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Re: [John Muir Trail] Trail routing in Yosemite for purists

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  • robert shattuck
    Whichever way you go at LYV you aren t missing anything and you can practically spit from one trail to the next or make a circle of them and say you completed
    Message 1 of 27 , Jul 17, 2013
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      Whichever way you go at LYV you aren't missing anything and you can practically spit from one trail to the next or make a circle of them and say you completed both!!

      As for TM, crossing 120 is, I do believe the official route which I've never bothered to do, preferring to just stay on "this side" of the road, but it's just a two mile flat stretch with cars in you ears . . . Apparently if you cross the road you do get to see a few things of historical interest, but in all honesty after I walked that section the first time, I've just always felt the pull of burgers and beer and jumped on the first shuttle that comes down the road. 

      Bob

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jul 17, 2013, at 9:59 PM, "steve herr" <groundhogsteve@...> wrote:

       

      I notice that there are differences between the Postholer trace and the Tom Harrison maps routing of the JMT for two sections in Yosemite

      Postholer takes the cutoff to bypass the Little Yosemite Valley Campground, Harrison map routes through the campground.

      Postholer skirts by the south side of Tuolumne Meadows complex, Harrison crosses Hwy 120 and generally goes north.

      Does anybody know which is the official route in each case?

    • ravi_jmt2013
      ... I m going with the Harrison route which crosses Tioga Road just east of the Visitor s Center and goes past Parson s Lodge. The map shows that the small
      Message 2 of 27 , Jul 18, 2013
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        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, steve herr <groundhogsteve@...> wrote:
        >
        > Postholer skirts by the south side of Tuolumne Meadows complex, Harrison crosses Hwy 120 and generally goes north.
        >

        I'm going with the Harrison route which crosses Tioga Road just east of the Visitor's Center and goes past Parson's Lodge. The map shows that the small loop through the meadows is under two miles long and ends up only a short walk east of the camp store, post office and grill. I think that the loop through the meadows is more scenic than the trail that goes from the Visitor's Center to the back of the Tuolumne campground and probably adds less than thirty minutes of walking. If it is early enough, I would be tempted to visit Lembert Dome to take some pictures of the meadows.
      • longritchie
        I m pretty sure it crosses 120 and goes by Soda Springs. It feels kind of pointless, unless of course you re a purist. I was when I walked the JMT many years
        Message 3 of 27 , Jul 18, 2013
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          I'm pretty sure it crosses 120 and goes by Soda Springs. It feels kind of pointless, unless of course you're a purist. I was when I walked the JMT many years ago.

          The bigger dilemma comes later if you are resupplying at Muir Trail Ranch. Are you going to take the exit trail to rejoin the JMT or backtrack so you can walk that one mile segment? I won't tell you what I did except to note that my pack was very heavy at that point.



          --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, steve herr <groundhogsteve@...> wrote:
          >
          > I notice that there are differences between the Postholer trace and the Tom Harrison maps routing of the JMT for two sections in Yosemite
          >
          > Postholer takes the cutoff to bypass the Little Yosemite Valley Campground, Harrison map routes through the campground.
          >
          > Postholer skirts by the south side of Tuolumne Meadows complex, Harrison crosses Hwy 120 and generally goes north.
          >
          > Does anybody know which is the official route in each case?
          >
        • robert shattuck
          The bigger dilemma ... Has to be sarcasm, yes....the junction/detour to MTR is again, not a deal breaker or won t really tarnish your purist ethics--not much
          Message 4 of 27 , Jul 18, 2013
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            "The bigger dilemma ..." 

            Has to be sarcasm, yes....the junction/detour to MTR is again, not a deal breaker or won't really tarnish your purist ethics--not much difference in either section of trail, but if you're goi g to let it bug you ...

            Bob

            Sent from my iPhone

            On Jul 18, 2013, at 11:52 AM, "longritchie" <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             



            I'm pretty sure it crosses 120 and goes by Soda Springs. It feels kind of pointless, unless of course you're a purist. I was when I walked the JMT many years ago.

            The bigger dilemma comes later if you are resupplying at Muir Trail Ranch. Are you going to take the exit trail to rejoin the JMT or backtrack so you can walk that one mile segment? I won't tell you what I did except to note that my pack was very heavy at that point.

            --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, steve herr <groundhogsteve@...> wrote:
            >
            > I notice that there are differences between the Postholer trace and the Tom Harrison maps routing of the JMT for two sections in Yosemite
            >
            > Postholer takes the cutoff to bypass the Little Yosemite Valley Campground, Harrison map routes through the campground.
            >
            > Postholer skirts by the south side of Tuolumne Meadows complex, Harrison crosses Hwy 120 and generally goes north.
            >
            > Does anybody know which is the official route in each case?
            >

          • longritchie
            Sarcasm, yes, but also it s true. If you re purist enough to detour to Soda Springs instead of bee-lining to the TM grill then skipping a mile would be an
            Message 5 of 27 , Jul 18, 2013
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              Sarcasm, yes, but also it's true. If you're purist enough to detour to Soda Springs instead of bee-lining to the TM grill then skipping a mile would be an asterisk on your otherwise pure walk. It mattered to me back then.

              There are lots of ways to frame it. What about doing it without resupply? That would be a purist approach of one sort. You'd have to walk past the grill and the smell of cooking burgers.

              Orlando Bartholomew didn't do either of these things but his JMT trip trumped both.


              --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, robert shattuck <bobolonius@...> wrote:
              >
              > "The bigger dilemma ..."
              >
              > Has to be sarcasm, yes....the junction/detour to MTR is again, not a deal breaker or won't really tarnish your purist ethics--not much difference in either section of trail, but if you're goi g to let it bug you ...
              >
              > Bob
              >
              > Sent from my iPhone
              >
              > On Jul 18, 2013, at 11:52 AM, "longritchie" <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > I'm pretty sure it crosses 120 and goes by Soda Springs. It feels kind of pointless, unless of course you're a purist. I was when I walked the JMT many years ago.
              > >
              > > The bigger dilemma comes later if you are resupplying at Muir Trail Ranch. Are you going to take the exit trail to rejoin the JMT or backtrack so you can walk that one mile segment? I won't tell you what I did except to note that my pack was very heavy at that point.
              > >
              > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, steve herr <groundhogsteve@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I notice that there are differences between the Postholer trace and the Tom Harrison maps routing of the JMT for two sections in Yosemite
              > > >
              > > > Postholer takes the cutoff to bypass the Little Yosemite Valley Campground, Harrison map routes through the campground.
              > > >
              > > > Postholer skirts by the south side of Tuolumne Meadows complex, Harrison crosses Hwy 120 and generally goes north.
              > > >
              > > > Does anybody know which is the official route in each case?
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Dave
              Yeah, I ll be the first to concede it s a little OCD ish. But I m probably only going to get to do this trek once, so I want to do it right. When I rode
              Message 6 of 27 , Jul 18, 2013
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                Yeah, I'll be the first to concede it's a little OCD'ish. But I'm probably only going to get to do this trek once, so I want to do it right.

                When I rode across the country by bicycle at age 16, I could have just gone to Isa Lake in Yellowstone, touched the water, and said I had ridden coast to coast, right? (Isa Lake drains to both the Atlantic and the Pacific). Nope. That's cheating. So I used endpoints that really were the Pacific and Atlantic. Not Chesapeake Bay, not where the Delaware River widens out, real honest to goodness ocean.

                And I'm glad I did. And I'll be a lot happier if I do the trail as it was intended with no shortcuts.

                Uhhhh - Is my OCD showing that badly?

                --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, longritchie <no_reply@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Sarcasm, yes, but also it's true. If you're purist enough to detour to Soda Springs instead of bee-lining to the TM grill then skipping a mile would be an asterisk on your otherwise pure walk. It mattered to me back then.
                >
              • robert shattuck
                Dave, You ve got over 211 miles to do it right . . . ponder this though (while I ponder this less than pleasant Pinot ) Will your OCD allow you to not just
                Message 7 of 27 , Jul 18, 2013
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                  Dave, 

                  You've got over 211 miles to do it right . . . ponder this though (while I ponder this less than pleasant Pinot )

                  Will your OCD allow you to not just stop once you get to the official end of the trail––the summit of whitney? 

                  Headlines read;

                  Man refuses to come down from the Summit of Whitney, stating, "it's the official end of the John Muir Trail and my OCD won't let me go any further.  I stop here. " 

                  . . . or something like that. 


                  BOB

                  http://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480



                • longritchie
                  I ll be a lot happier if I do the trail as it was intended In the latter part of the nineteenth century an adolescent named Theodore Solomons thought it
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jul 18, 2013
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                    "I'll be a lot happier if I do the trail as it was intended"

                    In the latter part of the nineteenth century an adolescent named Theodore Solomons thought it would be cool to have a trail that ran parallel to the crest. He later wrote, "The idea of a crest-parallel trail came to me one day while herding my uncle's cattle in an immense unfenced alfalfa field near Fresno. It was 1884 and I was 14."

                    Some might argue that his vision was not fully realized as much of the Muir Trail is in the lower parts of the Sierra. It's parallel perhaps, but it drops low too often and misses much of the grandeur of the higher elevations.

                    In any case, I wonder if Mr. Solomons intended for us to skip the beautiful views of the Mist trail and slog through the horse manure on the alternative, and then detour through Tuolomne Meadows to visit a tiny spring. I'll bet he would have wanted us to go straight to the grill and order a burger and fries. That's my interpretation anyway.

                    But I get the OCD thing all too well. I'm also afflicted. I think that's okay as long as you recognize it for the silliness that it is. For that matter, there's really no rational reason to walk the JMT in the first place.



                    --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <groundhogsteve@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Yeah, I'll be the first to concede it's a little OCD'ish. But I'm probably only going to get to do this trek once, so I want to do it right.
                    >
                    > When I rode across the country by bicycle at age 16, I could have just gone to Isa Lake in Yellowstone, touched the water, and said I had ridden coast to coast, right? (Isa Lake drains to both the Atlantic and the Pacific). Nope. That's cheating. So I used endpoints that really were the Pacific and Atlantic. Not Chesapeake Bay, not where the Delaware River widens out, real honest to goodness ocean.
                    >
                    > And I'm glad I did. And I'll be a lot happier if I do the trail as it was intended with no shortcuts.
                    >
                    > Uhhhh - Is my OCD showing that badly?
                    >
                    > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, longritchie <no_reply@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Sarcasm, yes, but also it's true. If you're purist enough to detour to Soda Springs instead of bee-lining to the TM grill then skipping a mile would be an asterisk on your otherwise pure walk. It mattered to me back then.
                    > >
                    >
                  • Chris
                    LOL. That sums it up for me. While I do understand the purist approach, my main goal to see what there is to see along the way. That is my reason for
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jul 18, 2013
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                      LOL. That sums it up for me. While I do understand the purist approach, my main goal to see what there is to see along the way. That is my reason for walking the official loop through Tuolumne Meadows, and also my reason for diverting off the JMT to soak in the Iva Bell Hot Springs.

                      Chris.

                      --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, longritchie <no_reply@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > For that matter, there's
                      really no rational reason to walk the JMT in the first place.
                      >
                    • robert shattuck
                      . . . and also my reason for diverting off the JMT to soak in the Iva Bell Hot Springs. You could divert off the JMT and walk backwards to Iva bell . . . .
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jul 18, 2013
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                        " . . . and also my reason for diverting off the JMT to soak in the Iva Bell Hot Springs."


                        You could divert off the JMT and walk backwards to Iva bell . . . . are you also going to hit Blaney? Much less time going backwards . . . 

                        BOB
                        http://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480


                      • John
                        Steve The official JMT crosses 120 and goes by Parsons Lodge and Soda Springs. Somewhere on here there is a thread about this. IMO if you don t walk across TM
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jul 19, 2013
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                          Steve

                          The official JMT crosses 120 and goes by Parsons Lodge and Soda Springs. Somewhere on here there is a thread about this. IMO if you don't walk across TM then, well, then you don't see it. There are kind of two "purist" ways to walk the JMT:  follow the JMT, or  follow wildness! I've done it both ways. By staying south of 120, and if you don't exit to resupply, you can actually walk from Yosemite Valley to Whitney Portal ~220 miles without crossing a road or eating a hamburger!

                          If you are JMT obsessed, you will need to start at the LeConte Memorial in YV and make your way thru Curry Village which was built on top of the trail, to get to Happy Isle. Also, you'll need to pay close attention and NOT follow the PCT out of Reds. The JMT and PCT are different alignments from Reds Meadow to Crater Meadow.

                          If you are fortunate, you can take an older abandoned alignment from lower Crater Meadow to Upper Crater Meadow and stil see a really cool old enameled JMT sign in a tree (if it didn't blow over in last years wind event) see Walk the Sky page 48. It's pretty hard to find.

                          Either way, it's a fine walk!

                          JD
                          Walk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trail
                        • Chris
                          Hi Robert: Blaney HS: Yes, I m planning to stop there for the night... part of my MTR resupply. Iva Bell HS: Not sure what you mean about going backwards.
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jul 19, 2013
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                            Hi Robert:

                            Blaney HS: Yes, I'm planning to stop there for the night... part of my MTR resupply.

                            Iva Bell HS: Not sure what you mean about going backwards. I'm heading SOBO, and I was planning to walk due south out of Red's Meadow to Fish Creek, then up the Cascade Valley to Iva Bell HS. However, are you suggesting I stay on the JMT all the way past Tully Hole, then backtrack northwest down Cascade Valley to Iva Bell? I'm interested in options for stopping at Iva Bell and still not miss Virginia Lake.

                            Thanks...

                            Thanks,

                            Chris.

                            --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, robert shattuck <bobolonius@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > " . . . and also my reason for diverting off the JMT to soak in the Iva Bell Hot Springs."
                            >
                            > You could divert off the JMT and walk backwards to Iva bell . . . . are you also going to hit Blaney? Much less time going backwards . . .
                            > BOB
                            > http://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480
                            >
                          • Theresa Gilliland
                            I heard the forest department closed the hot springs.... ciao,
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jul 20, 2013
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                              I heard the forest department closed the hot springs....
                              ciao,

                              TOn 7/20/2013 12:37 AM, Chris wrote:
                               

                              Hi Robert:

                              Blaney HS: Yes, I'm planning to stop there for the night... part of my MTR resupply.

                              Iva Bell HS: Not sure what you mean about going backwards. I'm heading SOBO, and I was planning to walk due south out of Red's Meadow to Fish Creek, then up the Cascade Valley to Iva Bell HS. However, are you suggesting I stay on the JMT all the way past Tully Hole, then backtrack northwest down Cascade Valley to Iva Bell? I'm interested in options for stopping at Iva Bell and still not miss Virginia Lake.

                              Thanks...

                              Thanks,

                              Chris.

                              --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, robert shattuck <bobolonius@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > " . . . and also my reason for diverting off the JMT to soak in the Iva Bell Hot Springs."
                              >
                              > You could divert off the JMT and walk backwards to Iva bell . . . . are you also going to hit Blaney? Much less time going backwards . . .
                              > BOB
                              > http://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480
                              >


                            • brucelem12
                              Which Hot Springs? That s very valuable info...I just scheduled a pre JMT hike down to Iva Bell for a week from now. Any link or is this just word of mouth?
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jul 20, 2013
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                                Which Hot Springs? That's very valuable info...I just scheduled a pre JMT hike down to Iva Bell for a week from now. Any link or is this just word of mouth?
                                Bruce

                                --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Theresa Gilliland <Theresa@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I heard the forest department closed the hot springs....
                                > ciao,
                                >
                                > TOn 7/20/2013 12:37 AM, Chris wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hi Robert:
                                > >
                                > > Blaney HS: Yes, I'm planning to stop there for the night... part of my
                                > > MTR resupply.
                                > >
                                > > Iva Bell HS: Not sure what you mean about going backwards. I'm heading
                                > > SOBO, and I was planning to walk due south out of Red's Meadow to Fish
                                > > Creek, then up the Cascade Valley to Iva Bell HS. However, are you
                                > > suggesting I stay on the JMT all the way past Tully Hole, then
                                > > backtrack northwest down Cascade Valley to Iva Bell? I'm interested in
                                > > options for stopping at Iva Bell and still not miss Virginia Lake.
                                > >
                                > > Thanks...
                                > >
                                > > Thanks,
                                > >
                                > > Chris.
                                > >
                                > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                                > > <mailto:johnmuirtrail%40yahoogroups.com>, robert shattuck
                                > > <bobolonius@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > " . . . and also my reason for diverting off the JMT to soak in the
                                > > Iva Bell Hot Springs."
                                > > >
                                > > > You could divert off the JMT and walk backwards to Iva bell . . . .
                                > > are you also going to hit Blaney? Much less time going backwards . . .
                                > > > BOB
                                > > > http://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • robert shattuck
                                Chris, yes. If you head up fish creek rather than the JMT you ll have no problem hitting Iva bell. My assumption was you be on the JMT--then you d have to to
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jul 20, 2013
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                                  Chris, yes. If you head up fish creek rather than the JMT you'll have no problem hitting Iva bell. My assumption was you be on the JMT--then you'd have to to hit the junction and go north again. My guess regarding which hot springs might be closed, would be Iva bell. 

                                  No one who's done the trail so far this season has mentioned going there. Most don't make the backwards detour, but lots hit blaney since its right there at MTR . 

                                  Bob
                                  Sent from my iPhone

                                  On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:40 PM, "Chris" <cehauser1@...> wrote:

                                   

                                  Hi Robert:

                                  Blaney HS: Yes, I'm planning to stop there for the night... part of my MTR resupply.

                                  Iva Bell HS: Not sure what you mean about going backwards. I'm heading SOBO, and I was planning to walk due south out of Red's Meadow to Fish Creek, then up the Cascade Valley to Iva Bell HS. However, are you suggesting I stay on the JMT all the way past Tully Hole, then backtrack northwest down Cascade Valley to Iva Bell? I'm interested in options for stopping at Iva Bell and still not miss Virginia Lake.

                                  Thanks...

                                  Thanks,

                                  Chris.

                                  --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, robert shattuck <bobolonius@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > " . . . and also my reason for diverting off the JMT to soak in the Iva Bell Hot Springs."
                                  >
                                  > You could divert off the JMT and walk backwards to Iva bell . . . . are you also going to hit Blaney? Much less time going backwards . . .
                                  > BOB
                                  > http://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480
                                  >

                                • Chris
                                  Robert: Sounds like you are suggesting what I was planning to do: From Red s Meadow, detour off JMT, hike due south down to Fish Creek, then east upstream to
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jul 20, 2013
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                                    Robert:
                                    Sounds like you are suggesting what I was planning to do: From Red's Meadow, detour off JMT, hike due south down to Fish Creek, then east upstream to Iva Bell. Afterwards, hike east up Cascade Canyon to rejoin JMT south of Tully Hole.

                                    Theresa Gilliland:
                                    Can you please elaborate on what you said about the hot springs being closed? Iva Bell, or another location? Is it possible this statement is derived from when the hot spring showers at Red's Meadow were closed? Thanks.

                                    Chris.





                                    --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, robert shattuck <bobolonius@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Chris, yes. If you head up fish creek rather than the JMT you'll have no problem hitting Iva bell. My assumption was you be on the JMT--then you'd have to to hit the junction and go north again. My guess regarding which hot springs might be closed, would be Iva bell.
                                    >
                                    > No one who's done the trail so far this season has mentioned going there. Most don't make the backwards detour, but lots hit blaney since its right there at MTR .
                                    >
                                    > Bob
                                    > Sent from my iPhone
                                    >
                                    > On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:40 PM, "Chris" <cehauser1@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                  • Dave
                                    Thanks for the tip about LeConte to HI. I can do that as my last warm up walk the evening before I start.
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jul 20, 2013
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                                      Thanks for the tip about LeConte to HI. I can do that as my last warm up walk the evening before I start.

                                      --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" <johndittli@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Steve
                                      > The official JMT crosses 120 and goes by Parsons Lodge and Soda Springs.
                                      > Somewhere on here there is a thread about this. IMO if you don't walk
                                      > across TM then, well, then you don't see it. There are kind of two
                                      > "purist" ways to walk the JMT: follow the JMT, or follow wildness!
                                      > I've done it both ways. By staying south of 120, and if you don't exit
                                      > to resupply, you can actually walk from Yosemite Valley to Whitney
                                      > Portal ~220 miles without crossing a road or eating a hamburger!
                                      > If you are JMT obsessed, you will need to start at the LeConte Memorial
                                      > in YV and make your way thru Curry Village which was built on top of the
                                      > trail, to get to Happy Isle. Also, you'll need to pay close attention
                                      > and NOT follow the PCT out of Reds. The JMT and PCT are different
                                      > alignments from Reds Meadow to Crater Meadow.
                                      > If you are fortunate, you can take an older abandoned alignment from
                                      > lower Crater Meadow to Upper Crater Meadow and stil see a really cool
                                      > old enameled JMT sign in a tree (if it didn't blow over in last years
                                      > wind event) see Walk the Sky page 48. It's pretty hard to find.
                                      > Either way, it's a fine walk!
                                      > JDWalk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trailsee book here
                                      > <http://www.johndittli.com>
                                      >
                                    • Theresa
                                      Red meadows rep told me the hot springs where closed by the forestry dept...unknown if all where closed.  Ciao Namaste, Theresa Gilliland 505-797-2993 hm
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jul 20, 2013
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                                        Red meadows rep told me the hot springs where closed by the forestry dept...unknown if all where closed. 


                                        Ciao
                                        Namaste,
                                        Theresa Gilliland

                                        505-797-2993 hm
                                        530-409-1659 ce
                                        182 Big Horn Ridge Dr NE
                                        Albuquerque NM 87122

                                        Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone



                                        -------- Original message --------
                                        From: Chris <cehauser1@...>
                                        Date:
                                        To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [John Muir Trail] Re: Trail routing in Yosemite for purists


                                         

                                        Robert:
                                        Sounds like you are suggesting what I was planning to do: From Red's Meadow, detour off JMT, hike due south down to Fish Creek, then east upstream to Iva Bell. Afterwards, hike east up Cascade Canyon to rejoin JMT south of Tully Hole.

                                        Theresa Gilliland:
                                        Can you please elaborate on what you said about the hot springs being closed? Iva Bell, or another location? Is it possible this statement is derived from when the hot spring showers at Red's Meadow were closed? Thanks.

                                        Chris.

                                        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, robert shattuck <bobolonius@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Chris, yes. If you head up fish creek rather than the JMT you'll have no problem hitting Iva bell. My assumption was you be on the JMT--then you'd have to to hit the junction and go north again. My guess regarding which hot springs might be closed, would be Iva bell.
                                        >
                                        > No one who's done the trail so far this season has mentioned going there. Most don't make the backwards detour, but lots hit blaney since its right there at MTR .
                                        >
                                        > Bob
                                        > Sent from my iPhone
                                        >
                                        > On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:40 PM, "Chris" <cehauser1@...> wrote:
                                        >

                                      • ravi_jmt2013
                                        ... It looks like the Harrison maps have the JMT and PCT on the same alignment south of Reds Meadow. Is the original JMT alignment the one that heads east out
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jul 21, 2013
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                                          --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" <johndittli@...> wrote:
                                          >, you'll need to pay close attention
                                          > and NOT follow the PCT out of Reds.

                                          It looks like the Harrison maps have the JMT and PCT on the same alignment south of Reds Meadow. Is the original JMT alignment the one that heads east out of Red's toward Mammoth Pass and eventually goes over Red Cones before rejoining the PCT at Crater Meadow?
                                        • John
                                          That is correct. There are only a few maps left that show (label) the historic routing: the 15 USGS Devils Postpile quadrangle (out of print) and the
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Jul 21, 2013
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                                            That is correct. There are only a few maps left that show (label) the historic routing: the 15' USGS Devils Postpile quadrangle (out of print) and the interagency John Muir Wilderness/SEKI map set. What I'm not sure of is if the Inyo NF has cleared that segment of trail since the huge blow down of Nov. 2011.

                                            John
                                            --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "ravi_jmt2013" wrote:
                                            >
                                            > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" johndittli@ wrote:
                                            > >, you'll need to pay close attention
                                            > > and NOT follow the PCT out of Reds.
                                            >
                                            > It looks like the Harrison maps have the JMT and PCT on the same alignment south of Reds Meadow. Is the original JMT alignment the one that heads east out of Red's toward Mammoth Pass and eventually goes over Red Cones before rejoining the PCT at Crater Meadow?
                                            >
                                          • robert shattuck
                                            All, I ve never been so curious or so in search of the absolute JMT purist thing, but I can tell you---there are two trails headed south out of reds. ... The
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Jul 21, 2013
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                                              All, 

                                              I've never been so curious or so in search of the absolute JMT purist thing,  but I can tell you---there are two trails headed south out of reds. 

                                              --- don't have the maps in front of me, but the main "official" JMT picks up down around the horse stables--just ask someone in spurs, if you can't figure it out....it then eventually goes between the two cones and if you're not paying attention, you'll almost not know that your between them. 

                                              The other trail, be it of whichever designation, originates just behind the restaurant there ... I have taken this many a time as without it being any more difficult than the other, it gives/ gave you easy access to the top of the major cone.  

                                              Last year, they did not clear the major damage brought about by bad weather and I heard that the plan was to not do anything and close that section. 

                                              You can still take that trail and do the mammoth lakes junction which will then take you to a few lakes whose names I do not recall, but the trail heading to the top of the cone and down to Crater Meadow, is probably closed and way too much effort to try and navigate due to the many downed trees.

                                              I enjoyed the easy access to the top of the cone----you can still get up there by just taking that short section on the Map there, but if you manage to find the wrong and unofficial trail going up, you're really going to get a workout.

                                              Bob


                                              Sent from my iPhone

                                              On Jul 21, 2013, at 5:58 AM, "ravi_jmt2013" <ravi@...> wrote:

                                               

                                              --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" <johndittli@...> wrote:
                                              >, you'll need to pay close attention
                                              > and NOT follow the PCT out of Reds.

                                              It looks like the Harrison maps have the JMT and PCT on the same alignment south of Reds Meadow. Is the original JMT alignment the one that heads east out of Red's toward Mammoth Pass and eventually goes over Red Cones before rejoining the PCT at Crater Meadow?

                                            • Chris
                                              Theresa: Thanks for clarifying. We were discussing Iva Bell Hot Spring, which is close to Red s Meadow, but not the same location. About 10 miles to the
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Jul 21, 2013
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                                                Theresa:

                                                Thanks for clarifying. We were discussing Iva Bell Hot Spring, which is close to Red's Meadow, but not the same location. About 10 miles to the south, and not directly accessible from the JMT. I think Red's Meadow now has an alternative shower facility somewhere else now.

                                                By the way, most of the area around Red's Meadow is within a National Forest, so it is under the jurisdiction of the US Forest Service. The California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection is a different agency.

                                                Thanks again,

                                                Chris.

                                                --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Theresa <Theresa@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Red meadows rep told me the hot springs where closed by the forestry dept...unknown if all where closed. 
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Ciao
                                                > Namaste,
                                                > Theresa Gilliland
                                                >
                                                > 505-797-2993 hm
                                                > 530-409-1659 ce
                                                > 182 Big Horn Ridge Dr NE
                                                > Albuquerque NM 87122
                                                >
                                                > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
                                                >
                                                > -------- Original message --------
                                                > From: Chris <cehauser1@...>
                                                > Date:
                                                > To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Subject: [John Muir Trail] Re: Trail routing in Yosemite for purists
                                                >
                                                > Robert:
                                                > Sounds like you are suggesting what I was planning to do: From Red's Meadow, detour off JMT, hike due south down to Fish Creek, then east upstream to Iva Bell. Afterwards, hike east up Cascade Canyon to rejoin JMT south of Tully Hole.
                                                >
                                                > Theresa Gilliland:
                                                > Can you please elaborate on what you said about the hot springs being closed? Iva Bell, or another location? Is it possible this statement is derived from when the hot spring showers at Red's Meadow were closed? Thanks.
                                                >
                                                > Chris.
                                                >
                                                > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, robert shattuck <bobolonius@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Chris, yes. If you head up fish creek rather than the JMT you'll have no problem hitting Iva bell. My assumption was you be on the JMT--then you'd have to to hit the junction and go north again. My guess regarding which hot springs might be closed, would be Iva bell.
                                                > >
                                                > > No one who's done the trail so far this season has mentioned going there. Most don't make the backwards detour, but lots hit blaney since its right there at MTR .
                                                > >
                                                > > Bob
                                                > > Sent from my iPhone
                                                > >
                                                > > On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:40 PM, "Chris" <cehauser1@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                >
                                              • knaushouse
                                                The posts regarding the true or pure route to the JMT through the Tuolumne Meadows area got my curiosity going; what was the history on this? So, this weekend
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Jul 22, 2013
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                                                  The posts regarding the true or pure route to the JMT through the Tuolumne Meadows area got my curiosity going; what was the history on this? So, this weekend – as a break from sorting snickers bars, Mountain House and oatmeal packets into resupply boxes – I pulled out my vintage "Guide to the John Muir Trail and the High Sierra Region" by Walter A Starr, Jr. (3rd Edition, 1946, published by the Sierra Club) to see what the word was back then. A few points of note:

                                                  • Page 16 – "The starting point in Yosemite is the Le Conte Memorial Lodge of the Sierra Club." (This was noted on a previous group post.)
                                                  • Page 18 –(Route Description) "… continue to the Tuolumne Meadows (8555' – 3.0). We proceed eastward along the southern side of the valley to Tuolumne Meadows Ranger Station (8770' – 2.5)"

                                                  Also noteworthy are the descriptions of several alternate routes and a note in the preface that "… roads and trails change."

                                                  I have scanned and attached as a pdf file select text from the book and sections of its accompanying map for reference. Note on the map the how the red line of the trail stays south of what is now Hwy 120, south of Soda Springs. Of course, trails change. Also, what constitutes 'official' over what timeframe?

                                                  Personally, I'm in the "hike your own hike" camp on this. Upon arrival I plan to take the southern route, grab a campsite at the backpackers' camp, grab a burger, and head to the Post Office for my resupply box. After dinner and a hops-infused malt beverage, I expect to stroll the northern loop in the evening and hopefully catch a spectacular sunset with the meadows in the foreground and colorful clouds in the background. Of course, others' approaches will differ.

                                                  Best regards, Chris
                                                  ---+---+---+---
                                                  --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <groundhogsteve@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Thanks for the tip about LeConte to HI. I can do that as my last warm up walk the evening before I start.
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" <johndittli@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Steve
                                                  > > The official JMT crosses 120 and goes by Parsons Lodge and Soda Springs.
                                                • John
                                                  Hi Chris This is very interesting. I couldn t find your attached pdf. I have mine in front of me now (10th edition 1967) and the map clearly shows the JMT (red
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Jul 22, 2013
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                                                    Hi Chris

                                                    This is very interesting. I couldn't find your attached pdf. I have mine in front of me now (10th edition 1967) and the map clearly shows the JMT (red line) crossing the Tuolumne River to Soda Springs before heading east and crossing back over the Tuolumne east of Elizabeth Creek. The words "Soda Spring" are placed well north of the actual location and if one looks closely (in my case with reading glasses!) you can see the dotted line with an arrow indicating the actual location of the spring right next to the trail. If yours indeed shows it staying south of the Tuolumne I really need to see it!!!!

                                                    The trail south of 120 didn't exist in Starr's time and doesn't show on any maps until the 7.5' edition released in the early '80's (it's not on  the earlier 15' map). From my research, the south side trail wasn't built until the '70's and the NPS (though lacking in signage), still considers the original alignment  the JMT. There was also a short lived effort to re-establish the trail from LeConte Memorial to HI. 

                                                    There is no "official" oversight of the JMT, so it's alignment can change at the whim of managing agencies; hence the old enameled Muir Trail sign that stands lost in the forest south of Red Cones. But in the TM case, the trail was moved by errors in cartography rather than the Park Service. 

                                                    But I'm with you, walk your own walk. As I've said before, the south side trail allows one to walk 220 miles without ever even seeing a road, and that is pretty cool.

                                                    JD
                                                    Walk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trail

                                                    --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "knaushouse" wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > The posts regarding the true or pure route to the JMT through the Tuolumne Meadows area got my curiosity going; what was the history on this? So, this weekend – as a break from sorting snickers bars, Mountain House and oatmeal packets into resupply boxes – I pulled out my vintage "Guide to the John Muir Trail and the High Sierra Region" by Walter A Starr, Jr. (3rd Edition, 1946, published by the Sierra Club) to see what the word was back then. A few points of note:
                                                    >
                                                    > • Page 16 – "The starting point in Yosemite is the Le Conte Memorial Lodge of the Sierra Club." (This was noted on a previous group post.)
                                                    > • Page 18 –(Route Description) "… continue to the Tuolumne Meadows (8555' – 3.0). We proceed eastward along the southern side of the valley to Tuolumne Meadows Ranger Station (8770' – 2.5)"
                                                    >
                                                    > Also noteworthy are the descriptions of several alternate routes and a note in the preface that "… roads and trails change."
                                                    >
                                                    > I have scanned and attached as a pdf file select text from the book and sections of its accompanying map for reference. Note on the map the how the red line of the trail stays south of what is now Hwy 120, south of Soda Springs. Of course, trails change. Also, what constitutes 'official' over what timeframe?
                                                    >
                                                    > Personally, I'm in the "hike your own hike" camp on this. Upon arrival I plan to take the southern route, grab a campsite at the backpackers' camp, grab a burger, and head to the Post Office for my resupply box. After dinner and a hops-infused malt beverage, I expect to stroll the northern loop in the evening and hopefully catch a spectacular sunset with the meadows in the foreground and colorful clouds in the background. Of course, others' approaches will differ.
                                                    >
                                                    > Best regards, Chris
                                                    > ---+---+---+---
                                                    > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" groundhogsteve@ wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Thanks for the tip about LeConte to HI. I can do that as my last warm up walk the evening before I start.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" wrote:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Steve
                                                    > > > The official JMT crosses 120 and goes by Parsons Lodge and Soda Springs.
                                                    >
                                                  • ravi_jmt2013
                                                    I have the Starr guide 12th revised edition, copyright 1974 and the attached map is copyright 1970. It definitely shows the JMT going north of Tioga Road like
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Jul 22, 2013
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                                                      I have the Starr guide 12th revised edition, copyright 1974 and the attached map is copyright 1970. It definitely shows the JMT going north of Tioga Road like the modern Harrison map. This map also has the dotted line with the arrow! The map differs from the Harrison map on the Red Cones segment and shows the JMT taking the trail toward Mammoth Pass from Reds before turning back to the South.

                                                      --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" <johndittli@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Hi Chris
                                                      > This is very interesting. I couldn't find your attached pdf. I have mine
                                                      > in front of me now (10th edition 1967) and the map clearly shows the JMT
                                                      > (red line) crossing the Tuolumne River to Soda Springs before heading
                                                      > east and crossing back over the Tuolumne east of Elizabeth Creek. The
                                                      > words "Soda Spring" are placed well north of the actual location and if
                                                      > one looks closely (in my case with reading glasses!) you can see the
                                                      > dotted line with an arrow indicating the actual location of the spring
                                                      > right next to the trail. If yours indeed shows it staying south of the
                                                      > Tuolumne I really need to see it!!!!
                                                      > The trail south of 120 didn't exist in Starr's time and doesn't show on
                                                      > any maps until the 7.5' edition released in the early '80's (it's not on
                                                      > the earlier 15' map). From my research, the south side trail wasn't
                                                      > built until the '70's and the NPS (though lacking in signage), still
                                                      > considers the original alignment the JMT. There was also a short lived
                                                      > effort to re-establish the trail from LeConte Memorial to HI.
                                                      > There is no "official" oversight of the JMT, so it's alignment can
                                                      > change at the whim of managing agencies; hence the old enameled Muir
                                                      > Trail sign that stands lost in the forest south of Red Cones. But in the
                                                      > TM case, the trail was moved by errors in cartography rather than the
                                                      > Park Service.
                                                      > But I'm with you, walk your own walk. As I've said before, the south
                                                      > side trail allows one to walk 220 miles without ever even seeing a road,
                                                      > and that is pretty cool.
                                                      > JDWalk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trailsee book here
                                                      > <http://www.johndittli.com>
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "knaushouse" wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > The posts regarding the true or pure route to the JMT through the
                                                      > Tuolumne Meadows area got my curiosity going; what was the history on
                                                      > this? So, this weekend – as a break from sorting snickers bars,
                                                      > Mountain House and oatmeal packets into resupply boxes – I pulled
                                                      > out my vintage "Guide to the John Muir Trail and the High Sierra Region"
                                                      > by Walter A Starr, Jr. (3rd Edition, 1946, published by the Sierra Club)
                                                      > to see what the word was back then. A few points of note:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > • Page 16 – "The starting point in Yosemite is the Le Conte
                                                      > Memorial Lodge of the Sierra Club." (This was noted on a previous group
                                                      > post.)
                                                      > > • Page 18 –(Route Description) "… continue to the Tuolumne
                                                      > Meadows (8555' – 3.0). We proceed eastward along the southern side
                                                      > of the valley to Tuolumne Meadows Ranger Station (8770' – 2.5)"
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Also noteworthy are the descriptions of several alternate routes and a
                                                      > note in the preface that "… roads and trails change."
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I have scanned and attached as a pdf file select text from the book
                                                      > and sections of its accompanying map for reference. Note on the map the
                                                      > how the red line of the trail stays south of what is now Hwy 120, south
                                                      > of Soda Springs. Of course, trails change. Also, what constitutes
                                                      > 'official' over what timeframe?
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Personally, I'm in the "hike your own hike" camp on this. Upon
                                                      > arrival I plan to take the southern route, grab a campsite at the
                                                      > backpackers' camp, grab a burger, and head to the Post Office for my
                                                      > resupply box. After dinner and a hops-infused malt beverage, I expect
                                                      > to stroll the northern loop in the evening and hopefully catch a
                                                      > spectacular sunset with the meadows in the foreground and colorful
                                                      > clouds in the background. Of course, others' approaches will differ.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Best regards, Chris
                                                      > > ---+---+---+---
                                                      > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" groundhogsteve@ wrote:
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Thanks for the tip about LeConte to HI. I can do that as my last
                                                      > warm up walk the evening before I start.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" wrote:
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > Steve
                                                      > > > > The official JMT crosses 120 and goes by Parsons Lodge and Soda
                                                      > Springs.
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                    • John
                                                      Here is the text from my Starr; ...we meet and cross the Tioga Road where the old road coming across the meadow from the river meets it. Now only a trail, we
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Jul 22, 2013
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                                                        Here is the text from my Starr; "...we meet and cross the Tioga Road where the old road coming across the meadow from the river meets it. Now only a trail, we follow it across the meadow and cross the Tuolumne River on the old Bridge to the north bank... Parson's Lodge"

                                                        I'm now wondering if the very oldest, original alignment may have actually traversed south of the river where 120 is now. It appears the original Tioga Road actually crossed at Parsons!! That alignment may have been destroyed when they realigned the road, thereby "switching" alignments! This is pretty exciting (for me anyway). I sure would like to see a copy of your map!

                                                        Thanks

                                                        John
                                                        Walk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trail


                                                        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > Hi Chris
                                                        > This is very interesting. I couldn't find your attached pdf. I have mine
                                                        > in front of me now (10th edition 1967) and the map clearly shows the JMT
                                                        > (red line) crossing the Tuolumne River to Soda Springs before heading
                                                        > east and crossing back over the Tuolumne east of Elizabeth Creek. The
                                                        > words "Soda Spring" are placed well north of the actual location and if
                                                        > one looks closely (in my case with reading glasses!) you can see the
                                                        > dotted line with an arrow indicating the actual location of the spring
                                                        > right next to the trail. If yours indeed shows it staying south of the
                                                        > Tuolumne I really need to see it!!!!
                                                        > The trail south of 120 didn't exist in Starr's time and doesn't show on
                                                        > any maps until the 7.5' edition released in the early '80's (it's not on
                                                        > the earlier 15' map). From my research, the south side trail wasn't
                                                        > built until the '70's and the NPS (though lacking in signage), still
                                                        > considers the original alignment the JMT. There was also a short lived
                                                        > effort to re-establish the trail from LeConte Memorial to HI.
                                                        > There is no "official" oversight of the JMT, so it's alignment can
                                                        > change at the whim of managing agencies; hence the old enameled Muir
                                                        > Trail sign that stands lost in the forest south of Red Cones. But in the
                                                        > TM case, the trail was moved by errors in cartography rather than the
                                                        > Park Service.
                                                        > But I'm with you, walk your own walk. As I've said before, the south
                                                        > side trail allows one to walk 220 miles without ever even seeing a road,
                                                        > and that is pretty cool.
                                                        > JDWalk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trailsee book here
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "knaushouse" wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > The posts regarding the true or pure route to the JMT through the
                                                        > Tuolumne Meadows area got my curiosity going; what was the history on
                                                        > this? So, this weekend – as a break from sorting snickers bars,
                                                        > Mountain House and oatmeal packets into resupply boxes – I pulled
                                                        > out my vintage "Guide to the John Muir Trail and the High Sierra Region"
                                                        > by Walter A Starr, Jr. (3rd Edition, 1946, published by the Sierra Club)
                                                        > to see what the word was back then. A few points of note:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > • Page 16 – "The starting point in Yosemite is the Le Conte
                                                        > Memorial Lodge of the Sierra Club." (This was noted on a previous group
                                                        > post.)
                                                        > > • Page 18 –(Route Description) "… continue to the Tuolumne
                                                        > Meadows (8555' – 3.0). We proceed eastward along the southern side
                                                        > of the valley to Tuolumne Meadows Ranger Station (8770' – 2.5)"
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Also noteworthy are the descriptions of several alternate routes and a
                                                        > note in the preface that "… roads and trails change."
                                                        > >
                                                        > > I have scanned and attached as a pdf file select text from the book
                                                        > and sections of its accompanying map for reference. Note on the map the
                                                        > how the red line of the trail stays south of what is now Hwy 120, south
                                                        > of Soda Springs. Of course, trails change. Also, what constitutes
                                                        > 'official' over what timeframe?
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Personally, I'm in the "hike your own hike" camp on this. Upon
                                                        > arrival I plan to take the southern route, grab a campsite at the
                                                        > backpackers' camp, grab a burger, and head to the Post Office for my
                                                        > resupply box. After dinner and a hops-infused malt beverage, I expect
                                                        > to stroll the northern loop in the evening and hopefully catch a
                                                        > spectacular sunset with the meadows in the foreground and colorful
                                                        > clouds in the background. Of course, others' approaches will differ.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Best regards, Chris
                                                        > > ---+---+---+---
                                                        > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" groundhogsteve@ wrote:
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Thanks for the tip about LeConte to HI. I can do that as my last
                                                        > warm up walk the evening before I start.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" wrote:
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Steve
                                                        > > > > The official JMT crosses 120 and goes by Parsons Lodge and Soda
                                                        > Springs.
                                                        > >
                                                        >
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