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Re: [John Muir Trail] Sierra National Forest - Home

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  • brucelem12
    I m reading all this with great interest, because I ve always been confused about the assorted wilderness/park/forest area boundaries, and assorted maps seem
    Message 1 of 22 , Jul 2, 2013
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      I'm reading all this with great interest, because I've always been confused about the assorted wilderness/park/forest area boundaries, and assorted maps seem to provide conflicting info, so thank you John and Roleigh for your research!

      Is the following correct?

      The following are all the agencies which govern/manage the contiguous uninterrupted area between Yosemite and Kings Canyon, and none of them overlap:
      -Yosemite National Park
      -Sierra National Forest
      -Sequoia National Forest
      -Inyo National Forest
      -Sequoia National Park and Kings Canyon National Park (managed by one agency)

      The following are all subsets of the above, (crossing several in some cases and subsets of subsets in some cases), and do not have their own governing agencies:
      -Devils Postpile National Monument
      -Ansel Adams Wilderness
      -John Muir Wilderness
      -Minaret Wilderness
      -Monarch Wilderness
      -Fill in the blank here Wilderness

      Bruce
    • John
      I havent been following this, but the list below isn t quite right. SoBo Yosemite National Park (YOSE) (Dept Interior)Ansel Adams Wilderness (Inyo Nat l Forest
      Message 2 of 22 , Jul 2, 2013
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        I havent been following this, but the list below isn't quite right.

        SoBo

        Yosemite National Park (YOSE) (Dept Interior)
        Ansel Adams Wilderness (Inyo Nat'l Forest Dept Agriculture)
        Devils Postpile National Monument (DFPO) (Interior)
        John Muir Wilderness (Sierra National Forest, administered by Inyo to Silver Pass (Agriculture)
        John Muir Wilderness (Sierra National Forest) to Piute Creek (Agriculture)
        Kings Canyon National Park (SEKI) to Forester Pass (Interior)
        Sequoia National Park (SEKI) to Whitney (Interior)
        John Muir Wilderness (Inyo) Trail Crest to WP

        Minaret Wilderness is the pre 1984 California Wilderness act name for Ansel Adams Wilderness

        JD
        Walk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trail

        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, brucelem12 wrote:
        >
        > I'm reading all this with great interest, because I've always been confused about the assorted wilderness/park/forest area boundaries, and assorted maps seem to provide conflicting info, so thank you John and Roleigh for your research!
        >
        > Is the following correct?
        >
        > The following are all the agencies which govern/manage the contiguous uninterrupted area between Yosemite and Kings Canyon, and none of them overlap:
        > -Yosemite National Park
        > -Sierra National Forest
        > -Sequoia National Forest
        > -Inyo National Forest
        > -Sequoia National Park and Kings Canyon National Park (managed by one agency)
        >
        > The following are all subsets of the above, (crossing several in some cases and subsets of subsets in some cases), and do not have their own governing agencies:
        > -Devils Postpile National Monument
        > -Ansel Adams Wilderness
        > -John Muir Wilderness
        > -Minaret Wilderness
        > -Monarch Wilderness
        > -Fill in the blank here Wilderness
        >
        > Bruce
        >
      • jyeider
        I ve been reading this fire alcohol stove open flame issue, and unfortunately it s darn clear. No one would intentionaly start a fire, but rules apply to all
        Message 3 of 22 , Jul 2, 2013
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          I've been reading this fire alcohol stove open flame issue, and unfortunately it's darn clear.
          No one would intentionaly start a fire, but rules apply to all of us. 
          How would we feel if we  had one get away from us and burn up our joy.
          The consicuences,  blame and shame to our group would be very bad.
          Yes it's going to cost some of us $100 bucks or so for a new stove, and yes add around 12 ounces,  but weighing the give and take lets just comply and enjoy our Muir trail and move on to hiking.
          Just a thought....
          Jeffery 


          Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone



          -------- Original message --------
          From: John <johndittli@...>
          Date:
          To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Sierra National Forest - Home


           

          I havent been following this, but the list below isn't quite right.


          SoBo

          Yosemite National Park (YOSE) (Dept Interior)
          Ansel Adams Wilderness (Inyo Nat'l Forest Dept Agriculture)
          Devils Postpile National Monument (DFPO) (Interior)
          John Muir Wilderness (Sierra National Forest, administered by Inyo to Silver Pass (Agriculture)
          John Muir Wilderness (Sierra National Forest) to Piute Creek (Agriculture)
          Kings Canyon National Park (SEKI) to Forester Pass (Interior)
          Sequoia National Park (SEKI) to Whitney (Interior)
          John Muir Wilderness (Inyo) Trail Crest to WP

          Minaret Wilderness is the pre 1984 California Wilderness act name for Ansel Adams Wilderness

          JD
          Walk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trail

          --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, brucelem12 wrote:
          >
          > I'm reading all this with great interest, because I've always been confused about the assorted wilderness/park/forest area boundaries, and assorted maps seem to provide conflicting info, so thank you John and Roleigh for your research!
          >
          > Is the following correct?
          >
          > The following are all the agencies which govern/manage the contiguous uninterrupted area between Yosemite and Kings Canyon, and none of them overlap:
          > -Yosemite National Park
          > -Sierra National Forest
          > -Sequoia National Forest
          > -Inyo National Forest
          > -Sequoia National Park and Kings Canyon National Park (managed by one agency)
          >
          > The following are all subsets of the above, (crossing several in some cases and subsets of subsets in some cases), and do not have their own governing agencies:
          > -Devils Postpile National Monument
          > -Ansel Adams Wilderness
          > -John Muir Wilderness
          > -Minaret Wilderness
          > -Monarch Wilderness
          > -Fill in the blank here Wilderness
          >
          > Bruce
          >

        • Roleigh Martin
          Jeffrey, I beg to differ a tiny in some cases. While it is clear what is specifically exempted by Inyo, where I would agree with your read, in other areas, it
          Message 4 of 22 , Jul 2, 2013
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            Jeffrey,

            I beg to differ a tiny in some cases.  While it is clear what is specifically exempted by Inyo, where I would agree with your read, in other areas, it is not 100% clear.


            From the BLM Stage II fire prevention order:

            Setting, building, maintaining, attending, or using open fire of any kind, except campfires within approved fire pits and grills provided for in developed recreation sites, is prohibited. Controlled flame devices such as portable stoves fueled by petroleum or LPG products are allowed by permit.

            The terms "controlled flame" and "such as" are ambiguous.  An alcohol stove with 100% containment inside a floor-protected fully wrapped windscreen (or esbit stove of the same), is definitelly a "controlled flame" cooking system.  Nobody would call a wild dog inside a 360 degree enclosed kennel a dog out of control.  Same goes for fire, at least some could reasonably assert.

            Your example of fire caused by spillage, etc., those comments equally apply to canister stoves.  Improper use and tip-over of such stoves can cause a fire and have.

            I agree that one enters the gray area if one strays outside the "such as" list.  

            My goal is that at least for 2014 if the regulators who write rules for the JMT areas can eliminate ambiguity in the rules it will help enable consistent understanding and enforcement of the rules.  I understand from offline feedback changes for 2013 are unreasonable and might be counterproductive to rush clarity for the season.

            For the time being if anyone gets a personal exemption for an alcohol or esbit stove, be sure and write down their name, date and title!  It might help you down the trail avoid trouble with another ranger encounter.

            -------------------------------------------------
            Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
            _



            On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 4:02 PM, jyeider <jyeider@...> wrote:
             

            I've been reading this fire alcohol stove open flame issue, and unfortunately it's darn clear.
            No one would intentionaly start a fire, but rules apply to all of us. 
            How would we feel if we  had one get away from us and burn up our joy.
            The consicuences,  blame and shame to our group would be very bad.
            Yes it's going to cost some of us $100 bucks or so for a new stove, and yes add around 12 ounces,  but weighing the give and take lets just comply and enjoy our Muir trail and move on to hiking.
            Just a thought....
            Jeffery 


            Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone



            -------- Original message --------
            From: John <johndittli@...>
            Date:
            To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Sierra National Forest - Home


             

            I havent been following this, but the list below isn't quite right.


            SoBo

            Yosemite National Park (YOSE) (Dept Interior)
            Ansel Adams Wilderness (Inyo Nat'l Forest Dept Agriculture)
            Devils Postpile National Monument (DFPO) (Interior)
            John Muir Wilderness (Sierra National Forest, administered by Inyo to Silver Pass (Agriculture)
            John Muir Wilderness (Sierra National Forest) to Piute Creek (Agriculture)
            Kings Canyon National Park (SEKI) to Forester Pass (Interior)
            Sequoia National Park (SEKI) to Whitney (Interior)
            John Muir Wilderness (Inyo) Trail Crest to WP

            Minaret Wilderness is the pre 1984 California Wilderness act name for Ansel Adams Wilderness

            JD
            Walk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trail

            --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, brucelem12 wrote:
            >
            > I'm reading all this with great interest, because I've always been confused about the assorted wilderness/park/forest area boundaries, and assorted maps seem to provide conflicting info, so thank you John and Roleigh for your research!
            >
            > Is the following correct?
            >
            > The following are all the agencies which govern/manage the contiguous uninterrupted area between Yosemite and Kings Canyon, and none of them overlap:
            > -Yosemite National Park
            > -Sierra National Forest
            > -Sequoia National Forest
            > -Inyo National Forest
            > -Sequoia National Park and Kings Canyon National Park (managed by one agency)
            >
            > The following are all subsets of the above, (crossing several in some cases and subsets of subsets in some cases), and do not have their own governing agencies:
            > -Devils Postpile National Monument
            > -Ansel Adams Wilderness
            > -John Muir Wilderness
            > -Minaret Wilderness
            > -Monarch Wilderness
            > -Fill in the blank here Wilderness
            >
            > Bruce
            >


          • jyeider
            Roleigh you are correct. Just trying to help bring this to clousure. It seems that these restrictions will be inevitable someday any way. I guess we will see
            Message 5 of 22 , Jul 2, 2013
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              Roleigh you are correct.
              Just trying to help bring this to clousure.
              It seems that these restrictions will be inevitable someday any way.
              I guess we will see more rangers than ever so be careful to all that wish to chance it.
              Kathy( the "Little One ) and 
              I start out on the 12th.
              See you on the trail.
              Jeffery


              Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone



              -------- Original message --------
              From: Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...>
              Date:
              To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Sierra National Forest - Home


               

              Jeffrey,


              I beg to differ a tiny in some cases.  While it is clear what is specifically exempted by Inyo, where I would agree with your read, in other areas, it is not 100% clear.


              From the BLM Stage II fire prevention order:

              Setting, building, maintaining, attending, or using open fire of any kind, except campfires within approved fire pits and grills provided for in developed recreation sites, is prohibited. Controlled flame devices such as portable stoves fueled by petroleum or LPG products are allowed by permit.

              The terms "controlled flame" and "such as" are ambiguous.  An alcohol stove with 100% containment inside a floor-protected fully wrapped windscreen (or esbit stove of the same), is definitelly a "controlled flame" cooking system.  Nobody would call a wild dog inside a 360 degree enclosed kennel a dog out of control.  Same goes for fire, at least some could reasonably assert.

              Your example of fire caused by spillage, etc., those comments equally apply to canister stoves.  Improper use and tip-over of such stoves can cause a fire and have.

              I agree that one enters the gray area if one strays outside the "such as" list.  

              My goal is that at least for 2014 if the regulators who write rules for the JMT areas can eliminate ambiguity in the rules it will help enable consistent understanding and enforcement of the rules.  I understand from offline feedback changes for 2013 are unreasonable and might be counterproductive to rush clarity for the season.

              For the time being if anyone gets a personal exemption for an alcohol or esbit stove, be sure and write down their name, date and title!  It might help you down the trail avoid trouble with another ranger encounter.

              -------------------------------------------------
              Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
              _



              On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 4:02 PM, jyeider <jyeider@...> wrote:
               

              I've been reading this fire alcohol stove open flame issue, and unfortunately it's darn clear.
              No one would intentionaly start a fire, but rules apply to all of us. 
              How would we feel if we  had one get away from us and burn up our joy.
              The consicuences,  blame and shame to our group would be very bad.
              Yes it's going to cost some of us $100 bucks or so for a new stove, and yes add around 12 ounces,  but weighing the give and take lets just comply and enjoy our Muir trail and move on to hiking.
              Just a thought....
              Jeffery 


              Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone



              -------- Original message --------
              From: John <johndittli@...>
              Date:
              To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Sierra National Forest - Home


               

              I havent been following this, but the list below isn't quite right.


              SoBo

              Yosemite National Park (YOSE) (Dept Interior)
              Ansel Adams Wilderness (Inyo Nat'l Forest Dept Agriculture)
              Devils Postpile National Monument (DFPO) (Interior)
              John Muir Wilderness (Sierra National Forest, administered by Inyo to Silver Pass (Agriculture)
              John Muir Wilderness (Sierra National Forest) to Piute Creek (Agriculture)
              Kings Canyon National Park (SEKI) to Forester Pass (Interior)
              Sequoia National Park (SEKI) to Whitney (Interior)
              John Muir Wilderness (Inyo) Trail Crest to WP

              Minaret Wilderness is the pre 1984 California Wilderness act name for Ansel Adams Wilderness

              JD
              Walk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trail

              --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, brucelem12 wrote:
              >
              > I'm reading all this with great interest, because I've always been confused about the assorted wilderness/park/forest area boundaries, and assorted maps seem to provide conflicting info, so thank you John and Roleigh for your research!
              >
              > Is the following correct?
              >
              > The following are all the agencies which govern/manage the contiguous uninterrupted area between Yosemite and Kings Canyon, and none of them overlap:
              > -Yosemite National Park
              > -Sierra National Forest
              > -Sequoia National Forest
              > -Inyo National Forest
              > -Sequoia National Park and Kings Canyon National Park (managed by one agency)
              >
              > The following are all subsets of the above, (crossing several in some cases and subsets of subsets in some cases), and do not have their own governing agencies:
              > -Devils Postpile National Monument
              > -Ansel Adams Wilderness
              > -John Muir Wilderness
              > -Minaret Wilderness
              > -Monarch Wilderness
              > -Fill in the blank here Wilderness
              >
              > Bruce
              >


            • John Ladd
              ... I m not quite sure I agree that canister stoves have an equal chance of causing a fire, but Roleigh s totally right that they aren t risk free. I once
              Message 6 of 22 , Jul 2, 2013
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                On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 1:17 PM, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...> wrote:
                ... Your example of fire caused by spillage, etc., those comments equally apply to canister stoves.  Improper use and tip-over of such stoves can cause a fire and have.

                I'm not quite sure I agree that canister stoves have an "equal' chance of causing a fire, but Roleigh's totally right that they aren't risk free. I once had a bad flame-out on a JetBoil that was hard to quench. I realized that I had let one of the fittings on the JetBoil get loose. Fuel leaked there (just above the shutoff valve) and ignited pretty fiercely. Reaching through the flame to the shut-off valve was problematic though I did succeed in reaching it before losing all my fuel or causing a fire..

                The little round metal cup (where the flame will burn) -- shown colored gold/brass in the drawing below  had loosened where it screws into the valve. It's easy to tighten it down firmly using fingers, and probably worth checking occasionally on a trip

                Link to image -- if you can't see it -- below the image

                Inline image 2

                 

                John Curran Ladd
                1616 Castro Street
                San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                415-648-9279
              • Ann Urick
                I just checked with the PCTA personnel and they have been in contact with the Forest Service folks to get a better idea about alcohol stoves and Esbit tablets
                Message 7 of 22 , Jul 2, 2013
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                  I just checked with the PCTA personnel and they have been in contact with the Forest Service folks to get a better idea about alcohol stoves and Esbit tablets and they are still unclear and have not directly addressed these two fuel types, but the PCTA advice is to not use either of these because they do not fall under the three allowable fuels as described in the Forest Service information, which was listed in these various emails about this subject.  They (the Forest Service) may not address these specific fuels until the 2014 hiking season, which means using alcohol or Esbit may result in a fine depending on which forest ranger stops you.
                • Roleigh Martin
                  I have done the same as Ann and agree with her assessment. I m hoping the survey I just asked all to take will help the situation be better in 2014. Please
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jul 2, 2013
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                    I have done the same as Ann and agree with her assessment.  I'm hoping the survey I just asked all to take will help the situation be better in 2014.  Please take that survey, ok?  It should only take 1 minute:


                    -------------------------------------------------
                    Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
                    _



                    On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 8:14 PM, Ann Urick <aeurick@...> wrote:
                     

                    I just checked with the PCTA personnel and they have been in contact with the Forest Service folks to get a better idea about alcohol stoves and Esbit tablets and they are still unclear and have not directly addressed these two fuel types, but the PCTA advice is to not use either of these because they do not fall under the three allowable fuels as described in the Forest Service information, which was listed in these various emails about this subject.  They (the Forest Service) may not address these specific fuels until the 2014 hiking season, which means using alcohol or Esbit may result in a fine depending on which forest ranger stops you.


                  • Chris
                    Two thoughts come to mind: 1. The Tom Harrison maps are pretty clear on the boundaries of administrative units. SOBO: -Yosemite National Park (to Donohue
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jul 2, 2013
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                      Two thoughts come to mind:

                      1. The Tom Harrison maps are pretty clear on the boundaries of administrative units.

                      SOBO:
                      -Yosemite National Park (to Donohue Pass)
                      -Inyo National Forest (to Devil's Postpile NM)
                      -Devils Postpile National Monument (just a few miles, embedded within Inyo NF)
                      -Inyo NF (to just south of Upper Crater Meadow)
                      -Sierra National Forest (to Piute Trail jct)
                      -Kings Canyon National Park (to Forester Pass)
                      -Sequoia National Park (to Trail Crest)
                      -Inyo National Forest (to Whitney Portal)

                      Sequoia NF: As mentioned before, the JMT never crosses Sequoia NF nor Sequoia NM.

                      Wilderness Areas: As Bruce mentions, Wilderness Areas often overlap multiple administrative units. This is due to the fact that WA's are more of a land use designation (allowed uses on the land), rather than an administrative designation (who manages the land). It looks like the fire restrictions are being decided on the basis of administrative units... so wilderness areas are not important for these restrictions.

                      2. I was really looking forward to using an alcohol stove on my JMT hike this summer, but I didn't want to push the boundaries on the gray areas on these fire restrictions, so I looked into cheap/light canister stoves. I found this one on Amazon, super cheap ($7), super light (4oz without canister), and gets great reviews. Has anyone here used this? I'll be getting one and testing it out soon.

                      http://www.amazon.com/Ultralight-Backpacking-Canister-Stove-Ignition/dp/B004U8CP88/

                      Cheers!

                      Chris.



                      --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" <johndittli@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I havent been following this, but the list below isn't quite right.
                      > SoBo
                      > Yosemite National Park (YOSE) (Dept Interior)Ansel Adams Wilderness
                      > (Inyo Nat'l Forest Dept Agriculture)Devils Postpile National Monument
                      > (DFPO) (Interior)John Muir Wilderness (Sierra National Forest,
                      > administered by Inyo to Silver Pass (Agriculture)John Muir Wilderness
                      > (Sierra National Forest) to Piute Creek (Agriculture)Kings Canyon
                      > National Park (SEKI) to Forester Pass (Interior)Sequoia National Park
                      > (SEKI) to Whitney (Interior)John Muir Wilderness (Inyo) Trail Crest to
                      > WP
                      > Minaret Wilderness is the pre 1984 California Wilderness act name for
                      > Ansel Adams Wilderness
                      > JDWalk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trailsee book here
                      > <http://www.johndittli.com>
                      > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, brucelem12 wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I'm reading all this with great interest, because I've always been
                      > confused about the assorted wilderness/park/forest area boundaries, and
                      > assorted maps seem to provide conflicting info, so thank you John and
                      > Roleigh for your research!
                      > >
                      > > Is the following correct?
                      > >
                      > > The following are all the agencies which govern/manage the contiguous
                      > uninterrupted area between Yosemite and Kings Canyon, and none of them
                      > overlap:
                      > > -Yosemite National Park
                      > > -Sierra National Forest
                      > > -Sequoia National Forest
                      > > -Inyo National Forest
                      > > -Sequoia National Park and Kings Canyon National Park (managed by one
                      > agency)
                      > >
                      > > The following are all subsets of the above, (crossing several in some
                      > cases and subsets of subsets in some cases), and do not have their own
                      > governing agencies:
                      > > -Devils Postpile National Monument
                      > > -Ansel Adams Wilderness
                      > > -John Muir Wilderness
                      > > -Minaret Wilderness
                      > > -Monarch Wilderness
                      > > -Fill in the blank here Wilderness
                      > >
                      > > Bruce
                      > >
                      >
                    • Barbara Karagosian
                      Chris - I had a look at the stove you mentioned - just make sure the prong things that the pot rests on are wide and grippy enough that it wont be sliding
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jul 2, 2013
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                        Chris - I had a look at the stove you mentioned - just make sure the prong things that the pot rests on are wide and grippy enough that it wont be sliding around.  I had a "Pocket Rocket" once, that had to be perfectly straight or else the pot would tip off, and that's hard to manage.  

                        Barbara


                        On Jul 2, 2013, at 8:19 PM, "Chris" <cehauser1@...> wrote:

                         

                        Two thoughts come to mind:

                        1. The Tom Harrison maps are pretty clear on the boundaries of administrative units.

                        SOBO:
                        -Yosemite National Park (to Donohue Pass)
                        -Inyo National Forest (to Devil's Postpile NM)
                        -Devils Postpile National Monument (just a few miles, embedded within Inyo NF)
                        -Inyo NF (to just south of Upper Crater Meadow)
                        -Sierra National Forest (to Piute Trail jct)
                        -Kings Canyon National Park (to Forester Pass)
                        -Sequoia National Park (to Trail Crest)
                        -Inyo National Forest (to Whitney Portal)

                        Sequoia NF: As mentioned before, the JMT never crosses Sequoia NF nor Sequoia NM.

                        Wilderness Areas: As Bruce mentions, Wilderness Areas often overlap multiple administrative units. This is due to the fact that WA's are more of a land use designation (allowed uses on the land), rather than an administrative designation (who manages the land). It looks like the fire restrictions are being decided on the basis of administrative units... so wilderness areas are not important for these restrictions.

                        2. I was really looking forward to using an alcohol stove on my JMT hike this summer, but I didn't want to push the boundaries on the gray areas on these fire restrictions, so I looked into cheap/light canister stoves. I found this one on Amazon, super cheap ($7), super light (4oz without canister), and gets great reviews. Has anyone here used this? I'll be getting one and testing it out soon.

                        http://www.amazon.com/Ultralight-Backpacking-Canister-Stove-Ignition/dp/B004U8CP88/

                        Cheers!

                        Chris.

                        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" <johndittli@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I havent been following this, but the list below isn't quite right.
                        > SoBo
                        > Yosemite National Park (YOSE) (Dept Interior)Ansel Adams Wilderness
                        > (Inyo Nat'l Forest Dept Agriculture)Devils Postpile National Monument
                        > (DFPO) (Interior)John Muir Wilderness (Sierra National Forest,
                        > administered by Inyo to Silver Pass (Agriculture)John Muir Wilderness
                        > (Sierra National Forest) to Piute Creek (Agriculture)Kings Canyon
                        > National Park (SEKI) to Forester Pass (Interior)Sequoia National Park
                        > (SEKI) to Whitney (Interior)John Muir Wilderness (Inyo) Trail Crest to
                        > WP
                        > Minaret Wilderness is the pre 1984 California Wilderness act name for
                        > Ansel Adams Wilderness
                        > JDWalk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trailsee book here
                        > <http://www.johndittli.com>
                        > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, brucelem12 wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I'm reading all this with great interest, because I've always been
                        > confused about the assorted wilderness/park/forest area boundaries, and
                        > assorted maps seem to provide conflicting info, so thank you John and
                        > Roleigh for your research!
                        > >
                        > > Is the following correct?
                        > >
                        > > The following are all the agencies which govern/manage the contiguous
                        > uninterrupted area between Yosemite and Kings Canyon, and none of them
                        > overlap:
                        > > -Yosemite National Park
                        > > -Sierra National Forest
                        > > -Sequoia National Forest
                        > > -Inyo National Forest
                        > > -Sequoia National Park and Kings Canyon National Park (managed by one
                        > agency)
                        > >
                        > > The following are all subsets of the above, (crossing several in some
                        > cases and subsets of subsets in some cases), and do not have their own
                        > governing agencies:
                        > > -Devils Postpile National Monument
                        > > -Ansel Adams Wilderness
                        > > -John Muir Wilderness
                        > > -Minaret Wilderness
                        > > -Monarch Wilderness
                        > > -Fill in the blank here Wilderness
                        > >
                        > > Bruce
                        > >
                        >

                      • Robert
                        Wow, that is a great price for a stove. It looks like it has got some great reviews as well. I haven t heard of it or used one, but I would be curious to see
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jul 2, 2013
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                          Wow, that is a great price for a stove. It looks like it has got some great reviews as well. I haven't heard of it or used one, but I would be curious to see how it works for you. I have a Snow Peak Ti Litemax at 1.9 ozs., but for the small increase in weight, you save quite a bit! The Litemax doesn't have an auto starter built in though. I'd be interested in a review on it after testing.

                          --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <cehauser1@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Two thoughts come to mind:
                          >
                          > 1. The Tom Harrison maps are pretty clear on the boundaries of administrative units.
                          >
                          > SOBO:
                          > -Yosemite National Park (to Donohue Pass)
                          > -Inyo National Forest (to Devil's Postpile NM)
                          > -Devils Postpile National Monument (just a few miles, embedded within Inyo NF)
                          > -Inyo NF (to just south of Upper Crater Meadow)
                          > -Sierra National Forest (to Piute Trail jct)
                          > -Kings Canyon National Park (to Forester Pass)
                          > -Sequoia National Park (to Trail Crest)
                          > -Inyo National Forest (to Whitney Portal)
                          >
                          > Sequoia NF: As mentioned before, the JMT never crosses Sequoia NF nor Sequoia NM.
                          >
                          > Wilderness Areas: As Bruce mentions, Wilderness Areas often overlap multiple administrative units. This is due to the fact that WA's are more of a land use designation (allowed uses on the land), rather than an administrative designation (who manages the land). It looks like the fire restrictions are being decided on the basis of administrative units... so wilderness areas are not important for these restrictions.
                          >
                          > 2. I was really looking forward to using an alcohol stove on my JMT hike this summer, but I didn't want to push the boundaries on the gray areas on these fire restrictions, so I looked into cheap/light canister stoves. I found this one on Amazon, super cheap ($7), super light (4oz without canister), and gets great reviews. Has anyone here used this? I'll be getting one and testing it out soon.
                          >
                          > http://www.amazon.com/Ultralight-Backpacking-Canister-Stove-Ignition/dp/B004U8CP88/
                          >
                          > Cheers!
                          >
                          > Chris.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" <johndittli@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I havent been following this, but the list below isn't quite right.
                          > > SoBo
                          > > Yosemite National Park (YOSE) (Dept Interior)Ansel Adams Wilderness
                          > > (Inyo Nat'l Forest Dept Agriculture)Devils Postpile National Monument
                          > > (DFPO) (Interior)John Muir Wilderness (Sierra National Forest,
                          > > administered by Inyo to Silver Pass (Agriculture)John Muir Wilderness
                          > > (Sierra National Forest) to Piute Creek (Agriculture)Kings Canyon
                          > > National Park (SEKI) to Forester Pass (Interior)Sequoia National Park
                          > > (SEKI) to Whitney (Interior)John Muir Wilderness (Inyo) Trail Crest to
                          > > WP
                          > > Minaret Wilderness is the pre 1984 California Wilderness act name for
                          > > Ansel Adams Wilderness
                          > > JDWalk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trailsee book here
                          > > <http://www.johndittli.com>
                          > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, brucelem12 wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > I'm reading all this with great interest, because I've always been
                          > > confused about the assorted wilderness/park/forest area boundaries, and
                          > > assorted maps seem to provide conflicting info, so thank you John and
                          > > Roleigh for your research!
                          > > >
                          > > > Is the following correct?
                          > > >
                          > > > The following are all the agencies which govern/manage the contiguous
                          > > uninterrupted area between Yosemite and Kings Canyon, and none of them
                          > > overlap:
                          > > > -Yosemite National Park
                          > > > -Sierra National Forest
                          > > > -Sequoia National Forest
                          > > > -Inyo National Forest
                          > > > -Sequoia National Park and Kings Canyon National Park (managed by one
                          > > agency)
                          > > >
                          > > > The following are all subsets of the above, (crossing several in some
                          > > cases and subsets of subsets in some cases), and do not have their own
                          > > governing agencies:
                          > > > -Devils Postpile National Monument
                          > > > -Ansel Adams Wilderness
                          > > > -John Muir Wilderness
                          > > > -Minaret Wilderness
                          > > > -Monarch Wilderness
                          > > > -Fill in the blank here Wilderness
                          > > >
                          > > > Bruce
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Mike Bricker
                          Yes, the $7 on Amazon is the real deal. I have been using them for a few years now and they are reliable and work well. Plus they have the piezo electric
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jul 2, 2013
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                            Yes, the $7 on Amazon is the real deal. I have been using them for a few years now and they are reliable and work well. Plus they have the piezo electric ignition which works well every time. 

                             

                            On Jul 2, 2013, at 9:07 PM, "Robert" <rnperky@...> wrote:

                             

                            Wow, that is a great price for a stove. It looks like it has got some great reviews as well. I haven't heard of it or used one, but I would be curious to see how it works for you. I have a Snow Peak Ti Litemax at 1.9 ozs., but for the small increase in weight, you save quite a bit! The Litemax doesn't have an auto starter built in though. I'd be interested in a review on it after testing.

                            --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <cehauser1@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Two thoughts come to mind:
                            >
                            > 1. The Tom Harrison maps are pretty clear on the boundaries of administrative units.
                            >
                            > SOBO:
                            > -Yosemite National Park (to Donohue Pass)
                            > -Inyo National Forest (to Devil's Postpile NM)
                            > -Devils Postpile National Monument (just a few miles, embedded within Inyo NF)
                            > -Inyo NF (to just south of Upper Crater Meadow)
                            > -Sierra National Forest (to Piute Trail jct)
                            > -Kings Canyon National Park (to Forester Pass)
                            > -Sequoia National Park (to Trail Crest)
                            > -Inyo National Forest (to Whitney Portal)
                            >
                            > Sequoia NF: As mentioned before, the JMT never crosses Sequoia NF nor Sequoia NM.
                            >
                            > Wilderness Areas: As Bruce mentions, Wilderness Areas often overlap multiple administrative units. This is due to the fact that WA's are more of a land use designation (allowed uses on the land), rather than an administrative designation (who manages the land). It looks like the fire restrictions are being decided on the basis of administrative units... so wilderness areas are not important for these restrictions.
                            >
                            > 2. I was really looking forward to using an alcohol stove on my JMT hike this summer, but I didn't want to push the boundaries on the gray areas on these fire restrictions, so I looked into cheap/light canister stoves. I found this one on Amazon, super cheap ($7), super light (4oz without canister), and gets great reviews. Has anyone here used this? I'll be getting one and testing it out soon.
                            >
                            > http://www.amazon.com/Ultralight-Backpacking-Canister-Stove-Ignition/dp/B004U8CP88/
                            >
                            > Cheers!
                            >
                            > Chris.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" <johndittli@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I havent been following this, but the list below isn't quite right.
                            > > SoBo
                            > > Yosemite National Park (YOSE) (Dept Interior)Ansel Adams Wilderness
                            > > (Inyo Nat'l Forest Dept Agriculture)Devils Postpile National Monument
                            > > (DFPO) (Interior)John Muir Wilderness (Sierra National Forest,
                            > > administered by Inyo to Silver Pass (Agriculture)John Muir Wilderness
                            > > (Sierra National Forest) to Piute Creek (Agriculture)Kings Canyon
                            > > National Park (SEKI) to Forester Pass (Interior)Sequoia National Park
                            > > (SEKI) to Whitney (Interior)John Muir Wilderness (Inyo) Trail Crest to
                            > > WP
                            > > Minaret Wilderness is the pre 1984 California Wilderness act name for
                            > > Ansel Adams Wilderness
                            > > JDWalk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trailsee book here
                            > > <http://www.johndittli.com>
                            > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, brucelem12 wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > I'm reading all this with great interest, because I've always been
                            > > confused about the assorted wilderness/park/forest area boundaries, and
                            > > assorted maps seem to provide conflicting info, so thank you John and
                            > > Roleigh for your research!
                            > > >
                            > > > Is the following correct?
                            > > >
                            > > > The following are all the agencies which govern/manage the contiguous
                            > > uninterrupted area between Yosemite and Kings Canyon, and none of them
                            > > overlap:
                            > > > -Yosemite National Park
                            > > > -Sierra National Forest
                            > > > -Sequoia National Forest
                            > > > -Inyo National Forest
                            > > > -Sequoia National Park and Kings Canyon National Park (managed by one
                            > > agency)
                            > > >
                            > > > The following are all subsets of the above, (crossing several in some
                            > > cases and subsets of subsets in some cases), and do not have their own
                            > > governing agencies:
                            > > > -Devils Postpile National Monument
                            > > > -Ansel Adams Wilderness
                            > > > -John Muir Wilderness
                            > > > -Minaret Wilderness
                            > > > -Monarch Wilderness
                            > > > -Fill in the blank here Wilderness
                            > > >
                            > > > Bruce
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >

                          • walkingwomad
                            I actually was looking quite forward on using my alcohol stove setup, but maybe I should just forget about this year. Yeah it s gonna cost me some money, and
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jul 2, 2013
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                              I actually was looking quite forward on using my alcohol stove setup, but maybe I should just forget about this year. Yeah it's gonna cost me some money, and yeah it's gonna add some weight (argh, should I not take my ukulele then?) but I wanna hike happy-hearted and not worry about stoves and stuff (maybe I should go without... Na I guess not).

                              I think I'll buy a new stove once I get to San Francisco (I have 2 days before leaving to Yosemite). Here in Europe they are more expensive...

                              Has anyone used the Jetboil Zip stove?


                              --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, jyeider <jyeider@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I've been reading this fire alcohol stove open flame issue, and unfortunately it's darn clear.
                              > No one would intentionaly start a fire, but rules apply to all of us. 
                              > How would we feel if we  had one get away from us and burn up our joy.
                              > The consicuences,  blame and shame to our group would be very bad.
                              > Yes it's going to cost some of us $100 bucks or so for a new stove, and yes add around 12 ounces,  but weighing the give and take lets just comply and enjoy our Muir trail and move on to hiking.
                              > Just a thought....
                              > Jeffery 
                            • John Ladd
                              On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 11:14 PM, walkingwomad ... she has one). She won t be using it during the time of your trip (if I remember
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jul 3, 2013
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                                On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 11:14 PM, walkingwomad <helenbeckers@...> wrote:

                                I actually was looking quite forward on using my alcohol stove setup, but maybe I should just forget about this year. ... I think I'll buy a new stove once I get to San Francisco (I have 2 days before leaving to Yosemite). ...

                                You could borrow my daughter's Jetboil PCS, my favorite stove (that's why she has one). She won't be using it during the time of your trip (if I remember your dates right). Pick it up as you pass through town and mail it back to me when you exit.

                                But my old Svea 123 is prettier. And clearly legal (pressurized fuel and a shutoff valve) even though it is probably more likely to start a fire than the average alcohol stove. Ironic, now that I think about it.

                                Inline image 1




                                John Curran Ladd
                                1616 Castro Street
                                San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                                415-648-9279



                              • brucelem12
                                Thanks Chris and John. It makes more sense now that I understand for sure that the wilderness areas are non administrative subsets of the administrative
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jul 3, 2013
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                                  Thanks Chris and John. It makes more sense now that I understand for sure that the wilderness areas are non administrative subsets of the administrative boundaries.
                                  Bruce

                                  --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <cehauser1@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Two thoughts come to mind:
                                  >
                                  > 1. The Tom Harrison maps are pretty clear on the boundaries of administrative units.
                                  >
                                  > SOBO:
                                  > -Yosemite National Park (to Donohue Pass)
                                  > -Inyo National Forest (to Devil's Postpile NM)
                                  > -Devils Postpile National Monument (just a few miles, embedded within Inyo NF)
                                  > -Inyo NF (to just south of Upper Crater Meadow)
                                  > -Sierra National Forest (to Piute Trail jct)
                                  > -Kings Canyon National Park (to Forester Pass)
                                  > -Sequoia National Park (to Trail Crest)
                                  > -Inyo National Forest (to Whitney Portal)
                                  >
                                  > Sequoia NF: As mentioned before, the JMT never crosses Sequoia NF nor Sequoia NM.
                                  >
                                  > Wilderness Areas: As Bruce mentions, Wilderness Areas often overlap multiple administrative units. This is due to the fact that WA's are more of a land use designation (allowed uses on the land), rather than an administrative designation (who manages the land). It looks like the fire restrictions are being decided on the basis of administrative units... so wilderness areas are not important for these restrictions.
                                  >
                                  > 2. I was really looking forward to using an alcohol stove on my JMT hike this summer, but I didn't want to push the boundaries on the gray areas on these fire restrictions, so I looked into cheap/light canister stoves. I found this one on Amazon, super cheap ($7), super light (4oz without canister), and gets great reviews. Has anyone here used this? I'll be getting one and testing it out soon.
                                  >
                                  > http://www.amazon.com/Ultralight-Backpacking-Canister-Stove-Ignition/dp/B004U8CP88/
                                  >
                                  > Cheers!
                                  >
                                  > Chris.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" <johndittli@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I havent been following this, but the list below isn't quite right.
                                  > > SoBo
                                  > > Yosemite National Park (YOSE) (Dept Interior)Ansel Adams Wilderness
                                  > > (Inyo Nat'l Forest Dept Agriculture)Devils Postpile National Monument
                                  > > (DFPO) (Interior)John Muir Wilderness (Sierra National Forest,
                                  > > administered by Inyo to Silver Pass (Agriculture)John Muir Wilderness
                                  > > (Sierra National Forest) to Piute Creek (Agriculture)Kings Canyon
                                  > > National Park (SEKI) to Forester Pass (Interior)Sequoia National Park
                                  > > (SEKI) to Whitney (Interior)John Muir Wilderness (Inyo) Trail Crest to
                                  > > WP
                                  > > Minaret Wilderness is the pre 1984 California Wilderness act name for
                                  > > Ansel Adams Wilderness
                                  > > JDWalk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trailsee book here
                                  > > <http://www.johndittli.com>
                                  > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, brucelem12 wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I'm reading all this with great interest, because I've always been
                                  > > confused about the assorted wilderness/park/forest area boundaries, and
                                  > > assorted maps seem to provide conflicting info, so thank you John and
                                  > > Roleigh for your research!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Is the following correct?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The following are all the agencies which govern/manage the contiguous
                                  > > uninterrupted area between Yosemite and Kings Canyon, and none of them
                                  > > overlap:
                                  > > > -Yosemite National Park
                                  > > > -Sierra National Forest
                                  > > > -Sequoia National Forest
                                  > > > -Inyo National Forest
                                  > > > -Sequoia National Park and Kings Canyon National Park (managed by one
                                  > > agency)
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The following are all subsets of the above, (crossing several in some
                                  > > cases and subsets of subsets in some cases), and do not have their own
                                  > > governing agencies:
                                  > > > -Devils Postpile National Monument
                                  > > > -Ansel Adams Wilderness
                                  > > > -John Muir Wilderness
                                  > > > -Minaret Wilderness
                                  > > > -Monarch Wilderness
                                  > > > -Fill in the blank here Wilderness
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Bruce
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Pete
                                  Barbara: Had to laugh at this. I bought a Pocket Rocket right after they came out and took it on an overniter in Utah. My first pass at dinner wound up
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jul 3, 2013
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                                    Barbara:

                                    Had to laugh at this. I bought a Pocket Rocket right after they came out and took it on an overniter in Utah.
                                    My first pass at dinner wound up tipping over into the sand. It
                                    went back to REI in favor of one with a broader pot rest.

                                    Pete

                                    --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Chris - I had a look at the stove you mentioned - just make sure the prong things that the pot rests on are wide and grippy enough that it wont be sliding around. I had a "Pocket Rocket" once, that had to be perfectly straight or else the pot would tip off, and that's hard to manage.
                                    >
                                    > Barbara
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Allen Freeman
                                    I had the pressure valve blow out on a Svea 123 once. It makes quite the flame-thrower! -- ~~~~~ Allen F. Freeman allen@allenf.com www.allenf.com
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jul 3, 2013
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                                      I had the pressure valve blow out on a Svea 123 once. It makes quite the flame-thrower!

                                      --
                                      ~~~~~
                                      Allen F. Freeman
                                      allen@...
                                      www.allenf.com
                                      www.allenf.com/blog

                                      “May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds.”
                                      -Edward Abbey


                                      On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 9:38 AM, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:


                                      On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 11:14 PM, walkingwomad <helenbeckers@...> wrote:

                                      I actually was looking quite forward on using my alcohol stove setup, but maybe I should just forget about this year. ... I think I'll buy a new stove once I get to San Francisco (I have 2 days before leaving to Yosemite). ...

                                      You could borrow my daughter's Jetboil PCS, my favorite stove (that's why she has one). She won't be using it during the time of your trip (if I remember your dates right). Pick it up as you pass through town and mail it back to me when you exit.

                                      But my old Svea 123 is prettier. And clearly legal (pressurized fuel and a shutoff valve) even though it is probably more likely to start a fire than the average alcohol stove. Ironic, now that I think about it.

                                      Inline image 1




                                      John Curran Ladd
                                      1616 Castro Street
                                      San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                                      415-648-9279






                                    • Kim Fishburn
                                      There used to be a guy working at the Beserkely REI that I was under the impression that his face was burned in a stove fire. ... There used to be a guy
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jul 3, 2013
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                                        There used to be a guy working at the Beserkely REI that I was under the impression that his face was burned in a stove fire.


                                        On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Allen Freeman <allen@...> wrote:
                                         

                                        I had the pressure valve blow out on a Svea 123 once. It makes quite the flame-thrower!

                                        --
                                        ~~~~~
                                        Allen F. Freeman
                                        allen@...
                                        www.allenf.com
                                        www.allenf.com/blog

                                        “May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds.”
                                        -Edward Abbey


                                        On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 9:38 AM, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:


                                        On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 11:14 PM, walkingwomad <helenbeckers@...> wrote:

                                        I actually was looking quite forward on using my alcohol stove setup, but maybe I should just forget about this year. ... I think I'll buy a new stove once I get to San Francisco (I have 2 days before leaving to Yosemite). ...

                                        You could borrow my daughter's Jetboil PCS, my favorite stove (that's why she has one). She won't be using it during the time of your trip (if I remember your dates right). Pick it up as you pass through town and mail it back to me when you exit.

                                        But my old Svea 123 is prettier. And clearly legal (pressurized fuel and a shutoff valve) even though it is probably more likely to start a fire than the average alcohol stove. Ironic, now that I think about it.

                                        Inline image 1




                                        John Curran Ladd
                                        1616 Castro Street
                                        San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                                        415-648-9279







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