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Re: [John Muir Trail] Help !!! my permit for JMT just got rejected - how can I work around this ? [1 Attachment]

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  • Ray Rippel
    Good day, Huan, I m afraid you are confusing two different constraints. You cannot accommodate more than 15 people on a permit, but that is completely
    Message 1 of 36 , Jan 3, 2014
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      Good day, Huan,

      I'm afraid you are confusing two different constraints. You cannot accommodate more than 15 people on a permit, but that is completely different than the quota for the trailhead. In fact, on the instruction sheet that accompanies the permit request form, it states, "Number in Party: Maximum group size is 15, however not all trailhead quotas will allow for a group this large."

      It is almost impossible to get a permit from HI for fifteen folks.

      Also, hiking with that many people is a bit discourteous, at least in my opinion. (Or perhaps I should say that all the groups I have met that were that large were discourteous. I shouldn't rule out the possibility that a group that large could hike responsibly).

      Good hiking, Ray
      ,_._,___

    • Roleigh Martin
      Thanks Doug! Care to get your email handle listed in our Links library by creating a link to group size maximum rule in Yose Nps? Sent from my iPhone See my
      Message 36 of 36 , Jan 4, 2014
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        Thanks Doug!  Care to get your email handle listed in our Links library by creating a link to group size maximum rule in Yose Nps?

        Sent from my iPhone
        See my Google Profile for interesting research links:
        http://tinyurl.com/3vnolh8

        On Jan 4, 2014, at 7:36 PM, "Douglas S. Aldrich" <dsa@...> wrote:

         


        Sounds like the OP apply to TH "Happy Isles to Sunrise/Merced creek pass though for 9, but the quota is only for 6 so it was denied
        "Number in Party: Maximum group size is 15, however not all trailhead quotas will allow for a group this large."

        Like he has said he can reapply for LYV with a quota of 18.  or Glacier point to Illioutte for 18 as well.

        Group Size Limits

        Day hiking group size limit: 35
        Overnight group size limit: 15
        Cross-country use group size limit (day hiking or overnight): 8



        as for group size his group size within Yosemite is fine except technically if he is going cross country(8 not 9.)  Does not say JMT but I would just print this page and take along.



        Doug





        From: "casey" <casey.cox@...>
        To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, January 4, 2014 8:25:02 AM
        Subject: [John Muir Trail] Re: Help !!! my    permit for JMT just got rejected - how can I work around this ?

         

        I would not have made the suggestion about multiple permits if I thought it to be a direct violation of the rules/law. I believe a party of nine is allowed the entire length of the JMT. When I travel in a group of eight we use multiple permits, usually two permits for four persons each. This doesn't allow us to circumvent the rules, it allows us to camp and travel further apart. It's not uncommon for our camp of eight to be spread over several hundred yards. Each others tents not even visible to each other. We don't have to find a campsite for eight, we can split up and spread the impact without the inconvenience of being 30 minutes away from a permit. Had to wait for more than a hour one time for a permit to catch up with me. Ranger did not want us to leave until the guy carrying the permit caught up with us.

        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Dittli-Goethals <johndittli@...> wrote:
        >
        > From my experience as a ranger (long ago now) and from talking to other
        > rangers more recently; it is illegal to split a group over several permits
        > if that group exceeds the maximum number. Groups such as the BSA (and I'm
        > not pointing the finger, just the facts) would commonly split permits only
        > to be found camping together during the trip. They would then be cited. If
        > a large group decides before hand to splinter and get separate permits AND
        > they NEVER congregate as one group, then there is "no foul no fine".
        >
        > This case is a bit different as the group size does not exceed 15, but it
        > does exceed the TH quota. I don't know YNP policy regarding this. It does
        > concern me if we start slipping down the slope of suggesting temporary
        > splitting of large groups to get around regulations. Large groups have more
        > impact then smaller ones, no matter how good they are, there is just no way
        > around it. When groups congregate, whether it be at the waterhole, rest
        > breaks or camp, they have impact. This is the main reason that many Parks
        > have smaller group size limits in off trail zones.
        >
        > And please, I'm not getting down on groups, I understand the need in some
        > cases and it is perfectly legal to have... 15 isn't it? Just something to
        > keep in mind.
        >
        > John D
        >
        > John D.
        >
        >
        > On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 4:31 PM, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...> wrote:
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > John,
        > >
        > > The strategy I outlined was one I used for a desired group size of 8 and
        > > the max one could reserve was for 6, so we ended up having 6 reserved from
        > > Mono Meadow - IF - WP, and 2 reserved for Glacier Point - IF - WP, but at
        > > pickup day, the two for GP - IF - WP were able to get walk-in permits to
        > > start at Mono Meadow, so we all started there.
        > >
        > > As for Casey's situation (did he want it for 12 or 10, I forget), I
        > > mentioned the rule about max number of people per camp site -- if more than
        > > the number allowed (the Rangers can remind them at pick up time, I forget,
        > > is it 8 or 10), then some of the group would have to camp at the next camp
        > > site south or north of the other -- many times they're not that far apart,
        > > perhaps 100 yards or so.
        > >
        > > but for 2 or more groups who get totally different TH entry reservations
        > > for their first night on the trail and who end up hiking the same pace and
        > > camping a 100 to 200 yards apart at each night, is that in violation of any
        > > park rule? Is that considered wrong in your eyes (that of a retired
        > > Ranger)?
        > >
        > > I'm not trying to have anyone break any rules. Just want them to know the
        > > options provided by the rules. I personally advised him to consider a
        > > single large group permit starting from Virginia Lake so as not to impact
        > > those of others who want to start in the Valley.
        > >
        > > Roleigh
        > >
        > > -------------------------------------------------
        > > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)<https://plus.google.com/104440166440169700478/about>
        > > _
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 7:23 PM, Dittli-Goethals <johndittli@...>wrote:
        > >
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> I'm still not sure I get it. I hope if the question ever arises "I have a
        > >> group of 20, how do I get a permit" this forum doesn't recommend; "just get
        > >> 4 permits"....
        > >>
        > >> John
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 4:16 PM, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...> wrote:
        > >>
        > >>>
        > >>>
        > >>> John, the pretend was for the sake of discussion of the group *size *not
        > >>> pretending to be two groups. Yes, it would be reserving for two different
        > >>> groups, but whether it is for two groups of 5 or one group of 6 and the
        > >>> other group 4, that is up for the reader to choose.
        > >>>
        > >>> -------------------------------------------------
        > >>> Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)<https://plus.google.com/104440166440169700478/about>
        > >>> _
        > >>>
        > >>>
        > >>>
        > >>> On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 7:14 PM, <johndittli@...> wrote:
        > >>>
        > >>>>
        > >>>>
        > >>>> "Pretend it is two groups" No offense intended, but this sounds rather
        > >>>> unethical. Did I miss something? Why are we encouraging this?
        > >>>>
        > >>>>
        > >>>> John D
        > >>>>
        > >>>>
        > >>>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> --
        > >> John Dittli/Leslie Goethals
        > >> John Dittli Photography
        > >> www.johndittli.com
        > >> 760-934-3505
        > >>
        > >> *Walk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trail*
        > >> *2010 IPPY Gold Medal Award Winner*
        > >> http://johndittli.com/site/content/view/57/48/
        > >>
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > John Dittli/Leslie Goethals
        > John Dittli Photography
        > www.johndittli.com
        > 760-934-3505
        >
        > *Walk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trail*
        > *2010 IPPY Gold Medal Award Winner*
        > http://johndittli.com/site/content/view/57/48/
        >


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