/hiking with
                                  a group.  She was seated by the side of the trail suffering nausea, disorientation, 
                                  and profuse mucus flow from her nose.  She was doing the whole JMT sobo and 
                                  was averaging 10+ miles a day.  I presume she recovered enough to finish since 
                                  there was no sign of rescue activity later that day.  I thought it was odd that
                                  she would be stricken that late in the trip.  We had camped near her at 
                                  Wallace Creek.

                                  3.  Third case was on my first trip.  I don't know if he was doing the whole
                                  JMT or not.  We were camped at Sally Keyes and a group came in dragging/
                                  carrying their comrade.  They complained that he kept falling asleep, but 
                                  they were all-for-one and were going to help him finish the trip.  Wow!
                                  They out-stupided my stupid by a long shot.  An EMT who was doing the
                                  trail checked him out and immediately took off for MTR where help
                                  was summoned by radio.  Next morning a helicopter woke us up at first light
                                  landing in the meadow behind us.  They flew him out.  I don't know if 
                                  he lived or not.  According to the EMT, who gave us the details, he 
                                  was in serious condition.  I relate this instance mainly to indicate how serious
                                  AMS can be.  

                                  Pete


                                • skrapp138
                                  A friend of mine had breathing difficulty around 8500 ft. - she got an audible wheeze (fairly loud) and crackling in her lungs when she inhaled. She was only a
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jun 23, 2014
                                    A friend of mine had breathing difficulty around 8500 ft. - she got an audible wheeze (fairly loud) and crackling in her lungs when she inhaled. She was only a section hiker but decided to not continue on past TM because she was a little freaked out by these symptoms. I've hiked with her since in the Sierras, and had her take Diamox before starting her acclimation improved mildly, but her body seems to really struggle over 10k. She seems to get audible breathing issues everytime. (I swear by Diamox, by the way - but I also haven't experienced any negative side effects from it - only the benefits). 

                                    Personallu, I experience heart palpitations and headaches over 8500 feet, I have verged on fainting several times over 11k (which is scary). Other than Diamox, the thing that helps me the most is staying VERY hydrated. I drink WAY more water than the recommended 3 liters a day (I actually find 3 liters is far from enough for me once I get over 8k ft). If I don't pee for a few hours thats a red flag for me. I also now bring Nuun tabs with me, and those have been amazing for my hydration level.

                                    I came across this Yosemite SAR Blog post a few weeks ago - it's definitely worth sharing. The thing that strikes me most is that this guy had been living in TM for a month before getting sick. Definitely something to note. I don't think anyone is immune to altitude sickness. 

                                    Erica

                                  • dbindsch@rocketmail.com
                                    In terms of prevention, there are two recent studies showing that ibuprofen has a statistically significant effect on decreasing the incidence of AMS. Here s a
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jun 23, 2014
                                      In terms of prevention, there are two recent studies showing that ibuprofen has a statistically significant effect on decreasing the incidence of AMS. Here's a link to one of them (this is to the PDF file of the paper):

                                      http://tinyurl.com/ol5k7x5

                                      or do a google search on "Ibuprofen Prevents Altitude Illness:"

                                      The protocol is simple - take ibuprofen before ascending. They used 600mg, taken 6 hrs prior. The authors note a lack of undesirable effects as compared to alternative treats (p. 488 in the paper). Personally, I'm adding this to my "tool kit."

                                      In terms of some of the symptoms discussed in previous posts, the scary ones are:

                                      skrapp138's friend (and possibly Ray Rippel) - wheezing and (especially) crackling noises are indicative of fluid in the lungs. That's pulmonary edema, which is a symptom of HAPE (High Altittude Pulmonary Edema).

                                      medici95014 - last example. Could have been HACE (High Altitude Cerebral Edema). See this Google Doc for an excellent discussion of an incidence of HAPE and what this group of scouts and leaders went through in dealing with it (at Philmont in NM):

                                      https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nwZnHsyeBHfh9h4fbWlPst7HnXk_n1mihwLw-jSNhOc/edit?usp=sharing

                                      Both HACE and HAPE progress from AMS. Both are potentially fatal if untreated. First step is to get to lower elevation. Rest can help in many cases of AMS, particularly mild ones. This is not true of HAPE and HACE - those symptoms mean you need to get down immediately. HACE is particularly scary, since it clearly interferes with the affected person's thinking.
                                    • kent.mclemore
                                      Roleigh, not a direct response to your important query, but... If you are looking for first hand accounts of AMS and other altitude-related illnesses,
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jun 23, 2014
                                        Roleigh, not a direct response to your important query, but...
                                        If you are looking for first hand accounts of AMS and other altitude-related illnesses, summitpost and 14ers.com have endless threads and articles on the subject. Throw JMT into the search and you might find some accounts that fit your criteria. My take is that AMS can strike anyone, anytime.  Even the most fit, acclimated climbers can fall ill without warning or explanation. While beginning at HI and hiking SOBO may be helpful in preventing AMS, there are no guarantees. Sometimes it just doesn't matter at what elevation you live, where you start, where you camp, how fast you hike, what your experience is, how much water you drink or ibuprofen you've consumed, you can still get hammered with AMS.
                                        -km
                                      • Roleigh Martin
                                        Kent, I was interested in the prevalence (pct of the time) that those who start out at Happy Isles who hike an easy pace going southbound get altitude
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jun 23, 2014
                                          Kent, I was interested in the prevalence (pct of the time) that those who start out at Happy Isles who hike an easy pace going southbound get altitude sickness.  I know it's not uncommon starting at part-way junction points to get AMS.  I've seen that happen.  I have not seen any adult who come into the valley, stays overnight, hikes only 4 miles the first day, takes 3 to 3.5 days to get to TM, then another 4.5 days to get to Reds get altitude sickness where they had to abandon the trail.  I have witnessed people getting a little dizzy doing Donahue and Forester (and started a whole southbound JMT at an easy pace) but because of having taken Ibuprofen in the morning of each were able to get up and over the passes with only a very tiny headache.  



                                          -------------------------------------------------
                                          Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
                                          _



                                          On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 2:13 PM, kent.mclemore@... [johnmuirtrail] <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                           

                                          Roleigh, not a direct response to your important query, but...

                                          If you are looking for first hand accounts of AMS and other altitude-related illnesses, summitpost and 14ers.com have endless threads and articles on the subject. Throw JMT into the search and you might find some accounts that fit your criteria. My take is that AMS can strike anyone, anytime.  Even the most fit, acclimated climbers can fall ill without warning or explanation. While beginning at HI and hiking SOBO may be helpful in preventing AMS, there are no guarantees. Sometimes it just doesn't matter at what elevation you live, where you start, where you camp, how fast you hike, what your experience is, how much water you drink or ibuprofen you've consumed, you can still get hammered with AMS.
                                          -km


                                        • debrabrownbear
                                          My husband and I very successfully used the 1600 mg/day ibuprofen regimen on the JMT last year, starting from Tuolumne Meadows. We started the protocol the day
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Jun 23, 2014
                                            My husband and I very successfully used the 1600 mg/day ibuprofen regimen on the JMT last year, starting from Tuolumne Meadows. We started the protocol the day before, camped one night at TM, then at the first Lyell Crossing, then up and over Donohue to just past Thousand Lake. We had no symptoms, and scaled back to 800 mg/day after day 4, then 600mg after a couple more successful days. Helped my sore knees, too. Debra
                                          • cjoslyn99
                                            My story from 2009 - haven t had problems since. I start Diamox the day before my trips and pretty much take it throughout (though I cut back the dosage after
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Jun 23, 2014

                                              My story from 2009 - haven't had problems since.  I start Diamox the day before my trips and pretty much take it throughout (though I cut back the dosage after a few days).

                                               

                                              https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/johnmuirtrail/conversations/topics/5714

                                               

                                               

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