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Yosemite and Tuolumne river plans

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  • Barbara Karagosian
    I just spent 5 days up at May Lake High Sierra Camp - which is off the Tioga Road, about 10 miles west of Tuolumne Meadows. Anyway, the rangers coming
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 28, 2013
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      I just spent 5 days up at May Lake High Sierra Camp - which is off the Tioga Road, about 10 miles west of Tuolumne Meadows. Anyway, the rangers coming through, and the manager of the camp had lots to say about both plans. (I'll find a link for them shortly).

      Re the Yosemite Valley plan - this does include getting rid of the ice rink, bike and float raft rentals. The manager said at first he was for this but on reflection, was against it. He felt that the ice rink is already in place, used in the winter only, when of course there are way fewer visitors anyway. This is the area that becomes the bike rental place in summer. He felt that doing away with the bike rentals would mean that only those people visiting the valley with their own vehicle (and hence the means to bring in their own bikes) would then be able to bike. All others would not. Biking is a way for visitors to use the already laid down paved trails that run around and through the valley, and to see sights that otherwise they would not have access to. People can bike to places that they may not be able to walk to. The Park Service's mandate is not only to protect the environment but also to protect it for the people.

      I think that part of one of these plans includes doing away with stock use in the park. This means no mules. This therefore means no guided mule trips, and quite likely no more High Sierra camps, since this is how they are set up and stocked. The Camps were started in the 1930s; they're open for 3 months a year. They provide a means for people to be able to hike in the high country who would otherwise be unable to access these remoter parts of the park. I think it would be very sad if this happened, and the beauties of the high sierra restricted to only those healthy enough to be able to backpack out to see them.

      I also think it's very interesting to see which companies have funded the lawsuits that have led to the proposed changes. (that's a teaser for you).
      Barbara
    • Tim Goodrich
      I think that part of one of these plans includes doing away with stock use in the park. I think this is a great idea. When I was in Yosemite last month, the
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 28, 2013
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        “I think that part of one of these plans includes doing away with stock use in the park.”

         

        I think this is a great idea. When I was in Yosemite last month, the hooved locusts had so fouled the trail that it was almost unbearable to walk down the path and impossible to do so without getting a great mess on our shoes. If the Park Service’s mission is indeed to protect the land for the people, this would be a great first step in doing so.

      • sriprank
        Personally I support the packers. From a historical perspective these trails wouldn t have existed without them. If you eliminate them completely who will
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 29, 2013
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          Personally I support the packers. From a historical perspective these trails wouldn't have existed without them. If you eliminate them completely who will provide support for Trail Maintenance Crews. Last year there were 1000's of trees downed in Inyo along the JMT. Without the outfitters that Section of the Trail would still be impassible today. The Plan itself would not eliminate all stock only Commercial Operations. In 2012 the Sierra Hikers Association briefly won a Lawsuit banning Commercial Operations in SEKI but it was quickly overturned.
          Many Sections of the PCT are maintained by local Equestrian Groups

          http://www.inyoregister.com/node/2736

          Perhaps if you want to eliminate stock the next step to maintain a Pristine Wilderness would be to eliminate people because they do a lot more damage than a few horses.

          --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Goodrich" <tim@...> wrote:
          >
          > "I think that part of one of these plans includes doing away with stock use
          > in the park."
          >
          >
          >
          > I think this is a great idea. When I was in Yosemite last month, the hooved
          > locusts had so fouled the trail that it was almost unbearable to walk down
          > the path and impossible to do so without getting a great mess on our shoes.
          > If the Park Service's mission is indeed to protect the land for the people,
          > this would be a great first step in doing so.
          >
        • John
          ... I am trying hard to stay out of this one, but have to question anything that seems un-factual. Can you explain, how and where people [because they] do a
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 29, 2013
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            --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "sriprank" <sriprank@...> wrote:

            > Perhaps if you want to eliminate stock the next step to maintain a Pristine Wilderness would be to eliminate people because they do a lot more damage than a few horses.
            >


            I am trying hard to stay out of this one, but have to question anything that seems un-factual. Can you explain, how and where "people [because they] do a lot more damage than a [few] sic horses"

            John
          • John
            ... If you eliminate them completely who will provide support for Trail Maintenance Crews. Last year there were 1000 s of trees downed in Inyo along the JMT.
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 29, 2013
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              --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "sriprank" <sriprank@...> wrote:
              >
              If you eliminate them completely who will provide support for Trail Maintenance Crews. Last year there were 1000's of trees downed in Inyo along the JMT. Without the outfitters that Section of the Trail would still be impassible today.

              Is this true? As far as I know trail maintenance is accomplished by Government trail crews (in some cases utilizing volunteers) and supplied by Government stock or in some cases contract helicopters and or contract stock. I'm not sure the last sentence is accurate.

              John
            • sriprank
              I hiked it before it was cleaned up. There were several volunteer Groups doing the cleanup. There was a PCT crew and they were being supplied by local
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 29, 2013
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                I hiked it before it was cleaned up. There were several volunteer Groups doing the cleanup. There was a PCT crew and they were being supplied by local Packers. I saw them and spoke to them.

                --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" <johndittli@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "sriprank" <sriprank@> wrote:
                > >
                > If you eliminate them completely who will provide support for Trail Maintenance Crews. Last year there were 1000's of trees downed in Inyo along the JMT. Without the outfitters that Section of the Trail would still be impassible today.
                >
                > Is this true? As far as I know trail maintenance is accomplished by Government trail crews (in some cases utilizing volunteers) and supplied by Government stock or in some cases contract helicopters and or contract stock. I'm not sure the last sentence is accurate.
                >
                > John
                >
              • John
                Was this in Yosemite? John
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 29, 2013
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                  Was this in Yosemite?

                  John

                  --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "sriprank" <sriprank@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I hiked it before it was cleaned up. There were several volunteer Groups doing the cleanup. There was a PCT crew and they were being supplied by local Packers. I saw them and spoke to them.
                  >
                  > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" <johndittli@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "sriprank" <sriprank@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > If you eliminate them completely who will provide support for Trail Maintenance Crews. Last year there were 1000's of trees downed in Inyo along the JMT. Without the outfitters that Section of the Trail would still be impassible today.
                  > >
                  > > Is this true? As far as I know trail maintenance is accomplished by Government trail crews (in some cases utilizing volunteers) and supplied by Government stock or in some cases contract helicopters and or contract stock. I'm not sure the last sentence is accurate.
                  > >
                  > > John
                  > >
                  >
                • sriprank
                  Not all hikers are good hikers. There are many lazy hikers out there. There are many who enter the Wilderness without a sense of Stewardship. They build
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 29, 2013
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                    Not all hikers are good hikers. There are many lazy hikers out there. There are many who enter the Wilderness without a sense of Stewardship. They build illegal fires, wash there clothes in Lakes and Streams and abandon trash along the way. A few years ago we were Peak Bagging near Pinchot and the lower half of Marjorie Lake was full of soap suds. You see this a lot on the Southern Sections of the PCT. For some it is a big party but for many of those people they drop early.

                    --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" <johndittli@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "sriprank" <sriprank@> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Perhaps if you want to eliminate stock the next step to maintain a Pristine Wilderness would be to eliminate people because they do a lot more damage than a few horses.
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > I am trying hard to stay out of this one, but have to question anything that seems un-factual. Can you explain, how and where "people [because they] do a lot more damage than a [few] sic horses"
                    >
                    > John
                    >
                  • sriprank
                    No it was coming into Devils Postpile.
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 29, 2013
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                      No it was coming into Devils Postpile.

                      --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" <johndittli@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Was this in Yosemite?
                      >
                      > John
                      >
                      > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "sriprank" <sriprank@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I hiked it before it was cleaned up. There were several volunteer Groups doing the cleanup. There was a PCT crew and they were being supplied by local Packers. I saw them and spoke to them.
                      > >
                      > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" <johndittli@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "sriprank" <sriprank@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > If you eliminate them completely who will provide support for Trail Maintenance Crews. Last year there were 1000's of trees downed in Inyo along the JMT. Without the outfitters that Section of the Trail would still be impassible today.
                      > > >
                      > > > Is this true? As far as I know trail maintenance is accomplished by Government trail crews (in some cases utilizing volunteers) and supplied by Government stock or in some cases contract helicopters and or contract stock. I'm not sure the last sentence is accurate.
                      > > >
                      > > > John
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • John
                      I agree, there are poor stewards in ALL user groups. Please explain how and where in the Yosemite backcountry people cause more damage than horses. John
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 29, 2013
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                        I agree, there are poor stewards in ALL user groups. Please explain how and where in the Yosemite backcountry people cause more damage than horses.

                        John

                        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "sriprank" <sriprank@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Not all hikers are good hikers. There are many lazy hikers out there. There are many who enter the Wilderness without a sense of Stewardship. They build illegal fires, wash there clothes in Lakes and Streams and abandon trash along the way. A few years ago we were Peak Bagging near Pinchot and the lower half of Marjorie Lake was full of soap suds. You see this a lot on the Southern Sections of the PCT. For some it is a big party but for many of those people they drop early.
                        >
                        > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" <johndittli@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "sriprank" <sriprank@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > Perhaps if you want to eliminate stock the next step to maintain a Pristine Wilderness would be to eliminate people because they do a lot more damage than a few horses.
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > I am trying hard to stay out of this one, but have to question anything that seems un-factual. Can you explain, how and where "people [because they] do a lot more damage than a [few] sic horses"
                        > >
                        > > John
                        > >
                        >
                      • John
                        Oh, I see. I was of the understanding this tread was about the Yosemite Merced and Tuolumne River Plans... John
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 29, 2013
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                          Oh, I see. I was of the understanding this tread was about the Yosemite Merced and Tuolumne River Plans...

                          John

                          --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "sriprank" <sriprank@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > No it was coming into Devils Postpile.
                          >
                          > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" <johndittli@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Was this in Yosemite?
                          > >
                          > > John
                          > >
                          > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "sriprank" <sriprank@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > I hiked it before it was cleaned up. There were several volunteer Groups doing the cleanup. There was a PCT crew and they were being supplied by local Packers. I saw them and spoke to them.
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" <johndittli@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "sriprank" <sriprank@> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > If you eliminate them completely who will provide support for Trail Maintenance Crews. Last year there were 1000's of trees downed in Inyo along the JMT. Without the outfitters that Section of the Trail would still be impassible today.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Is this true? As far as I know trail maintenance is accomplished by Government trail crews (in some cases utilizing volunteers) and supplied by Government stock or in some cases contract helicopters and or contract stock. I'm not sure the last sentence is accurate.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > John
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • sriprank
                          Well there have been two separate suits filed in Inyo. One was upheld by the Ninth Circuit last year but shortly after vacated. I kind of expanded the
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 29, 2013
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                            Well there have been two separate suits filed in Inyo. One was upheld by the Ninth Circuit last year but shortly after vacated. I kind of expanded the thread. Sorry for the confusion.

                            --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" <johndittli@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Oh, I see. I was of the understanding this tread was about the Yosemite Merced and Tuolumne River Plans...
                            >
                            > John
                            >
                            > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "sriprank" <sriprank@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > No it was coming into Devils Postpile.
                            > >
                            > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" <johndittli@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Was this in Yosemite?
                            > > >
                            > > > John
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "sriprank" <sriprank@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I hiked it before it was cleaned up. There were several volunteer Groups doing the cleanup. There was a PCT crew and they were being supplied by local Packers. I saw them and spoke to them.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" <johndittli@> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "sriprank" <sriprank@> wrote:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > If you eliminate them completely who will provide support for Trail Maintenance Crews. Last year there were 1000's of trees downed in Inyo along the JMT. Without the outfitters that Section of the Trail would still be impassible today.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Is this true? As far as I know trail maintenance is accomplished by Government trail crews (in some cases utilizing volunteers) and supplied by Government stock or in some cases contract helicopters and or contract stock. I'm not sure the last sentence is accurate.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > John
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Viraj Ward
                            More information/editorializing from the NY times today:
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 29, 2013
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                              More information/editorializing from the NY times today:
                               
                              Viraj Ward

                              From: Barbara Karagosian <barbara@...>
                              To: JMT forum <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 3:45 PM
                              Subject: [John Muir Trail] Yosemite and Tuolumne river plans
                               
                              I just spent 5 days up at May Lake High Sierra Camp - which is off the Tioga Road, about 10 miles west of Tuolumne Meadows. Anyway, the rangers coming through, and the manager of the camp had lots to say about both plans. (I'll find a link for them shortly).

                              Re the Yosemite Valley plan - this does include getting rid of the ice rink, bike and float raft rentals. The manager said at first he was for this but on reflection, was against it. He felt that the ice rink is already in place, used in the winter only, when of course there are way fewer visitors anyway. This is the area that becomes the bike rental place in summer. He felt that doing away with the bike rentals would mean that only those people visiting the valley with their own vehicle (and hence the means to bring in their own bikes) would then be able to bike. All others would not. Biking is a way for visitors to use the already laid down paved trails that run around and through the valley, and to see sights that otherwise they would not have access to. People can bike to places that they may not be able to walk to. The Park Service's mandate is not only to protect the environment but also to protect it for the people.

                              I think that part of one of these plans includes doing away with stock use in the park. This means no mules. This therefore means no guided mule trips, and quite likely no more High Sierra camps, since this is how they are set up and stocked. The Camps were started in the 1930s; they're open for 3 months a year. They provide a means for people to be able to hike in the high country who would otherwise be unable to access these remoter parts of the park. I think it would be very sad if this happened, and the beauties of the high sierra restricted to only those healthy enough to be able to backpack out to see them.

                              I also think it's very interesting to see which companies have funded the lawsuits that have led to the proposed changes. (that's a teaser for you).
                              Barbara
                            • gkahn21
                              ... They provide a means for people to be able to hike in the high country who would otherwise be unable to access these remoter parts of the park. I think
                              Message 14 of 19 , Aug 1 9:31 AM
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                                --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@...> wrote:
                                "They provide a means for people to be able to hike in the high country who would otherwise be unable to access these remoter parts of the park. I think it would be very sad if this happened, and the beauties of the high sierra restricted to only those healthy enough to be able to backpack out to see them."

                                They do provide that opportunity, but how many of the guests at the high sierra camps are actually physically unable to backpack? It seems most either are unwillingly to backpack or prefer the luxuries of the high sierra camps. While providing the opportunity to see the high sierra, is it necessary to have flush toilets, showers, fresh linens, and fancy meals (with all the associated impacts)? It seems to me that you could still provide access to those incapable of backpacking without all the amenities and permanent installations.
                              • Barbara Karagosian
                                Just FYI, the High Sierra camps don t provide showers, nor fresh linen, and several have pit toilets. But the meals are pretty good, and open to backpackers
                                Message 15 of 19 , Aug 1 10:31 AM
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                                  Just FYI, the High Sierra camps don't provide showers, nor fresh linen, and several have pit toilets. But the meals are pretty good, and open to backpackers too. 



                                  On Aug 1, 2013, at 9:31 AM, gkahn21 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                   

                                  --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@...> wrote:
                                  "They provide a means for people to be able to hike in the high country who would otherwise be unable to access these remoter parts of the park. I think it would be very sad if this happened, and the beauties of the high sierra restricted to only those healthy enough to be able to backpack out to see them."

                                  They do provide that opportunity, but how many of the guests at the high sierra camps are actually physically unable to backpack? It seems most either are unwillingly to backpack or prefer the luxuries of the high sierra camps. While providing the opportunity to see the high sierra, is it necessary to have flush toilets, showers, fresh linens, and fancy meals (with all the associated impacts)? It seems to me that you could still provide access to those incapable of backpacking without all the amenities and permanent installations.

                                • gkahn21
                                  Just FYI, the High Sierra camps do provide showers: From http://www.yosemitepark.com/high-sierra-camp-lodging.aspx Who wouldn t want a hot shower after a day
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Aug 1 11:18 AM
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                                    Just FYI, the High Sierra camps do provide showers:
                                    From http://www.yosemitepark.com/high-sierra-camp-lodging.aspx
                                    "Who wouldn't want a hot shower after a day on the trail? Hot showers are available at May Lake, Sunrise and Merced Lake" Not all of them, but the majority of them. I was mistaken about the linen, they must have changed their policy in recent years. Yes, meals are available for backpackers, but is very limited.

                                    --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Just FYI, the High Sierra camps don't provide showers, nor fresh linen, and several have pit toilets. But the meals are pretty good, and open to backpackers too.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On Aug 1, 2013, at 9:31 AM, gkahn21 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@> wrote:
                                    > > "They provide a means for people to be able to hike in the high country who would otherwise be unable to access these remoter parts of the park. I think it would be very sad if this happened, and the beauties of the high sierra restricted to only those healthy enough to be able to backpack out to see them."
                                    > >
                                    > > They do provide that opportunity, but how many of the guests at the high sierra camps are actually physically unable to backpack? It seems most either are unwillingly to backpack or prefer the luxuries of the high sierra camps. While providing the opportunity to see the high sierra, is it necessary to have flush toilets, showers, fresh linens, and fancy meals (with all the associated impacts)? It seems to me that you could still provide access to those incapable of backpacking without all the amenities and permanent installations.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Barbara Karagosian
                                    Glen Aulin and Vogelsang don t. May Lake won t as of 2014 because of exceeding water allowance Sunrise does only in the early season of a wet year.
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Aug 1 11:58 AM
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                                      Glen Aulin and Vogelsang don't. May Lake won't as of 2014 because of exceeding water allowance  Sunrise does only in the early season of a wet year. 



                                      On Aug 1, 2013, at 11:18 AM, gkahn21 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                       

                                      Just FYI, the High Sierra camps do provide showers:
                                      From http://www.yosemitepark.com/high-sierra-camp-lodging.aspx
                                      "Who wouldn't want a hot shower after a day on the trail? Hot showers are available at May Lake, Sunrise and Merced Lake" Not all of them, but the majority of them. I was mistaken about the linen, they must have changed their policy in recent years. Yes, meals are available for backpackers, but is very limited.

                                      --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Just FYI, the High Sierra camps don't provide showers, nor fresh linen, and several have pit toilets. But the meals are pretty good, and open to backpackers too.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On Aug 1, 2013, at 9:31 AM, gkahn21 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@> wrote:
                                      > > "They provide a means for people to be able to hike in the high country who would otherwise be unable to access these remoter parts of the park. I think it would be very sad if this happened, and the beauties of the high sierra restricted to only those healthy enough to be able to backpack out to see them."
                                      > >
                                      > > They do provide that opportunity, but how many of the guests at the high sierra camps are actually physically unable to backpack? It seems most either are unwillingly to backpack or prefer the luxuries of the high sierra camps. While providing the opportunity to see the high sierra, is it necessary to have flush toilets, showers, fresh linens, and fancy meals (with all the associated impacts)? It seems to me that you could still provide access to those incapable of backpacking without all the amenities and permanent installations.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >

                                    • gkahn21
                                      Exceeding water allowance? May Lake is next to a lake so would seem to have the most secure water source out of any of the camps. Seems odd to me. I would
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Aug 1 4:43 PM
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                                        Exceeding water allowance? May Lake is next to a lake so would seem to have the most secure water source out of any of the camps. Seems odd to me. I would think it would be a problem with the waste water disposal. But whatever the reason, I'm all for it.

                                        Though nitpicking over where there are showers misses the point. The camps have a large impact comparative to their use. Even with the reduction of showers, all the water/waste water infrastructure at the high sierra camps will stay. Though the actual camps haven't expanded much since they were established, the water/waste water systems have increased greatly. Gourmet food is still packed in along with other supplies and trash is packed out. They'll probably have to pack in water to Sunrise this year, which seems really absurd. Then there is setup, maintenance, take down, etc. That's just operations, not getting into the impact the actual visitors have being concentrated in those specific areas.

                                        It is great that the camps let people that otherwise can't go backpacking experience some of the high sierra, but that shouldn't give the camps a free pass for their impacts. Again, I think it is a limited number of people unable to physically go and more of an excuse now for the camps.


                                        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Glen Aulin and Vogelsang don't. May Lake won't as of 2014 because of exceeding water allowance Sunrise does only in the early season of a wet year.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On Aug 1, 2013, at 11:18 AM, gkahn21 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > Just FYI, the High Sierra camps do provide showers:
                                        > > From http://www.yosemitepark.com/high-sierra-camp-lodging.aspx
                                        > > "Who wouldn't want a hot shower after a day on the trail? Hot showers are available at May Lake, Sunrise and Merced Lake" Not all of them, but the majority of them. I was mistaken about the linen, they must have changed their policy in recent years. Yes, meals are available for backpackers, but is very limited.
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Just FYI, the High Sierra camps don't provide showers, nor fresh linen, and several have pit toilets. But the meals are pretty good, and open to backpackers too.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > On Aug 1, 2013, at 9:31 AM, gkahn21 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@> wrote:
                                        > > > > "They provide a means for people to be able to hike in the high country who would otherwise be unable to access these remoter parts of the park. I think it would be very sad if this happened, and the beauties of the high sierra restricted to only those healthy enough to be able to backpack out to see them."
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > They do provide that opportunity, but how many of the guests at the high sierra camps are actually physically unable to backpack? It seems most either are unwillingly to backpack or prefer the luxuries of the high sierra camps. While providing the opportunity to see the high sierra, is it necessary to have flush toilets, showers, fresh linens, and fancy meals (with all the associated impacts)? It seems to me that you could still provide access to those incapable of backpacking without all the amenities and permanent installations.
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                                      • Carolsteveyoung
                                        Environmental impact is also huge for those who pack in on horseback. I always keep in mind that these are people who have a bit more $$ and perhaps some
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Aug 2 7:48 AM
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Environmental impact is also huge for those who pack in on horseback. I always keep in mind that these are people who have a bit more $$ and perhaps some political influence in a different way. 

                                          We stayed two free nights at BearPaw camp (my wife was stepped on by one of their mule pack train) before they brought in a horse to ride her out in 2010. Food was glorious, made several friends among that crowd, and day hiked with a great guy who had come in with adult daughter who wasn't much into backpacking. He appreciated having a hike partner with enthusiasm and stamina. It was an eye opener for me to see who stays there. What seems pricy for me was well within their vacation budget. 

                                          In 1999 my 10-yr-old son was almost forced over a cliff drop by a stupid horse leader out of Reds Meadow who allowed a little girl (age7 maybe) to ride lead on his train down a narrow trail. I yelled at him (he was at least 8 back and couldn't even see her). Just a scare on that one. 

                                          Still these are people who bring a loud voice to wilderness issues and especially in CA the horse crowd seems to be well connected. 

                                          Steve Young
                                          Geneva IL



                                          On Aug 1, 2013, at 6:43 PM, gkahn21 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                           

                                          Exceeding water allowance? May Lake is next to a lake so would seem to have the most secure water source out of any of the camps. Seems odd to me. I would think it would be a problem with the waste water disposal. But whatever the reason, I'm all for it.

                                          Though nitpicking over where there are showers misses the point. The camps have a large impact comparative to their use. Even with the reduction of showers, all the water/waste water infrastructure at the high sierra camps will stay. Though the actual camps haven't expanded much since they were established, the water/waste water systems have increased greatly. Gourmet food is still packed in along with other supplies and trash is packed out. They'll probably have to pack in water to Sunrise this year, which seems really absurd. Then there is setup, maintenance, take down, etc. That's just operations, not getting into the impact the actual visitors have being concentrated in those specific areas.

                                          It is great that the camps let people that otherwise can't go backpacking experience some of the high sierra, but that shouldn't give the camps a free pass for their impacts. Again, I think it is a limited number of people unable to physically go and more of an excuse now for the camps.

                                          --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Glen Aulin and Vogelsang don't. May Lake won't as of 2014 because of exceeding water allowance Sunrise does only in the early season of a wet year.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > On Aug 1, 2013, at 11:18 AM, gkahn21 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Just FYI, the High Sierra camps do provide showers:
                                          > > From http://www.yosemitepark.com/high-sierra-camp-lodging.aspx
                                          > > "Who wouldn't want a hot shower after a day on the trail? Hot showers are available at May Lake, Sunrise and Merced Lake" Not all of them, but the majority of them. I was mistaken about the linen, they must have changed their policy in recent years. Yes, meals are available for backpackers, but is very limited.
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Just FYI, the High Sierra camps don't provide showers, nor fresh linen, and several have pit toilets. But the meals are pretty good, and open to backpackers too.
                                          > > >
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                                          > > >
                                          > > > On Aug 1, 2013, at 9:31 AM, gkahn21 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@> wrote:
                                          > > > > "They provide a means for people to be able to hike in the high country who would otherwise be unable to access these remoter parts of the park. I think it would be very sad if this happened, and the beauties of the high sierra restricted to only those healthy enough to be able to backpack out to see them."
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > They do provide that opportunity, but how many of the guests at the high sierra camps are actually physically unable to backpack? It seems most either are unwillingly to backpack or prefer the luxuries of the high sierra camps. While providing the opportunity to see the high sierra, is it necessary to have flush toilets, showers, fresh linens, and fancy meals (with all the associated impacts)? It seems to me that you could still provide access to those incapable of backpacking without all the amenities and permanent installations.
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