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Re: food for thought re: Permithrin

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  • basecampbound
    Yes, particularly interesting that they really didn t find much in the water itself. My friend was saying they believe inhalation of the pesticides to be a
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 28, 2013
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      Yes, particularly interesting that they really didn't find much in the water itself. My friend was saying they believe inhalation of the pesticides to be a larger issue than previously thought.



      --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:
      >
      > Some further support for the thought that permethrin on clothing is a
      > negligible factor in frog exposures
      >
      > http://www.latimes.com/news/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-frogs-pesticides-sierra-nevada-20130726,0,5060885.story
      >
      > John Curran Ladd
      > 1616 Castro Street
      > San Francisco, CA 94114-3707
      > 415-648-9279
      >
      >
      > On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 11:57 PM, basecampbound <kjonmyway@...> wrote:
      >
      > > **
      > >
      > >
      > > I don't mean any disrespect to anyone, and everyone of course, is entitled
      > > to their own opinions, but after reading both pros and cons of Permithrin,
      > > I asked a friend who is a Marine Biologist, (and coincidentally, worked in
      > > the Gulf during the BP oil spill).
      > >
      > > She is intimately familiar with the frog issue, and the effect of
      > > chemicals (that is her area of expertise), and offered the following take
      > > on this issue:
      > >
      > > Her opinion, was that anyone who is overly concerned about pesticides and
      > > neuro toxins should stay out of Sequoia/Kings Canyon altogether. She
      > > pointed out that SEKI has the worst air quality of any National Park,
      > > mostly due to the agriculture in the area, and....you guessed it....the
      > > pesticides that are used in farming that are in the air. She said that an
      > > average (mostly summer days) of over 80 days a year are considered to be
      > > well above unhealthy levels. Her take was that any amount of pesticide on
      > > your skin and/or clothing, is nothing compared to what you are breathing
      > > into your lungs, just being in the area.
      > >
      > > I too, was concerned about using both Deet and Permithrin, but she assured
      > > me that there are far worse levels in the air all through SEKI, and that
      > > the real issue with stream contamination is the contamination through air,
      > > (and rain) due to the pesticides used all throughout the farming areas.
      > >
      > > As an interesting side note: she is a hiker as well, and has hiked in the
      > > area extensively, and says she doesn't usually worry about giardia, but
      > > filters her water due to the pesticide levels.
      > >
      > > Just thought someone might find this as interesting as I did.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • John Ladd
      The study itself is found here: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/etc.2308/abstract The Abstract is free. Is there anyone out there with science
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 28, 2013
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        The study itself is found here:


        The Abstract is free. Is there anyone out there with science library login credentials that could read the article to see if Permethrin was found ? It isn't listed in the abstract, though some other pesticides are listed.

        I've asked the author (Kelly Small) via email her opinion of permethrin use on clothing for backpackers.



        John Curran Ladd
        1616 Castro Street
        San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
        415-648-9279


        On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 1:25 AM, basecampbound <kjonmyway@...> wrote:
         

        Yes, particularly interesting that they really didn't find much in the water itself. My friend was saying they believe inhalation of the pesticides to be a larger issue than previously thought.



        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:
        >
        > Some further support for the thought that permethrin on clothing is a
        > negligible factor in frog exposures
        >
        > http://www.latimes.com/news/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-frogs-pesticides-sierra-nevada-20130726,0,5060885.story
        >
        > John Curran Ladd
        > 1616 Castro Street
        > San Francisco, CA 94114-3707
        > 415-648-9279
        >
        >
        > On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 11:57 PM, basecampbound <kjonmyway@...> wrote:
        >
        > > **

        > >
        > >
        > > I don't mean any disrespect to anyone, and everyone of course, is entitled
        > > to their own opinions, but after reading both pros and cons of Permithrin,
        > > I asked a friend who is a Marine Biologist, (and coincidentally, worked in
        > > the Gulf during the BP oil spill).
        > >
        > > She is intimately familiar with the frog issue, and the effect of
        > > chemicals (that is her area of expertise), and offered the following take
        > > on this issue:
        > >
        > > Her opinion, was that anyone who is overly concerned about pesticides and
        > > neuro toxins should stay out of Sequoia/Kings Canyon altogether. She
        > > pointed out that SEKI has the worst air quality of any National Park,
        > > mostly due to the agriculture in the area, and....you guessed it....the
        > > pesticides that are used in farming that are in the air. She said that an
        > > average (mostly summer days) of over 80 days a year are considered to be
        > > well above unhealthy levels. Her take was that any amount of pesticide on
        > > your skin and/or clothing, is nothing compared to what you are breathing
        > > into your lungs, just being in the area.
        > >
        > > I too, was concerned about using both Deet and Permithrin, but she assured
        > > me that there are far worse levels in the air all through SEKI, and that
        > > the real issue with stream contamination is the contamination through air,
        > > (and rain) due to the pesticides used all throughout the farming areas.
        > >
        > > As an interesting side note: she is a hiker as well, and has hiked in the
        > > area extensively, and says she doesn't usually worry about giardia, but
        > > filters her water due to the pesticide levels.
        > >
        > > Just thought someone might find this as interesting as I did.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >


      • John Ladd
        The frog study, full version, is available at his link http://ca.water.usgs.gov/projects/toxics/DOI_10.1002_etc.2308_frogs_pesticides.pdf Here s the views of
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 29, 2013
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          The frog study, full version, is available at his link

          http://ca.water.usgs.gov/projects/toxics/DOI_10.1002_etc.2308_frogs_pesticides.pdf

          Here's the views of the lead author (Kelly Smalling) on permethrin use on clothing:

          "We did not find any permethrin in our frogs. We did find fipronil in the water in one of the ponds we sampled at a snopark and assumed it was from a dog swimming in the pond. 

          If people want to wear permethrin infused clothing then that is up to them. I think a great precaution is not to wash or wear the clothing in lake water just in case. "

          (From her email to me. Fipronil is a mosquito and flea repellent and is used in animal treatments, mostly for fleas, like Fiprogard and PetArmor)

          She works at California Water Science Center, US Geological Survey, Sacramento, California

          Full citation:

          Smalling, K et al, ACCUMULATION OF PESTICIDES IN PACIFIC CHORUS FROGS (PSEUDACRIS REGILLA) FROM CALIFORNIA’S SIERRA NEVADA MOUNTAINS, USA, Environmental Toxicology and Chemistry, Vol. 32, No. 9, pp. 2026–2034, 2013


          John Curran Ladd
          1616 Castro Street
          San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
          415-648-9279


          On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 1:06 PM, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:
          Some further support for the thought that permethrin on clothing is a negligible factor in frog exposures


          John Curran Ladd
          1616 Castro Street
          San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
          415-648-9279


          On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 11:57 PM, basecampbound <kjonmyway@...> wrote:
           

          I don't mean any disrespect to anyone, and everyone of course, is entitled to their own opinions, but after reading both pros and cons of Permithrin, I asked a friend who is a Marine Biologist, (and coincidentally, worked in the Gulf during the BP oil spill).

          She is intimately familiar with the frog issue, and the effect of chemicals (that is her area of expertise), and offered the following take on this issue:

          Her opinion, was that anyone who is overly concerned about pesticides and neuro toxins should stay out of Sequoia/Kings Canyon altogether. She pointed out that SEKI has the worst air quality of any National Park, mostly due to the agriculture in the area, and....you guessed it....the pesticides that are used in farming that are in the air. She said that an average (mostly summer days) of over 80 days a year are considered to be well above unhealthy levels. Her take was that any amount of pesticide on your skin and/or clothing, is nothing compared to what you are breathing into your lungs, just being in the area.

          I too, was concerned about using both Deet and Permithrin, but she assured me that there are far worse levels in the air all through SEKI, and that the real issue with stream contamination is the contamination through air, (and rain) due to the pesticides used all throughout the farming areas.

          As an interesting side note: she is a hiker as well, and has hiked in the area extensively, and says she doesn't usually worry about giardia, but filters her water due to the pesticide levels.

          Just thought someone might find this as interesting as I did.



        • sriprank
          The problem I have is that each year more and more people are bringing Permithrin. into the Wilderness. Twenty -five years ago few would have thought of it.
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 29, 2013
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            The problem I have is that each year more and more people are bringing
            Permithrin. into the Wilderness. Twenty -five years ago few would have thought of it. With the Internet and Groups such as this it is becoming widespread.
            So the are 2000 members in the Group. Then there is the FB Group where the other day someone suggested buying the commercial version and using that. How many other Hiking Groups do you think there are on the Internet. Hundreds, thousands? And the subject of Permithrin comes up in the majority of them. And yes it works and then they tell there friends about it. So the numbers multiply multi-fold every year. My objections are not specifically related to the yellow Legged Frog. This is a complex problem with the current research pointing to a fungal disease called Chytridiomycosis which is responsible for a World wide kill of native amphibians. My feelings are that the use of Permithrin is unnecessary and selfish and that as more and more people use it that it will become a factor. You can 'suggest' that people keep it away from water but not all will.

            --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:
            >
            > The frog study, full version, is available at his link
            >
            > http://ca.water.usgs.gov/projects/toxics/DOI_10.1002_etc.2308_frogs_pesticides.pdf
            >
            > Here's the views of the lead author (Kelly Smalling) on permethrin use on
            > clothing:
            >
            >
            > "We did not find any permethrin in our frogs. We did find fipronil in the
            > water in one of the ponds we sampled at a snopark and assumed it was from a
            > dog swimming in the pond.
            >
            > If people want to wear permethrin infused clothing then that is up to them.
            > I think a great precaution is not to wash or wear the clothing in lake
            > water just in case. "
            >
            > (From her email to me. Fipronil is a mosquito and flea repellent and is
            > used in animal treatments, mostly for fleas, like Fiprogard and PetArmor)
            >
            > She works at California Water Science Center, US Geological Survey,
            > Sacramento, California
            >
            > Full citation:
            >
            > Smalling, K et al, ACCUMULATION OF PESTICIDES IN PACIFIC CHORUS FROGS
            > (PSEUDACRIS REGILLA) FROM CALIFORNIA'S SIERRA NEVADA MOUNTAINS, USA,
            > Environmental Toxicology and Chemistry, Vol. 32, No. 9, pp. 2026–2034, 2013
            >
            >
            > John Curran Ladd
            > 1616 Castro Street
            > San Francisco, CA 94114-3707
            > 415-648-9279
            >
            >
            > On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 1:06 PM, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:
            >
            > > Some further support for the thought that permethrin on clothing is a
            > > negligible factor in frog exposures
            > >
            > >
            > > http://www.latimes.com/news/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-frogs-pesticides-sierra-nevada-20130726,0,5060885.story
            > >
            > > John Curran Ladd
            > > 1616 Castro Street
            > > San Francisco, CA 94114-3707
            > > 415-648-9279
            > >
            > >
            > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 11:57 PM, basecampbound <kjonmyway@...>wrote:
            > >
            > >> **
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> I don't mean any disrespect to anyone, and everyone of course, is
            > >> entitled to their own opinions, but after reading both pros and cons of
            > >> Permithrin, I asked a friend who is a Marine Biologist, (and
            > >> coincidentally, worked in the Gulf during the BP oil spill).
            > >>
            > >> She is intimately familiar with the frog issue, and the effect of
            > >> chemicals (that is her area of expertise), and offered the following take
            > >> on this issue:
            > >>
            > >> Her opinion, was that anyone who is overly concerned about pesticides and
            > >> neuro toxins should stay out of Sequoia/Kings Canyon altogether. She
            > >> pointed out that SEKI has the worst air quality of any National Park,
            > >> mostly due to the agriculture in the area, and....you guessed it....the
            > >> pesticides that are used in farming that are in the air. She said that an
            > >> average (mostly summer days) of over 80 days a year are considered to be
            > >> well above unhealthy levels. Her take was that any amount of pesticide on
            > >> your skin and/or clothing, is nothing compared to what you are breathing
            > >> into your lungs, just being in the area.
            > >>
            > >> I too, was concerned about using both Deet and Permithrin, but she
            > >> assured me that there are far worse levels in the air all through SEKI, and
            > >> that the real issue with stream contamination is the contamination through
            > >> air, (and rain) due to the pesticides used all throughout the farming
            > >> areas.
            > >>
            > >> As an interesting side note: she is a hiker as well, and has hiked in the
            > >> area extensively, and says she doesn't usually worry about giardia, but
            > >> filters her water due to the pesticide levels.
            > >>
            > >> Just thought someone might find this as interesting as I did.
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            >
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