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Re: [John Muir Trail] Water decision: Sawyer Squeeze or Aquatabs?

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  • Roleigh Martin
    Do you have the link, what is the wait time for very cold but clean water, for chlorine dioxide tablets? JMT water is typically quite cold. ... Visit my
    Message 1 of 24 , Aug 23 11:54 AM
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      Do you have the link, what is the wait time for very cold but clean water, for chlorine dioxide tablets?  JMT water is typically quite cold.

      -------------------------------------------------
      Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
      _



      On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 2:49 PM, longritchie <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      "This newer product works in 30 minutes versus the worst case wait for the chlorine dioxide tablets of 4 hours (but only 20 minutes if you pre-filter with a 1 micron absolute filter for Giardia and Cypto."

      For their Micropur MP1 chlorine dioxide tablets Katadyn claims a 15 min wait for viruses and bacteria and only 30 min wait for Giardia and Crypto in typical conditions. The 4 hour wait applies only to Giardia and Crypto in cold and dirty water.

      Aquatabs require 30 minutes for viruses, bacteria and Giardia. It is ineffective against Crypto.

      Potable Aqua (iodine) tablets require 30 minutes for viruses, bacteria and Giardia. It is ineffective against Crypto.


      --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...> wrote:
      >
      > A relevant interesting thread spanning years is here:
      > http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=19236&disable_pagination=1
      >
      > I posted this comment in this thread in the last 2 weeks:
      >
      > Aquatabs are not chemically the same thing [as Chlorine Dioxide]. From
      > their web site: "They are effervescent (self-dissolving) tablets, the US
      > EPA approved active ingredient is NaDCC which is also known as Sodium
      > Dichloroisocyanurate or Troclosene Sodium."
      >
      > While Portable Aqua has Potable Aqua Chlorine Dioxide Water Purification
      > Tablets and its active ingredients is clorine dioxide tablets.
      >
      > See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_dioxide -- lots of references,
      > etc. on this.
      >
      > See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_dichloroisocyanurate -- this is so
      > new, hardly any information exists.
      >
      > I did find these two references at cdc.gov:
      >
      > Lantagne DS, Cardinali F, Blount BC. Disinfection by-product formation and
      > mitigation strategies in point-of-use chlorination with sodium
      > dichloroisocyanurate in Tanzania. Am J Trop Med Hyg. 2010;Jul 83(1):135-43.
      > Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20595492
      >
      > Jain S, Sahanoon OK, Blanton E, Schmitz A, Wannemuehler KA, Hoekstra RM,
      > Quick RE. Sodium dichloroisocyanurate tablets for routine treatment of
      > household drinking water in periurban Ghana: a randomized controlled trial.
      > Am J Trop Med Hyg. 2010;Jan 82(1):16-22. Link:
      > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20064989
      >
      > This newer product works in 30 minutes versus the worst case wait for the
      > chlorine dioxide tablets of 4 hours (but only 20 minutes if you pre-filter
      > with a 1 micron absolute filter for Giardia and Cypto. I like the .5 micron
      > nominal filter for $4 that weighs 1 oz from DudaDiesel.com (use a wire
      > clipper to remove the steel ring at top to get weight down to 1 oz).
      >
      > http://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=PTFEP3S
      >
      > I'd like to hear from more educated, chemically and biochemically,
      > medically, about this newer chemical form.
      >
      > I believe though this newer chemical is the cause for the one product no
      > longer being distributed. REI has switched to this newer chemical:
      >
      > http://www.rei.com/product/849795/msr-aquatabs-water-purification-tablets
      >
      >
      >
      > -------------------------------------------------
      > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
      > links)<https://plus.google.com/104440166440169700478/about>
      > _
      >
      >
      >
      > On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 1:00 PM, straw_marmot <ralphbge@...> wrote:
      >
      > > **

      > >
      > >
      > > Ok, I know we've done water many times before, but I'm coming to a
      > > decision point, and I've realized (to my surprise) that I'm switching to
      > > Aquatabs. Am I missing anything here?
      > >
      > > Ease of use / Time.
      > > Popping a tab in a bottle and shaking beats any filter. Getting out the
      > > filter and messing around inevitably takes 10 minutes. Refilling multiple
      > > times a day, this adds up to a significant chunk of time. You don't waste
      > > any hiking time with tabs, but you do have to wait 30 minutes to drink the
      > > water.
      > >
      > > Weight.
      > > Squeeze + pouch + syringe add up to 6oz.
      > > Tabs = zero weight (since I carry tabs as a backup anyway).
      > > But maybe the 30min delay means you carry slightly more water? Not sure.
      > >
      > > Water quality.
      > > Filter won't get viruses. Chlorine won't get some Cryptosporidium.
      > >
      > > So, overall, I think everything is more or less equal --- except the ease
      > > of use and wasting time element. On a hike like JMT where you're aiming to
      > > carry very little water and refill 4 or 5 times a day, I just don't want to
      > > be messing around with the filter over and over again.
      > >
      > > Any thoughts?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >


    • straw_marmot
      I m wary of comparing these claims across manufacturers. There are no consistent standards of measurement. The only thing that really means much to me is
      Message 2 of 24 , Aug 23 12:04 PM
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        I'm wary of comparing these claims across manufacturers. There are no consistent standards of measurement. The only thing that really means much to me is something like a WHO study that really tests products side by side.

        The issue with Crypto is that some strains (by no means all) have evolved resistance to chlorine. I'm skeptical of a claim that ClO2 is effective against a resistant strain where Aquatabs are not.


        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, longritchie <no_reply@...> wrote:
        >
        > "This newer product works in 30 minutes versus the worst case wait for the chlorine dioxide tablets of 4 hours (but only 20 minutes if you pre-filter with a 1 micron absolute filter for Giardia and Cypto."
        >
        > For their Micropur MP1 chlorine dioxide tablets Katadyn claims a 15 min wait for viruses and bacteria and only 30 min wait for Giardia and Crypto in typical conditions. The 4 hour wait applies only to Giardia and Crypto in cold and dirty water.
        >
        > Aquatabs require 30 minutes for viruses, bacteria and Giardia. It is ineffective against Crypto.
        >
        > Potable Aqua (iodine) tablets require 30 minutes for viruses, bacteria and Giardia. It is ineffective against Crypto.
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@> wrote:
        > >
        > > A relevant interesting thread spanning years is here:
        > > http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=19236&disable_pagination=1
        > >
        > > I posted this comment in this thread in the last 2 weeks:
        > >
        > > Aquatabs are not chemically the same thing [as Chlorine Dioxide]. From
        > > their web site: "They are effervescent (self-dissolving) tablets, the US
        > > EPA approved active ingredient is NaDCC which is also known as Sodium
        > > Dichloroisocyanurate or Troclosene Sodium."
        > >
        > > While Portable Aqua has Potable Aqua Chlorine Dioxide Water Purification
        > > Tablets and its active ingredients is clorine dioxide tablets.
        > >
        > > See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_dioxide -- lots of references,
        > > etc. on this.
        > >
        > > See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_dichloroisocyanurate -- this is so
        > > new, hardly any information exists.
        > >
        > > I did find these two references at cdc.gov:
        > >
        > > Lantagne DS, Cardinali F, Blount BC. Disinfection by-product formation and
        > > mitigation strategies in point-of-use chlorination with sodium
        > > dichloroisocyanurate in Tanzania. Am J Trop Med Hyg. 2010;Jul 83(1):135-43.
        > > Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20595492
        > >
        > > Jain S, Sahanoon OK, Blanton E, Schmitz A, Wannemuehler KA, Hoekstra RM,
        > > Quick RE. Sodium dichloroisocyanurate tablets for routine treatment of
        > > household drinking water in periurban Ghana: a randomized controlled trial.
        > > Am J Trop Med Hyg. 2010;Jan 82(1):16-22. Link:
        > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20064989
        > >
        > > This newer product works in 30 minutes versus the worst case wait for the
        > > chlorine dioxide tablets of 4 hours (but only 20 minutes if you pre-filter
        > > with a 1 micron absolute filter for Giardia and Cypto. I like the .5 micron
        > > nominal filter for $4 that weighs 1 oz from DudaDiesel.com (use a wire
        > > clipper to remove the steel ring at top to get weight down to 1 oz).
        > >
        > > http://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=PTFEP3S
        > >
        > > I'd like to hear from more educated, chemically and biochemically,
        > > medically, about this newer chemical form.
        > >
        > > I believe though this newer chemical is the cause for the one product no
        > > longer being distributed. REI has switched to this newer chemical:
        > >
        > > http://www.rei.com/product/849795/msr-aquatabs-water-purification-tablets
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > -------------------------------------------------
        > > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
        > > links)<https://plus.google.com/104440166440169700478/about>
        > > _
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 1:00 PM, straw_marmot <ralphbge@> wrote:
        > >
        > > > **
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Ok, I know we've done water many times before, but I'm coming to a
        > > > decision point, and I've realized (to my surprise) that I'm switching to
        > > > Aquatabs. Am I missing anything here?
        > > >
        > > > Ease of use / Time.
        > > > Popping a tab in a bottle and shaking beats any filter. Getting out the
        > > > filter and messing around inevitably takes 10 minutes. Refilling multiple
        > > > times a day, this adds up to a significant chunk of time. You don't waste
        > > > any hiking time with tabs, but you do have to wait 30 minutes to drink the
        > > > water.
        > > >
        > > > Weight.
        > > > Squeeze + pouch + syringe add up to 6oz.
        > > > Tabs = zero weight (since I carry tabs as a backup anyway).
        > > > But maybe the 30min delay means you carry slightly more water? Not sure.
        > > >
        > > > Water quality.
        > > > Filter won't get viruses. Chlorine won't get some Cryptosporidium.
        > > >
        > > > So, overall, I think everything is more or less equal --- except the ease
        > > > of use and wasting time element. On a hike like JMT where you're aiming to
        > > > carry very little water and refill 4 or 5 times a day, I just don't want to
        > > > be messing around with the filter over and over again.
        > > >
        > > > Any thoughts?
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • straw_marmot
        One thing to add that we do know for sure with all these chemical methods - warmer is better (all chemical reactions speed up), light/UV exposure is bad
        Message 3 of 24 , Aug 23 12:08 PM
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          One thing to add that we do know for sure with all these chemical methods - warmer is better (all chemical reactions speed up), light/UV exposure is bad (destroys Chlorine activity). So other things being equal, you'll get a better result with any chemical method by letting your water warm in the sun in an opaque container.



          --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...> wrote:
          >
          > Do you have the link, what is the wait time for very cold but clean water,
          > for chlorine dioxide tablets? JMT water is typically quite cold.
          >
          > -------------------------------------------------
          > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
          > links)<https://plus.google.com/104440166440169700478/about>
          > _
          >
          >
          >
          > On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 2:49 PM, longritchie <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > > "This newer product works in 30 minutes versus the worst case wait for the
          > > chlorine dioxide tablets of 4 hours (but only 20 minutes if you pre-filter
          > > with a 1 micron absolute filter for Giardia and Cypto."
          > >
          > > For their Micropur MP1 chlorine dioxide tablets Katadyn claims a 15 min
          > > wait for viruses and bacteria and only 30 min wait for Giardia and Crypto
          > > in typical conditions. The 4 hour wait applies only to Giardia and Crypto
          > > in cold and dirty water.
          > >
          > > Aquatabs require 30 minutes for viruses, bacteria and Giardia. It is
          > > ineffective against Crypto.
          > >
          > > Potable Aqua (iodine) tablets require 30 minutes for viruses, bacteria and
          > > Giardia. It is ineffective against Crypto.
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > A relevant interesting thread spanning years is here:
          > > >
          > > http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=19236&disable_pagination=1
          > > >
          > > > I posted this comment in this thread in the last 2 weeks:
          > > >
          > > > Aquatabs are not chemically the same thing [as Chlorine Dioxide]. From
          > > > their web site: "They are effervescent (self-dissolving) tablets, the US
          > > > EPA approved active ingredient is NaDCC which is also known as Sodium
          > > > Dichloroisocyanurate or Troclosene Sodium."
          > > >
          > > > While Portable Aqua has Potable Aqua Chlorine Dioxide Water Purification
          > > > Tablets and its active ingredients is clorine dioxide tablets.
          > > >
          > > > See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_dioxide -- lots of references,
          > > > etc. on this.
          > > >
          > > > See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_dichloroisocyanurate -- this is
          > > so
          > > > new, hardly any information exists.
          > > >
          > > > I did find these two references at cdc.gov:
          > > >
          > > > Lantagne DS, Cardinali F, Blount BC. Disinfection by-product formation
          > > and
          > > > mitigation strategies in point-of-use chlorination with sodium
          > > > dichloroisocyanurate in Tanzania. Am J Trop Med Hyg. 2010;Jul
          > > 83(1):135-43.
          > > > Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20595492
          > > >
          > > > Jain S, Sahanoon OK, Blanton E, Schmitz A, Wannemuehler KA, Hoekstra RM,
          > > > Quick RE. Sodium dichloroisocyanurate tablets for routine treatment of
          > > > household drinking water in periurban Ghana: a randomized controlled
          > > trial.
          > > > Am J Trop Med Hyg. 2010;Jan 82(1):16-22. Link:
          > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20064989
          > > >
          > > > This newer product works in 30 minutes versus the worst case wait for the
          > > > chlorine dioxide tablets of 4 hours (but only 20 minutes if you
          > > pre-filter
          > > > with a 1 micron absolute filter for Giardia and Cypto. I like the .5
          > > micron
          > > > nominal filter for $4 that weighs 1 oz from DudaDiesel.com (use a wire
          > > > clipper to remove the steel ring at top to get weight down to 1 oz).
          > > >
          > > > http://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=PTFEP3S
          > > >
          > > > I'd like to hear from more educated, chemically and biochemically,
          > > > medically, about this newer chemical form.
          > > >
          > > > I believe though this newer chemical is the cause for the one product no
          > > > longer being distributed. REI has switched to this newer chemical:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > http://www.rei.com/product/849795/msr-aquatabs-water-purification-tablets
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > -------------------------------------------------
          > > > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
          > > > links)<https://plus.google.com/104440166440169700478/about>
          > > > _
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 1:00 PM, straw_marmot <ralphbge@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > > **
          > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Ok, I know we've done water many times before, but I'm coming to a
          > > > > decision point, and I've realized (to my surprise) that I'm switching
          > > to
          > > > > Aquatabs. Am I missing anything here?
          > > > >
          > > > > Ease of use / Time.
          > > > > Popping a tab in a bottle and shaking beats any filter. Getting out the
          > > > > filter and messing around inevitably takes 10 minutes. Refilling
          > > multiple
          > > > > times a day, this adds up to a significant chunk of time. You don't
          > > waste
          > > > > any hiking time with tabs, but you do have to wait 30 minutes to drink
          > > the
          > > > > water.
          > > > >
          > > > > Weight.
          > > > > Squeeze + pouch + syringe add up to 6oz.
          > > > > Tabs = zero weight (since I carry tabs as a backup anyway).
          > > > > But maybe the 30min delay means you carry slightly more water? Not
          > > sure.
          > > > >
          > > > > Water quality.
          > > > > Filter won't get viruses. Chlorine won't get some Cryptosporidium.
          > > > >
          > > > > So, overall, I think everything is more or less equal --- except the
          > > ease
          > > > > of use and wasting time element. On a hike like JMT where you're
          > > aiming to
          > > > > carry very little water and refill 4 or 5 times a day, I just don't
          > > want to
          > > > > be messing around with the filter over and over again.
          > > > >
          > > > > Any thoughts?
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
        • straw_marmot
          I took out the steel rim, soaked it thoroughly, squeezed out as much as I could, then left it on my kitchen table for 24hours, averagely humid conditions
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 23 12:16 PM
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            I took out the steel rim, soaked it thoroughly, squeezed out as much as I could, then left it on my kitchen table for 24hours, averagely humid conditions (maybe 60%). I found it had barely dried at all - can't remember the exact weight, but it was a fair bit, I think I remember 5oz.

            --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...> wrote:
            >
            > Ralph,
            >
            > Interesting question you ask, what is the weight of a wet DudaDiesel .5
            > micron filter? I'll get back to you on that. I'm at work now.
            >
            > Anyway, the filter comes with a strap and you can hang it out to dry at
            > night (just don't forget to repack it in the morning though!--happened to
            > me once).
            >
            > To keep it from getting too dirty, I put it in a quart ziplock bag.
            >
            > Even if it gets dirty, it can be washed like laundry and I've done that.
            > At the end of the JMT, I throw mine away though (it's only $4).
            >
            > I count to two (one thousand one, one thousand two) when using the filter
            > as a water scoop, to ensure that the water being poured into the target
            > container has been pre-filtered (versus dripping from outside the filter
            > because of using the filter as a water scoop).
            >
            > Personally, if I was forced at gunpoint to only bring one thing on the JMT
            > for water treatment, the DudaDiesel .5 micron filter would be it. I'd
            > follow the rules for drinking unfiltered water and use it, knowing that it
            > reduces my chances for getting Giardia and Crypto to nearly zero over 100+
            > years of drinking unfiltered water on the JMT (it seems like those who do
            > drink unfiltered water on the JMT sometimes get it after a decade or so of
            > drinking it unfiltered). The problem with the Steripen and other filters
            > (that go down to .01 or .02 micron) is they can get clogged to the point of
            > not being field-maintainable or with the Steripen it can electronically
            > fail -- nothing is 100% foolproof, although I think the Steripen is far
            > more reliable than any .01/.02 micron filter I've ever used for multi-week
            > use. The problem with the tablets is that once consumed you're out of them
            > and without the pre-filter one has to wait so long (unless one uses the
            > newer Aquatabs which I'm still not sold on 100%, I find the research so few
            > compared to chlorine dioxide tablets).
            >
            > but I'm not forced at gunpoint which is why I use all three (Pre-Filter
            > Dudadiesel filter, Steripen, Tablets--and using the pre-filter with both).
            > I don't use all three at once, it's either the Steripen or the tablets
            > depending on how tired and lazy I am and whether I want pure-tasting water
            > or don't care about the slight tap-water taste (due to using the tablets).
            > At supper time, I don't care.
            >
            > Roleigh
            >
            >
            > -------------------------------------------------
            > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
            > links)<https://plus.google.com/104440166440169700478/about>
            > _
            >
            >
            >
            > On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 2:00 PM, straw_marmot <ralphbge@...> wrote:
            >
            > > **
            > >
            > >
            > > Thanks Roleigh.
            > >
            > > Chemical composition: the data show that Sodium Dichloroisocyanurate (i.e.
            > > Aquatabs) is more effective that Chlorine Dioxide. From my reading, this is
            > > based only on empirical data on water purity post-treatment, I have not
            > > seen any research on the actual mechanism. All of these compounds release
            > > free chorine into the water, but there must be other effects, since the ppm
            > > free chlorine (easily measured) is similar with various compounds. I was
            > > slightly concerned that the Aquatabs manufacturers might just be using less
            > > stringent purity criteria in their 30 minute claim, so I don't know that
            > > it's quite so dramatically better than Chlorine Dioxide, but it is
            > > certainly better.
            > >
            > > The dudadiesel filter: I ordered one on your recommendation. But... it's a
            > > material like felt that absorbs a huge amount of water and takes days to
            > > dry, so a practical weight of more like 5oz, don't you think? Or do you cut
            > > it down to a much smaller size? And I felt that such a wet spongy thing
            > > would pick up dirt and dust and get conatminated pretty easily.
            > >
            > > Ralph
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > A relevant interesting thread spanning years is here:
            > > >
            > > http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=19236&disable_pagination=1
            > > >
            > > > I posted this comment in this thread in the last 2 weeks:
            > > >
            > > > Aquatabs are not chemically the same thing [as Chlorine Dioxide]. From
            > > > their web site: "They are effervescent (self-dissolving) tablets, the US
            > > > EPA approved active ingredient is NaDCC which is also known as Sodium
            > > > Dichloroisocyanurate or Troclosene Sodium."
            > > >
            > > > While Portable Aqua has Potable Aqua Chlorine Dioxide Water Purification
            > > > Tablets and its active ingredients is clorine dioxide tablets.
            > > >
            > > > See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_dioxide -- lots of references,
            > > > etc. on this.
            > > >
            > > > See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_dichloroisocyanurate -- this is
            > > so
            > > > new, hardly any information exists.
            > > >
            > > > I did find these two references at cdc.gov:
            > > >
            > > > Lantagne DS, Cardinali F, Blount BC. Disinfection by-product formation
            > > and
            > > > mitigation strategies in point-of-use chlorination with sodium
            > > > dichloroisocyanurate in Tanzania. Am J Trop Med Hyg. 2010;Jul
            > > 83(1):135-43.
            > > > Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20595492
            > > >
            > > > Jain S, Sahanoon OK, Blanton E, Schmitz A, Wannemuehler KA, Hoekstra RM,
            > > > Quick RE. Sodium dichloroisocyanurate tablets for routine treatment of
            > > > household drinking water in periurban Ghana: a randomized controlled
            > > trial.
            > > > Am J Trop Med Hyg. 2010;Jan 82(1):16-22. Link:
            > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20064989
            > > >
            > > > This newer product works in 30 minutes versus the worst case wait for the
            > > > chlorine dioxide tablets of 4 hours (but only 20 minutes if you
            > > pre-filter
            > > > with a 1 micron absolute filter for Giardia and Cypto. I like the .5
            > > micron
            > > > nominal filter for $4 that weighs 1 oz from DudaDiesel.com (use a wire
            > > > clipper to remove the steel ring at top to get weight down to 1 oz).
            > > >
            > > > http://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=PTFEP3S
            > > >
            > > > I'd like to hear from more educated, chemically and biochemically,
            > > > medically, about this newer chemical form.
            > > >
            > > > I believe though this newer chemical is the cause for the one product no
            > > > longer being distributed. REI has switched to this newer chemical:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > http://www.rei.com/product/849795/msr-aquatabs-water-purification-tablets
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > -------------------------------------------------
            > > > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
            > > > links)<https://plus.google.com/104440166440169700478/about>
            > > > _
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 1:00 PM, straw_marmot <ralphbge@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > > **
            > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Ok, I know we've done water many times before, but I'm coming to a
            > > > > decision point, and I've realized (to my surprise) that I'm switching
            > > to
            > > > > Aquatabs. Am I missing anything here?
            > > > >
            > > > > Ease of use / Time.
            > > > > Popping a tab in a bottle and shaking beats any filter. Getting out the
            > > > > filter and messing around inevitably takes 10 minutes. Refilling
            > > multiple
            > > > > times a day, this adds up to a significant chunk of time. You don't
            > > waste
            > > > > any hiking time with tabs, but you do have to wait 30 minutes to drink
            > > the
            > > > > water.
            > > > >
            > > > > Weight.
            > > > > Squeeze + pouch + syringe add up to 6oz.
            > > > > Tabs = zero weight (since I carry tabs as a backup anyway).
            > > > > But maybe the 30min delay means you carry slightly more water? Not
            > > sure.
            > > > >
            > > > > Water quality.
            > > > > Filter won't get viruses. Chlorine won't get some Cryptosporidium.
            > > > >
            > > > > So, overall, I think everything is more or less equal --- except the
            > > ease
            > > > > of use and wasting time element. On a hike like JMT where you're
            > > aiming to
            > > > > carry very little water and refill 4 or 5 times a day, I just don't
            > > want to
            > > > > be messing around with the filter over and over again.
            > > > >
            > > > > Any thoughts?
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Roleigh Martin
            A good page to read on Crypto and water filtration is here http://www.cdc.gov/parasites/crypto/gen_info/filters.html Sure wish I knew if a 1/2 micron nominal
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 23 12:20 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              A good page to read on Crypto and water filtration is here

              Sure wish I knew if a 1/2 micron nominal rated filter equals a 1 micron absolute rated filter.  I'll ask DudaDiesel if they know the answer.


              -------------------------------------------------
              Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
              _



              On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 3:04 PM, straw_marmot <ralphbge@...> wrote:
               

              I'm wary of comparing these claims across manufacturers. There are no consistent standards of measurement. The only thing that really means much to me is something like a WHO study that really tests products side by side.

              The issue with Crypto is that some strains (by no means all) have evolved resistance to chlorine. I'm skeptical of a claim that ClO2 is effective against a resistant strain where Aquatabs are not.


            • longritchie
              No link. I just reported what I could find. Katadyn has a table with two types of water: warm & clean vs. cold & dirty. I m sure the other two (Aquatabs and PA
              Message 6 of 24 , Aug 23 12:21 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                No link. I just reported what I could find. Katadyn has a table with two types of water: warm & clean vs. cold & dirty. I'm sure the other two (Aquatabs and PA iodine) also are affected by the water clarity and temperature but I don't know to what extent.


                --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...> wrote:
                >
                > Do you have the link, what is the wait time for very cold but clean water,
                > for chlorine dioxide tablets? JMT water is typically quite cold.
                >
                > -------------------------------------------------
                > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
                > links)<https://plus.google.com/104440166440169700478/about>
                > _
                >
                >
                >
                > On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 2:49 PM, longritchie <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>wrote:
                >
                > > **
                > >
                > >
                > > "This newer product works in 30 minutes versus the worst case wait for the
                > > chlorine dioxide tablets of 4 hours (but only 20 minutes if you pre-filter
                > > with a 1 micron absolute filter for Giardia and Cypto."
                > >
                > > For their Micropur MP1 chlorine dioxide tablets Katadyn claims a 15 min
                > > wait for viruses and bacteria and only 30 min wait for Giardia and Crypto
                > > in typical conditions. The 4 hour wait applies only to Giardia and Crypto
                > > in cold and dirty water.
                > >
                > > Aquatabs require 30 minutes for viruses, bacteria and Giardia. It is
                > > ineffective against Crypto.
                > >
                > > Potable Aqua (iodine) tablets require 30 minutes for viruses, bacteria and
                > > Giardia. It is ineffective against Crypto.
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > A relevant interesting thread spanning years is here:
                > > >
                > > http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=19236&disable_pagination=1
                > > >
                > > > I posted this comment in this thread in the last 2 weeks:
                > > >
                > > > Aquatabs are not chemically the same thing [as Chlorine Dioxide]. From
                > > > their web site: "They are effervescent (self-dissolving) tablets, the US
                > > > EPA approved active ingredient is NaDCC which is also known as Sodium
                > > > Dichloroisocyanurate or Troclosene Sodium."
                > > >
                > > > While Portable Aqua has Potable Aqua Chlorine Dioxide Water Purification
                > > > Tablets and its active ingredients is clorine dioxide tablets.
                > > >
                > > > See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_dioxide -- lots of references,
                > > > etc. on this.
                > > >
                > > > See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_dichloroisocyanurate -- this is
                > > so
                > > > new, hardly any information exists.
                > > >
                > > > I did find these two references at cdc.gov:
                > > >
                > > > Lantagne DS, Cardinali F, Blount BC. Disinfection by-product formation
                > > and
                > > > mitigation strategies in point-of-use chlorination with sodium
                > > > dichloroisocyanurate in Tanzania. Am J Trop Med Hyg. 2010;Jul
                > > 83(1):135-43.
                > > > Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20595492
                > > >
                > > > Jain S, Sahanoon OK, Blanton E, Schmitz A, Wannemuehler KA, Hoekstra RM,
                > > > Quick RE. Sodium dichloroisocyanurate tablets for routine treatment of
                > > > household drinking water in periurban Ghana: a randomized controlled
                > > trial.
                > > > Am J Trop Med Hyg. 2010;Jan 82(1):16-22. Link:
                > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20064989
                > > >
                > > > This newer product works in 30 minutes versus the worst case wait for the
                > > > chlorine dioxide tablets of 4 hours (but only 20 minutes if you
                > > pre-filter
                > > > with a 1 micron absolute filter for Giardia and Cypto. I like the .5
                > > micron
                > > > nominal filter for $4 that weighs 1 oz from DudaDiesel.com (use a wire
                > > > clipper to remove the steel ring at top to get weight down to 1 oz).
                > > >
                > > > http://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=PTFEP3S
                > > >
                > > > I'd like to hear from more educated, chemically and biochemically,
                > > > medically, about this newer chemical form.
                > > >
                > > > I believe though this newer chemical is the cause for the one product no
                > > > longer being distributed. REI has switched to this newer chemical:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > http://www.rei.com/product/849795/msr-aquatabs-water-purification-tablets
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > -------------------------------------------------
                > > > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
                > > > links)<https://plus.google.com/104440166440169700478/about>
                > > > _
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 1:00 PM, straw_marmot <ralphbge@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > > **
                > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Ok, I know we've done water many times before, but I'm coming to a
                > > > > decision point, and I've realized (to my surprise) that I'm switching
                > > to
                > > > > Aquatabs. Am I missing anything here?
                > > > >
                > > > > Ease of use / Time.
                > > > > Popping a tab in a bottle and shaking beats any filter. Getting out the
                > > > > filter and messing around inevitably takes 10 minutes. Refilling
                > > multiple
                > > > > times a day, this adds up to a significant chunk of time. You don't
                > > waste
                > > > > any hiking time with tabs, but you do have to wait 30 minutes to drink
                > > the
                > > > > water.
                > > > >
                > > > > Weight.
                > > > > Squeeze + pouch + syringe add up to 6oz.
                > > > > Tabs = zero weight (since I carry tabs as a backup anyway).
                > > > > But maybe the 30min delay means you carry slightly more water? Not
                > > sure.
                > > > >
                > > > > Water quality.
                > > > > Filter won't get viruses. Chlorine won't get some Cryptosporidium.
                > > > >
                > > > > So, overall, I think everything is more or less equal --- except the
                > > ease
                > > > > of use and wasting time element. On a hike like JMT where you're
                > > aiming to
                > > > > carry very little water and refill 4 or 5 times a day, I just don't
                > > want to
                > > > > be messing around with the filter over and over again.
                > > > >
                > > > > Any thoughts?
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • Bill Heiser
                I d also suggest this excellent article series by Bill S on Trailspace.com for thorough discussion on the topic of water filtration and treatment.
                Message 7 of 24 , Aug 23 12:36 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  I'd also suggest this excellent article series by Bill S on Trailspace.com for thorough discussion on the topic of water filtration and treatment.

                  http://www.trailspace.com/articles/backcountry-water-treatment-part-1-hydration.html

                  August 23, 2013 12:20 PM
                   
                  A good page to read on Crypto and water filtration is here

                  Sure wish I knew if a 1/2 micron nominal rated filter equals a 1 micron absolute rated filter.  I'll ask DudaDiesel if they know the answer.


                  -------------------------------------------------
                  Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
                  _



                  August 23, 2013 12:04 PM
                   

                  I'm wary of comparing these claims across manufacturers. There are no consistent standards of measurement. The only thing that really means much to me is something like a WHO study that really tests products side by side.

                  The issue with Crypto is that some strains (by no means all) have evolved resistance to chlorine. I'm skeptical of a claim that ClO2 is effective against a resistant strain where Aquatabs are not.


                  --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, longritchie <no_reply@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > "This newer product works in 30 minutes versus the worst case wait for the chlorine dioxide tablets of 4 hours (but only 20 minutes if you pre-filter with a 1 micron absolute filter for Giardia and Cypto."
                  >
                  > For their Micropur MP1 chlorine dioxide tablets Katadyn claims a 15 min wait for viruses and bacteria and only 30 min wait for Giardia and Crypto in typical conditions. The 4 hour wait applies only to Giardia and Crypto in cold and dirty water.
                  >
                  > Aquatabs require 30 minutes for viruses, bacteria and Giardia. It is ineffective against Crypto.
                  >
                  > Potable Aqua (iodine) tablets require 30 minutes for viruses, bacteria and Giardia. It is ineffective against Crypto.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > A relevant interesting thread spanning years is here:
                  > > http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=19236&disable_pagination=1
                  > >
                  > > I posted this comment in this thread in the last 2 weeks:
                  > >
                  > > Aquatabs are not chemically the same thing [as Chlorine Dioxide]. From
                  > > their web site: "They are effervescent (self-dissolving) tablets, the US
                  > > EPA approved active ingredient is NaDCC which is also known as Sodium
                  > > Dichloroisocyanurate or Troclosene Sodium."
                  > >
                  > > While Portable Aqua has Potable Aqua Chlorine Dioxide Water Purification
                  > > Tablets and its active ingredients is clorine dioxide tablets.
                  > >
                  > > See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_dioxide -- lots of references,
                  > > etc. on this.
                  > >
                  > > See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_dichloroisocyanurate -- this is so
                  > > new, hardly any information exists.
                  > >
                  > > I did find these two references at cdc.gov:
                  > >
                  > > Lantagne DS, Cardinali F, Blount BC. Disinfection by-product formation and
                  > > mitigation strategies in point-of-use chlorination with sodium
                  > > dichloroisocyanurate in Tanzania. Am J Trop Med Hyg. 2010;Jul 83(1):135-43.
                  > > Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20595492
                  > >
                  > > Jain S, Sahanoon OK, Blanton E, Schmitz A, Wannemuehler KA, Hoekstra RM,
                  > > Quick RE. Sodium dichloroisocyanurate tablets for routine treatment of
                  > > household drinking water in periurban Ghana: a randomized controlled trial.
                  > > Am J Trop Med Hyg. 2010;Jan 82(1):16-22. Link:
                  > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20064989
                  > >
                  > > This newer product works in 30 minutes versus the worst case wait for the
                  > > chlorine dioxide tablets of 4 hours (but only 20 minutes if you pre-filter
                  > > with a 1 micron absolute filter for Giardia and Cypto. I like the .5 micron
                  > > nominal filter for $4 that weighs 1 oz from DudaDiesel.com (use a wire
                  > > clipper to remove the steel ring at top to get weight down to 1 oz).
                  > >
                  > > http://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=PTFEP3S
                  > >
                  > > I'd like to hear from more educated, chemically and biochemically,
                  > > medically, about this newer chemical form.
                  > >
                  > > I believe though this newer chemical is the cause for the one product no
                  > > longer being distributed. REI has switched to this newer chemical:
                  > >
                  > > http://www.rei.com/product/849795/msr-aquatabs-water-purification-tablets
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -------------------------------------------------
                  > > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
                  > > links)<https://plus.google.com/104440166440169700478/about>
                  > > _
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 1:00 PM, straw_marmot <ralphbge@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > **
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Ok, I know we've done water many times before, but I'm coming to a
                  > > > decision point, and I've realized (to my surprise) that I'm switching to
                  > > > Aquatabs. Am I missing anything here?
                  > > >
                  > > > Ease of use / Time.
                  > > > Popping a tab in a bottle and shaking beats any filter. Getting out the
                  > > > filter and messing around inevitably takes 10 minutes. Refilling multiple
                  > > > times a day, this adds up to a significant chunk of time. You don't waste
                  > > > any hiking time with tabs, but you do have to wait 30 minutes to drink the
                  > > > water.
                  > > >
                  > > > Weight.
                  > > > Squeeze + pouch + syringe add up to 6oz.
                  > > > Tabs = zero weight (since I carry tabs as a backup anyway).
                  > > > But maybe the 30min delay means you carry slightly more water? Not sure.
                  > > >
                  > > > Water quality.
                  > > > Filter won't get viruses. Chlorine won't get some Cryptosporidium.
                  > > >
                  > > > So, overall, I think everything is more or less equal --- except the ease
                  > > > of use and wasting time element. On a hike like JMT where you're aiming to
                  > > > carry very little water and refill 4 or 5 times a day, I just don't want to
                  > > > be messing around with the filter over and over again.
                  > > >
                  > > > Any thoughts?
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >

                  August 23, 2013 11:49 AM
                   

                  "This newer product works in 30 minutes versus the worst case wait for the chlorine dioxide tablets of 4 hours (but only 20 minutes if you pre-filter with a 1 micron absolute filter for Giardia and Cypto."

                  For their Micropur MP1 chlorine dioxide tablets Katadyn claims a 15 min wait for viruses and bacteria and only 30 min wait for Giardia and Crypto in typical conditions. The 4 hour wait applies only to Giardia and Crypto in cold and dirty water.

                  Aquatabs require 30 minutes for viruses, bacteria and Giardia. It is ineffective against Crypto.

                  Potable Aqua (iodine) tablets require 30 minutes for viruses, bacteria and Giardia. It is ineffective against Crypto.

                  --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > A relevant interesting thread spanning years is here:
                  > http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=19236&disable_pagination=1
                  >
                  > I posted this comment in this thread in the last 2 weeks:
                  >
                  > Aquatabs are not chemically the same thing [as Chlorine Dioxide]. From
                  > their web site: "They are effervescent (self-dissolving) tablets, the US
                  > EPA approved active ingredient is NaDCC which is also known as Sodium
                  > Dichloroisocyanurate or Troclosene Sodium."
                  >
                  > While Portable Aqua has Potable Aqua Chlorine Dioxide Water Purification
                  > Tablets and its active ingredients is clorine dioxide tablets.
                  >
                  > See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_dioxide -- lots of references,
                  > etc. on this.
                  >
                  > See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_dichloroisocyanurate -- this is so
                  > new, hardly any information exists.
                  >
                  > I did find these two references at cdc.gov:
                  >
                  > Lantagne DS, Cardinali F, Blount BC. Disinfection by-product formation and
                  > mitigation strategies in point-of-use chlorination with sodium
                  > dichloroisocyanurate in Tanzania. Am J Trop Med Hyg. 2010;Jul 83(1):135-43.
                  > Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20595492
                  >
                  > Jain S, Sahanoon OK, Blanton E, Schmitz A, Wannemuehler KA, Hoekstra RM,
                  > Quick RE. Sodium dichloroisocyanurate tablets for routine treatment of
                  > household drinking water in periurban Ghana: a randomized controlled trial.
                  > Am J Trop Med Hyg. 2010;Jan 82(1):16-22. Link:
                  > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20064989
                  >
                  > This newer product works in 30 minutes versus the worst case wait for the
                  > chlorine dioxide tablets of 4 hours (but only 20 minutes if you pre-filter
                  > with a 1 micron absolute filter for Giardia and Cypto. I like the .5 micron
                  > nominal filter for $4 that weighs 1 oz from DudaDiesel.com (use a wire
                  > clipper to remove the steel ring at top to get weight down to 1 oz).
                  >
                  > http://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=PTFEP3S
                  >
                  > I'd like to hear from more educated, chemically and biochemically,
                  > medically, about this newer chemical form.
                  >
                  > I believe though this newer chemical is the cause for the one product no
                  > longer being distributed. REI has switched to this newer chemical:
                  >
                  > http://www.rei.com/product/849795/msr-aquatabs-water-purification-tablets
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -------------------------------------------------
                  > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
                  > links)<https://plus.google.com/104440166440169700478/about>
                  > _
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 1:00 PM, straw_marmot <ralphbge@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > **
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Ok, I know we've done water many times before, but I'm coming to a
                  > > decision point, and I've realized (to my surprise) that I'm switching to
                  > > Aquatabs. Am I missing anything here?
                  > >
                  > > Ease of use / Time.
                  > > Popping a tab in a bottle and shaking beats any filter. Getting out the
                  > > filter and messing around inevitably takes 10 minutes. Refilling multiple
                  > > times a day, this adds up to a significant chunk of time. You don't waste
                  > > any hiking time with tabs, but you do have to wait 30 minutes to drink the
                  > > water.
                  > >
                  > > Weight.
                  > > Squeeze + pouch + syringe add up to 6oz.
                  > > Tabs = zero weight (since I carry tabs as a backup anyway).
                  > > But maybe the 30min delay means you carry slightly more water? Not sure.
                  > >
                  > > Water quality.
                  > > Filter won't get viruses. Chlorine won't get some Cryptosporidium.
                  > >
                  > > So, overall, I think everything is more or less equal --- except the ease
                  > > of use and wasting time element. On a hike like JMT where you're aiming to
                  > > carry very little water and refill 4 or 5 times a day, I just don't want to
                  > > be messing around with the filter over and over again.
                  > >
                  > > Any thoughts?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >

              • longritchie
                Are you familiar with the different methods they use? For example, Katadyn refers to some type of EPA protocol and EPA certification with respect to treatment
                Message 8 of 24 , Aug 23 12:44 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Are you familiar with the different methods they use? For example, Katadyn refers to some type of EPA protocol and EPA certification with respect to treatment of Crypto.

                  Lacking a careful field study, and assuming you were going to use a chemical-only water treatment, how would you decide between the various available options?



                  --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "straw_marmot" <ralphbge@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I'm wary of comparing these claims across manufacturers. There are no consistent standards of measurement. The only thing that really means much to me is something like a WHO study that really tests products side by side.
                  >
                  > The issue with Crypto is that some strains (by no means all) have evolved resistance to chlorine. I'm skeptical of a claim that ClO2 is effective against a resistant strain where Aquatabs are not.
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, longritchie <no_reply@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > "This newer product works in 30 minutes versus the worst case wait for the chlorine dioxide tablets of 4 hours (but only 20 minutes if you pre-filter with a 1 micron absolute filter for Giardia and Cypto."
                  > >
                  > > For their Micropur MP1 chlorine dioxide tablets Katadyn claims a 15 min wait for viruses and bacteria and only 30 min wait for Giardia and Crypto in typical conditions. The 4 hour wait applies only to Giardia and Crypto in cold and dirty water.
                  > >
                  > > Aquatabs require 30 minutes for viruses, bacteria and Giardia. It is ineffective against Crypto.
                  > >
                  > > Potable Aqua (iodine) tablets require 30 minutes for viruses, bacteria and Giardia. It is ineffective against Crypto.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > A relevant interesting thread spanning years is here:
                  > > > http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=19236&disable_pagination=1
                  > > >
                  > > > I posted this comment in this thread in the last 2 weeks:
                  > > >
                  > > > Aquatabs are not chemically the same thing [as Chlorine Dioxide]. From
                  > > > their web site: "They are effervescent (self-dissolving) tablets, the US
                  > > > EPA approved active ingredient is NaDCC which is also known as Sodium
                  > > > Dichloroisocyanurate or Troclosene Sodium."
                  > > >
                  > > > While Portable Aqua has Potable Aqua Chlorine Dioxide Water Purification
                  > > > Tablets and its active ingredients is clorine dioxide tablets.
                  > > >
                  > > > See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_dioxide -- lots of references,
                  > > > etc. on this.
                  > > >
                  > > > See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_dichloroisocyanurate -- this is so
                  > > > new, hardly any information exists.
                  > > >
                  > > > I did find these two references at cdc.gov:
                  > > >
                  > > > Lantagne DS, Cardinali F, Blount BC. Disinfection by-product formation and
                  > > > mitigation strategies in point-of-use chlorination with sodium
                  > > > dichloroisocyanurate in Tanzania. Am J Trop Med Hyg. 2010;Jul 83(1):135-43.
                  > > > Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20595492
                  > > >
                  > > > Jain S, Sahanoon OK, Blanton E, Schmitz A, Wannemuehler KA, Hoekstra RM,
                  > > > Quick RE. Sodium dichloroisocyanurate tablets for routine treatment of
                  > > > household drinking water in periurban Ghana: a randomized controlled trial.
                  > > > Am J Trop Med Hyg. 2010;Jan 82(1):16-22. Link:
                  > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20064989
                  > > >
                  > > > This newer product works in 30 minutes versus the worst case wait for the
                  > > > chlorine dioxide tablets of 4 hours (but only 20 minutes if you pre-filter
                  > > > with a 1 micron absolute filter for Giardia and Cypto. I like the .5 micron
                  > > > nominal filter for $4 that weighs 1 oz from DudaDiesel.com (use a wire
                  > > > clipper to remove the steel ring at top to get weight down to 1 oz).
                  > > >
                  > > > http://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=PTFEP3S
                  > > >
                  > > > I'd like to hear from more educated, chemically and biochemically,
                  > > > medically, about this newer chemical form.
                  > > >
                  > > > I believe though this newer chemical is the cause for the one product no
                  > > > longer being distributed. REI has switched to this newer chemical:
                  > > >
                  > > > http://www.rei.com/product/849795/msr-aquatabs-water-purification-tablets
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > -------------------------------------------------
                  > > > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
                  > > > links)<https://plus.google.com/104440166440169700478/about>
                  > > > _
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 1:00 PM, straw_marmot <ralphbge@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > > **
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Ok, I know we've done water many times before, but I'm coming to a
                  > > > > decision point, and I've realized (to my surprise) that I'm switching to
                  > > > > Aquatabs. Am I missing anything here?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Ease of use / Time.
                  > > > > Popping a tab in a bottle and shaking beats any filter. Getting out the
                  > > > > filter and messing around inevitably takes 10 minutes. Refilling multiple
                  > > > > times a day, this adds up to a significant chunk of time. You don't waste
                  > > > > any hiking time with tabs, but you do have to wait 30 minutes to drink the
                  > > > > water.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Weight.
                  > > > > Squeeze + pouch + syringe add up to 6oz.
                  > > > > Tabs = zero weight (since I carry tabs as a backup anyway).
                  > > > > But maybe the 30min delay means you carry slightly more water? Not sure.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Water quality.
                  > > > > Filter won't get viruses. Chlorine won't get some Cryptosporidium.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > So, overall, I think everything is more or less equal --- except the ease
                  > > > > of use and wasting time element. On a hike like JMT where you're aiming to
                  > > > > carry very little water and refill 4 or 5 times a day, I just don't want to
                  > > > > be messing around with the filter over and over again.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Any thoughts?
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Jeff
                  I use the sawyer squeeze in line with my platypus. Best of everything in my opinion. Fill platypus with dirty water, reconnect to hose, drink. No waiting, no
                  Message 9 of 24 , Aug 23 12:55 PM
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                    I use the sawyer squeeze in line with my platypus. Best of everything in my opinion. Fill platypus with "dirty" water, reconnect to hose, drink. No waiting, no pumping, and you only have the weight of the filter itself and the small connectors to get the hoses to mate.

                    Crusty foot


                    Please excuse my brevity, This message sent from a mobile device.
                  • Roleigh Martin
                    Jeff, When you write of everything , does it include the possible scenario of filter clogs up on trail and field maintenance fails to resolve issue ? I
                    Message 10 of 24 , Aug 23 1:20 PM
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                      Jeff,

                      When you write "of everything", does it include the possible scenario of "filter clogs up on trail and field maintenance fails to resolve issue"?  I suspect not and perhaps Sawyer has improved their filters to the point it does not happen, but each year I do my first multi-day hike on the Superior Hiking Trail where the water really needs good filtering and up until 2013 I used to bring two Sawyer .01 micron gravity filters along and both of those filters would get so clogged up after 2 days of use, that I found myself needing another filter after just 24 hours of us and I was unable to backflush using high speed stream water in the opposite direction.  For Sierra water, I remember a hike in the early 2000s on the High Sierra Trail where we were out for 7 days once and both of our filters (one Katadyn, one MSR) got so clogged up that we were unable via field maintenance to get them working again on the last day of the hike.

                      I got so tired of this happening that about 5 years ago I gave up on the use of such filters on the JMT.

                      Now the faster one hikes the JMT, the fewer days out there, the less likely such a clogging situation will occur.  

                      I'm curious to hear of others on the board if they've encountered clogged up filters that field maintenance is unable to get back to working order while on the trail.  Name brands and model and year of event and how long on the trail was one when it happened.

                      Thanks!
                      Roleigh

                      -------------------------------------------------
                      Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
                      _



                      On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 3:55 PM, Jeff <jtrolka@...> wrote:
                       

                      I use the sawyer squeeze in line with my platypus. Best of everything in my opinion. Fill platypus with "dirty" water, reconnect to hose, drink. No waiting, no pumping, and you only have the weight of the filter itself and the small connectors to get the hoses to mate.

                      Crusty foot

                      Please excuse my brevity, This message sent from a mobile device.


                    • straw_marmot
                      Yes, this sounds like a good way to use the Squeeze. But I think (although somehow I forgot to mention it in my original post) that the thing that really
                      Message 11 of 24 , Aug 23 5:07 PM
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                        Yes, this sounds like a good way to use the Squeeze.

                        But I think (although somehow I forgot to mention it in my original post) that the thing that really started to swing things away from the Squeeze for me on the JMT is the issue of overnight freezing. I just don't want to be worrying about that, when the Sawyer filter will give no indication that it's now useless.

                        I think that I will keep using my Squeeze on hot weather hikes, where there's no chance of a freeze and where there's a bigger aesthetic attraction of immediately available ice-cold stream water.

                        Ralph



                        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Jeff <jtrolka@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I use the sawyer squeeze in line with my platypus. Best of everything in my opinion. Fill platypus with "dirty" water, reconnect to hose, drink. No waiting, no pumping, and you only have the weight of the filter itself and the small connectors to get the hoses to mate.
                        >
                        > Crusty foot
                        >
                        >
                        > Please excuse my brevity, This message sent from a mobile device.
                        >
                      • Barbara Karagosian
                        Only that I think viruses are not an issue in the Sierra whereas Crypto can be - didn t we just have a trip report from someone recently who go it (or was
                        Message 12 of 24 , Aug 23 6:25 PM
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                          Only that I think viruses are not an issue in the Sierra whereas  Crypto can be - didn't we just have a trip report from someone recently who go it (or was that another forum)? 

                          Barbara


                          On Aug 23, 2013, at 10:00 AM, "straw_marmot" <ralphbge@...> wrote:

                           

                          Ok, I know we've done water many times before, but I'm coming to a decision point, and I've realized (to my surprise) that I'm switching to Aquatabs. Am I missing anything here?

                          Ease of use / Time.
                          Popping a tab in a bottle and shaking beats any filter. Getting out the filter and messing around inevitably takes 10 minutes. Refilling multiple times a day, this adds up to a significant chunk of time. You don't waste any hiking time with tabs, but you do have to wait 30 minutes to drink the water.

                          Weight.
                          Squeeze + pouch + syringe add up to 6oz.
                          Tabs = zero weight (since I carry tabs as a backup anyway).
                          But maybe the 30min delay means you carry slightly more water? Not sure.

                          Water quality.
                          Filter won't get viruses. Chlorine won't get some Cryptosporidium.

                          So, overall, I think everything is more or less equal --- except the ease of use and wasting time element. On a hike like JMT where you're aiming to carry very little water and refill 4 or 5 times a day, I just don't want to be messing around with the filter over and over again.

                          Any thoughts?

                        • Jeff
                          Roleigh, With the rate of failure you re reporting I wonder about whether you re per filtering questionable sources. In the past I have used, among other
                          Message 13 of 24 , Aug 24 2:22 AM
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                            Roleigh,

                            With the rate of failure you're reporting I wonder about whether you're per filtering questionable sources. In the past I have used, among other methods, a platypus gravity filter, an msr Sweetwater I think it was called, a katadyn hiker pro, and the katadyn chlorine tabs. The latter, I still carry in my emergency kit in the event of a catastrophic failure, which only ever occurred with the msr.

                            Please excuse my brevity, This message sent from a mobile device.
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