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LNT Leave no Trace

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  • johndittli
    This was posted over at the Facebook site, I don t think it s been posted here. It would be great if everyone on this site would read and adhere to it. It
    Message 1 of 30 , Feb 21, 2014
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      This was posted over at the Facebook site, I don't think it's been posted here. It would be great if everyone on this site would read and adhere to it. 

      It would be even better if you had to read it before you could even join the group (or receive a permit for that matter).

    • casebeth16
      Nice refresher course .
      Message 2 of 30 , Feb 21, 2014
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        Nice "refresher course".  
      • brucelem12
        That brings to mind a Leave No Trace / Wilderness Ethics question for anyone willing to educate me: - If a trail has eroded to the point it is a foot or
        Message 3 of 30 , Feb 21, 2014
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          That brings to mind a " Leave No Trace / Wilderness Ethics" question for anyone willing to educate me:
          - If a trail has eroded to the point it is a foot or more deep, (i.e. has clearly become a water erosion gulley), and there is a secondary trail on the bank above/alongside it, should one continue to use the primary? I realize the secondary trail has probably been formed by the improper justification of keeping dry feet when the main trail is flooded, (obviously not a good reason to wear new trail), but doesn't continued use of the main trail (regardless dry or wet) accelerate extreme erosion?
          I generally stay on the main regardless, but often debate that internally.
          The JMT gets so much attention that these sort of splits usually have dead branches placed by rangers or trailworkers blocking one of the splits, (sometimes the low, sometimes the high), making the question moot, but other trails usually don't.
          Bruce
        • johndittli
          This is a great question. From my experience during the ranger years, you should stay in the gut. This is absolutely true if there isn t a parallel trail.
          Message 4 of 30 , Feb 21, 2014
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            This is a great question. From my experience during the ranger years, you should stay in the gut. This is absolutely true if there isn't a parallel trail. Until the proper maintenance is carried out (diverting the water course off the trail), the water will continue to erode until it reaches bedrock. While continued use by boots may dislodge some rocks and soil, by walking out of the ditch, over time boots will break down whatever root systems were holding the top soil in in the first place and the classic parallel trails will form.

            In some cases though, the old eroded trail will actually be used by trail crew to divert water off the secondary trail. In these cases it's usually pretty obvious as there is a well worn/maintained trail above the eroded one and usually the ditch will have stones placed as check dams to halt further erosion. Also in some cases vegetation will be coming up in the old trail so it's best to let those roots get established and use the newer one if well worn.

            There is something that those of us that go out early in the season have to accept; our shoes are going to get wet and muddy. It's not ok to walk around water filled trails and mud holes, or around snow banks for that matter, UNLESS we can do so on hardened surfaces such as rock.

            If we make a conscious to go out during the "mud" season, then we do so with that in mind. 

            JD
            Walk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trail
          • Don Amundson
            Thanks for posting this John. Getting everyone to adhere to it will always be a problem. There are those who like to interpret LNT principals to fit their
            Message 5 of 30 , Feb 21, 2014
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              Thanks for posting this John.  Getting everyone to adhere to it will always be a problem.  There are those who like to interpret LNT principals to fit their own idea of ethical practices or to put it bluntly, as business associate once said to me, rules are for fools.

              On a recent internet post someone talked about burning paper bags used to package food.  Included in their answer to my suggestion that it wasn't the best thing to do was  "No one packs “everything” out during a three week hike."  Maybe they were referring to something other than trash but it's the underlying attitude that's disturbing.


              To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
              From: johndittli@...


               
              This was posted over at the Facebook site, I don't think it's been posted here. It would be great if everyone on this site would read and adhere to it. 

              It would be even better if you had to read it before you could even join the group (or receive a permit for that matter).


              _,___
            • brucelem12
              Thanks for the explanation John!...makes sense. Bruce
              Message 6 of 30 , Feb 21, 2014
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                Thanks for the explanation John!...makes sense.
                Bruce
              • John Ladd
                One thing that might be added to LNT Trekking poles have been studied and have no significant negative impacts on trails. But they are hard on bridges or the
                Message 7 of 30 , Feb 21, 2014
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                  One thing that might be added to LNT

                  Trekking poles have been studied and have no significant negative impacts on trails. But they are hard on bridges or the occasional wood walkway that goes across a meadow. The tips create small nicks, which accelerate deterioration with water, ice and insects.

                  Please carry your poles in yur hand when walking on wood surfaces.

                  John Curran Ladd
                  1616 Castro Street
                  San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                  415-648-9279


                  On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 10:47 AM, <johndittli@...> wrote:
                   

                  This was posted over at the Facebook site, I don't think it's been posted here. It would be great if everyone on this site would read and adhere to it. 


                  It would be even better if you had to read it before you could even join the group (or receive a permit for that matter).


                • ravi_jmt2013
                  I m curious to know which rule is most broken or disregarded. The toilet issues are disgusting but I only encountered a few bad situations over a few weeks.
                  Message 8 of 30 , Feb 22, 2014
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                    I'm curious to know which rule is most broken or disregarded.  The toilet issues are disgusting but I only encountered a few bad situations over a few weeks.  On the other hand, I noticed people camping on non durable surfaces quite a few times. I started to wonder whether I was over interpreting the rule after passing over attractive but non durable campsites only to later see others camped there.  Especially around lakes (Thousand Island comes to mind), it seems like many people camp on grass quite close to the shoreline.  

                    Other than not trampling the grass, condensation is not as bad when camped on dirt or gravel type surfaces so I prefer doing that anyway.
                  • John Ladd
                    ... I ve found this also. I think if more people understood it, there d be less abuse of the near-lake areas. One strategy that works well is to have dinner
                    Message 9 of 30 , Feb 22, 2014
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                      On Sat, Feb 22, 2014 at 10:47 AM, <ravi@...> wrote:
                      .. condensation is not as bad when camped on dirt or gravel type surfaces so I prefer doing that anyway.

                      I've found this also. I think if more people understood it, there'd be less abuse of the near-lake areas. One strategy that works well is to have dinner (and the next breakfast) at lakes or in established campsites but move on to a dry site just for sleeping. They are pretty easy to notice once your eyes get used to what to look for - flat granite slaps, benches above the trail, faint use trails leading off of the main trail.

                      John Curran Ladd
                      1616 Castro Street
                      San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                      415-648-9279
                    • casebeth16
                      Huh. I actually chose to pack my daily food rations for short backpacking trips in small paper bags with the intent of using the bag as fire starter. I have
                      Message 10 of 30 , Feb 22, 2014
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                        Huh.  I actually chose to pack my daily food rations for short backpacking trips in small paper bags with the intent of using the bag as fire starter.  I have never thought that it was a "no no"…but seems from Dons post that it is.  I've also then burned toilet paper that I carried from pit stops along the trail.  So I assume that too is a no no.  Why is that?
                      • johndittli
                        The purist form of LNT includes not having campfires even if is legal (consumption of wood, smoke, firerings, etc). But burning paper completely, that has no
                        Message 11 of 30 , Feb 22, 2014
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                          The purist form of LNT includes not having campfires even if is legal (consumption of wood, smoke, firerings, etc). But burning paper completely, that has no plastic or foil liner, in a legal, established fire ring, in a safe manner during an open fire season; IMHO has zero impact other than perhaps some very temporary, light smoke.

                          I can't speak for Don, so I'm not sure what he may be thinking here.

                          JD
                          Walk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trail
                        • johndittli
                          Ravi, I would suggest the most commonly disregarded rule(s) are; camping within 100 of water and within 100 of a/the trail whether on a hardened surface or
                          Message 12 of 30 , Feb 22, 2014
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                            Ravi, I would suggest the most commonly disregarded rule(s) are; camping within 100' of water and within 100' of a/the trail whether on a hardened surface or not. Next I would say camping on vegetation in general.

                            Many established camps (most? along the JMT) do not meet the 100' rule but have yet to be rehabed so they are still accepted campsites.

                            JD
                            Walk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trail
                          • John Ladd
                            ... I agree. Big part of the difficulty it teaching people to respect the LNT rules is that most of the campsites anyone sees on the JMT violate the rules. You
                            Message 13 of 30 , Feb 22, 2014
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                              On Sat, Feb 22, 2014 at 3:50 PM, <johndittli@...> wrote:
                              Many established camps (most? along the JMT) do not meet the 100' rule but have yet to be rehabed so they are still accepted campsites.

                              I agree. Big part of the difficulty it teaching people to respect the LNT rules is that most of the campsites anyone sees on the JMT violate the rules. You have to ignore the obvious sites and look for the not obvious ones. But you will be rewarded by better campsites if you do look for the less-obvious ones. They feel a lot less like car camping.

                              John Curran Ladd
                              1616 Castro Street
                              San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                              415-648-9279
                            • don.amundson
                              Speaking for Don it is a no no. But that s how I read the LNT principals. Pack out all trash, left over food and litter John has a different opinion and I m
                              Message 14 of 30 , Feb 22, 2014
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                                Speaking for Don it is a no no. But that's how I read the LNT principals."Pack out all trash, left over food and litter"  John has a different opinion and I'm sure if 10 people gave there opinions about LNT you would get a variety of opinions.  That's why you'll see "violations" (by my interpretation) of the principles where ever you go and you'll have to decide on your own idea of what is right.   
                                You do bring out a good point.  If you're going to burn paper bags why not burn toilet paper? I'd be all for requiring people to burn their toilet paper, paper bags too, in the responsible manner John describes. It would certainly leave less impact that what's being done now. But if people can't even do what's right and pack out their toilet paper you're sure not going to get them to burn it, responsibly or not.  YMMV

                                Don
                              • kennethjessett@sbcglobal.net
                                Well, you know Don, there are those who think they are alone on the planet. Ken.
                                Message 15 of 30 , Feb 22, 2014
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                                  Well, you know Don, there are those who think they are alone on the planet.
                                  Ken.
                                • johndittli
                                  You are right Don and it isn t just LNT that suggests you pack out all your trash, it is in both the USFS and NPS regs. This is the reg used to enforce packing
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Feb 22, 2014
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                                    You are right Don and it isn't just LNT that suggests you pack out all your trash, it is in both the USFS and NPS regs. This is the reg used to enforce packing out used TP. That said, most everyone that has campfires, uses paper of some sort to start them. As an ex-Ranger I can tell you it would be impossible to build a case around a citation given for starting a legal campfire with paper. The judge would dismiss it before you walked in the door. However, if you are burning TP on site, then that's a different story. 

                                    It is a very slippery slope if we allow the public to decide what's "right" in regard to LNT. In my tenure as a Wilderness Ranger I can tell you that most people wanted to do the "right thing" but didn't know what that was. Most people have no idea that their "one little impact" will be multiplied by thousands over the course of a season or years. It's all about education, and forums like this are the perfect venue. Personally, I would like to see a LOT more discussions like this on these forums.

                                    JD
                                    Walk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trail
                                  • casebeth16
                                    Very interesting. Understand that I want to do what s right . And I do use fires responsibly…and I pick thru the ash very carefully before leaving to
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Feb 22, 2014
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                                      Very interesting.  Understand that I want to "do what's right".  And I do use fires responsibly…and I pick thru the ash very carefully before leaving to ensure there are no "bits" in there.  But…I have questions now.  First, Don, what is YMMV?  (obviously a newbie to these sites and its lingo :-)  So.  My interpretation of "pack out all trash, left over litter/food" is that if I am able to have a fire, and I can burn it, then it's not "left over".  It's burned.  Gone.  Anything left over is packed out.  And I'm not sure that I can see where burning TP is worse than a paper bag? I'm not talking about burning plastics or anything, as even I know that's a no no…but tissue?  Just don't get it…I don't mean to be ignorant…I just want to know what the rational is, so that I can adopt good practice. 
                                    • John Ladd
                                      ... YMMV = Your Mileage may Vary - used generally for your experience may differ from mine. I don t build fires, so I don t have personal experience, but I
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Feb 22, 2014
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                                        On Sat, Feb 22, 2014 at 7:01 PM, <casebeth16@...> wrote:
                                        what is YMMV?

                                        YMMV = Your Mileage may Vary - used generally for your experience may differ from mine.

                                        I don't build fires, so I don't have personal experience, but I doubt that the most objectionable part of used TP burns very well.  

                                        I just don't find it hard to pack out used wipes, though there are lots of better wipes than TP. 

                                        My personal preference is the Purell Sanitizing Hand Wipes. They get used first for hand sanitation and, after drying out, as toilet paper. If you fold and refold you don't need many - maybe 2 per day. You don't have to bring the packaging, you can easily put 20 in a small plastic bag at the start of a segment.

                                        Inline image 2


                                        Dried fruit packaging makes a good way to keep the used ones out of sight and firmly encased while packing it out

                                        Inline image 1\

                                        Link to picture if it does not appear


                                        Burning them seems more trouble than it's worth. The yuk factor reduces once you get used to it.

                                        John Curran Ladd
                                        1616 Castro Street
                                        San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                                        415-648-9279
                                      • cehauser1
                                        John Ladd is correct: the moist used portion of the toilet paper does not burn unassisted. Even worse, the dry unused TP burns hot and fast, sending
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Feb 22, 2014
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                                          John Ladd is correct:  the moist "used" portion of the toilet paper does not burn unassisted.  Even worse, the dry "unused" TP burns hot and fast, sending hundreds of tiny burning pieces of TP floating away in the slightest breeze... it is a nightmare scenario burning toilet paper in a dry flammable location.  As a teenager, I almost started a forest fire from burning TP.

                                          I think burning TP inside a paper bag might help contain the dry flammable stuff, and might help consume the moist non-flammable stuff, but I'm not sure. You really need a small wood fire to build up enough heat to dry out and burn the moist part of the TP, but I think you will always have the problem of starting a wildfire from the floating embers, and by using wood you are veering away from the LNT principles, at least in the High Sierra where wood is a valuable natural resource.

                                          So, in my in my experience, burning TP is not a great way to go, if you are trying to follow LNT principles.  I refuse to carry used TP around with me for days at a time, so I wash with water, and find that far superior to TP, especially on an extended backpacking trip.

                                          YMMV = literally "your mileage may vary", but means "your experience may differ from my experience".

                                          Chris.

                                          ---In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <casebeth16@...> wrote:

                                          Very interesting.  Understand that I want to "do what's right".  And I do use fires responsibly…and I pick thru the ash very carefully before leaving to ensure there are no "bits" in there.  But…I have questions now.  First, Don, what is YMMV?  (obviously a newbie to these sites and its lingo :-)  So.  My interpretation of "pack out all trash, left over litter/food" is that if I am able to have a fire, and I can burn it, then it's not "left over".  It's burned.  Gone.  Anything left over is packed out.  And I'm not sure that I can see where burning TP is worse than a paper bag? I'm not talking about burning plastics or anything, as even I know that's a no no…but tissue?  Just don't get it…I don't mean to be ignorant…I just want to know what the rational is, so that I can adopt good practice. 
                                        • Carolsteveyoung
                                          Might be a gender difference in how used the TP is in the first place ?! I once hiked two weeks on JMT without using any TP on the trail. (did so at rest stops
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Feb 23, 2014
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                                            Might be a gender difference in how used the TP is in the first place ?!

                                            I once hiked two weeks on JMT without using any TP on the trail. (did so at rest stops off the trail however)

                                            Same hike, my spouse used a goodly portion of her mini-roll, enough that she worried about running short on the last stretch. We were both following the conventional wisdom of "staying hydrated."

                                            Steve Young
                                            Geneva IL

                                            On Feb 22, 2014, at 10:35 PM, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:

                                             


                                            On Sat, Feb 22, 2014 at 7:01 PM, <casebeth16@...> wrote:
                                            what is YMMV?

                                            YMMV = Your Mileage may Vary - used generally for your experience may differ from mine.

                                            I don't build fires, so I don't have personal experience, but I doubt that the most objectionable part of used TP burns very well.  

                                            I just don't find it hard to pack out used wipes, though there are lots of better wipes than TP. 

                                            My personal preference is the Purell Sanitizing Hand Wipes. They get used first for hand sanitation and, after drying out, as toilet paper. If you fold and refold you don't need many - maybe 2 per day. You don't have to bring the packaging, you can easily put 20 in a small plastic bag at the start of a segment.

                                            Inline image 2


                                            Dried fruit packaging makes a good way to keep the used ones out of sight and firmly encased while packing it out

                                            Inline image 1\

                                            Link to picture if it does not appear


                                            Burning them seems more trouble than it's worth. The yuk factor reduces once you get used to it.

                                            John Curran Ladd
                                            1616 Castro Street
                                            San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                                            415-648-9279

                                          • ravi_jmt2013
                                            My assumption was that any campsite listed in the Wenk guidebook was legitimate to use even though many of them did not meet the 100 foot rule. There was one
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Feb 23, 2014
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                                              My assumption was that any campsite listed in the Wenk guidebook was legitimate to use even though many of them did not meet the 100 foot rule.  There was one campsite right next to the trail and not far above water near the Bishop Pass trail that I used because it was getting late and it appeared to be listed in the guidebook.  The campsite above the Center Basin crossing toward Forester Pass was also very close to the trail although not near water.  A ranger visited the Center Basin site to check permits and didn't mention anything about the 100 foot rule. 

                                              In general, I avoided using such campsites even if they were listed because they were often crowded and visible from the trail.  But it does take a while to find campsites that are more removed from the trail, at least it did for me last year.  Part of that was due to requiring a decent size area to pitch my shelter.  If I can get used to cowboy camping, my campsite options would vastly increase. 
                                            • kennethjessett@sbcglobal.net
                                              Toilet paper needs and use is an unpleasant subject, but careful use and disposal of it is essential if the wilderness is going to remain the wilderness. It is
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Feb 23, 2014
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                                                Toilet paper needs and use is an unpleasant subject, but careful use and disposal of it is essential if the wilderness is going to remain the wilderness. It is icky to place used paper or wipes (I only use wipes) into a bag, and most of us would rather never have to look at the offending stuff and just flush it away.
                                                But there are many parts of the world where there are no toilets and people live a 'wilderness' experience every day of their lives, so the least we can do for the two or three weeks we live away from the usual conveniences is to act responsibly.
                                                What we need, and what would be useful world wide, is a container where used toilet paper can be dropped into it and microbes (or atoms, or whatever clever stuff) can reduce it to a pleasant aromatic pill sized residue. The device may not attract a Facilebook offer to purchase it of $17 billion, but it would be immeasurably more beneficial to the planet.
                                                Ken.
                                              • woodyrtt
                                                Before I hiked the JMT last year, I had only had to poop in the woods during two trips over a 35-year span. On those trips, conditions were such that fire
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Feb 23, 2014
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                                                  Before I hiked the JMT last year, I had only had to poop in the woods during two trips over a 35-year span.  On those trips, conditions were such that fire wasn't a danger.  We dug our cathole, did our business, burned the used toilet paper, and filled in the hole.  We left no trace of toilet paper.  I was not thrilled when the ranger who gave us our permit told us we had to pack our paper out.  I went to the store in Curry Village, and bought a couple of gallon-sized zip-lock bags. I used them to hold the used toilet paper, camouflaged them with a brown paper bag, and stuck them in a mesh pocket on the back of my pack.  It really wasn't bad at all!
                                                • berdomb
                                                  It helps to gather natural wiping materials in advance of when the sudden urge hits you. Use natural materials for most of the work, and you will need very
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Feb 23, 2014
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                                                    It helps to gather natural wiping materials in advance of when the sudden urge hits you.
                                                    Use natural materials for most of the work, and you will need very very little TP.
                                                  • casebeth16
                                                    Well, I ve been to Nepal a few times, actually going again in mid March, and just never do very well with the cleansing with water bit (that s why they wear
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Feb 23, 2014
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                                                      Well, I've been to Nepal a few times, actually going again in mid March, and just never do very well with the cleansing with water bit (that's why they wear loose pants and long tops :-) and it is very clear why using your left hand in Nepal for "friendly things" is just a no no.  And I'm a mother (all grown now) and spent the last 30+ years working in a pediatric hospital, so find that poo isn't such a big, icky thing (not that I want it ON me, understand).  I have never started a fire just to burn paper…too small…too ineffective. If we had a camp fire (which I must admit I do love…shoot…not very good at the LNT :-(  I'll unload paper of all kinds then.  I do like your fruit container John for discreetness.  And if there is anything l like less stuck to my parts than little bits of tp, its' weeds/grass/etc. Although it does give you something to pick at… I've tried that & just didn't like it.  So…I'll not burn paper any longer (certainly not this year as I suspect no one will be burning anything) and will, hopefully, learn this year that I don't miss that evening chat around the fire (did miss it last year…)  This is a great forum.  I've learned lots (and I've been backpacking for many a year…so it's about time!!
                                                    • Stirling Price
                                                      Well, I have to ask: where do you suggest storing the packaged used TP at night? Do you have to worry about attracting bears to your camp? I can t imagine they
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Feb 23, 2014
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                                                        Well, I have to ask: where do you suggest storing the packaged used TP at night? Do you have to worry about attracting bears to your camp? I can't imagine they would be interested but I'm curious about conventional wisdom on this.

                                                        Stirling
                                                      • Jo T
                                                        There s an old thread on this topic, but I ll answer for me: My used TP went in the bear canister, packed with my other trash in a sturdy ziploc or sealed
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Feb 23, 2014
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                                                          There's an old thread on this topic, but I'll answer for me:
                                                          My used TP went in the bear canister, packed with my other trash in a sturdy ziploc or sealed package of some sort.
                                                          I don't use conventional TP (prefer wipes or something sturdier) on the trail, unless I've run out and the TP's gifted to me. =)


                                                          JoT.
                                                          --------------------------------------------
                                                          On Sun, 2/23/14, Stirling Price <stirlprice1@...> wrote:

                                                          Subject: [John Muir Trail] RE: LNT Leave no Trace
                                                          To: "johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com" <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com>
                                                          Date: Sunday, February 23, 2014, 6:13 PM


                                                          Well, I have to ask: where do you suggest storing
                                                          the packaged used TP at night? Do you have to worry about
                                                          attracting bears to your camp? I can't imagine they
                                                          would be interested but I'm curious about conventional
                                                          wisdom on this.



                                                          Stirling
                                                        • Stirling Price
                                                          Thanks Jo. Stirling
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Feb 23, 2014
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                                                            Thanks Jo.

                                                            Stirling

                                                            On Feb 23, 2014, at 8:30 PM, Jo T <jotslibrarylist@...> wrote:

                                                             

                                                            There's an old thread on this topic, but I'll answer for me:
                                                            My used TP went in the bear canister, packed with my other trash in a sturdy ziploc or sealed package of some sort.
                                                            I don't use conventional TP (prefer wipes or something sturdier) on the trail, unless I've run out and the TP's gifted to me. =)

                                                            JoT.
                                                            --------------------------------------------
                                                            On Sun, 2/23/14, Stirling Price <stirlprice1@...> wrote:

                                                            Subject: [John Muir Trail] RE: LNT Leave no Trace
                                                            To: "johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com" <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com>
                                                            Date: Sunday, February 23, 2014, 6:13 PM


                                                            Well, I have to ask: where do you suggest storing
                                                            the packaged used TP at night? Do you have to worry about
                                                            attracting bears to your camp? I can't imagine they
                                                            would be interested but I'm curious about conventional
                                                            wisdom on this.



                                                            Stirling





                                                          • Lynn Alexander
                                                            We just keep it in a double gal size zip lock in a mesh bag on the outside of the pack. No bear has ever been interested in many, many nights out. When the bag
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Feb 23, 2014
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                                                              We just keep it in a double gal size zip lock in a mesh bag on the outside of the pack. No bear has ever been interested in many, many nights out. When the bag gets full, we start on another bag. It is a lot lighter than the food was so not a problem to carry. Occasionally when I have come across TP that someone else has used and left by the trail I use a stick to pick it up & add to the bag. Thankfully I don't see this too often. 


                                                              On Sun, Feb 23, 2014 at 6:13 PM, Stirling Price <stirlprice1@...> wrote:
                                                               

                                                              Well, I have to ask: where do you suggest storing the packaged used TP at night? Do you have to worry about attracting bears to your camp? I can't imagine they would be interested but I'm curious about conventional wisdom on this.

                                                              Stirling


                                                            • hmdsierra
                                                              One trip with my wife and two boysI thoaught one roll would be enough and left the second roll in the car. That thought cost me a pair of my extra socks,
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Mar 9, 2014
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                                                                One trip with my wife and two boysI thoaught one roll would be enough and left the second roll in the car.  That thought cost me a pair of my extra socks, 
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