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Permits, dates,

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  • Barbara Karagosian
    Just had a chat to a Yosemite permit office ranger. Very helpful. I asked about Sunrise Lakes trailhead- they get 100+ requests a day (that s huge!). I wonder
    Message 1 of 27 , Jan 28, 2014
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      Just had a chat to a Yosemite permit office ranger. Very helpful.

      I asked about Sunrise Lakes trailhead- they get 100+ requests a day (that's huge!). I wonder if he meant altogether...

      Sunrise Lakes TH is fine to use as an entry point to go down to Whitney on the JMT.

      He said that sometimes what you put as a 1st night campsite can mean you don't get a permit. If you put Sunrise High Sierra camp, when starting at Sunrise TH, that's fine.

      Re. Lyell canyon. That's filling up daily, but the Rafferty Creek option isn't, and he had no problem with that being used as an access to then go south on the JMT either.

      When going in at Lyell, it's ok to put " past the 4 mile marker" as your 1st night campsite.

      The rangers can't access any days ahead of the 24 week window until exactly 24 weeks ahead, so any permit requests that are too early are doomed.

      Onwards!
      Barbara
    • Richard Holtzman
      Thanks that s good information. Regarding the Rafferty Creek option, does anyone know if there are any camping restrictions and could you hike the Rafferty
      Message 2 of 27 , Jan 28, 2014
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        Thanks that’s good information.  Regarding the Rafferty Creek option, does anyone know if there are any camping restrictions and could you hike the Rafferty Creek trail to Vogelsang and then down to Lyell Canyon and camp up Lyell Canyon all on the first day?

         

        Rich

         

        From: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Barbara Karagosian
        Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 4:01 PM
        To: forum JMT
        Subject: [John Muir Trail] Permits, dates,

         

         

        Just had a chat to a Yosemite permit office ranger. Very helpful.

        I asked about Sunrise Lakes trailhead- they get 100+ requests a day (that's huge!). I wonder if he meant altogether...

        Sunrise Lakes TH is fine to use as an entry point to go down to Whitney on the JMT.

        He said that sometimes what you put as a 1st night campsite can mean you don't get a permit. If you put Sunrise High Sierra camp, when starting at Sunrise TH, that's fine.

        Re. Lyell canyon. That's filling up daily, but the Rafferty Creek option isn't, and he had no problem with that being used as an access to then go south on the JMT either.

        When going in at Lyell, it's ok to put " past the 4 mile marker" as your 1st night campsite.

        The rangers can't access any days ahead of the 24 week window until exactly 24 weeks ahead, so any permit requests that are too early are doomed.

        Onwards!
        Barbara

      • Barbara Karagosian
        Rafferty to Vogelsang (starting from TM car campgrounds, not the lodge), is 6.9 miles per the Yosemite site, and 7.1 miles per my Tom Harrison map - going from
        Message 3 of 27 , Jan 28, 2014
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          Rafferty to Vogelsang (starting from TM car campgrounds, not the lodge), is 6.9 miles per the Yosemite site, and 7.1 miles per my Tom Harrison map - going from 8700 feet to 10,100 feet.  Vogelsang HSC to Lyell via Evelyn Lake is 6.3 miles (per Tom Harrison), going up from Vogelsang to 10,400 and then down to 8900 at Lyell.  Not sure about the camping restrictions, other than it has to be 4 miles past TM.  

           - 
          On Jan 28, 2014, at 4:32 PM, Richard Holtzman <rholtzman@...> wrote:

           

          Thanks that’s good information.  Regarding the Rafferty Creek option, does anyone know if there are any camping restrictions and could you hike the Rafferty Creek trail to Vogelsang and then down to Lyell Canyon and camp up Lyell Canyon all on the first day?

           

          Rich

           

          From: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Barbara Karagosian
          Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 4:01 PM
          To: forum JMT
          Subject: [John Muir Trail] Permits, dates,

           

           

          Just had a chat to a Yosemite permit office ranger. Very helpful.

          I asked about Sunrise Lakes trailhead- they get 100+ requests a day (that's huge!). I wonder if he meant altogether...

          Sunrise Lakes TH is fine to use as an entry point to go down to Whitney on the JMT.

          He said that sometimes what you put as a 1st night campsite can mean you don't get a permit. If you put Sunrise High Sierra camp, when starting at Sunrise TH, that's fine.

          Re. Lyell canyon. That's filling up daily, but the Rafferty Creek option isn't, and he had no problem with that being used as an access to then go south on the JMT either.

          When going in at Lyell, it's ok to put " past the 4 mile marker" as your 1st night campsite.

          The rangers can't access any days ahead of the 24 week window until exactly 24 weeks ahead, so any permit requests that are too early are doomed.

          Onwards!
          Barbara



        • Kevin Coker
          I m hoping to start from HI and make it to sunrise creek or vicinity.. won t be doing half dome? night one... on the permit application under the fields what
          Message 4 of 27 , Jan 28, 2014
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            I'm hoping to start from HI and make it to sunrise creek or vicinity.. won't be doing half dome?   night one... on the permit application under the fields what do i put down ? I'm having trouble interpreting...

            thank you all so much in advance...

            On Jan 28, 2014 5:05 PM, "Barbara Karagosian" <barbara@...> wrote:
             

            Rafferty to Vogelsang (starting from TM car campgrounds, not the lodge), is 6.9 miles per the Yosemite site, and 7.1 miles per my Tom Harrison map - going from 8700 feet to 10,100 feet.  Vogelsang HSC to Lyell via Evelyn Lake is 6.3 miles (per Tom Harrison), going up from Vogelsang to 10,400 and then down to 8900 at Lyell.  Not sure about the camping restrictions, other than it has to be 4 miles past TM.  


             - 
            On Jan 28, 2014, at 4:32 PM, Richard Holtzman <rholtzman@...> wrote:

             

            Thanks that’s good information.  Regarding the Rafferty Creek option, does anyone know if there are any camping restrictions and could you hike the Rafferty Creek trail to Vogelsang and then down to Lyell Canyon and camp up Lyell Canyon all on the first day?

             

            Rich

             

            From: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Barbara Karagosian
            Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 4:01 PM
            To: forum JMT
            Subject: [John Muir Trail] Permits, dates,

             

             

            Just had a chat to a Yosemite permit office ranger. Very helpful.

            I asked about Sunrise Lakes trailhead- they get 100+ requests a day (that's huge!). I wonder if he meant altogether...

            Sunrise Lakes TH is fine to use as an entry point to go down to Whitney on the JMT.

            He said that sometimes what you put as a 1st night campsite can mean you don't get a permit. If you put Sunrise High Sierra camp, when starting at Sunrise TH, that's fine.

            Re. Lyell canyon. That's filling up daily, but the Rafferty Creek option isn't, and he had no problem with that being used as an access to then go south on the JMT either.

            When going in at Lyell, it's ok to put " past the 4 mile marker" as your 1st night campsite.

            The rangers can't access any days ahead of the 24 week window until exactly 24 weeks ahead, so any permit requests that are too early are doomed.

            Onwards!
            Barbara



          • Robert
            Happy Ilses Sunrise/Merced Pass Through.
            Message 5 of 27 , Jan 28, 2014
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              Happy Ilses Sunrise/Merced Pass Through.

              --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Coker <kevincoker55@...> wrote:
              >
              > I'm hoping to start from HI and make it to sunrise creek or vicinity..
              > won't be doing half dome? night one... on the permit application under
              > the fields what do i put down ? I'm having trouble interpreting...
              >
              > thank you all so much in advance...
              > On Jan 28, 2014 5:05 PM, "Barbara Karagosian" <barbara@...> wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > Rafferty to Vogelsang (starting from TM car campgrounds, not the lodge),
              > > is 6.9 miles per the Yosemite site, and 7.1 miles per my Tom Harrison map -
              > > going from 8700 feet to 10,100 feet. Vogelsang HSC to Lyell via Evelyn
              > > Lake is 6.3 miles (per Tom Harrison), going up from Vogelsang to 10,400 and
              > > then down to 8900 at Lyell. Not sure about the camping restrictions, other
              > > than it has to be 4 miles past TM.
              > >
              > > -
              > > On Jan 28, 2014, at 4:32 PM, Richard Holtzman <rholtzman@...>
              > > wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Thanks that's good information. Regarding the Rafferty Creek option, does
              > > anyone know if there are any camping restrictions and could you hike the
              > > Rafferty Creek trail to Vogelsang and then down to Lyell Canyon and camp up
              > > Lyell Canyon all on the first day?
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Rich
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > *From:* johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com [
              > > mailto:johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com>] *On
              > > Behalf Of *Barbara Karagosian
              > > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 28, 2014 4:01 PM
              > > *To:* forum JMT
              > > *Subject:* [John Muir Trail] Permits, dates,
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Just had a chat to a Yosemite permit office ranger. Very helpful.
              > >
              > > I asked about Sunrise Lakes trailhead- they get 100+ requests a day
              > > (that's huge!). I wonder if he meant altogether...
              > >
              > > Sunrise Lakes TH is fine to use as an entry point to go down to Whitney on
              > > the JMT.
              > >
              > > He said that sometimes what you put as a 1st night campsite can mean you
              > > don't get a permit. If you put Sunrise High Sierra camp, when starting at
              > > Sunrise TH, that's fine.
              > >
              > > Re. Lyell canyon. That's filling up daily, but the Rafferty Creek option
              > > isn't, and he had no problem with that being used as an access to then go
              > > south on the JMT either.
              > >
              > > When going in at Lyell, it's ok to put " past the 4 mile marker" as your
              > > 1st night campsite.
              > >
              > > The rangers can't access any days ahead of the 24 week window until
              > > exactly 24 weeks ahead, so any permit requests that are too early are
              > > doomed.
              > >
              > > Onwards!
              > > Barbara
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Arla Hile
              Don t forget that there are 6 reservable spots out of HI per day, and also 4 first-come, first-served spots per day. You can go to the permit station in the
              Message 6 of 27 , Jan 30, 2014
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                Don't forget that there are 6 reservable spots out of HI per day, and also 4 first-come, first-served spots per day. You can go to the permit station in the wee hours and wait, and you're very likely to get one of those four spots.


                On Tuesday, January 28, 2014 5:27 PM, Robert <rnperky@...> wrote:
                 
                Happy Ilses Sunrise/Merced Pass Through.

                --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Coker <kevincoker55@...> wrote:
                >
                > I'm hoping to start from HI and make it to sunrise creek or vicinity..
                > won't be doing half dome? night one... on the permit application under
                > the fields what do i put down ? I'm having trouble interpreting...
                >
                > thank you all so much in advance...
                > On Jan 28, 2014 5:05 PM, "Barbara Karagosian" <barbara@...> wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > Rafferty to Vogelsang (starting from TM car campgrounds, not the lodge),
                > > is 6.9 miles per the Yosemite site, and 7.1 miles per my Tom Harrison map -
                > > going from 8700 feet to 10,100 feet. Vogelsang HSC to Lyell via Evelyn
                > > Lake is 6.3 miles (per Tom Harrison), going up from Vogelsang to 10,400 and
                > > then down to 8900 at Lyell. Not sure about the camping restrictions, other
                > > than it has to be 4 miles past TM.
                > >
                > > -
                > > On Jan 28, 2014, at 4:32 PM, Richard Holtzman <rholtzman@...>
                > > wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Thanks that's good information. Regarding the Rafferty Creek option, does
                > > anyone know if there are any camping restrictions and could you hike the
                > > Rafferty Creek trail to Vogelsang and then down to Lyell Canyon and camp up
                > > Lyell Canyon all on the first day?
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Rich
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > *From:* johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com [
                > > mailto:johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com>] *On
                > > Behalf Of *Barbara Karagosian
                > > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 28, 2014 4:01 PM
                > > *To:* forum JMT
                > > *Subject:* [John Muir Trail] Permits, dates,
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Just had a chat to a Yosemite permit office ranger. Very helpful.
                > >
                > > I asked about Sunrise Lakes trailhead- they get 100+ requests a day
                > > (that's huge!). I wonder if he meant altogether...
                > >
                > > Sunrise Lakes TH is fine to use as an entry point to go down to Whitney on
                > > the JMT.
                > >
                > > He said that sometimes what you put as a 1st night campsite can mean you
                > > don't get a permit. If you put Sunrise High Sierra camp, when starting at
                > > Sunrise TH, that's fine.
                > >
                > > Re. Lyell canyon. That's filling up daily, but the Rafferty Creek option
                > > isn't, and he had no problem with that being used as an access to then go
                > > south on the JMT either.
                > >
                > > When going in at Lyell, it's ok to put " past the 4 mile marker" as your
                > > 1st night campsite.
                > >
                > > The rangers can't access any days ahead of the 24 week window until
                > > exactly 24 weeks ahead, so any permit requests that are too early are
                > > doomed.
                > >
                > > Onwards!
                > > Barbara
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >



              • cehauser1
                Rich: When you have a permit for a fork in the trail situation, like Rafferty Crek, you are supposed to camp beyond the arrow in that fork, but within the
                Message 7 of 27 , Jan 30, 2014
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                  Rich:


                  When you have a permit for a "fork in the trail" situation, like Rafferty Crek, you are supposed to camp beyond the arrow in that fork, but within the vicinity of the named destination.  If you had a "Rafferty Creek to Vogelsang" permit, you need to camp beyond the Rafferty Creek arrow, but in the vicinity of Vogelsang.  If instead, you hiked up Rafferty Creek, looped past Vogelsang, skirted back down to the JMT in Lyell Canyon, and spent your first night back in Lyell Canyon... a ranger would definitely frown on that.  This is the same situation as one of the Illilouette Creek wilderness permit... You need to spend the first night at Illilouette Creek (beyond the arrow on the map).  You must spend the first night beyond the arrow, but near the named destination.


                  On the other hand, once you camp your first night at the correct destination that is named on your permit, you are free to travel through the wilderness wherever you want.  A lot of people's questions can be answered with this:  generally speaking, you can camp at any legal campsite on the second night (and onward).  The only exception is the Mt Whitney zone, and this exception:


                  "Hikers may not backtrack from one trailhead to another trailhead on any night of their trip (either partially or fully) unless exiting at their entry trailhead to end their wilderness trip."  As an example, you cannot get a permit for "Tuolumne Meadows to Glen Aulin", hike north to Glen Aulin, spend the first night at Glen Aulin, then the next day turn south and get on the JMT at Tuolumne Meadows and hike south into Lyell Canyon and continue down the JMT.  So Rich, I think your Rafferty Creek to Lyell Canyon scheme would violate this rule, since you would be "backtracking" to the Lyell Canyon trailhead.  At least that is what a ranger would probably say.


                  Really, with these permit quota system, the rangers are trying to enforce the spirit of the law, which is to spread people out in the wilderness.  It isn't a perfect system, and we all know they could make things more clear, and I know how frustrating it is for most people (myself included) but they are doing the best they can.

                  Chris.

                  ---In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <rholtzman@...> wrote:

                  Thanks that’s good information.  Regarding the Rafferty Creek option, does anyone know if there are any camping restrictions and could you hike the Rafferty Creek trail to Vogelsang and then down to Lyell Canyon and camp up Lyell Canyon all on the first day?

                   

                  Rich

                • Robert
                  To add a bit to this question: 1- the Rafferty Creek Trail to Vogelsang hike is a worthy detour, and would be worth checking out on its own. 2- It would be a
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jan 31, 2014
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                    To add a bit to this question: 1- the Rafferty Creek Trail to Vogelsang hike is a worthy detour, and would be worth checking out on its own. 2- It would be a big push for most people to actually do the whole loop and end up back on the JMT in one day, but it is very possible. 3- There are so many nice camping areas between Vogelsang and Evelyn Lake, that it is really worth it to make that your first nights destination before dropping back down into Lyell Canyon. Nice views, and good sites for camping. By camping in that area on night 1, you would be within the permit requirements as well. Lots of lakes around Vogelsang to check out as well, ( Fletcher, Townsley, Hanging Basket, ect. ).

                    --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <cehauser1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Rich:
                    >
                    >
                    > When you have a permit for a "fork in the trail" situation, like Rafferty Crek, you are supposed to camp beyond the arrow in that fork, but within the vicinity of the named destination. If you had a "Rafferty Creek to Vogelsang" permit, you need to camp beyond the Rafferty Creek arrow, but in the vicinity of Vogelsang. If instead, you hiked up Rafferty Creek, looped past Vogelsang, skirted back down to the JMT in Lyell Canyon, and spent your first night back in Lyell Canyon... a ranger would definitely frown on that. This is the same situation as one of the Illilouette Creek wilderness permit... You need to spend the first night at Illilouette Creek (beyond the arrow on the map). You must spend the first night beyond the arrow, but near the named destination.
                    >
                    >
                    > On the other hand, once you camp your first night at the correct destination that is named on your permit, you are free to travel through the wilderness wherever you want. A lot of people's questions can be answered with this: generally speaking, you can camp at any legal campsite on the second night (and onward). The only exception is the Mt Whitney zone, and this exception:
                    >
                    >
                    > "Hikers may not backtrack from one trailhead to another trailhead on any night of their trip (either partially or fully) unless exiting at their entry trailhead to end their wilderness trip." As an example, you cannot get a permit for "Tuolumne Meadows to Glen Aulin", hike north to Glen Aulin, spend the first night at Glen Aulin, then the next day turn south and get on the JMT at Tuolumne Meadows and hike south into Lyell Canyon and continue down the JMT. So Rich, I think your Rafferty Creek to Lyell Canyon scheme would violate this rule, since you would be "backtracking" to the Lyell Canyon trailhead. At least that is what a ranger would probably say.
                    >
                    > Really, with these permit quota system, the rangers are trying to enforce the spirit of the law, which is to spread people out in the wilderness. It isn't a perfect system, and we all know they could make things more clear, and I know how frustrating it is for most people (myself included) but they are doing the best they can.
                    >
                    > Chris.
                    >
                    > ---In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <rholtzman@> wrote:
                    >
                    > Thanks that’s good information. Regarding the Rafferty Creek option, does anyone know if there are any camping restrictions and could you hike the Rafferty Creek trail to Vogelsang and then down to Lyell Canyon and camp up Lyell Canyon all on the first day?
                    >
                    > Rich
                    >
                  • Barbara Karagosian
                    Thanks Robert. I just got a permit for Rafferty so I m excited now! Funnily, I d requested Rafferty with a Florence Lake exit, and the email say Whitney exit.
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jan 31, 2014
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                      Thanks Robert. I just got a permit for Rafferty so I'm excited now!  Funnily, I'd requested Rafferty with a Florence Lake exit, and the email say Whitney exit.  TM to Whitney in 9 days! I better get training :-) 



                      On Jan 31, 2014, at 6:19 AM, "Robert" <rnperky@...> wrote:

                       

                      To add a bit to this question: 1- the Rafferty Creek Trail to Vogelsang hike is a worthy detour, and would be worth checking out on its own. 2- It would be a big push for most people to actually do the whole loop and end up back on the JMT in one day, but it is very possible. 3- There are so many nice camping areas between Vogelsang and Evelyn Lake, that it is really worth it to make that your first nights destination before dropping back down into Lyell Canyon. Nice views, and good sites for camping. By camping in that area on night 1, you would be within the permit requirements as well. Lots of lakes around Vogelsang to check out as well, ( Fletcher, Townsley, Hanging Basket, ect. ).

                      --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <cehauser1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Rich:
                      >
                      >
                      > When you have a permit for a "fork in the trail" situation, like Rafferty Crek, you are supposed to camp beyond the arrow in that fork, but within the vicinity of the named destination. If you had a "Rafferty Creek to Vogelsang" permit, you need to camp beyond the Rafferty Creek arrow, but in the vicinity of Vogelsang. If instead, you hiked up Rafferty Creek, looped past Vogelsang, skirted back down to the JMT in Lyell Canyon, and spent your first night back in Lyell Canyon... a ranger would definitely frown on that. This is the same situation as one of the Illilouette Creek wilderness permit... You need to spend the first night at Illilouette Creek (beyond the arrow on the map). You must spend the first night beyond the arrow, but near the named destination.
                      >
                      >
                      > On the other hand, once you camp your first night at the correct destination that is named on your permit, you are free to travel through the wilderness wherever you want. A lot of people's questions can be answered with this: generally speaking, you can camp at any legal campsite on the second night (and onward). The only exception is the Mt Whitney zone, and this exception:
                      >
                      >
                      > "Hikers may not backtrack from one trailhead to another trailhead on any night of their trip (either partially or fully) unless exiting at their entry trailhead to end their wilderness trip." As an example, you cannot get a permit for "Tuolumne Meadows to Glen Aulin", hike north to Glen Aulin, spend the first night at Glen Aulin, then the next day turn south and get on the JMT at Tuolumne Meadows and hike south into Lyell Canyon and continue down the JMT. So Rich, I think your Rafferty Creek to Lyell Canyon scheme would violate this rule, since you would be "backtracking" to the Lyell Canyon trailhead. At least that is what a ranger would probably say.
                      >
                      > Really, with these permit quota system, the rangers are trying to enforce the spirit of the law, which is to spread people out in the wilderness. It isn't a perfect system, and we all know they could make things more clear, and I know how frustrating it is for most people (myself included) but they are doing the best they can.
                      >
                      > Chris.
                      >
                      > ---In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <rholtzman@> wrote:
                      >
                      > Thanks that’s good information. Regarding the Rafferty Creek option, does anyone know if there are any camping restrictions and could you hike the Rafferty Creek trail to Vogelsang and then down to Lyell Canyon and camp up Lyell Canyon all on the first day?
                      >
                      > Rich
                      >

                    • ravi_jmt2013
                      The Rafferty option sounds great. I m looking forward to visiting Merced Lake and Vogelsang this year and bypassing Tuolumne. Prior to hiking the JMT last
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jan 31, 2014
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                        The Rafferty option sounds great. I'm looking forward to visiting Merced Lake and Vogelsang this year and bypassing Tuolumne.  Prior to hiking the JMT last year, Vogelsang was one of my favorite places in the Sierra Nevada. The one thing that might be an issue hiking in from Tuolumne is getting into higher elevations a bit earlier in the hike.  Probably not an issue for most.

                      • Robert
                        That s awesome Barbara! The first couple miles heading up the Rafferty Creek Trail are a bit un-inspiring, but once it opens up into the meadowy area the views
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jan 31, 2014
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                          That's awesome Barbara! The first couple miles heading up the Rafferty Creek Trail are a bit un-inspiring, but once it opens up into the meadowy area the views really start getting good. The whole area around Vogelsang is pretty nice! Have a great hike and start training for that 8 day finish;) !

                          --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Thanks Robert. I just got a permit for Rafferty so I'm excited now! Funnily, I'd requested Rafferty with a Florence Lake exit, and the email say Whitney exit. TM to Whitney in 9 days! I better get training :-)
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > > On Jan 31, 2014, at 6:19 AM, "Robert" <rnperky@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > To add a bit to this question: 1- the Rafferty Creek Trail to Vogelsang hike is a worthy detour, and would be worth checking out on its own. 2- It would be a big push for most people to actually do the whole loop and end up back on the JMT in one day, but it is very possible. 3- There are so many nice camping areas between Vogelsang and Evelyn Lake, that it is really worth it to make that your first nights destination before dropping back down into Lyell Canyon. Nice views, and good sites for camping. By camping in that area on night 1, you would be within the permit requirements as well. Lots of lakes around Vogelsang to check out as well, ( Fletcher, Townsley, Hanging Basket, ect. ).
                          > >
                          > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <cehauser1@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Rich:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > When you have a permit for a "fork in the trail" situation, like Rafferty Crek, you are supposed to camp beyond the arrow in that fork, but within the vicinity of the named destination. If you had a "Rafferty Creek to Vogelsang" permit, you need to camp beyond the Rafferty Creek arrow, but in the vicinity of Vogelsang. If instead, you hiked up Rafferty Creek, looped past Vogelsang, skirted back down to the JMT in Lyell Canyon, and spent your first night back in Lyell Canyon... a ranger would definitely frown on that. This is the same situation as one of the Illilouette Creek wilderness permit... You need to spend the first night at Illilouette Creek (beyond the arrow on the map). You must spend the first night beyond the arrow, but near the named destination.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > On the other hand, once you camp your first night at the correct destination that is named on your permit, you are free to travel through the wilderness wherever you want. A lot of people's questions can be answered with this: generally speaking, you can camp at any legal campsite on the second night (and onward). The only exception is the Mt Whitney zone, and this exception:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > "Hikers may not backtrack from one trailhead to another trailhead on any night of their trip (either partially or fully) unless exiting at their entry trailhead to end their wilderness trip." As an example, you cannot get a permit for "Tuolumne Meadows to Glen Aulin", hike north to Glen Aulin, spend the first night at Glen Aulin, then the next day turn south and get on the JMT at Tuolumne Meadows and hike south into Lyell Canyon and continue down the JMT. So Rich, I think your Rafferty Creek to Lyell Canyon scheme would violate this rule, since you would be "backtracking" to the Lyell Canyon trailhead. At least that is what a ranger would probably say.
                          > > >
                          > > > Really, with these permit quota system, the rangers are trying to enforce the spirit of the law, which is to spread people out in the wilderness. It isn't a perfect system, and we all know they could make things more clear, and I know how frustrating it is for most people (myself included) but they are doing the best they can.
                          > > >
                          > > > Chris.
                          > > >
                          > > > ---In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <rholtzman@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Thanks that’s good information. Regarding the Rafferty Creek option, does anyone know if there are any camping restrictions and could you hike the Rafferty Creek trail to Vogelsang and then down to Lyell Canyon and camp up Lyell Canyon all on the first day?
                          > > >
                          > > > Rich
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Barbara Karagosian
                          Haha Robert! I ve been to Vogelsang from Merced before, then down to Lyell but not up from Lyell. I ve always wanted to go back there. The confirmation
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jan 31, 2014
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                            Haha Robert!  I've been to Vogelsang from Merced before, then down to Lyell but not up from Lyell.   I've always wanted to go back there.  The confirmation email actually advises not to stay in the Vogelsang backpacker campground due to issues with the composting toilets.  It suggests one of the surrounding lakes.   Ewww...



                            On Jan 31, 2014, at 10:37 AM, "Robert" <rnperky@...> wrote:

                             

                            That's awesome Barbara! The first couple miles heading up the Rafferty Creek Trail are a bit un-inspiring, but once it opens up into the meadowy area the views really start getting good. The whole area around Vogelsang is pretty nice! Have a great hike and start training for that 8 day finish;) !

                            --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Thanks Robert. I just got a permit for Rafferty so I'm excited now! Funnily, I'd requested Rafferty with a Florence Lake exit, and the email say Whitney exit. TM to Whitney in 9 days! I better get training :-)
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > > On Jan 31, 2014, at 6:19 AM, "Robert" <rnperky@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > To add a bit to this question: 1- the Rafferty Creek Trail to Vogelsang hike is a worthy detour, and would be worth checking out on its own. 2- It would be a big push for most people to actually do the whole loop and end up back on the JMT in one day, but it is very possible. 3- There are so many nice camping areas between Vogelsang and Evelyn Lake, that it is really worth it to make that your first nights destination before dropping back down into Lyell Canyon. Nice views, and good sites for camping. By camping in that area on night 1, you would be within the permit requirements as well. Lots of lakes around Vogelsang to check out as well, ( Fletcher, Townsley, Hanging Basket, ect. ).
                            > >
                            > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <cehauser1@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Rich:
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > When you have a permit for a "fork in the trail" situation, like Rafferty Crek, you are supposed to camp beyond the arrow in that fork, but within the vicinity of the named destination. If you had a "Rafferty Creek to Vogelsang" permit, you need to camp beyond the Rafferty Creek arrow, but in the vicinity of Vogelsang. If instead, you hiked up Rafferty Creek, looped past Vogelsang, skirted back down to the JMT in Lyell Canyon, and spent your first night back in Lyell Canyon... a ranger would definitely frown on that. This is the same situation as one of the Illilouette Creek wilderness permit... You need to spend the first night at Illilouette Creek (beyond the arrow on the map). You must spend the first night beyond the arrow, but near the named destination.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > On the other hand, once you camp your first night at the correct destination that is named on your permit, you are free to travel through the wilderness wherever you want. A lot of people's questions can be answered with this: generally speaking, you can camp at any legal campsite on the second night (and onward). The only exception is the Mt Whitney zone, and this exception:
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > "Hikers may not backtrack from one trailhead to another trailhead on any night of their trip (either partially or fully) unless exiting at their entry trailhead to end their wilderness trip." As an example, you cannot get a permit for "Tuolumne Meadows to Glen Aulin", hike north to Glen Aulin, spend the first night at Glen Aulin, then the next day turn south and get on the JMT at Tuolumne Meadows and hike south into Lyell Canyon and continue down the JMT. So Rich, I think your Rafferty Creek to Lyell Canyon scheme would violate this rule, since you would be "backtracking" to the Lyell Canyon trailhead. At least that is what a ranger would probably say.
                            > > >
                            > > > Really, with these permit quota system, the rangers are trying to enforce the spirit of the law, which is to spread people out in the wilderness. It isn't a perfect system, and we all know they could make things more clear, and I know how frustrating it is for most people (myself included) but they are doing the best they can.
                            > > >
                            > > > Chris.
                            > > >
                            > > > ---In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <rholtzman@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Thanks that’s good information. Regarding the Rafferty Creek option, does anyone know if there are any camping restrictions and could you hike the Rafferty Creek trail to Vogelsang and then down to Lyell Canyon and camp up Lyell Canyon all on the first day?
                            > > >
                            > > > Rich
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >

                          • Robert
                            That s good advice! I d recommend Townsley Lake or Evelyn Lake, though the latter is a bit exposed. Makes for good star gazing though!
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jan 31, 2014
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                              That's good advice! I'd recommend Townsley Lake or Evelyn Lake, though the latter is a bit exposed. Makes for good star gazing though!

                              --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Haha Robert! I've been to Vogelsang from Merced before, then down to Lyell but not up from Lyell. I've always wanted to go back there. The confirmation email actually advises not to stay in the Vogelsang backpacker campground due to issues with the composting toilets. It suggests one of the surrounding lakes. Ewww...
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > > On Jan 31, 2014, at 10:37 AM, "Robert" <rnperky@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > That's awesome Barbara! The first couple miles heading up the Rafferty Creek Trail are a bit un-inspiring, but once it opens up into the meadowy area the views really start getting good. The whole area around Vogelsang is pretty nice! Have a great hike and start training for that 8 day finish;) !
                              > >
                              > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Thanks Robert. I just got a permit for Rafferty so I'm excited now! Funnily, I'd requested Rafferty with a Florence Lake exit, and the email say Whitney exit. TM to Whitney in 9 days! I better get training :-)
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > > On Jan 31, 2014, at 6:19 AM, "Robert" <rnperky@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > To add a bit to this question: 1- the Rafferty Creek Trail to Vogelsang hike is a worthy detour, and would be worth checking out on its own. 2- It would be a big push for most people to actually do the whole loop and end up back on the JMT in one day, but it is very possible. 3- There are so many nice camping areas between Vogelsang and Evelyn Lake, that it is really worth it to make that your first nights destination before dropping back down into Lyell Canyon. Nice views, and good sites for camping. By camping in that area on night 1, you would be within the permit requirements as well. Lots of lakes around Vogelsang to check out as well, ( Fletcher, Townsley, Hanging Basket, ect. ).
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <cehauser1@> wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Rich:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > When you have a permit for a "fork in the trail" situation, like Rafferty Crek, you are supposed to camp beyond the arrow in that fork, but within the vicinity of the named destination. If you had a "Rafferty Creek to Vogelsang" permit, you need to camp beyond the Rafferty Creek arrow, but in the vicinity of Vogelsang. If instead, you hiked up Rafferty Creek, looped past Vogelsang, skirted back down to the JMT in Lyell Canyon, and spent your first night back in Lyell Canyon... a ranger would definitely frown on that. This is the same situation as one of the Illilouette Creek wilderness permit... You need to spend the first night at Illilouette Creek (beyond the arrow on the map). You must spend the first night beyond the arrow, but near the named destination.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > On the other hand, once you camp your first night at the correct destination that is named on your permit, you are free to travel through the wilderness wherever you want. A lot of people's questions can be answered with this: generally speaking, you can camp at any legal campsite on the second night (and onward). The only exception is the Mt Whitney zone, and this exception:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > "Hikers may not backtrack from one trailhead to another trailhead on any night of their trip (either partially or fully) unless exiting at their entry trailhead to end their wilderness trip." As an example, you cannot get a permit for "Tuolumne Meadows to Glen Aulin", hike north to Glen Aulin, spend the first night at Glen Aulin, then the next day turn south and get on the JMT at Tuolumne Meadows and hike south into Lyell Canyon and continue down the JMT. So Rich, I think your Rafferty Creek to Lyell Canyon scheme would violate this rule, since you would be "backtracking" to the Lyell Canyon trailhead. At least that is what a ranger would probably say.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Really, with these permit quota system, the rangers are trying to enforce the spirit of the law, which is to spread people out in the wilderness. It isn't a perfect system, and we all know they could make things more clear, and I know how frustrating it is for most people (myself included) but they are doing the best they can.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Chris.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > ---In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <rholtzman@> wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Thanks that’s good information. Regarding the Rafferty Creek option, does anyone know if there are any camping restrictions and could you hike the Rafferty Creek trail to Vogelsang and then down to Lyell Canyon and camp up Lyell Canyon all on the first day?
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Rich
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • Lori MacDonald
                              I m a newbie. I can see Rafferty Creek/JMT junction. But I don t understand where is the trailhead if you get a Rafferty permit. Where are you starting your
                              Message 14 of 27 , Feb 2, 2014
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                                I'm a newbie. I can see Rafferty Creek/JMT junction. But I don't understand where is the trailhead if you get a Rafferty permit. Where are you starting your hike prior to connecting with the JMT?

                                On Jan 31, 2014, at 11:03 AM, Robert wrote:

                                > That's good advice! I'd recommend Townsley Lake or Evelyn Lake, though the latter is a bit exposed. Makes for good star gazing though!
                                >
                                > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Haha Robert! I've been to Vogelsang from Merced before, then down to Lyell but not up from Lyell. I've always wanted to go back there. The confirmation email actually advises not to stay in the Vogelsang backpacker campground due to issues with the composting toilets. It suggests one of the surrounding lakes. Ewww...
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > > On Jan 31, 2014, at 10:37 AM, "Robert" <rnperky@...> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > That's awesome Barbara! The first couple miles heading up the Rafferty Creek Trail are a bit un-inspiring, but once it opens up into the meadowy area the views really start getting good. The whole area around Vogelsang is pretty nice! Have a great hike and start training for that 8 day finish;) !
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Thanks Robert. I just got a permit for Rafferty so I'm excited now! Funnily, I'd requested Rafferty with a Florence Lake exit, and the email say Whitney exit. TM to Whitney in 9 days! I better get training :-)
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > > On Jan 31, 2014, at 6:19 AM, "Robert" <rnperky@> wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > To add a bit to this question: 1- the Rafferty Creek Trail to Vogelsang hike is a worthy detour, and would be worth checking out on its own. 2- It would be a big push for most people to actually do the whole loop and end up back on the JMT in one day, but it is very possible. 3- There are so many nice camping areas between Vogelsang and Evelyn Lake, that it is really worth it to make that your first nights destination before dropping back down into Lyell Canyon. Nice views, and good sites for camping. By camping in that area on night 1, you would be within the permit requirements as well. Lots of lakes around Vogelsang to check out as well, ( Fletcher, Townsley, Hanging Basket, ect. ).
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <cehauser1@> wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Rich:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > When you have a permit for a "fork in the trail" situation, like Rafferty Crek, you are supposed to camp beyond the arrow in that fork, but within the vicinity of the named destination. If you had a "Rafferty Creek to Vogelsang" permit, you need to camp beyond the Rafferty Creek arrow, but in the vicinity of Vogelsang. If instead, you hiked up Rafferty Creek, looped past Vogelsang, skirted back down to the JMT in Lyell Canyon, and spent your first night back in Lyell Canyon... a ranger would definitely frown on that. This is the same situation as one of the Illilouette Creek wilderness permit... You need to spend the first night at Illilouette Creek (beyond the arrow on the map). You must spend the first night beyond the arrow, but near the named destination.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > On the other hand, once you camp your first night at the correct destination that is named on your permit, you are free to travel through the wilderness wherever you want. A lot of people's questions can be answered with this: generally speaking, you can camp at any legal campsite on the second night (and onward). The only exception is the Mt Whitney zone, and this exception:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > "Hikers may not backtrack from one trailhead to another trailhead on any night of their trip (either partially or fully) unless exiting at their entry trailhead to end their wilderness trip." As an example, you cannot get a permit for "Tuolumne Meadows to Glen Aulin", hike north to Glen Aulin, spend the first night at Glen Aulin, then the next day turn south and get on the JMT at Tuolumne Meadows and hike south into Lyell Canyon and continue down the JMT. So Rich, I think your Rafferty Creek to Lyell Canyon scheme would violate this rule, since you would be "backtracking" to the Lyell Canyon trailhead. At least that is what a ranger would probably say.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Really, with these permit quota system, the rangers are trying to enforce the spirit of the law, which is to spread people out in the wilderness. It isn't a perfect system, and we all know they could make things more clear, and I know how frustrating it is for most people (myself included) but they are doing the best they can.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Chris.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > ---In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <rholtzman@> wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Thanks that’s good information. Regarding the Rafferty Creek option, does anyone know if there are any camping restrictions and could you hike the Rafferty Creek trail to Vogelsang and then down to Lyell Canyon and camp up Lyell Canyon all on the first day?
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Rich
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                              • Robert
                                Tuolumne Meadows.
                                Message 15 of 27 , Feb 2, 2014
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Tuolumne Meadows.

                                  --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Lori MacDonald <lorim@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I'm a newbie. I can see Rafferty Creek/JMT junction. But I don't understand where is the trailhead if you get a Rafferty permit. Where are you starting your hike prior to connecting with the JMT?
                                  >
                                  > On Jan 31, 2014, at 11:03 AM, Robert wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > That's good advice! I'd recommend Townsley Lake or Evelyn Lake, though the latter is a bit exposed. Makes for good star gazing though!
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Haha Robert! I've been to Vogelsang from Merced before, then down to Lyell but not up from Lyell. I've always wanted to go back there. The confirmation email actually advises not to stay in the Vogelsang backpacker campground due to issues with the composting toilets. It suggests one of the surrounding lakes. Ewww...
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > > On Jan 31, 2014, at 10:37 AM, "Robert" <rnperky@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > That's awesome Barbara! The first couple miles heading up the Rafferty Creek Trail are a bit un-inspiring, but once it opens up into the meadowy area the views really start getting good. The whole area around Vogelsang is pretty nice! Have a great hike and start training for that 8 day finish;) !
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@> wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Thanks Robert. I just got a permit for Rafferty so I'm excited now! Funnily, I'd requested Rafferty with a Florence Lake exit, and the email say Whitney exit. TM to Whitney in 9 days! I better get training :-)
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > On Jan 31, 2014, at 6:19 AM, "Robert" <rnperky@> wrote:
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > To add a bit to this question: 1- the Rafferty Creek Trail to Vogelsang hike is a worthy detour, and would be worth checking out on its own. 2- It would be a big push for most people to actually do the whole loop and end up back on the JMT in one day, but it is very possible. 3- There are so many nice camping areas between Vogelsang and Evelyn Lake, that it is really worth it to make that your first nights destination before dropping back down into Lyell Canyon. Nice views, and good sites for camping. By camping in that area on night 1, you would be within the permit requirements as well. Lots of lakes around Vogelsang to check out as well, ( Fletcher, Townsley, Hanging Basket, ect. ).
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <cehauser1@> wrote:
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Rich:
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > When you have a permit for a "fork in the trail" situation, like Rafferty Crek, you are supposed to camp beyond the arrow in that fork, but within the vicinity of the named destination. If you had a "Rafferty Creek to Vogelsang" permit, you need to camp beyond the Rafferty Creek arrow, but in the vicinity of Vogelsang. If instead, you hiked up Rafferty Creek, looped past Vogelsang, skirted back down to the JMT in Lyell Canyon, and spent your first night back in Lyell Canyon... a ranger would definitely frown on that. This is the same situation as one of the Illilouette Creek wilderness permit... You need to spend the first night at Illilouette Creek (beyond the arrow on the map). You must spend the first night beyond the arrow, but near the named destination.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > On the other hand, once you camp your first night at the correct destination that is named on your permit, you are free to travel through the wilderness wherever you want. A lot of people's questions can be answered with this: generally speaking, you can camp at any legal campsite on the second night (and onward). The only exception is the Mt Whitney zone, and this exception:
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > "Hikers may not backtrack from one trailhead to another trailhead on any night of their trip (either partially or fully) unless exiting at their entry trailhead to end their wilderness trip." As an example, you cannot get a permit for "Tuolumne Meadows to Glen Aulin", hike north to Glen Aulin, spend the first night at Glen Aulin, then the next day turn south and get on the JMT at Tuolumne Meadows and hike south into Lyell Canyon and continue down the JMT. So Rich, I think your Rafferty Creek to Lyell Canyon scheme would violate this rule, since you would be "backtracking" to the Lyell Canyon trailhead. At least that is what a ranger would probably say.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Really, with these permit quota system, the rangers are trying to enforce the spirit of the law, which is to spread people out in the wilderness. It isn't a perfect system, and we all know they could make things more clear, and I know how frustrating it is for most people (myself included) but they are doing the best they can.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Chris.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > ---In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <rholtzman@> wrote:
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Thanks that’s good information. Regarding the Rafferty Creek option, does anyone know if there are any camping restrictions and could you hike the Rafferty Creek trail to Vogelsang and then down to Lyell Canyon and camp up Lyell Canyon all on the first day?
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Rich
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Barbara Karagosian
                                  Hi Lori - For the Rafferty creek option, you start your hike in Tuolumne Meadows, walk down Lyell canyon (on the JMT) to Rafferty Creek, walk up to Vogelsang
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Feb 2, 2014
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                                    Hi Lori - For the Rafferty creek option, you start your hike in Tuolumne Meadows, walk down Lyell canyon (on the JMT) to Rafferty Creek, walk up to Vogelsang High Sierra camp. Then (probably the next day) walk down back to Lyell canyon via the Evelyn Lake trail, so you end up further down (south) of Lyell canyon than when you left it for Rafferty. Then once back in Lyell, you’re back on the JMT, heading south. This option means that you miss the JMT from Happy Isles up to Tuolumne Meadow, unless you do that section first on another permit. It’s one of the easier permits to get.

                                    On Feb 2, 2014, at 5:42 PM, Lori MacDonald <lorim@...> wrote:

                                    I'm a newbie. I can see Rafferty Creek/JMT junction. But I don't understand where is the trailhead if you get a Rafferty permit. Where are you starting your hike prior to connecting with the JMT?

                                    On Jan 31, 2014, at 11:03 AM, Robert wrote:

                                    > That's good advice! I'd recommend Townsley Lake or Evelyn Lake, though the latter is a bit exposed. Makes for good star gazing though!
                                    >
                                    > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@...> wrote:
                                    >>
                                    >> Haha Robert! I've been to Vogelsang from Merced before, then down to Lyell but not up from Lyell. I've always wanted to go back there. The confirmation email actually advises not to stay in the Vogelsang backpacker campground due to issues with the composting toilets. It suggests one of the surrounding lakes. Ewww...
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>> On Jan 31, 2014, at 10:37 AM, "Robert" <rnperky@...> wrote:
                                    >>>
                                    >>> That's awesome Barbara! The first couple miles heading up the Rafferty Creek Trail are a bit un-inspiring, but once it opens up into the meadowy area the views really start getting good. The whole area around Vogelsang is pretty nice! Have a great hike and start training for that 8 day finish;) !
                                    >>>
                                    >>> --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@> wrote:
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>> Thanks Robert. I just got a permit for Rafferty so I'm excited now! Funnily, I'd requested Rafferty with a Florence Lake exit, and the email say Whitney exit. TM to Whitney in 9 days! I better get training :-)
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>>> On Jan 31, 2014, at 6:19 AM, "Robert" <rnperky@> wrote:
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>>> To add a bit to this question: 1- the Rafferty Creek Trail to Vogelsang hike is a worthy detour, and would be worth checking out on its own. 2- It would be a big push for most people to actually do the whole loop and end up back on the JMT in one day, but it is very possible. 3- There are so many nice camping areas between Vogelsang and Evelyn Lake, that it is really worth it to make that your first nights destination before dropping back down into Lyell Canyon. Nice views, and good sites for camping. By camping in that area on night 1, you would be within the permit requirements as well. Lots of lakes around Vogelsang to check out as well, ( Fletcher, Townsley, Hanging Basket, ect. ).
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>>> --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <cehauser1@> wrote:
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> Rich:
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> When you have a permit for a "fork in the trail" situation, like Rafferty Crek, you are supposed to camp beyond the arrow in that fork, but within the vicinity of the named destination. If you had a "Rafferty Creek to Vogelsang" permit, you need to camp beyond the Rafferty Creek arrow, but in the vicinity of Vogelsang. If instead, you hiked up Rafferty Creek, looped past Vogelsang, skirted back down to the JMT in Lyell Canyon, and spent your first night back in Lyell Canyon... a ranger would definitely frown on that. This is the same situation as one of the Illilouette Creek wilderness permit... You need to spend the first night at Illilouette Creek (beyond the arrow on the map). You must spend the first night beyond the arrow, but near the named destination.
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> On the other hand, once you camp your first night at the correct destination that is named on your permit, you are free to travel through the wilderness wherever you want. A lot of people's questions can be answered with this: generally speaking, you can camp at any legal campsite on the second night (and onward). The only exception is the Mt Whitney zone, and this exception:
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> "Hikers may not backtrack from one trailhead to another trailhead on any night of their trip (either partially or fully) unless exiting at their entry trailhead to end their wilderness trip." As an example, you cannot get a permit for "Tuolumne Meadows to Glen Aulin", hike north to Glen Aulin, spend the first night at Glen Aulin, then the next day turn south and get on the JMT at Tuolumne Meadows and hike south into Lyell Canyon and continue down the JMT. So Rich, I think your Rafferty Creek to Lyell Canyon scheme would violate this rule, since you would be "backtracking" to the Lyell Canyon trailhead. At least that is what a ranger would probably say.
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> Really, with these permit quota system, the rangers are trying to enforce the spirit of the law, which is to spread people out in the wilderness. It isn't a perfect system, and we all know they could make things more clear, and I know how frustrating it is for most people (myself included) but they are doing the best they can.
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> Chris.
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> ---In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <rholtzman@> wrote:
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> Thanks that’s good information. Regarding the Rafferty Creek option, does anyone know if there are any camping restrictions and could you hike the Rafferty Creek trail to Vogelsang and then down to Lyell Canyon and camp up Lyell Canyon all on the first day?
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> Rich
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>
                                    >>>
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >



                                    ------------------------------------

                                    Please strip out replied-to text if not necessary to your reply. Just select the unnecessary text and delete it. Failure to strip makes it hard for our Daily Digest members to find the new postings among the repeats. For the crib sheet to take on JMT: http://tinyurl.com/JMT-Crib - Prints on 1 sheet all the essential phone numbers/addresses you'll want for all services needed on or off the trail. We encourage all to join the JohnMuirTrail_Sidebar Yahoo Group, just send a blank email to:
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                                  • Lori MacDonald
                                    Aaah. Gotcha. Thanks
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Feb 2, 2014
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Aaah. Gotcha. Thanks

                                      On Feb 2, 2014, at 5:55 PM, Barbara Karagosian wrote:

                                      > Hi Lori - For the Rafferty creek option, you start your hike in Tuolumne Meadows, walk down Lyell canyon (on the JMT) to Rafferty Creek, walk up to Vogelsang High Sierra camp. Then (probably the next day) walk down back to Lyell canyon via the Evelyn Lake trail, so you end up further down (south) of Lyell canyon than when you left it for Rafferty. Then once back in Lyell, you’re back on the JMT, heading south. This option means that you miss the JMT from Happy Isles up to Tuolumne Meadow, unless you do that section first on another permit. It’s one of the easier permits to get.
                                      >
                                      > On Feb 2, 2014, at 5:42 PM, Lori MacDonald <lorim@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I'm a newbie. I can see Rafferty Creek/JMT junction. But I don't understand where is the trailhead if you get a Rafferty permit. Where are you starting your hike prior to connecting with the JMT?
                                      >
                                      > On Jan 31, 2014, at 11:03 AM, Robert wrote:
                                      >
                                      >> That's good advice! I'd recommend Townsley Lake or Evelyn Lake, though the latter is a bit exposed. Makes for good star gazing though!
                                      >>
                                      >> --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@...> wrote:
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Haha Robert! I've been to Vogelsang from Merced before, then down to Lyell but not up from Lyell. I've always wanted to go back there. The confirmation email actually advises not to stay in the Vogelsang backpacker campground due to issues with the composting toilets. It suggests one of the surrounding lakes. Ewww...
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>>> On Jan 31, 2014, at 10:37 AM, "Robert" <rnperky@...> wrote:
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> That's awesome Barbara! The first couple miles heading up the Rafferty Creek Trail are a bit un-inspiring, but once it opens up into the meadowy area the views really start getting good. The whole area around Vogelsang is pretty nice! Have a great hike and start training for that 8 day finish;) !
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@> wrote:
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>> Thanks Robert. I just got a permit for Rafferty so I'm excited now! Funnily, I'd requested Rafferty with a Florence Lake exit, and the email say Whitney exit. TM to Whitney in 9 days! I better get training :-)
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>>> On Jan 31, 2014, at 6:19 AM, "Robert" <rnperky@> wrote:
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>>>> To add a bit to this question: 1- the Rafferty Creek Trail to Vogelsang hike is a worthy detour, and would be worth checking out on its own. 2- It would be a big push for most people to actually do the whole loop and end up back on the JMT in one day, but it is very possible. 3- There are so many nice camping areas between Vogelsang and Evelyn Lake, that it is really worth it to make that your first nights destination before dropping back down into Lyell Canyon. Nice views, and good sites for camping. By camping in that area on night 1, you would be within the permit requirements as well. Lots of lakes around Vogelsang to check out as well, ( Fletcher, Townsley, Hanging Basket, ect. ).
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>>>> --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <cehauser1@> wrote:
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>> Rich:
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>> When you have a permit for a "fork in the trail" situation, like Rafferty Crek, you are supposed to camp beyond the arrow in that fork, but within the vicinity of the named destination. If you had a "Rafferty Creek to Vogelsang" permit, you need to camp beyond the Rafferty Creek arrow, but in the vicinity of Vogelsang. If instead, you hiked up Rafferty Creek, looped past Vogelsang, skirted back down to the JMT in Lyell Canyon, and spent your first night back in Lyell Canyon... a ranger would definitely frown on that. This is the same situation as one of the Illilouette Creek wilderness permit... You need to spend the first night at Illilouette Creek (beyond the arrow on the map). You must spend the first night beyond the arrow, but near the named destination.
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>> On the other hand, once you camp your first night at the correct destination that is named on your permit, you are free to travel through the wilderness wherever you want. A lot of people's questions can be answered with this: generally speaking, you can camp at any legal campsite on the second night (and onward). The only exception is the Mt Whitney zone, and this exception:
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>> "Hikers may not backtrack from one trailhead to another trailhead on any night of their trip (either partially or fully) unless exiting at their entry trailhead to end their wilderness trip." As an example, you cannot get a permit for "Tuolumne Meadows to Glen Aulin", hike north to Glen Aulin, spend the first night at Glen Aulin, then the next day turn south and get on the JMT at Tuolumne Meadows and hike south into Lyell Canyon and continue down the JMT. So Rich, I think your Rafferty Creek to Lyell Canyon scheme would violate this rule, since you would be "backtracking" to the Lyell Canyon trailhead. At least that is what a ranger would probably say.
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>> Really, with these permit quota system, the rangers are trying to enforce the spirit of the law, which is to spread people out in the wilderness. It isn't a perfect system, and we all know they could make things more clear, and I know how frustrating it is for most people (myself included) but they are doing the best they can.
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>> Chris.
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>> ---In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <rholtzman@> wrote:
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>> Thanks that’s good information. Regarding the Rafferty Creek option, does anyone know if there are any camping restrictions and could you hike the Rafferty Creek trail to Vogelsang and then down to Lyell Canyon and camp up Lyell Canyon all on the first day?
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>> Rich
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > Please strip out replied-to text if not necessary to your reply. Just select the unnecessary text and delete it. Failure to strip makes it hard for our Daily Digest members to find the new postings among the repeats. For the crib sheet to take on JMT: http://tinyurl.com/JMT-Crib - Prints on 1 sheet all the essential phone numbers/addresses you'll want for all services needed on or off the trail. We encourage all to join the JohnMuirTrail_Sidebar Yahoo Group, just send a blank email to:
                                      > JohnMuirTrail_Sidebar-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > Please strip out replied-to text if not necessary to your reply. Just select the unnecessary text and delete it. Failure to strip makes it hard for our Daily Digest members to find the new postings among the repeats. For the crib sheet to take on JMT: http://tinyurl.com/JMT-Crib - Prints on 1 sheet all the essential phone numbers/addresses you'll want for all services needed on or off the trail. We encourage all to join the JohnMuirTrail_Sidebar Yahoo Group, just send a blank email to:
                                      > JohnMuirTrail_Sidebar-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Arla Hile
                                      What other good/recommended options are there for entry via alternative trailheads? Since the Yosemite permit office fax didn t work all night and there
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Feb 3, 2014
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        What other good/recommended options are there for entry via alternative trailheads?
                                        Since the Yosemite permit office fax didn't work all night and there phone's been busy all morning today, it's clear I need to look at all my options!

                                        Arla


                                        On Sunday, February 2, 2014 6:25 PM, Lori MacDonald <lorim@...> wrote:
                                        Aaah.  Gotcha.  Thanks

                                        On Feb 2, 2014, at 5:55 PM, Barbara Karagosian wrote:

                                        > Hi Lori - For the Rafferty creek option, you start your hike in Tuolumne Meadows, walk down Lyell canyon (on the JMT) to Rafferty Creek, walk up to Vogelsang High Sierra camp.  Then (probably the next day) walk down back to Lyell canyon via the Evelyn Lake trail, so you end up further down (south) of Lyell canyon than when you left it for Rafferty.  Then once back in Lyell, you’re back on the JMT, heading south.  This option means that you miss the JMT from Happy Isles up to Tuolumne Meadow, unless you do that section first on another permit.  It’s one of the easier permits to get.
                                        >
                                        > On Feb 2, 2014, at 5:42 PM, Lori MacDonald <lorim@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I'm a newbie.  I can see Rafferty Creek/JMT junction.  But I don't understand where is the trailhead if you get a Rafferty permit. Where are you starting your hike prior to connecting with the JMT?
                                        >
                                        > On Jan 31, 2014, at 11:03 AM, Robert wrote:
                                        >
                                        >> That's good advice! I'd recommend Townsley Lake or Evelyn Lake, though the latter is a bit exposed. Makes for good star gazing though!
                                        >>
                                        >> --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@...> wrote:
                                        >>>
                                        >>> Haha Robert! I've been to Vogelsang from Merced before, then down to Lyell but not up from Lyell. I've always wanted to go back there. The confirmation email actually advises not to stay in the Vogelsang backpacker campground due to issues with the composting toilets. It suggests one of the surrounding lakes. Ewww...
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>> On Jan 31, 2014, at 10:37 AM, "Robert" <rnperky@...> wrote:
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>> That's awesome Barbara! The first couple miles heading up the Rafferty Creek Trail are a bit un-inspiring, but once it opens up into the meadowy area the views really start getting good. The whole area around Vogelsang is pretty nice! Have a great hike and start training for that 8 day finish;) !
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>> --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@> wrote:
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>> Thanks Robert. I just got a permit for Rafferty so I'm excited now! Funnily, I'd requested Rafferty with a Florence Lake exit, and the email say Whitney exit. TM to Whitney in 9 days! I better get training :-)
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>> On Jan 31, 2014, at 6:19 AM, "Robert" <rnperky@> wrote:
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>> To add a bit to this question: 1- the Rafferty Creek Trail to Vogelsang hike is a worthy detour, and would be worth checking out on its own. 2- It would be a big push for most people to actually do the whole loop and end up back on the JMT in one day, but it is very possible. 3- There are so many nice camping areas between Vogelsang and Evelyn Lake, that it is really worth it to make that your first nights destination before dropping back down into Lyell Canyon. Nice views, and good sites for camping. By camping in that area on night 1, you would be within the permit requirements as well. Lots of lakes around Vogelsang to check out as well, ( Fletcher, Townsley, Hanging Basket, ect. ).
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>> --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <cehauser1@> wrote:
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> Rich:
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> When you have a permit for a "fork in the trail" situation, like Rafferty Crek, you are supposed to camp beyond the arrow in that fork, but within the vicinity of the named destination. If you had a "Rafferty Creek to Vogelsang" permit, you need to camp beyond the Rafferty Creek arrow, but in the vicinity of Vogelsang. If instead, you hiked up Rafferty Creek, looped past Vogelsang, skirted back down to the JMT in Lyell Canyon, and spent your first night back in Lyell Canyon... a ranger would definitely frown on that. This is the same situation as one of the Illilouette Creek wilderness permit... You need to spend the first night at Illilouette Creek (beyond the arrow on the map). You must spend the first night beyond the arrow, but near the named destination.
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> On the other hand, once you camp your first night at the correct destination that is named on your permit, you are free to travel through the wilderness wherever you want. A lot of people's questions can be answered with this: generally speaking, you can camp at any legal campsite on the second night (and onward). The only exception is the Mt Whitney zone, and this exception:
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> "Hikers may not backtrack from one trailhead to another trailhead on any night of their trip (either partially or fully) unless exiting at their entry trailhead to end their wilderness trip." As an example, you cannot get a permit for "Tuolumne Meadows to Glen Aulin", hike north to Glen Aulin, spend the first night at Glen Aulin, then the next day turn south and get on the JMT at Tuolumne Meadows and hike south into Lyell Canyon and continue down the JMT. So Rich, I think your Rafferty Creek to Lyell Canyon scheme would violate this rule, since you would be "backtracking" to the Lyell Canyon trailhead. At least that is what a ranger would probably say.
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> Really, with these permit quota system, the rangers are trying to enforce the spirit of the law, which is to spread people out in the wilderness. It isn't a perfect system, and we all know they could make things more clear, and I know how frustrating it is for most people (myself included) but they are doing the best they can.
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> Chris.
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> ---In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <rholtzman@> wrote:
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> Thanks that’s good information. Regarding the Rafferty Creek option, does anyone know if there are any camping restrictions and could you hike the Rafferty Creek trail to Vogelsang and then down to Lyell Canyon and camp up Lyell Canyon all on the first day?
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> Rich
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Please strip out replied-to text if not necessary to your reply.  Just select the unnecessary text and delete it. Failure to strip makes it hard for our Daily Digest members to find the new postings among the repeats. For the crib sheet to take on JMT: http://tinyurl.com/JMT-Crib- Prints on 1 sheet all the essential phone numbers/addresses you'll want for all services needed on or off the trail. We encourage all to join the JohnMuirTrail_Sidebar Yahoo Group, just send a blank email to:
                                        > JohnMuirTrail_Sidebar-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo Groups Links

                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Please strip out replied-to text if not necessary to your reply.  Just select the unnecessary text and delete it. Failure to strip makes it hard for our Daily Digest members to find the new postings among the repeats. For the crib sheet to take on JMT: http://tinyurl.com/JMT-Crib- Prints on 1 sheet all the essential phone numbers/addresses you'll want for all services needed on or off the trail. We encourage all to join the JohnMuirTrail_Sidebar Yahoo Group, just send a blank email to:
                                        > JohnMuirTrail_Sidebar-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >



                                        ------------------------------------

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                                      • Swamy LLM
                                        Hi Arla, I did not get any reply for my application that I fax ed on Friday. Seems permit office is over whelmed with fax machine issues and number of
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Feb 3, 2014
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Hi Arla,
                                           
                                          I did not get any reply for my application that I fax'ed on Friday.
                                          Seems permit office is over whelmed with fax machine issues
                                           and number of applications; they could not even find my application.
                                          They told me that they are still printing several of application stored in the fax machine.
                                          So I gave up on that and reserved permit from HI - illilouette falls for 7/19 for 3...
                                          Seems these permits still available as of 2:20PM PST.

                                          rgds
                                          Swamy
                                           

                                          To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                                          From: crocov502@...
                                          Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2014 09:32:03 -0800
                                          Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Rafferty creek enry

                                           
                                          What other good/recommended options are there for entry via alternative trailheads?
                                          Since the Yosemite permit office fax didn't work all night and there phone's been busy all morning today, it's clear I need to look at all my options!

                                          Arla
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                              


                                        • Arla Hile
                                          Hey Swamy, After dialing all day (over 150 times!), I got a real person! He told me the fax machine was working intermittently, but that they should be getting
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Feb 3, 2014
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Hey Swamy,
                                            After dialing all day (over 150 times!), I got a real person! He told me the fax machine was working intermittently, but that they should be getting a new machine installed tomorrow. That was the good news. The bad news was that they're getting between 150 and 200 permit requests a day, and most of them are for the pass-through out of HI. :( 

                                            So you're getting a permit for HI - Illilouette...and then what? 

                                            He did tell me he had a couple of permits for Lyell on July 19, so I snagged those and promised if I got something else I'd cancel the Lyell permits. I could tell the poor guy felt bad for people - he was super nice and very sympathetic. 

                                            Having to start at Lyell took a little bit of the wind out of my sails. Now it's not *really* a through-hike (I know, call the wahmbulance), but I was thinking that first leg up to Tuolumne would be good for acclimating. Guess it's time to ponder the maps, consider what the options are and generally regroup. 

                                            Cheers,
                                            Arla




                                            On Monday, February 3, 2014 2:25 PM, Swamy LLM <llmswamy@...> wrote:
                                             
                                            Hi Arla,
                                             
                                            I did not get any reply for my application that I fax'ed on Friday.
                                            Seems permit office is over whelmed with fax machine issues
                                             and number of applications; they could not even find my application.
                                            They told me that they are still printing several of application stored in the fax machine.
                                            So I gave up on that and reserved permit from HI - illilouette falls for 7/19 for 3...
                                            Seems these permits still available as of 2:20PM PST.

                                            rgds
                                            Swamy
                                             

                                            To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                                            From: crocov502@...
                                            Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2014 09:32:03 -0800
                                            Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Rafferty creek enry

                                             
                                            What other good/recommended options are there for entry via alternative trailheads?
                                            Since the Yosemite permit office fax didn't work all night and there phone's been busy all morning today, it's clear I need to look at all my options!

                                            Arla
                                             
                                             
                                             
                                                



                                          • Roleigh Martin
                                            Did you look at the documents in this folder? https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/johnmuirtrail/files/Permit%20Trailhead%20Options/ ... Visit my Google Profile
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Feb 3, 2014
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                                              -------------------------------------------------
                                              Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
                                              _



                                              On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 9:32 AM, Arla Hile <crocov502@...> wrote:
                                               

                                              What other good/recommended options are there for entry via alternative trailheads?
                                              Since the Yosemite permit office fax didn't work all night and there phone's been busy all morning today, it's clear I need to look at all my options!

                                              Arla


                                              On Sunday, February 2, 2014 6:25 PM, Lori MacDonald <lorim@...> wrote:
                                              Aaah.  Gotcha.  Thanks


                                              On Feb 2, 2014, at 5:55 PM, Barbara Karagosian wrote:

                                              > Hi Lori - For the Rafferty creek option, you start your hike in Tuolumne Meadows, walk down Lyell canyon (on the JMT) to Rafferty Creek, walk up to Vogelsang High Sierra camp.  Then (probably the next day) walk down back to Lyell canyon via the Evelyn Lake trail, so you end up further down (south) of Lyell canyon than when you left it for Rafferty.  Then once back in Lyell, you’re back on the JMT, heading south.  This option means that you miss the JMT from Happy Isles up to Tuolumne Meadow, unless you do that section first on another permit.  It’s one of the easier permits to get.
                                              >
                                              > On Feb 2, 2014, at 5:42 PM, Lori MacDonald <lorim@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > I'm a newbie.  I can see Rafferty Creek/JMT junction.  But I don't understand where is the trailhead if you get a Rafferty permit. Where are you starting your hike prior to connecting with the JMT?
                                              >
                                              > On Jan 31, 2014, at 11:03 AM, Robert wrote:
                                              >
                                              >> That's good advice! I'd recommend Townsley Lake or Evelyn Lake, though the latter is a bit exposed. Makes for good star gazing though!
                                              >>
                                              >> --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@...> wrote:
                                              >>>
                                              >>> Haha Robert! I've been to Vogelsang from Merced before, then down to Lyell but not up from Lyell. I've always wanted to go back there. The confirmation email actually advises not to stay in the Vogelsang backpacker campground due to issues with the composting toilets. It suggests one of the surrounding lakes. Ewww...
                                              >>>
                                              >>>
                                              >>>
                                              >>>> On Jan 31, 2014, at 10:37 AM, "Robert" <rnperky@...> wrote:
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>> That's awesome Barbara! The first couple miles heading up the Rafferty Creek Trail are a bit un-inspiring, but once it opens up into the meadowy area the views really start getting good. The whole area around Vogelsang is pretty nice! Have a great hike and start training for that 8 day finish;) !
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>> --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@> wrote:
                                              >>>>>
                                              >>>>> Thanks Robert. I just got a permit for Rafferty so I'm excited now! Funnily, I'd requested Rafferty with a Florence Lake exit, and the email say Whitney exit. TM to Whitney in 9 days! I better get training :-)
                                              >>>>>
                                              >>>>>
                                              >>>>>
                                              >>>>>> On Jan 31, 2014, at 6:19 AM, "Robert" <rnperky@> wrote:
                                              >>>>>>
                                              >>>>>> To add a bit to this question: 1- the Rafferty Creek Trail to Vogelsang hike is a worthy detour, and would be worth checking out on its own. 2- It would be a big push for most people to actually do the whole loop and end up back on the JMT in one day, but it is very possible. 3- There are so many nice camping areas between Vogelsang and Evelyn Lake, that it is really worth it to make that your first nights destination before dropping back down into Lyell Canyon. Nice views, and good sites for camping. By camping in that area on night 1, you would be within the permit requirements as well. Lots of lakes around Vogelsang to check out as well, ( Fletcher, Townsley, Hanging Basket, ect. ).
                                              >>>>>>
                                              >>>>>> --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <cehauser1@> wrote:
                                              >>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>> Rich:
                                              >>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>> When you have a permit for a "fork in the trail" situation, like Rafferty Crek, you are supposed to camp beyond the arrow in that fork, but within the vicinity of the named destination. If you had a "Rafferty Creek to Vogelsang" permit, you need to camp beyond the Rafferty Creek arrow, but in the vicinity of Vogelsang. If instead, you hiked up Rafferty Creek, looped past Vogelsang, skirted back down to the JMT in Lyell Canyon, and spent your first night back in Lyell Canyon... a ranger would definitely frown on that. This is the same situation as one of the Illilouette Creek wilderness permit... You need to spend the first night at Illilouette Creek (beyond the arrow on the map). You must spend the first night beyond the arrow, but near the named destination.
                                              >>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>> On the other hand, once you camp your first night at the correct destination that is named on your permit, you are free to travel through the wilderness wherever you want. A lot of people's questions can be answered with this: generally speaking, you can camp at any legal campsite on the second night (and onward). The only exception is the Mt Whitney zone, and this exception:
                                              >>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>> "Hikers may not backtrack from one trailhead to another trailhead on any night of their trip (either partially or fully) unless exiting at their entry trailhead to end their wilderness trip." As an example, you cannot get a permit for "Tuolumne Meadows to Glen Aulin", hike north to Glen Aulin, spend the first night at Glen Aulin, then the next day turn south and get on the JMT at Tuolumne Meadows and hike south into Lyell Canyon and continue down the JMT. So Rich, I think your Rafferty Creek to Lyell Canyon scheme would violate this rule, since you would be "backtracking" to the Lyell Canyon trailhead. At least that is what a ranger would probably say.
                                              >>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>> Really, with these permit quota system, the rangers are trying to enforce the spirit of the law, which is to spread people out in the wilderness. It isn't a perfect system, and we all know they could make things more clear, and I know how frustrating it is for most people (myself included) but they are doing the best they can.
                                              >>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>> Chris.
                                              >>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>> ---In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <rholtzman@> wrote:
                                              >>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>> Thanks that’s good information. Regarding the Rafferty Creek option, does anyone know if there are any camping restrictions and could you hike the Rafferty Creek trail to Vogelsang and then down to Lyell Canyon and camp up Lyell Canyon all on the first day?
                                              >>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>> Rich
                                              >>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>
                                              >>>>>
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ------------------------------------
                                              >
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                                            • Robert
                                              Arla, by alternative trailheads, do you want Yosemite only entries or are you open to TH locations outside of Yosemite? I ask, because if you get a permit for
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Feb 3, 2014
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                                                Arla, by alternative trailheads, do you want Yosemite only entries or are you open to TH locations outside of Yosemite? I ask, because if you get a permit for the Virginia Lakes TH out of Bridgeport, CA your mileage is almost identical to a full JMT hike, the elevation gain is significantly less than the section from HI to Tuolumne Meadows, and you'll have much more solitude! The scenery is very nice, and it is nice 'right out of the gate'. The permits are issued by Humboldt/Toiyabe National Forest and are pretty easy to score. I believe the mileage from Virginia Lakes TH to Tuolumne Meadows is 24.8, or close to that, whereas the mileage from HI to Tuolumne Meadows is 23.5, or so miles.

                                                One could always do a 'split direction' hike as well. NOBO from Reds Meadow, take YARTS back to Mammoth, then Reds Meadow SOBO to Whitney Portal. Both permits are through Inyo National Forest, and issued through Rec.Gov and is a MUCH saner way to secure permits! You will still have to be 'on your game' as these permits also go very quick, and they issue them 6 months in advance, not the shorter 168 days like Yosemite, so your permit dates may be limited by now for what you want.

                                                I have done both methods over the years to avoid the hassles of dealing with Yosemite's process. I actually got lucky this year and got my primary Happy Ilses Merced/Sunrise Pass Though permits for 3 people by calling in! I also got my plan 'B' , back up alternate date, solo permit by calling in as well...first time ever getting one by phone, let alone 2!

                                                --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Arla Hile <crocov502@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > What other good/recommended options are there for entry via alternative trailheads?
                                                > Since the Yosemite permit office fax didn't work all night and there phone's been busy all morning today, it's clear I need to look at all my options!
                                                >
                                                > Arla
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > On Sunday, February 2, 2014 6:25 PM, Lori MacDonald <lorim@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Aaah.  Gotcha.  Thanks
                                                >
                                                > On Feb 2, 2014, at 5:55 PM, Barbara Karagosian wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > Hi Lori - For the Rafferty creek option, you start your hike in Tuolumne Meadows, walk down Lyell canyon (on the JMT) to Rafferty Creek, walk up to Vogelsang High Sierra camp.  Then (probably the next day) walk down back to Lyell canyon via the Evelyn Lake trail, so you end up further down (south) of Lyell canyon than when you left it for Rafferty.  Then once back in Lyell, you’re back on the JMT, heading south.  This option means that you miss the JMT from Happy Isles up to Tuolumne Meadow, unless you do that section first on another permit.  It’s one of the easier permits to get.
                                                > >
                                                > > On Feb 2, 2014, at 5:42 PM, Lori MacDonald <lorim@...> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > I'm a newbie.  I can see Rafferty Creek/JMT junction.  But I don't understand where is the trailhead if you get a Rafferty permit. Where are you starting your hike prior to connecting with the JMT?
                                                > >
                                                > > On Jan 31, 2014, at 11:03 AM, Robert wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > >> That's good advice! I'd recommend Townsley Lake or Evelyn Lake, though the latter is a bit exposed. Makes for good star gazing though!
                                                > >>
                                                > >> --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@> wrote:
                                                > >>>
                                                > >>> Haha Robert! I've been to Vogelsang from Merced before, then down to Lyell but not up from Lyell. I've always wanted to go back there. The confirmation email actually advises not to stay in the Vogelsang backpacker campground due to issues with the composting toilets. It suggests one of the surrounding lakes. Ewww...
                                                > >>>
                                                > >>>
                                                > >>>
                                                > >>>> On Jan 31, 2014, at 10:37 AM, "Robert" <rnperky@> wrote:
                                                > >>>>
                                                > >>>> That's awesome Barbara! The first couple miles heading up the Rafferty Creek Trail are a bit un-inspiring, but once it opens up into the meadowy area the views really start getting good. The whole area around Vogelsang is pretty nice! Have a great hike and start training for that 8 day finish;) !
                                                > >>>>
                                                > >>>> --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@> wrote:
                                                > >>>>>
                                                > >>>>> Thanks Robert. I just got a permit for Rafferty so I'm excited now! Funnily, I'd requested Rafferty with a Florence Lake exit, and the email say Whitney exit. TM to Whitney in 9 days! I better get training :-)
                                                > >>>>>
                                                > >>>>>
                                                > >>>>>
                                                > >>>>>> On Jan 31, 2014, at 6:19 AM, "Robert" <rnperky@> wrote:
                                                > >>>>>>
                                                > >>>>>> To add a bit to this question: 1- the Rafferty Creek Trail to Vogelsang hike is a worthy detour, and would be worth checking out on its own. 2- It would be a big push for most people to actually do the whole loop and end up back on the JMT in one day, but it is very possible. 3- There are so many nice camping areas between Vogelsang and Evelyn Lake, that it is really worth it to make that your first nights destination before dropping back down into Lyell Canyon. Nice views, and good sites for camping. By camping in that area on night 1, you would be within the permit requirements as well. Lots of lakes around Vogelsang to check out as well, ( Fletcher, Townsley, Hanging Basket, ect. ).
                                                > >>>>>>
                                                > >>>>>> --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <cehauser1@> wrote:
                                                > >>>>>>>
                                                > >>>>>>> Rich:
                                                > >>>>>>>
                                                > >>>>>>>
                                                > >>>>>>> When you have a permit for a "fork in the trail" situation, like Rafferty Crek, you are supposed to camp beyond the arrow in that fork, but within the vicinity of the named destination. If you had a "Rafferty Creek to Vogelsang" permit, you need to camp beyond the Rafferty Creek arrow, but in the vicinity of Vogelsang. If instead, you hiked up Rafferty Creek, looped past Vogelsang, skirted back down to the JMT in Lyell Canyon, and spent your first night back in Lyell Canyon... a ranger would definitely frown on that. This is the same situation as one of the Illilouette Creek wilderness permit... You need to spend the first night at Illilouette Creek (beyond the arrow on the map). You must spend the first night beyond the arrow, but near the named destination.
                                                > >>>>>>>
                                                > >>>>>>>
                                                > >>>>>>> On the other hand, once you camp your first night at the correct destination that is named on your permit, you are free to travel through the wilderness wherever you want. A lot of people's questions can be answered with this: generally speaking, you can camp at any legal campsite on the second night (and onward). The only exception is the Mt Whitney zone, and this exception:
                                                > >>>>>>>
                                                > >>>>>>>
                                                > >>>>>>> "Hikers may not backtrack from one trailhead to another trailhead on any night of their trip (either partially or fully) unless exiting at their entry trailhead to end their wilderness trip." As an example, you cannot get a permit for "Tuolumne Meadows to Glen Aulin", hike north to Glen Aulin, spend the first night at Glen Aulin, then the next day turn south and get on the JMT at Tuolumne Meadows and hike south into Lyell Canyon and continue down the JMT. So Rich, I think your Rafferty Creek to Lyell Canyon scheme would violate this rule, since you would be "backtracking" to the Lyell Canyon trailhead. At least that is what a ranger would probably say.
                                                > >>>>>>>
                                                > >>>>>>> Really, with these permit quota system, the rangers are trying to enforce the spirit of the law, which is to spread people out in the wilderness. It isn't a perfect system, and we all know they could make things more clear, and I know how frustrating it is for most people (myself included) but they are doing the best they can.
                                                > >>>>>>>
                                                > >>>>>>> Chris.
                                                > >>>>>>>
                                                > >>>>>>> ---In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, <rholtzman@> wrote:
                                                > >>>>>>>
                                                > >>>>>>> Thanks that’s good information. Regarding the Rafferty Creek option, does anyone know if there are any camping restrictions and could you hike the Rafferty Creek trail to Vogelsang and then down to Lyell Canyon and camp up Lyell Canyon all on the first day?
                                                > >>>>>>>
                                                > >>>>>>> Rich
                                                > >>>>>>>
                                                > >>>>>>
                                                > >>>>>>
                                                > >>>>>
                                                > >>>>
                                                > >>>>
                                                > >>>
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > ------------------------------------
                                                > >
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                                                >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > ------------------------------------
                                                > >
                                                > > Please strip out replied-to text if not necessary to your reply.  Just select the unnecessary text and delete it. Failure to strip makes it hard for our Daily Digest members to find the new postings among the repeats. For the crib sheet to take on JMT: http://tinyurl.com/JMT-Crib- Prints on 1 sheet all the essential phone numbers/addresses you'll want for all services needed on or off the trail. We encourage all to join the JohnMuirTrail_Sidebar Yahoo Group, just send a blank email to:
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                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ------------------------------------
                                                >
                                                > Please strip out replied-to text if not necessary to your reply.  Just select the unnecessary text and delete it. Failure to strip makes it hard for our Daily Digest members to find the new postings among the repeats. For the crib sheet to take on JMT: http://tinyurl.com/JMT-Crib- Prints on 1 sheet all the essential phone numbers/addresses you'll want for all services needed on or off the trail. We encourage all to join the JohnMuirTrail_Sidebar Yahoo Group, just send a blank email to:
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                                              • Arla Hile
                                                Roleigh, Thanks for that! Being new to backpacking out of Yosemite (we always go out of King s/Sequoia because I can always get a last-minute permit for
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Feb 4, 2014
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                                                  Roleigh,
                                                  Thanks for that! Being new to backpacking out of Yosemite (we always go out of King's/Sequoia because I can always get a last-minute permit for something), I had no idea that it was this hard and that a STRATEGY was required!


                                                  Robert,
                                                  I thought that, for Whitney, if you didn't get an entry permit from YOSE that you needed to enter the lottery? Not true? Good to know.
                                                  If I don't get my permit, Virginia Lakes looks perfect. Easy car shuttle set up.

                                                  Arla

                                                   
                                                   
                                                  On Monday, February 3, 2014 7:25 PM, Robert <rnperky@...> wrote:
                                                   
                                                  Arla, by alternative trailheads, do you want Yosemite only entries or are you open to TH locations outside of Yosemite? I ask, because if you get a permit for the Virginia Lakes TH out of Bridgeport, CA your mileage is almost identical to a full JMT hike, the elevation gain is significantly less than the section from HI to Tuolumne Meadows, and you'll have much more solitude! The scenery is very nice, and it is nice 'right out of the gate'. The permits are issued by Humboldt/Toiyabe National Forest and are pretty easy to score. I believe the mileage from Virginia Lakes TH to Tuolumne Meadows is 24.8, or close to that, whereas the mileage from HI to Tuolumne Meadows is 23.5, or so miles.

                                                  One could always do a 'split direction' hike as well. NOBO from Reds Meadow, take YARTS back to Mammoth, then Reds Meadow SOBO to Whitney Portal. Both permits are through Inyo National Forest, and issued through Rec.Gov and is a MUCH saner way to secure permits! You will still have to be 'on your game' as these permits also go very quick, and they issue them 6 months in advance, not the shorter 168 days like Yosemite, so your permit dates may be limited by now for what you want.

                                                  I have done both methods over the years to avoid the hassles of dealing with Yosemite's process. I actually got lucky this year and got my primary Happy Ilses Merced/Sunrise Pass Though permits for 3 people by calling in! I also got my plan 'B' , back up alternate date, solo permit by calling in as well...first time ever getting one by phone, let alone 2!




                                                • Barbara Karagosian
                                                  Whitney day hikes or overnight from the portal are lottery. Exiting Whitney from an Inyo trailhead requires an exit permit that you apply for when you request
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Feb 4, 2014
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                                                    Whitney day hikes or overnight from the portal are lottery. 

                                                    Exiting Whitney from an Inyo trailhead requires an exit permit that you apply for when you request your entry permit. There's a 25 a day reservable quota. 

                                                    Exiting Whitney from any other national park or forest doesn't require an exit permit. 



                                                    On Feb 4, 2014, at 12:53 PM, Arla Hile <crocov502@...> wrote:

                                                     

                                                    Roleigh,
                                                    Thanks for that! Being new to backpacking out of Yosemite (we always go out of King's/Sequoia because I can always get a last-minute permit for something), I had no idea that it was this hard and that a STRATEGY was required!


                                                    Robert,
                                                    I thought that, for Whitney, if you didn't get an entry permit from YOSE that you needed to enter the lottery? Not true? Good to know.
                                                    If I don't get my permit, Virginia Lakes looks perfect. Easy car shuttle set up.

                                                    Arla

                                                     
                                                     
                                                    On Monday, February 3, 2014 7:25 PM, Robert <rnperky@...> wrote:
                                                     
                                                    Arla, by alternative trailheads, do you want Yosemite only entries or are you open to TH locations outside of Yosemite? I ask, because if you get a permit for the Virginia Lakes TH out of Bridgeport, CA your mileage is almost identical to a full JMT hike, the elevation gain is significantly less than the section from HI to Tuolumne Meadows, and you'll have much more solitude! The scenery is very nice, and it is nice 'right out of the gate'. The permits are issued by Humboldt/Toiyabe National Forest and are pretty easy to score. I believe the mileage from Virginia Lakes TH to Tuolumne Meadows is 24.8, or close to that, whereas the mileage from HI to Tuolumne Meadows is 23.5, or so miles.

                                                    One could always do a 'split direction' hike as well. NOBO from Reds Meadow, take YARTS back to Mammoth, then Reds Meadow SOBO to Whitney Portal. Both permits are through Inyo National Forest, and issued through Rec.Gov and is a MUCH saner way to secure permits! You will still have to be 'on your game' as these permits also go very quick, and they issue them 6 months in advance, not the shorter 168 days like Yosemite, so your permit dates may be limited by now for what you want.

                                                    I have done both methods over the years to avoid the hassles of dealing with Yosemite's process. I actually got lucky this year and got my primary Happy Ilses Merced/Sunrise Pass Though permits for 3 people by calling in! I also got my plan 'B' , back up alternate date, solo permit by calling in as well...first time ever getting one by phone, let alone 2!




                                                  • rnperky@sbcglobal.net
                                                    Arla, to echo a bit what Barbara already mentioned, you only need to put I. For the lottery if you are starting from Whitney Portal and doing a day hike or
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Feb 4, 2014
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                                                      Arla, to echo a bit what Barbara already mentioned, you only need to put I. For the lottery if you are starting from Whitney Portal and doing a day hike or overnight hike, ( exception being the mountaineers route ). Having said that though, you would still be subject to a Whitney Trailcrest Exit Quota based on your date you anticipate exiting if your hike originates outside the Whitney Zone and a Whitney Portal exit. Last time I booked a permit from Humbold/Toiyabe National Forest for my Virginia Lakes TH start, the Trailcrest quota wasn't even a consideration for my permit, which was another bonus for using it that year! I do not know if they take into consideration the Trailcrest quota now, or not. You would have to contact them directly for any details regarding that.

                                                      --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Arla Hile <crocov502@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Roleigh,
                                                      > Thanks for that! Being new to backpacking out of Yosemite (we always go out of King's/Sequoia because I can always get a last-minute permit for something), I had no idea that it was this hard and that a STRATEGY was required!
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Robert,
                                                      > I thought that, for Whitney, if you didn't get an entry permit from YOSE that you needed to enter the lottery? Not true? Good to know.
                                                      > If I don't get my permit, Virginia Lakes looks perfect. Easy car shuttle set up.
                                                      >
                                                      > Arla
                                                      >
                                                      >  
                                                      >  
                                                      >
                                                      > On Monday, February 3, 2014 7:25 PM, Robert <rnperky@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >  
                                                      > Arla, by alternative trailheads, do you want Yosemite only entries or are you open to TH locations outside of Yosemite? I ask, because if you get a permit for the Virginia Lakes TH out of Bridgeport, CA your mileage is almost identical to a full JMT hike, the elevation gain is significantly less than the section from HI to Tuolumne Meadows, and you'll have much more solitude! The scenery is very nice, and it is nice 'right out of the gate'. The permits are issued by Humboldt/Toiyabe National Forest and are pretty easy to score. I believe the mileage from Virginia Lakes TH to Tuolumne Meadows is 24.8, or close to that, whereas the mileage from HI to Tuolumne Meadows is 23.5, or so miles.
                                                      >
                                                      > One could always do a 'split direction' hike as well. NOBO from Reds Meadow, take YARTS back to Mammoth, then Reds Meadow SOBO to Whitney Portal. Both permits are through Inyo National Forest, and issued through Rec.Gov and is a MUCH saner way to secure permits! You will still have to be 'on your game' as these permits also go very quick, and they issue them 6 months in advance, not the shorter 168 days like Yosemite, so your permit dates may be limited by now for what you want.
                                                      >
                                                      > I have done both methods over the years to avoid the hassles of dealing with Yosemite's process. I actually got lucky this year and got my primary Happy Ilses Merced/Sunrise Pass Though permits for 3 people by calling in! I also got my plan 'B' , back up alternate date, solo permit by calling in as well...first time ever getting one by phone, let alone 2!
                                                      >
                                                    • Arla Hile
                                                      I think I ll do that next time, however today I got my HI - Merced/Sunrise permit! Woo! This is the last time I ever want to deal with Yosemite permitting. 
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Feb 5, 2014
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                                                        I think I'll do that next time, however today I got my HI - Merced/Sunrise permit! Woo! This is the last time I ever want to deal with Yosemite permitting. 

                                                        Arla


                                                        On Tuesday, February 4, 2014 2:25 PM, "rnperky@..." <rnperky@...> wrote:
                                                         
                                                        Arla, to echo a bit what Barbara already mentioned, you only need to put I. For the lottery if you are starting from Whitney Portal and doing a day hike or overnight hike, ( exception being the mountaineers route ). Having said that though, you would still be subject to a Whitney Trailcrest Exit Quota based on your date you anticipate exiting if your hike originates outside the Whitney Zone and a Whitney Portal exit. Last time I booked a permit from Humbold/Toiyabe National Forest for my Virginia Lakes TH start, the Trailcrest quota wasn't even a consideration for my permit, which was another bonus for using it that year! I do not know if they take into consideration the Trailcrest quota now, or not. You would have to contact them directly for any details regarding that.

                                                        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Arla Hile <crocov502@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > Roleigh,
                                                        > Thanks for that! Being new to backpacking out of Yosemite (we always go out of King's/Sequoia because I can always get a last-minute permit for something), I had no idea that it was this hard and that a STRATEGY was required!
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Robert,
                                                        > I thought that, for Whitney, if you didn't get an entry permit from YOSE that you needed to enter the lottery? Not true? Good to know.
                                                        > If I don't get my permit, Virginia Lakes looks perfect. Easy car shuttle set up.
                                                        >
                                                        > Arla
                                                        >
                                                        >  
                                                        >  
                                                        >
                                                        > On Monday, February 3, 2014 7:25 PM, Robert <rnperky@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        >  
                                                        > Arla, by alternative trailheads, do you want Yosemite only entries or are you open to TH locations outside of Yosemite? I ask, because if you get a permit for the Virginia Lakes TH out of Bridgeport, CA your mileage is almost identical to a full JMT hike, the elevation gain is significantly less than the section from HI to Tuolumne Meadows, and you'll have much more solitude! The scenery is very nice, and it is nice 'right out of the gate'. The permits are issued by Humboldt/Toiyabe National Forest and are pretty easy to score. I believe the mileage from Virginia Lakes TH to Tuolumne Meadows is 24.8, or close to that, whereas the mileage from HI to Tuolumne Meadows is 23.5, or so miles.
                                                        >
                                                        > One could always do a 'split direction' hike as well. NOBO from Reds Meadow, take YARTS back to Mammoth, then Reds Meadow SOBO to Whitney Portal. Both permits are through Inyo National Forest, and issued through Rec.Gov and is a MUCH saner way to secure permits! You will still have to be 'on your game' as these permits also go very quick, and they issue them 6 months in advance, not the shorter 168 days like Yosemite, so your permit dates may be limited by now for what you want.
                                                        >
                                                        > I have done both methods over the years to avoid the hassles of dealing with Yosemite's process. I actually got lucky this year and got my primary Happy Ilses Merced/Sunrise Pass Though permits for 3 people by calling in! I also got my plan 'B' , back up alternate date, solo permit by calling in as well...first time ever getting one by phone, let alone 2!
                                                        >



                                                      • jimsantiagohill
                                                        I received the rejection of my permit application this morning 2/06/14 for an entry date of 7/24/14. I immediately began dialing the reservation call in
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Feb 6, 2014
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                                                          I received the rejection of my permit application this morning 2/06/14 for an entry date of 7/24/14.  I immediately began dialing the reservation call in number.  After only 74 attempts in the space of 20 minuets I got through and was able to secure a Glacier Point to Illilouette permit hooking up with the JMT on day two.

                                                          I am a newbie to the JMT and would never have known how to get this permit and understand its implications without the help of this forum.  Thanks so much for all the shared wisdom and experience.  See you on the trail.
                                                          Jim
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