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Re: 10-days of food in a 7-day Bear Canister?

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  • Robert
    My friend and I got almost 10 days of food into each of our bear cans. I say almost, because there were a few things we simply couldn t get in there the first
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 22 10:42 PM
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      My friend and I got almost 10 days of food into each of our bear cans. I say almost, because there were a few things we simply couldn't get in there the first night or two, such as sun lotion and deet. But we were short on food for the trip. We needed more of the trail mix, jerky, bars, etc., that you eat throughout the day while you're moving. I had a half bag of Kirkland cooked bacon bits that came in really handy as an addition to dinner and breakfast when we cooked dehydrated eggs. We craved fat because we were losing our stored fat quickly and both ended up dropping several pounds, mostly in the 10 days between MTR and Whitney.

      --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "pottertax" <pottertax@...> wrote:
      >
      > To cope with the bear canister food crunch from MTR to Whitney, I'm going to experiment with a pantry approach. Keep all staples (e.g., oatmeal, granola, instant rice, couscous, potatoes, sugar, gorp, etc.)together in single large baggies (not thick freezer bags on a per meal basis as usual). The remainder of the bear canister space can go the flavorings that will go into these staples to make a meal (e.g., curry, freeze dried veggies, etc.), as well as any trail bars or lunch foods (minus the big bag of gorp). Anyone ever try this approach? If so, how many days did you get into the barrel?
      > How about chopped bacon in its grease, that should keep and add flavor! I'll try some ghee this time too.
      >
    • staehpj1
      Does your schedule actually have you taking the full 10 days for that section? If not consider that canisters are not required for that section until mile 157
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 24 4:44 AM
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        Does your schedule actually have you taking the full 10 days for that section? If not consider that canisters are not required for that section until mile 157 or so. You could consider an Ursack or a PCT hang for that portion and by then you will have less food than you left MTR with. My understanding is that the bears are less likely to be a problem there anyway. You may have to pick camping locations more carefully if you want to be able to hang your food though.

        Full disclosure:
        I have not yet done the JMT so this is based only on research, not personal experience.

        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "pottertax" <pottertax@...> wrote:
        >
        > To cope with the bear canister food crunch from MTR to Whitney, I'm going to experiment with a pantry approach. Keep all staples (e.g., oatmeal, granola, instant rice, couscous, potatoes, sugar, gorp, etc.)together in single large baggies (not thick freezer bags on a per meal basis as usual). The remainder of the bear canister space can go the flavorings that will go into these staples to make a meal (e.g., curry, freeze dried veggies, etc.), as well as any trail bars or lunch foods (minus the big bag of gorp). Anyone ever try this approach? If so, how many days did you get into the barrel?
        > How about chopped bacon in its grease, that should keep and add flavor! I'll try some ghee this time too.
        >
      • John Ladd
        ... PCT hang no longer legal in this area as bears figured it out. Ursack not legal unless properly hung -- so Ursack AND a proper hang is OK but Ursack on
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 24 7:53 AM
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          On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 4:44 AM, staehpj1 <Pete.Staehling@...> wrote:
          You could consider an Ursack or a PCT hang for that portion and by then you will have less food than you left MTR with.

          PCT hang no longer legal in this area as bears figured it out. 

          Ursack not legal unless properly hung  -- so Ursack AND a proper hang is OK but Ursack on ground is not.

          Using a counterbalance hang is legal from MTR south to Pinchot Pass. Using a Ursack as the hang bag gives added protection. If the bear defeats the hang, at least won't get a food reward, though your food will be crushed. 

          It's hard in that area to find a tree with a branch suitable for hanging. I don't think it is a particularly good technique, though I have used it (properly hung Ursack) in the past successfully. I'm much happier since I bought a bearcan big enough for 10+ days of food (16 in custom Bearikade)

          Info on counterbalance hanging at 

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johnmuirtrail/links/Bear_protection_001262975015/Hanging_technique_001316696691/

          John Curran Ladd
          1616 Castro Street
          San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
          415-648-9279
        • brucelem12
          Just curious re the counter balance hang being okay but the PCT hang not...have there been cases of bears figuring out to reel in the cord and chomp off the
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 24 12:44 PM
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            Just curious re the counter balance hang being okay but the PCT hang not...have there been cases of bears figuring out to reel in the cord and chomp off the stick/stop (or maybe pull till it breaks)? I'm with you re the JMT John...easier to just use a can always...but I have used the PCT hang a lot for other hikes.

            Also...are those rumors true that some bears have learned to carry screwdrivers to get the Bearikades/Garcias open...so combination locks are going to be required soon? :)
            Bruce

            --- John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:

            --------- PCT hang no longer legal in this area as bears figured it out.------------
            -----------Using a counterbalance hang is legal from MTR south to Pinchot Pass. --------------------
            John Curran Ladd
          • John Ladd
            ... I think they just shake the tree, the stick dislodges, the food falls to the ground. Bears eat. you don t. John Curran Ladd 1616 Castro Street San
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 24 3:34 PM
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              On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 12:44 PM, brucelem12 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
              ...have there been cases of bears figuring out to reel in the cord and chomp off the stick/stop

              I think they just shake the tree, the stick dislodges, the food falls to the ground. Bears eat. you don't.

              John Curran Ladd
              1616 Castro Street
              San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
              415-648-9279
            • Don Amundson
              Another year, another ursack discussion. Ursacks do not have to be hung in the area where hanging is allowed and they shouldn t be tied to anything. See the
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 24 10:27 PM
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                Another year, another ursack discussion.  Ursacks do not have to be hung in the area where hanging is allowed and they shouldn't be tied to anything.  See the info from the Ursack web site: 

                The Forest Service Order for Inyo National Forest for 2009 allows Ursacks.  It says:  food must be stored in a container designed to prevent access by bears.  In the past, Inyo has specified only SIBBG approved containers.  That is no longer the case.   In addition, there are Park supplied food storage lockers at 11 locations in that restricted area. Remember, it is not illegal to hike anywhere with an Ursack. Only camping in a restricted area without an approved bear-resistant container (or food locker) is prohibited.

                Should the Hybrid be tied to a tree or other fixed object?
                Not in restricted areas of the Sierra National Parks or Forests. Maybe elsewhere. Please check local regulations--approval and use of Ursack varies from place to place around North America. Some Sierra rangers are concerned that tying Ursack to a tree branch or even a rock could lead to resource damage as the bear struggles with it. Therefore the approved method of use is to cinch the Ursack tightly closed, TIE A STRONG KNOT, and place the Ursack a safe distance from camp.

                I carry a canister.  When I have to hang, due to too much food to fit everything in a canister, I use a stuff sack.  

                Out of curiosity I too would like to know when it was ever "legal" but became "illegal" to use the PCT hang method in the areas where hanging is allowed (though discouraged)?

                -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 12:44 PM, brucelem12 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                ...have there been cases of bears figuring out to reel in the cord and chomp off the stick/stop

                I think they just shake the tree, the stick dislodges, the food falls to the ground. Bears eat. you don't.

                John Curran Ladd
                ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                I find it difficult the believe shaking a tree would ever displace the stick using a PCT hang properly.  There's tension on the stick both from the carabiner, the weight of the food bag and the knot.  I find it a lot easier to break the stick than trying to "dislodge" it.  I hang food regularly in the So. Cal. Mountains and find this to be the case.

                Just to speculate without backup documentation.  Whoever wrote the bag hanging requirement was either unfamiliar with the PCT method, didn't like it or or thought his/her way was the only way to go so now to hang "legally" you're required to use the counter balance method. 

                It reminds me of the toilet paper regulation where everywhere along the trail your required to pack out your toilet paper except in the John Muir Wilderness where the reg says burying it is allowed. 


                To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                From: johnladd@...
                Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 07:53:22 -0700
                Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Re: 10-days of food in a 7-day Bear Canister?

                 

                On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 4:44 AM, staehpj1 <Pete.Staehling@...> wrote:
                You could consider an Ursack or a PCT hang for that portion and by then you will have less food than you left MTR with.

                PCT hang no longer legal in this area as bears figured it out. 

                Ursack not legal unless properly hung  -- so Ursack AND a proper hang is OK but Ursack on ground is not.

                Using a counterbalance hang is legal from MTR south to Pinchot Pass. Using a Ursack as the hang bag gives added protection. If the bear defeats the hang, at least won't get a food reward, though your food will be crushed. 

                It's hard in that area to find a tree with a branch suitable for hanging. I don't think it is a particularly good technique, though I have used it (properly hung Ursack) in the past successfully. I'm much happier since I bought a bearcan big enough for 10+ days of food (16 in custom Bearikade)

                Info on counterbalance hanging at 

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johnmuirtrail/links/Bear_protection_001262975015/Hanging_technique_001316696691/

                John Curran Ladd
                1616 Castro Street
                San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                415-648-9279

              • staehpj1
                Interesting... I would have thought that the counterbalance method would be more susceptible to shaking than a properly done PCT hang. I really have a hard
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 25 4:55 AM
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                  Interesting... I would have thought that the counterbalance method would be more susceptible to shaking than a properly done PCT hang. I really have a hard time imagining the stick coming loose with a properly tied clove hitch. Maybe the bears shake hard enough that the stick breaks?

                  --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 12:44 PM, brucelem12 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>wrote:
                  >
                  > > ...have there been cases of bears figuring out to reel in the cord and
                  > > chomp off the stick/stop
                  >
                  >
                  > I think they just shake the tree, the stick dislodges, the food falls to
                  > the ground. Bears eat. you don't.
                  >
                  > John Curran Ladd
                  > 1616 Castro Street
                  > San Francisco, CA 94114-3707
                  > 415-648-9279
                  >
                • John Ladd
                  Don and I do have a different view of this situation which we have aired before. So if you ve read it, you can skip this. I think Don reads the regulations in
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 25 7:54 AM
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                    Don and I do have a different view of this situation which we have aired before. So if you've read it, you can skip this.

                    I think Don reads the regulations in a perfectly logicla way. But it's not the way that Inyo National Forest or SEKI NP reads them. Don might well win in a fully argued court case. If I were the magistrate, I'd rule in his favor.

                    But unless you plan on returning to the local federal magistrate court to protest a ranger-issued citation, the law is what the backcountry ranger thinks it is. And in my experience, they think that PCT method of hanging is illegal and that Ursacks on the ground are illegal.

                    There is a problem of tying a Ursack to a tree (stripped bark as the bear tugs at it) but it does not apply to a hung Ursack.

                    But, that said, the backcountry rangers would rather talk you into following their understanding of the requirements than issuing a citation.

                    John Dittli will know this way better than I, John - can you add anything here?

                    I suspect part of the thinking on the PCT hang vs counterbalance is that the one may be done more reliably than the other by the typical Sierra hiker who hangs. 

                    John Curran Ladd
                    1616 Castro Street
                    San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                    415-648-9279


                    On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Don Amundson <amrowinc@...> wrote:
                     

                    Another year, another ursack discussion.  Ursacks do not have to be hung in the area where hanging is allowed and they shouldn't be tied to anything.  See the info from the Ursack web site: 

                    The Forest Service Order for Inyo National Forest for 2009 allows Ursacks.  It says:  food must be stored in a container designed to prevent access by bears.  In the past, Inyo has specified only SIBBG approved containers.  That is no longer the case.   In addition, there are Park supplied food storage lockers at 11 locations in that restricted area. Remember, it is not illegal to hike anywhere with an Ursack. Only camping in a restricted area without an approved bear-resistant container (or food locker) is prohibited.

                    Should the Hybrid be tied to a tree or other fixed object?
                    Not in restricted areas of the Sierra National Parks or Forests. Maybe elsewhere. Please check local regulations--approval and use of Ursack varies from place to place around North America. Some Sierra rangers are concerned that tying Ursack to a tree branch or even a rock could lead to resource damage as the bear struggles with it. Therefore the approved method of use is to cinch the Ursack tightly closed, TIE A STRONG KNOT, and place the Ursack a safe distance from camp.

                    I carry a canister.  When I have to hang, due to too much food to fit everything in a canister, I use a stuff sack.  

                    Out of curiosity I too would like to know when it was ever "legal" but became "illegal" to use the PCT hang method in the areas where hanging is allowed (though discouraged)?

                    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 12:44 PM, brucelem12 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                    ...have there been cases of bears figuring out to reel in the cord and chomp off the stick/stop

                    I think they just shake the tree, the stick dislodges, the food falls to the ground. Bears eat. you don't.

                    John Curran Ladd
                    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    I find it difficult the believe shaking a tree would ever displace the stick using a PCT hang properly.  There's tension on the stick both from the carabiner, the weight of the food bag and the knot.  I find it a lot easier to break the stick than trying to "dislodge" it.  I hang food regularly in the So. Cal. Mountains and find this to be the case.

                    Just to speculate without backup documentation.  Whoever wrote the bag hanging requirement was either unfamiliar with the PCT method, didn't like it or or thought his/her way was the only way to go so now to hang "legally" you're required to use the counter balance method. 

                    It reminds me of the toilet paper regulation where everywhere along the trail your required to pack out your toilet paper except in the John Muir Wilderness where the reg says burying it is allowed. 


                    To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                    From: johnladd@...
                    Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 07:53:22 -0700
                    Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Re: 10-days of food in a 7-day Bear Canister?


                     

                    On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 4:44 AM, staehpj1 <Pete.Staehling@...> wrote:
                    You could consider an Ursack or a PCT hang for that portion and by then you will have less food than you left MTR with.

                    PCT hang no longer legal in this area as bears figured it out. 

                    Ursack not legal unless properly hung  -- so Ursack AND a proper hang is OK but Ursack on ground is not.

                    Using a counterbalance hang is legal from MTR south to Pinchot Pass. Using a Ursack as the hang bag gives added protection. If the bear defeats the hang, at least won't get a food reward, though your food will be crushed. 

                    It's hard in that area to find a tree with a branch suitable for hanging. I don't think it is a particularly good technique, though I have used it (properly hung Ursack) in the past successfully. I'm much happier since I bought a bearcan big enough for 10+ days of food (16 in custom Bearikade)

                    Info on counterbalance hanging at 



                  • Todd Foster
                    If Ursack is not tied to tree and it s found by bear it may be carried off to an unfindable distance. I only use Ursack against gnawing varmints, not bears,
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 25 10:23 AM
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                      If Ursack is not tied to tree and it's found by bear it may be carried off to an unfindable distance. 

                      I only use Ursack against gnawing varmints, not bears, not ever. Had an early, double layer Kevlar Ursack that seemed iron clad, and had been zoo bear tested OK penetrated by persistant bear years ago. Not a valid method against bears as far as I'm concerned. Granted, Inyo bears may be stupider, but I'm not doing an IQ test on them. 

                      Then again, I don't want to gamble with my hike. Others don't seem to mind, and talk like they enjoy the challenge. Not why I'm there, and I want a full nights sleep without fending off endlessly returning bears. Once the smart ones (maybe only the brilliant ones) see a bag, whether hanging or on the ground, they don't give up. When they see a can they (so far in my experience) walk right on by. 
                    • Robert
                      Setting aside the legal interpretations, and looking at it in a practical way hanging an Ursack is pointless and defeats its design. If a bear does succeed in
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 25 10:29 AM
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                        Setting aside the legal interpretations, and looking at it in a practical way hanging an Ursack is pointless and defeats its design. If a bear does succeed in getting it down, there is nothing now keeping it from dragging your food and Ursack away to gnaw on it to its hearts content. They are designed to be tied off to something substantial, ie; a stump, large rock, or tree. The bear may not get a food reward, but you might not get your food either!

                        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Don and I do have a different view of this situation which we have aired
                        > before. So if you've read it, you can skip this.
                        >
                        > I think Don reads the regulations in a perfectly logicla way. But it's not
                        > the way that Inyo National Forest or SEKI NP reads them. Don might well win
                        > in a fully argued court case. If I were the magistrate, I'd rule in his
                        > favor.
                        >
                        > But unless you plan on returning to the local federal magistrate court to
                        > protest a ranger-issued citation, the law is what the backcountry ranger
                        > thinks it is. And in my experience, they think that PCT method of hanging
                        > is illegal and that Ursacks on the ground are illegal.
                        >
                        > There is a problem of tying a Ursack to a tree (stripped bark as the bear
                        > tugs at it) but it does not apply to a hung Ursack.
                        >
                        > But, that said, the backcountry rangers would rather talk you into
                        > following their understanding of the requirements than issuing a citation.
                        >
                        > John Dittli will know this way better than I, John - can you add anything
                        > here?
                        >
                        > I suspect part of the thinking on the PCT hang vs counterbalance is that
                        > the one may be done more reliably than the other by the typical Sierra
                        > hiker who hangs.
                        >
                        > John Curran Ladd
                        > 1616 Castro Street
                        > San Francisco, CA 94114-3707
                        > 415-648-9279
                        >
                        >
                        > On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Don Amundson <amrowinc@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > **
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Another year, another ursack discussion. Ursacks do not have to be hung
                        > > in the area where hanging is allowed and they shouldn't be tied to
                        > > anything. See the info from the Ursack web site:
                        > >
                        > > *The Forest Service Order for Inyo National Forest for 2009 allows
                        > > Ursacks. It says: food must be stored in a container designed to prevent
                        > > access by bears.* In the past, Inyo has specified only SIBBG approved
                        > > containers. That is no longer the case. In addition, there are Park
                        > > supplied food storage lockers at 11 locations in that restricted area.
                        > > Remember, it is not illegal to hike anywhere with an Ursack. Only camping
                        > > in a restricted area without an approved bear-resistant container (or food
                        > > locker) is prohibited.
                        > >
                        > > Should the Hybrid be tied to a tree or other fixed object?
                        > > Not in restricted areas of the Sierra National Parks or Forests. Maybe
                        > > elsewhere. Please check local regulations--approval and use of Ursack
                        > > varies from place to place around North America. Some Sierra rangers are
                        > > concerned that tying Ursack to a tree branch or even a rock could lead to
                        > > resource damage as the bear struggles with it. *Therefore the approved
                        > > method of use is to cinch the Ursack tightly closed, TIE A STRONG KNOT, and
                        > > place the Ursack a safe distance from camp.*
                        > >
                        > > I carry a canister. When I have to hang, due to too much food to fit
                        > > everything in a canister, I use a stuff sack.
                        > >
                        > > Out of curiosity I too would like to know when it was ever "legal" but
                        > > became "illegal" to use the PCT hang method in the areas where hanging is
                        > > allowed (though discouraged)?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 12:44 PM, brucelem12 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>wrote:
                        > >
                        > >> ...have there been cases of bears figuring out to reel in the cord and
                        > >> chomp off the stick/stop
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > I think they just shake the tree, the stick dislodges, the food falls to
                        > > the ground. Bears eat. you don't.
                        > >
                        > > John Curran Ladd
                        > >
                        > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > > I find it difficult the believe shaking a tree would ever displace the
                        > > stick using a PCT hang properly. There's tension on the stick both from
                        > > the carabiner, the weight of the food bag and the knot. I find it a lot
                        > > easier to break the stick than trying to "dislodge" it. I hang food
                        > > regularly in the So. Cal. Mountains and find this to be the case.
                        > >
                        > > Just to speculate without backup documentation. Whoever wrote the bag
                        > > hanging requirement was either unfamiliar with the PCT method, didn't like
                        > > it or or thought his/her way was the only way to go so now to hang
                        > > "legally" you're required to use the counter balance method.
                        > >
                        > > It reminds me of the toilet paper regulation where everywhere along the
                        > > trail your required to pack out your toilet paper except in the John Muir
                        > > Wilderness where the reg says burying it is allowed.
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------
                        > > To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                        > > From: johnladd@...
                        > > Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 07:53:22 -0700
                        > > Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Re: 10-days of food in a 7-day Bear
                        > > Canister?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 4:44 AM, staehpj1 <Pete.Staehling@...>wrote:
                        > >
                        > > You could consider an Ursack or a PCT hang for that portion and by then
                        > > you will have less food than you left MTR with.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > PCT hang no longer legal in this area as bears figured it out.
                        > >
                        > > Ursack not legal unless properly hung -- so Ursack AND a proper hang is
                        > > OK but Ursack on ground is not.
                        > >
                        > > Using a counterbalance hang is legal from MTR south to Pinchot Pass. Using
                        > > a Ursack as the hang bag gives added protection. If the bear defeats the
                        > > hang, at least won't get a food reward, though your food will be crushed.
                        > >
                        > > It's hard in that area to find a tree with a branch suitable for hanging.
                        > > I don't think it is a particularly good technique, though I have used it
                        > > (properly hung Ursack) in the past successfully. I'm much happier since I
                        > > bought a bearcan big enough for 10+ days of food (16 in custom Bearikade)
                        > >
                        > > Info on counterbalance hanging at
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johnmuirtrail/links/Bear_protection_001262975015/Hanging_technique_001316696691/
                        > >
                        > > John Curran Ladd
                        > > 1616 Castro Street
                        > > San Francisco, CA 94114-3707
                        > > 415-648-9279
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • John
                        ... Sorry John, I m not sure what the current regs are re Ursac. But regardless of whether it is tied of or hung, they have been shown not to be 100% bear
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 25 11:09 AM
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                          --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:

                          >
                          > John Dittli will know this way better than I, John - can you add anything
                          > here?
                          >

                          Sorry John, I'm not sure what the current regs are re Ursac. But regardless of whether it is tied of or hung, they have been shown not to be 100% bear proof. My feeling is that the Ursac is just a deterrent and your food will still need to be defended if a bear takes interest.

                          As someone mentioned, defending can lead to a very restless night, but better than loosing your food.

                          John
                        • John Ladd
                          ... In the National Forest field study of the Ursack, bears did not carry off unsecured Ursacks very far at all. http://www.ursack.com/sibbg_abstract.htm
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jun 26 5:07 PM
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                            On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Todd Foster <ptoddf@...> wrote:
                            If Ursack is not tied to tree and it's found by bear it may be carried off to an unfindable distance. 

                            In the National Forest field study of the Ursack, bears did not carry off unsecured Ursacks very far at all. 


                            "Bears carried inadequately-secured Ursacks short distances suggesting that users should be able to locate most bags that might get carried off by bears. Distances carried during the four tests were 0.3m, 1.6 m, 5.8 m, and somewhere between 41 and 67 m."

                            They are white and pretty visible. I admit that they "may" be carried off. If the Ursack only has supplemental food that doesn't fit in a real bearcan, it's a risk perhaps worth taking if you arfe in an area where leaving an Ursack on the ground is legal.

                            John Curran Ladd
                            1616 Castro Street
                            San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                            415-648-9279
                          • Allen Freeman
                            I hope those are (m)eters and not (m)iles! -- ~~~~~ Allen F. Freeman allen@allenf.com www.allenf.com www.allenf.com/blog “May your trails be crooked,
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jun 26 5:37 PM
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                              I hope those are (m)eters and not (m)iles!

                              --
                              ~~~~~
                              Allen F. Freeman
                              allen@...
                              www.allenf.com
                              www.allenf.com/blog

                              “May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds.”
                              -Edward Abbey


                              On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 8:07 PM, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:


                              On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Todd Foster <ptoddf@...> wrote:
                              If Ursack is not tied to tree and it's found by bear it may be carried off to an unfindable distance. 

                              In the National Forest field study of the Ursack, bears did not carry off unsecured Ursacks very far at all. 


                              "Bears carried inadequately-secured Ursacks short distances suggesting that users should be able to locate most bags that might get carried off by bears. Distances carried during the four tests were 0.3m, 1.6 m, 5.8 m, and somewhere between 41 and 67 m."

                              They are white and pretty visible. I admit that they "may" be carried off. If the Ursack only has supplemental food that doesn't fit in a real bearcan, it's a risk perhaps worth taking if you arfe in an area where leaving an Ursack on the ground is legal.

                              John Curran Ladd
                              1616 Castro Street
                              San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                              415-648-9279



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