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Re: [John Muir Trail] Tuolomne permit

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  • Roleigh Martin
    Bob, others, What about the Rafferty Creek- Vogelsang TH option. Both Rafferty Creek- Vogelsang and Lyell Canyon options both have Vogelsang High
    Message 1 of 27 , Feb 6, 2013
    Bob, others,

    What about the "Rafferty Creek->Vogelsang" TH option.  Both "Rafferty Creek->Vogelsang" and "Lyell Canyon" options both have "Vogelsang High Sierra Camp........................." as an interim point (it may be the Vogelsang High Sierra Camp junction and there may be two of them (one from one side, the other from another side) though.  

    I'd call up the Permit Office and ask them if you could do it this way.  After all, on this page:

    John Muir Trail
    If you plan to hike the John Muir Trail as a continuous hike, you only need one wilderness permit for the entire trip (you do not need a "Whitney stamp"). Most people begin the hike at Happy Isles (its traditional start in Yosemite Valley), however many people begin at Lyell Canyon (Tuolumne Meadows) because permits for this trailhead are slightly easier to obtain. There is no special JMT permit.


    It just says you need one wilderness permit for the entire trip. On a poster-size entire JMT map I got, it looks like worse case, you do two sides of a triangle versus one side of a triangle to get to the same point on the JMT, making it slightly a longer JMT hike.  See photo attached.  You'd take a SE directional turn near Tuolumne Pass to head back to the JMT bypassing Evelyn Lake.

    Map is in the back of the book as a fold-out map to the old book, Starr's Guide to the John Muir Trail and the High Sierra Region, by Walter A. Starr, Jr., 11th revised edition, copyright 1970.

    -------------------------------------------------
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    On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 6:57 PM, robert shattuck <bobolonius@...> wrote:
     

    isn't the other TM option, mono pass? 




    Bob
    http://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480




    To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
    From: roleigh@...
    Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 18:56:01 -0500
    Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Tuolomne permit


     
    What is the link that shows you all the permit options leaving TM to Whitney?  I know the Happy Isles set of options but not TM.  Sorry, if you give me that link, since I've done the JMT 5 times, I should be able to help you figure out a fallback option or 2.  

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    On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 6:02 PM, editgirl03 <jenprior@...> wrote:
     
    Hi, I'm new here and have been reading and gathering info for my July/Aug. JMT hike. I want to thank you all for the good info here. It has been a lifesaver for my planning.

    I plan to leave from Tuolomne Meadows via Lyell Creek on Sunday July 28. A couple of questions I would be grateful for answers to:

    1) I plan to fax my permit application just after 5 pm this Friday, Feb. 8. This is because they take Sunday reservations starting post-5 pm Friday 24 weeks before. Correct?

    2) I plan to put Lyell Creek as my first entry trailhead, obviously. But what if (and I realize there's a good chance I'll get a permit, but I'm a worrier) I don't get that first option. What should I list and the second and third entry trailheads that will get me on the trail from Tuolomn? Do a second and third option from there even exist without lost of backtracking and going in opposite directions?

    Thanks!





  • John Ladd
    Here s a page listing YNP trailheads, including from Tuolumne and off Tioga Pass Road. Many of these not practical for JMT, but they might help you find
    Message 2 of 27 , Feb 6, 2013
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      Here's a page listing YNP trailheads, including from Tuolumne and off Tioga Pass Road. Many of these not practical for JMT, but they might help you find alternative possible routings for your second and third choices.


      John Curran Ladd
      1616 Castro Street
      San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
      415-648-9279


      On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 3:56 PM, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...> wrote:
       

      What is the link that shows you all the permit options leaving TM to Whitney?  I know the Happy Isles set of options but not TM.  Sorry, if you give me that link, since I've done the JMT 5 times, I should be able to help you figure out a fallback option or 2.  

      -------------------------------------------------
      Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
      _



      On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 6:02 PM, editgirl03 <jenprior@...> wrote:
       

      Hi, I'm new here and have been reading and gathering info for my July/Aug. JMT hike. I want to thank you all for the good info here. It has been a lifesaver for my planning.

      I plan to leave from Tuolomne Meadows via Lyell Creek on Sunday July 28. A couple of questions I would be grateful for answers to:

      1) I plan to fax my permit application just after 5 pm this Friday, Feb. 8. This is because they take Sunday reservations starting post-5 pm Friday 24 weeks before. Correct?

      2) I plan to put Lyell Creek as my first entry trailhead, obviously. But what if (and I realize there's a good chance I'll get a permit, but I'm a worrier) I don't get that first option. What should I list and the second and third entry trailheads that will get me on the trail from Tuolomn? Do a second and third option from there even exist without lost of backtracking and going in opposite directions?

      Thanks!



    • John
      ... I believe the Rafferty Creek permit is designed to separate those wishing to hike over Volgelsang Pass from those that wish to continue up the Lyell Fork.
      Message 3 of 27 , Feb 6, 2013
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        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin wrote:
        >
        > Bob, others,
        >
        > What about the "Rafferty Creek->Vogelsang" TH option. Both "Rafferty
        > Creek->Vogelsang" and "Lyell Canyon" options both have "Vogelsang High
        > Sierra Camp........................." 

        I believe the Rafferty Creek permit is designed to separate those wishing to hike over Volgelsang Pass from those that wish to continue up the Lyell Fork. To intersect the JMT via Volgelsang is a very long, albeit interesting, detour. One would intersect the JMT near Devil's Postpile.

        JD
        Walk the Sky
         
      • Gail
        Cathedral Lakes appears to be an option from Tuolumne. From the Yosemite NP Trailhead Information page (http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/trailheads.htm):
        Message 4 of 27 , Feb 6, 2013
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          Cathedral Lakes appears to be an option from Tuolumne. From the Yosemite NP Trailhead Information page (http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/trailheads.htm):

          "Why isn't the John Muir Trail listed?
          The John Muir Trail can be directly accessed via three separate trailheads:

          From Yosemite Valley: Happy Isles to Sunrise/Merced Lake (pass through)
          From Tuolumne Meadows to Yosemite Valley: Cathedral Lakes
          From Tuolumne Meadows exiting the park: Lyell Canyon"

          --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" wrote:
          >
          >
          > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin wrote:
          > >
          > > Bob, others,
          > >
          > > What about the "Rafferty Creek->Vogelsang" TH option. Both "Rafferty
          > > Creek->Vogelsang" and "Lyell Canyon" options both have "Vogelsang High
          > > Sierra Camp........................."
          >
          > I believe the Rafferty Creek permit is designed to separate those
          > wishing to hike over Volgelsang Pass from those that wish to continue up
          > the Lyell Fork. To intersect the JMT via Volgelsang is a very long,
          > albeit interesting, detour. One would intersect the JMT near Devil's
          > Postpile.
          > JDWalk the Sky
          >
        • jaymiche@ymail.com
          Last year I tried for a permit reservation from TM, but got my 2nd choice, Mono Pass, a few miles east of TM on Tioga Pass Rd. You can get to that trailhead
          Message 5 of 27 , Feb 6, 2013
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            Last year I tried for a permit reservation from TM, but got my 2nd choice, Mono Pass, a few miles east of TM on Tioga Pass Rd. You can get to that trailhead on the bus that runs inside the park. When we arrived to pick up the permit, there were plenty of TM spots open so we used that TH instead. Either way would work fine unless you really want to stick to the JMT only.

            --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "editgirl03" wrote:
            >
            > Hi, I'm new here and have been reading and gathering info for my July/Aug. JMT hike. I want to thank you all for the good info here. It has been a lifesaver for my planning.
            >
            > I plan to leave from Tuolomne Meadows via Lyell Creek on Sunday July 28. A couple of questions I would be grateful for answers to:
            >
            > 1) I plan to fax my permit application just after 5 pm this Friday, Feb. 8. This is because they take Sunday reservations starting post-5 pm Friday 24 weeks before. Correct?
            >
            > 2) I plan to put Lyell Creek as my first entry trailhead, obviously. But what if (and I realize there's a good chance I'll get a permit, but I'm a worrier) I don't get that first option. What should I list and the second and third entry trailheads that will get me on the trail from Tuolomn? Do a second and third option from there even exist without lost of backtracking and going in opposite directions?
            >
            > Thanks!
            >
          • Roleigh Martin
            Cathedral Lakes though is going in the opposite direction than what she wants, if she goes that way her JMT hike ends in 21 miles, she is interested in going
            Message 6 of 27 , Feb 6, 2013
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              Cathedral Lakes though is going in the opposite direction than what she wants, if she goes that way her JMT hike ends in 21 miles, she is interested in going the other way.  Now, if one is allowed to use this TH option to camp at Cathedral Lakes the first night then turn around and go back on the JMT, that is something to ask about too.  It's only about 4 miles from TM.
              -------------------------------------------------
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              _



              On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 10:20 PM, Gail <forgetwho@...> wrote:
               


              Cathedral Lakes appears to be an option from Tuolumne. From the Yosemite NP Trailhead Information page (http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/trailheads.htm):

              "Why isn't the John Muir Trail listed?
              The John Muir Trail can be directly accessed via three separate trailheads:

              From Yosemite Valley: Happy Isles to Sunrise/Merced Lake (pass through)
              From Tuolumne Meadows to Yosemite Valley: Cathedral Lakes
              From Tuolumne Meadows exiting the park: Lyell Canyon"



              --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" wrote:
              >
              >
              > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin wrote:
              > >
              > > Bob, others,
              > >
              > > What about the "Rafferty Creek->Vogelsang" TH option. Both "Rafferty
              > > Creek->Vogelsang" and "Lyell Canyon" options both have "Vogelsang High
              > > Sierra Camp........................."
              >
              > I believe the Rafferty Creek permit is designed to separate those
              > wishing to hike over Volgelsang Pass from those that wish to continue up
              > the Lyell Fork. To intersect the JMT via Volgelsang is a very long,
              > albeit interesting, detour. One would intersect the JMT near Devil's
              > Postpile.
              > JDWalk the Sky
              >


            • dosten
              I got my permit for a 7/17 departure from Toulumne Meadows. Faxed it in the first eligible morning. I put alternatives from other trailheads but got my first
              Message 7 of 27 , Feb 6, 2013
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                I got my permit for a 7/17 departure from Toulumne Meadows. Faxed it in the first eligible morning.
                I put alternatives from other trailheads but got my first choice.
              • Jacob
                Sent from my Verizon Wireless smartphone
                Message 8 of 27 , Feb 6, 2013
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                  Sent from my Verizon Wireless smartphone

                  John <johndittli@...> wrote:

                  >
                  >--- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin wrote:
                  >>
                  >> Bob, others,
                  >>
                  >> What about the "Rafferty Creek->Vogelsang" TH option. Both "Rafferty
                  >> Creek->Vogelsang" and "Lyell Canyon" options both have "Vogelsang High
                  >> Sierra Camp........................."
                  >
                  >I believe the Rafferty Creek permit is designed to separate those
                  >wishing to hike over Volgelsang Pass from those that wish to continue up
                  >the Lyell Fork. To intersect the JMT via Volgelsang is a very long,
                  >albeit interesting, detour. One would intersect the JMT near Devil's
                  >Postpile.
                  >JDWalk the Sky
                • Roleigh Martin
                  Attached is a better JPG of what I m talking about. John Dittli, I can t imagine why one could not file for a JMT hike, starting with the Rafferty
                  Message 9 of 27 , Feb 10, 2013
                  Attached is a better JPG of what I'm talking about.  John Dittli, I can't imagine why one could not file for a JMT hike, starting with the Rafferty Creek->Vogelsang option, can you?  True, one would get to higher elevations faster and should have an altitude acclimatization before hand.

                  See attached.

                  This is from the Tom Harrison Yosemite High Country Trail Map, and Tom Harrison has in writing given me permission to use a tiny snapshot of any of his JMT related maps to illustrate in Trailhead Options.  Thanks, Tom.  And I want to again recommend looking at Tom Harrison Maps.  Did you know his 13 page Tom Harrison Map App for the Iphone is available at the Apple Store, and it, along with the Bad Elf GPS add-on (about the size of a quarter), allowed me to see within 50 feet where I was at on the JMT even though the Iphone was in Airplane mode (preserving battery life because otherwise the Iphone would constantly be seeking at least an Edge signal, something one can not turn off).
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                  _



                  On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...> wrote:
                  Bob, others,

                  What about the "Rafferty Creek->Vogelsang" TH option.  Both "Rafferty Creek->Vogelsang" and "Lyell Canyon" options both have "Vogelsang High Sierra Camp........................." as an interim point (it may be the Vogelsang High Sierra Camp junction and there may be two of them (one from one side, the other from another side) though.  

                  I'd call up the Permit Office and ask them if you could do it this way.  After all, on this page:

                  John Muir Trail
                  If you plan to hike the John Muir Trail as a continuous hike, you only need one wilderness permit for the entire trip (you do not need a "Whitney stamp"). Most people begin the hike at Happy Isles (its traditional start in Yosemite Valley), however many people begin at Lyell Canyon (Tuolumne Meadows) because permits for this trailhead are slightly easier to obtain. There is no special JMT permit.


                  It just says you need one wilderness permit for the entire trip. On a poster-size entire JMT map I got, it looks like worse case, you do two sides of a triangle versus one side of a triangle to get to the same point on the JMT, making it slightly a longer JMT hike.  See photo attached.  You'd take a SE directional turn near Tuolumne Pass to head back to the JMT bypassing Evelyn Lake.

                  Map is in the back of the book as a fold-out map to the old book, Starr's Guide to the John Muir Trail and the High Sierra Region, by Walter A. Starr, Jr., 11th revised edition, copyright 1970.

                  -------------------------------------------------
                  Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
                  _



                  On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 6:57 PM, robert shattuck <bobolonius@...> wrote:
                   

                  isn't the other TM option, mono pass? 




                  Bob
                  http://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480




                  To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                  From: roleigh@...
                  Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 18:56:01 -0500
                  Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Tuolomne permit


                   
                  What is the link that shows you all the permit options leaving TM to Whitney?  I know the Happy Isles set of options but not TM.  Sorry, if you give me that link, since I've done the JMT 5 times, I should be able to help you figure out a fallback option or 2.  

                  -------------------------------------------------
                  Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
                  _



                  On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 6:02 PM, editgirl03 <jenprior@...> wrote:
                   
                  Hi, I'm new here and have been reading and gathering info for my July/Aug. JMT hike. I want to thank you all for the good info here. It has been a lifesaver for my planning.

                  I plan to leave from Tuolomne Meadows via Lyell Creek on Sunday July 28. A couple of questions I would be grateful for answers to:

                  1) I plan to fax my permit application just after 5 pm this Friday, Feb. 8. This is because they take Sunday reservations starting post-5 pm Friday 24 weeks before. Correct?

                  2) I plan to put Lyell Creek as my first entry trailhead, obviously. But what if (and I realize there's a good chance I'll get a permit, but I'm a worrier) I don't get that first option. What should I list and the second and third entry trailheads that will get me on the trail from Tuolomn? Do a second and third option from there even exist without lost of backtracking and going in opposite directions?

                  Thanks!






                • John
                  ... can t ... Rafferty ... elevations ... I think one can file for a JMT permit starting at Rafferty Creek. I still don t think that is what the Rafferty Creek
                  Message 10 of 27 , Feb 10, 2013
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                    --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin wrote:
                    >
                    > Attached is a better JPG of what I'm talking about. John Dittli, I can't
                    > imagine why one could not file for a JMT hike, starting with the Rafferty
                    > Creek->Vogelsang option, can you? True, one would get to higher elevations
                    > faster and should have an altitude acclimatization before hand.

                    I think one can file for a JMT permit starting at Rafferty Creek. I still don't think that is what the Rafferty Creek permit is intended for.  As stated, I believe it is intended for those wishing to visit places other than the Lyell Fk (JMT), that is why they have a split issue, even though it starts a the same TH. As the JMT gets more popular, and people get more "creative" in the permit process, it ultimately effects other users not doing the JMT. 

                    Imagine (as you and I have discussed), that Half Dome hikers start applying for JMT permits just so they can do Half Dome. That will/does have a significant impact on those wanting a legitimate HI JMT permit. This is one of the reasons I don't think a Half Dome permit should  be included in a JMT issue.

                    I'm not trying to lay a guilt trip on anyone, but as an ex-ranger, just spelling out the big picture. Using Rafferty Creek isn't really a different trailhead/approach like Mono Pass, but rather a loop(hole).

                    Beyond that, I can say I've hiked Rafferty Creek many times. It is a heavily traveled horse trail used for stocking Volgelsang. In many places it is paved with cobbles that get covered with sand and really not that much fun going down; up is fine. It is steep in the beginning but then kind of levels. After the turnoff to Evelyn it is much better and very scenic.

                    JD
                    Walk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trail
                  • gkahn21
                    John, I agree with you but just wondering why you only think Rafferty Creek is a loophole while Happy Isles- Illilouette isn t, or Glacier Point- Illilouette
                    Message 11 of 27 , Feb 12, 2013
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                      John,

                      I agree with you but just wondering why you only think Rafferty Creek is a loophole while Happy Isles->Illilouette isn't, or Glacier Point->Illilouette too. To me it seems almost an identical situation.

                      --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "John" wrote:
                      > I think one can file for a JMT permit starting at Rafferty Creek. I
                      > still don't think that is what the Rafferty Creek permit is intended
                      > for. As stated, I believe it is intended for those wishing to visit
                      > places other than the Lyell Fk (JMT), that is why they have a split
                      > issue, even though it starts a the same TH. As the JMT gets more
                      > popular, and people get more "creative" in the permit process, it
                      > ultimately effects other users not doing the JMT.
                      > Imagine (as you and I have discussed), that Half Dome hikers start
                      > applying for JMT permits just so they can do Half Dome. That will/does
                      > have a significant impact on those wanting a legitimate HI JMT permit.
                      > This is one of the reasons I don't think a Half Dome permit should be
                      > included in a JMT issue.
                      > I'm not trying to lay a guilt trip on anyone, but as an ex-ranger, just
                      > spelling out the big picture. Using Rafferty Creek isn't really a
                      > different trailhead/approach like Mono Pass, but rather a loop(hole).
                      > Beyond that, I can say I've hiked Rafferty Creek many times. It is a
                      > heavily traveled horse trail used for stocking Volgelsang. In many
                      > places it is paved with cobbles that get covered with sand and really
                      > not that much fun going down; up is fine. It is steep in the beginning
                      > but then kind of levels. After the turnoff to Evelyn it is much better
                      > and very scenic.
                      > JDWalk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trailsee book here
                      >
                      >
                    • Roleigh Martin
                      John, Good points. The way I look at it is I see these things happening: 1. Yosemite goes out of the way on their JMT page:
                      Message 12 of 27 , Feb 12, 2013
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                        John,

                        Good points.  The way I look at it is I see these things happening:

                        1.  Yosemite goes out of the way on their JMT page:
                              to state

                        John Muir Trail
                        If you plan to hike the John Muir Trail as a continuous hike, you only need one wilderness permit for the entire trip (you do not need a "Whitney stamp"). Most people begin the hike at Happy Isles (its traditional start in Yosemite Valley), however many people begin at Lyell Canyon (Tuolumne Meadows) because permits for this trailhead are slightly easier to obtain. There is no special JMT permit.

                        2.  Abiding literally by the above does not seem like that akin to going through thousands of pages of tax law to find a loophole.  It seems to me when people get these less popular permits to do the JMT, they're just following the above paragraph to the "T".  It seems to me that those in the Park Service who say "yea but normally hikers do it via routes a,b,c" are not talking based upon any published rule but rather traditional pattern recognition of how permits were done.

                        3.  Some of the backcountry rangers I've talked to on the JMT tell me that they're job security is dependent upon having adequate hikers do remote backcountry long distance hikes and they're all for seeing people on the JMT.  I have not met one backcountry ranger who is irked by JMT hikers who are doing the JMT via non-traditional entry TH permits.  

                        4.  As for your comment about half-dome hikers and the JMT, I wonder if that is not already happening, for the number of JMT permits seems to be far higher than those who complete the JMT.  I know we've had this discussion before so I will grant you that the JMT seems to be getting more popular, but that has to be very recent in light of conversations I've had with backcountry rangers only 2-3 years ago about usage on the JMT.  Back then, (a few years ago), rangers were complaining about the lack of backpackers now versus 20-30 years ago.

                        Roleigh

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                      • gkahn21
                        1 & 2. I don t think they go out of their way to state using other trailheads at all. They only list two trailheads, making it seem that those are the only two
                        Message 13 of 27 , Feb 13, 2013
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                          1 & 2.

                          I don't think they go out of their way to state using other trailheads at all. They only list two trailheads, making it seem that those are the only two ones, and don't mention other trailheads as a possibility. In my mind, if they were to go out of their way to endorse using other trailheads, they would simply state that.

                          A loophole is the same regardless if it is fairly obvious or buried as you say in thousands of pages of tax law. It's still a loophole. And yes, loopholes are legal, but that doesn't make them ethical or something that should be done.

                          3. We have heard plenty of stories about rangers being irked by JMT hikers using non-traditional trailheads, so your experience might be different. You might have encountered one but they just didn't say anything about it. Plus, I doubt that a backcountry ranger in sequoia knows the intricacies of the different trailheads in Yosemite and wouldn't know the difference between traditional and non-traditional trailheads.

                          I agree that the rangers would want more hikers in the backcountry but only to a point. I bet they wouldn't want unlimited hikers or too many hikers and still would want limits on the number of hikers entering an area.

                          This alternative trailhead thing seems very odd to me. The whole purpose of a trailhead quota system is to limit the amount of people in a certain area so that there is not overuse. But with an alternative trailhead, after spending a day going somewhere you don't really want to go, you can go where you really wanted to go in the first place but was full. How does that limit overcrowding at all? Plus there is a multitude of alternative trailheads, so as long as you spend one night away from the JMT, you can hike the whole JMT. It's practically unlimited. I don't get how that makes sense. Have you had anyone not be able to get a JMT permit using some sort of alternative trailhead? With all the limitations on Half Dome in the recent years, I'm just worried something like that will happen for the JMT too and make it harder for people who try to do the right thing.



                          --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin wrote:
                          >
                          > John,
                          >
                          > Good points. The way I look at it is I see these things happening:
                          >
                          > 1. Yosemite goes out of the way on their JMT page:
                          > http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/jmt.htm
                          > to state
                          >
                          > *John Muir Trail*
                          > If you plan to hike the John Muir Trail as a continuous hike, you only need
                          > one wilderness permit
                          > for
                          > the entire trip (you do not need a "Whitney stamp"). Most people begin the
                          > hike at Happy Isles (its traditional start in Yosemite Valley), however
                          > many people begin at Lyell Canyon (Tuolumne Meadows) because permits for
                          > this trailhead are slightly easier to obtain. There is no special JMT
                          > permit.
                          >
                          > 2. Abiding literally by the above does not seem like that akin to going
                          > through thousands of pages of tax law to find a loophole. It seems to me
                          > when people get these less popular permits to do the JMT, they're just
                          > following the above paragraph to the "T". It seems to me that those in the
                          > Park Service who say "yea but normally hikers do it via routes a,b,c" are
                          > not talking based upon any published rule but rather traditional pattern
                          > recognition of how permits were done.
                          >
                          > 3. Some of the backcountry rangers I've talked to on the JMT tell me that
                          > they're job security is dependent upon having adequate hikers do remote
                          > backcountry long distance hikes and they're all for seeing people on the
                          > JMT. I have not met one backcountry ranger who is irked by JMT hikers who
                          > are doing the JMT via non-traditional entry TH permits.
                          >
                          > 4. As for your comment about half-dome hikers and the JMT, I wonder if
                          > that is not already happening, for the number of JMT permits seems to be
                          > far higher than those who complete the JMT. I know we've had this
                          > discussion before so I will grant you that the JMT seems to be getting more
                          > popular, but that has to be very recent in light of conversations I've had
                          > with backcountry rangers only 2-3 years ago about usage on the JMT. Back
                          > then, (a few years ago), rangers were complaining about the lack of
                          > backpackers now versus 20-30 years ago.
                          >
                          > Roleigh
                          >
                          > -------------------------------------------------
                          > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
                          > links)
                          >
                        • editgirl03
                          Thanks Roleigh and everyone for their help--I managed to get my first choice, the Lyell Canyon 7/28 departure, whoopee! So I no longer need to investigate the
                          Message 14 of 27 , Feb 13, 2013
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                            Thanks Roleigh and everyone for their help--I managed to get my first choice, the Lyell Canyon 7/28 departure, whoopee! So I no longer need to investigate the possibility and ethics of a Rafferty entry. Am feeling thrilled and grateful to be able to plan a hike like this. Cannot wait.

                            --Jennifer


                            --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin wrote:
                            >
                            > John,
                            >
                            > Good points. The way I look at it is I see these things happening:
                            >
                            > 1. Yosemite goes out of the way on their JMT page:
                            > http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/jmt.htm
                            > to state
                            >
                            > *John Muir Trail*
                            > If you plan to hike the John Muir Trail as a continuous hike, you only need
                            > one wilderness permit
                            > for
                            > the entire trip (you do not need a "Whitney stamp"). Most people begin the
                            > hike at Happy Isles (its traditional start in Yosemite Valley), however
                            > many people begin at Lyell Canyon (Tuolumne Meadows) because permits for
                            > this trailhead are slightly easier to obtain. There is no special JMT
                            > permit.
                            >
                            > 2. Abiding literally by the above does not seem like that akin to going
                            > through thousands of pages of tax law to find a loophole. It seems to me
                            > when people get these less popular permits to do the JMT, they're just
                            > following the above paragraph to the "T". It seems to me that those in the
                            > Park Service who say "yea but normally hikers do it via routes a,b,c" are
                            > not talking based upon any published rule but rather traditional pattern
                            > recognition of how permits were done.
                            >
                            > 3. Some of the backcountry rangers I've talked to on the JMT tell me that
                            > they're job security is dependent upon having adequate hikers do remote
                            > backcountry long distance hikes and they're all for seeing people on the
                            > JMT. I have not met one backcountry ranger who is irked by JMT hikers who
                            > are doing the JMT via non-traditional entry TH permits.
                            >
                            > 4. As for your comment about half-dome hikers and the JMT, I wonder if
                            > that is not already happening, for the number of JMT permits seems to be
                            > far higher than those who complete the JMT. I know we've had this
                            > discussion before so I will grant you that the JMT seems to be getting more
                            > popular, but that has to be very recent in light of conversations I've had
                            > with backcountry rangers only 2-3 years ago about usage on the JMT. Back
                            > then, (a few years ago), rangers were complaining about the lack of
                            > backpackers now versus 20-30 years ago.
                            >
                            > Roleigh
                            >
                            > -------------------------------------------------
                            > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
                            > links)
                            >
                          • Roleigh Martin
                            GK (I don t know your first name), Respectfully, I have never read of any ethical admonition that says one can not think out of the box which is what the
                            Message 15 of 27 , Feb 13, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              GK (I don't know your first name),

                              Respectfully, I have never read of any ethical admonition that says "one can not think out of the box" which is what the alternative Trailhead Permit strategy represents.  I see nothing unethical about it at all.

                              Are those people who can solve this puzzle unethical?  It's a great puzzle I came across in high school.


                              One has to think outside the box to solve it.

                              Anyway, the Yosemite National Park has complete control over their own rules and on the content of what is put on their JMT page.  

                              I think what we are hearing are the individual opinions of some people who work at Yosemite who dislike the rules in place and wish there were fewer people doing the JMT.  I happen to think that some of these people happen to work in the wilderness permit office.  I had my Mono Meadow permit request rejected last year but when I called up and talked to a ranger, I was able to get that rejected permit accepted.  I just pointed out that the quota for that trail had not been consumed and that I was abiding by the rules on the JMT page and he agreed and let me have the permit.

                              I do not think ethics requires JMT board members here to respect the unofficial wishes of all who work in the wilderness permit office but ethics does require that we are polite, attentive to the rules, and be honest in our communications, and when we are on the trail, to abide by the rules for the trail.

                              As for the trails being crowded.  I have not felt or experienced a problem myself on the trail.  I suspect the head of Yosemite would be pleased if the quota system was fully utilized by hikers, despite how many miles they really want to hike once they get the permit, for then I would suspect that the budget for Yosemite could justifiably be maintained or increased for the next year.  

                              Roleigh
                              -------------------------------------------------
                              Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
                              _



                              On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 12:50 PM, gkahn21 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                               

                              1 & 2.

                              I don't think they go out of their way to state using other trailheads at all. They only list two trailheads, making it seem that those are the only two ones, and don't mention other trailheads as a possibility. In my mind, if they were to go out of their way to endorse using other trailheads, they would simply state that.

                              A loophole is the same regardless if it is fairly obvious or buried as you say in thousands of pages of tax law. It's still a loophole. And yes, loopholes are legal, but that doesn't make them ethical or something that should be done.

                              3. We have heard plenty of stories about rangers being irked by JMT hikers using non-traditional trailheads, so your experience might be different. You might have encountered one but they just didn't say anything about it. Plus, I doubt that a backcountry ranger in sequoia knows the intricacies of the different trailheads in Yosemite and wouldn't know the difference between traditional and non-traditional trailheads.

                              I agree that the rangers would want more hikers in the backcountry but only to a point. I bet they wouldn't want unlimited hikers or too many hikers and still would want limits on the number of hikers entering an area.

                              This alternative trailhead thing seems very odd to me. The whole purpose of a trailhead quota system is to limit the amount of people in a certain area so that there is not overuse. But with an alternative trailhead, after spending a day going somewhere you don't really want to go, you can go where you really wanted to go in the first place but was full. How does that limit overcrowding at all? Plus there is a multitude of alternative trailheads, so as long as you spend one night away from the JMT, you can hike the whole JMT. It's practically unlimited. I don't get how that makes sense. Have you had anyone not be able to get a JMT permit using some sort of alternative trailhead? With all the limitations on Half Dome in the recent years, I'm just worried something like that will happen for the JMT too and make it harder for people who try to do the right thing.



                              --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin wrote:
                              >
                              > John,
                              >
                              > Good points. The way I look at it is I see these things happening:
                              >
                              > 1. Yosemite goes out of the way on their JMT page:
                              > http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/jmt.htm
                              > to state
                              >
                              > *John Muir Trail*

                              > If you plan to hike the John Muir Trail as a continuous hike, you only need
                              > one wilderness permit
                              > for
                              > the entire trip (you do not need a "Whitney stamp"). Most people begin the
                              > hike at Happy Isles (its traditional start in Yosemite Valley), however
                              > many people begin at Lyell Canyon (Tuolumne Meadows) because permits for
                              > this trailhead are slightly easier to obtain. There is no special JMT
                              > permit.
                              >
                              > 2. Abiding literally by the above does not seem like that akin to going
                              > through thousands of pages of tax law to find a loophole. It seems to me
                              > when people get these less popular permits to do the JMT, they're just
                              > following the above paragraph to the "T". It seems to me that those in the
                              > Park Service who say "yea but normally hikers do it via routes a,b,c" are
                              > not talking based upon any published rule but rather traditional pattern
                              > recognition of how permits were done.
                              >
                              > 3. Some of the backcountry rangers I've talked to on the JMT tell me that
                              > they're job security is dependent upon having adequate hikers do remote
                              > backcountry long distance hikes and they're all for seeing people on the
                              > JMT. I have not met one backcountry ranger who is irked by JMT hikers who
                              > are doing the JMT via non-traditional entry TH permits.
                              >
                              > 4. As for your comment about half-dome hikers and the JMT, I wonder if
                              > that is not already happening, for the number of JMT permits seems to be
                              > far higher than those who complete the JMT. I know we've had this
                              > discussion before so I will grant you that the JMT seems to be getting more
                              > popular, but that has to be very recent in light of conversations I've had
                              > with backcountry rangers only 2-3 years ago about usage on the JMT. Back
                              > then, (a few years ago), rangers were complaining about the lack of
                              > backpackers now versus 20-30 years ago.
                              >
                              > Roleigh
                              >
                              > -------------------------------------------------
                              > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
                              > links)
                              >


                            • charliepolecat
                              The puzzle is a classic and easy to solve, as long as you literally think outside the box, in other words the lines have to pass outside the box. But other
                              Message 16 of 27 , Feb 13, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                The puzzle is a classic and easy to solve, as long as you literally think outside the box, in other words the lines have to pass outside the box.

                                But other than that, I am urged to ask Roleigh, "What the..."?



                                --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin wrote:
                                >
                                > GK (I don't know your first name),
                                >
                                > Respectfully, I have never read of any ethical admonition that says "one
                                > can not think out of the box" which is what the alternative Trailhead
                                > Permit strategy represents. I see nothing unethical about it at all.
                                >
                                > Are those people who can solve this puzzle unethical? It's a great puzzle
                                > I came across in high school.
                                >
                                > http://mathforum.org/k12/k12puzzles/join.dots.html
                                >
                                > One has to think outside the box to solve it.
                                >
                                > Anyway, the Yosemite National Park has complete control over their own
                                > rules and on the content of what is put on their JMT page.
                                >
                                > I think what we are hearing are the individual opinions of some people who
                                > work at Yosemite who dislike the rules in place and wish there were fewer
                                > people doing the JMT. I happen to think that some of these people happen
                                > to work in the wilderness permit office. I had my Mono Meadow permit
                                > request rejected last year but when I called up and talked to a ranger, I
                                > was able to get that rejected permit accepted. I just pointed out that the
                                > quota for that trail had not been consumed and that I was abiding by the
                                > rules on the JMT page and he agreed and let me have the permit.
                                >
                                > I do not think ethics requires JMT board members here to respect the
                                > unofficial wishes of all who work in the wilderness permit office but
                                > ethics does require that we are polite, attentive to the rules, and be
                                > honest in our communications, and when we are on the trail, to abide by the
                                > rules for the trail.
                                >
                                > As for the trails being crowded. I have not felt or experienced a problem
                                > myself on the trail. I suspect the head of Yosemite would be pleased if
                                > the quota system was fully utilized by hikers, despite how many miles they
                                > really want to hike once they get the permit, for then I would suspect that
                                > the budget for Yosemite could justifiably be maintained or increased for
                                > the next year.
                                >
                                > Roleigh
                                > -------------------------------------------------
                                > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
                                > links)
                                > _
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 12:50 PM, gkahn21 wrote:
                                >
                                > > **
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > 1 & 2.
                                > >
                                > > I don't think they go out of their way to state using other trailheads at
                                > > all. They only list two trailheads, making it seem that those are the only
                                > > two ones, and don't mention other trailheads as a possibility. In my mind,
                                > > if they were to go out of their way to endorse using other trailheads, they
                                > > would simply state that.
                                > >
                                > > A loophole is the same regardless if it is fairly obvious or buried as you
                                > > say in thousands of pages of tax law. It's still a loophole. And yes,
                                > > loopholes are legal, but that doesn't make them ethical or something that
                                > > should be done.
                                > >
                                > > 3. We have heard plenty of stories about rangers being irked by JMT hikers
                                > > using non-traditional trailheads, so your experience might be different.
                                > > You might have encountered one but they just didn't say anything about it.
                                > > Plus, I doubt that a backcountry ranger in sequoia knows the intricacies of
                                > > the different trailheads in Yosemite and wouldn't know the difference
                                > > between traditional and non-traditional trailheads.
                                > >
                                > > I agree that the rangers would want more hikers in the backcountry but
                                > > only to a point. I bet they wouldn't want unlimited hikers or too many
                                > > hikers and still would want limits on the number of hikers entering an area.
                                > >
                                > > This alternative trailhead thing seems very odd to me. The whole purpose
                                > > of a trailhead quota system is to limit the amount of people in a certain
                                > > area so that there is not overuse. But with an alternative trailhead, after
                                > > spending a day going somewhere you don't really want to go, you can go
                                > > where you really wanted to go in the first place but was full. How does
                                > > that limit overcrowding at all? Plus there is a multitude of alternative
                                > > trailheads, so as long as you spend one night away from the JMT, you can
                                > > hike the whole JMT. It's practically unlimited. I don't get how that makes
                                > > sense. Have you had anyone not be able to get a JMT permit using some sort
                                > > of alternative trailhead? With all the limitations on Half Dome in the
                                > > recent years, I'm just worried something like that will happen for the JMT
                                > > too and make it harder for people who try to do the right thing.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > John,
                                > > >
                                > > > Good points. The way I look at it is I see these things happening:
                                > > >
                                > > > 1. Yosemite goes out of the way on their JMT page:
                                > > > http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/jmt.htm
                                > > > to state
                                > > >
                                > > > *John Muir Trail*
                                > >
                                > > > If you plan to hike the John Muir Trail as a continuous hike, you only
                                > > need
                                > > > one wilderness permit
                                > > > for
                                > > > the entire trip (you do not need a "Whitney stamp"). Most people begin
                                > > the
                                > > > hike at Happy Isles (its traditional start in Yosemite Valley), however
                                > > > many people begin at Lyell Canyon (Tuolumne Meadows) because permits for
                                > > > this trailhead are slightly easier to obtain. There is no special JMT
                                > > > permit.
                                > > >
                                > > > 2. Abiding literally by the above does not seem like that akin to going
                                > > > through thousands of pages of tax law to find a loophole. It seems to me
                                > > > when people get these less popular permits to do the JMT, they're just
                                > > > following the above paragraph to the "T". It seems to me that those in
                                > > the
                                > > > Park Service who say "yea but normally hikers do it via routes a,b,c" are
                                > > > not talking based upon any published rule but rather traditional pattern
                                > > > recognition of how permits were done.
                                > > >
                                > > > 3. Some of the backcountry rangers I've talked to on the JMT tell me that
                                > > > they're job security is dependent upon having adequate hikers do remote
                                > > > backcountry long distance hikes and they're all for seeing people on the
                                > > > JMT. I have not met one backcountry ranger who is irked by JMT hikers who
                                > > > are doing the JMT via non-traditional entry TH permits.
                                > > >
                                > > > 4. As for your comment about half-dome hikers and the JMT, I wonder if
                                > > > that is not already happening, for the number of JMT permits seems to be
                                > > > far higher than those who complete the JMT. I know we've had this
                                > > > discussion before so I will grant you that the JMT seems to be getting
                                > > more
                                > > > popular, but that has to be very recent in light of conversations I've
                                > > had
                                > > > with backcountry rangers only 2-3 years ago about usage on the JMT. Back
                                > > > then, (a few years ago), rangers were complaining about the lack of
                                > > > backpackers now versus 20-30 years ago.
                                > > >
                                > > > Roleigh
                                > > >
                                > > > -------------------------------------------------
                                > > > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
                                > > > links)
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • ravi_jmt2013
                                ... I agree. Presumably Yosemite could implement a more restrictive system like Grand Canyon or Smoky Mountains but such a step has not been considered
                                Message 17 of 27 , Feb 13, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Anyway, the Yosemite National Park has complete control over their own
                                  > rules and on the content of what is put on their JMT page.
                                  >

                                  I agree. Presumably Yosemite could implement a more restrictive system like Grand Canyon or Smoky Mountains but such a step has not been considered necessary. Personally, I'm glad that there is no requirement for sticking to nightly camping locations after the first night since this provides more spontaneity during the trip. The only way they could really "crack down" is to limit the number of overnight campers for specific regions rather than specify trailhead quotas. Imagine the stress that would cause!
                                • gkahn21
                                  Roleigh, Sorry, the name s Grant. Obviously we don t see eye to eye on this matter, so I think we ll have to agree to disagree as the saying goes. I still feel
                                  Message 18 of 27 , Feb 14, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Roleigh,

                                    Sorry, the name's Grant. Obviously we don't see eye to eye on this matter, so I think we'll have to agree to disagree as the saying goes.

                                    I still feel using the alternative trailheads is gaming the system, or whatever you want to call it. It just doesn't feel right to me. It doesn't make sense to me that a system supposedly designed to restrict use allows me to circumvent it by simply hiking out of my way and then backtrack to my original area that was supposedly full. It seems to be too good to be true and we shouldn't be intentionally exploiting it.

                                    One final point I want to make is that just because the park hasn't acted yet it doesn't mean they will not in the future. That's what I am afraid of and why I'm trying to make this point. I, like Ravi mentioned as well, love the freedom of the current system and don't want it to go. Not sure why Yosemite hasn't changed something if they believe it is a problem, but we all know how slow government works.

                                    Well I probably sound like a broken record now so I'll stop. Doesn't seem like anyone will change their behavior based on what I say anyhow. Just don't say I didn't warn you if the permit system ever changes in the future.


                                    --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin wrote:
                                    >
                                    > GK (I don't know your first name),
                                    >
                                    > Respectfully, I have never read of any ethical admonition that says "one
                                    > can not think out of the box" which is what the alternative Trailhead
                                    > Permit strategy represents. I see nothing unethical about it at all.
                                    >
                                    > Are those people who can solve this puzzle unethical? It's a great puzzle
                                    > I came across in high school.
                                    >
                                    > http://mathforum.org/k12/k12puzzles/join.dots.html
                                    >
                                    > One has to think outside the box to solve it.
                                    >
                                    > Anyway, the Yosemite National Park has complete control over their own
                                    > rules and on the content of what is put on their JMT page.
                                    >
                                    > I think what we are hearing are the individual opinions of some people who
                                    > work at Yosemite who dislike the rules in place and wish there were fewer
                                    > people doing the JMT. I happen to think that some of these people happen
                                    > to work in the wilderness permit office. I had my Mono Meadow permit
                                    > request rejected last year but when I called up and talked to a ranger, I
                                    > was able to get that rejected permit accepted. I just pointed out that the
                                    > quota for that trail had not been consumed and that I was abiding by the
                                    > rules on the JMT page and he agreed and let me have the permit.
                                    >
                                    > I do not think ethics requires JMT board members here to respect the
                                    > unofficial wishes of all who work in the wilderness permit office but
                                    > ethics does require that we are polite, attentive to the rules, and be
                                    > honest in our communications, and when we are on the trail, to abide by the
                                    > rules for the trail.
                                    >
                                    > As for the trails being crowded. I have not felt or experienced a problem
                                    > myself on the trail. I suspect the head of Yosemite would be pleased if
                                    > the quota system was fully utilized by hikers, despite how many miles they
                                    > really want to hike once they get the permit, for then I would suspect that
                                    > the budget for Yosemite could justifiably be maintained or increased for
                                    > the next year.
                                    >
                                    > Roleigh
                                    > -------------------------------------------------
                                    > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
                                    > links)
                                    > _
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 12:50 PM, gkahn21 wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > **
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > 1 & 2.
                                    > >
                                    > > I don't think they go out of their way to state using other trailheads at
                                    > > all. They only list two trailheads, making it seem that those are the only
                                    > > two ones, and don't mention other trailheads as a possibility. In my mind,
                                    > > if they were to go out of their way to endorse using other trailheads, they
                                    > > would simply state that.
                                    > >
                                    > > A loophole is the same regardless if it is fairly obvious or buried as you
                                    > > say in thousands of pages of tax law. It's still a loophole. And yes,
                                    > > loopholes are legal, but that doesn't make them ethical or something that
                                    > > should be done.
                                    > >
                                    > > 3. We have heard plenty of stories about rangers being irked by JMT hikers
                                    > > using non-traditional trailheads, so your experience might be different.
                                    > > You might have encountered one but they just didn't say anything about it.
                                    > > Plus, I doubt that a backcountry ranger in sequoia knows the intricacies of
                                    > > the different trailheads in Yosemite and wouldn't know the difference
                                    > > between traditional and non-traditional trailheads.
                                    > >
                                    > > I agree that the rangers would want more hikers in the backcountry but
                                    > > only to a point. I bet they wouldn't want unlimited hikers or too many
                                    > > hikers and still would want limits on the number of hikers entering an area.
                                    > >
                                    > > This alternative trailhead thing seems very odd to me. The whole purpose
                                    > > of a trailhead quota system is to limit the amount of people in a certain
                                    > > area so that there is not overuse. But with an alternative trailhead, after
                                    > > spending a day going somewhere you don't really want to go, you can go
                                    > > where you really wanted to go in the first place but was full. How does
                                    > > that limit overcrowding at all? Plus there is a multitude of alternative
                                    > > trailheads, so as long as you spend one night away from the JMT, you can
                                    > > hike the whole JMT. It's practically unlimited. I don't get how that makes
                                    > > sense. Have you had anyone not be able to get a JMT permit using some sort
                                    > > of alternative trailhead? With all the limitations on Half Dome in the
                                    > > recent years, I'm just worried something like that will happen for the JMT
                                    > > too and make it harder for people who try to do the right thing.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > John,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Good points. The way I look at it is I see these things happening:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > 1. Yosemite goes out of the way on their JMT page:
                                    > > > http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/jmt.htm
                                    > > > to state
                                    > > >
                                    > > > *John Muir Trail*
                                    > >
                                    > > > If you plan to hike the John Muir Trail as a continuous hike, you only
                                    > > need
                                    > > > one wilderness permit
                                    > > > for
                                    > > > the entire trip (you do not need a "Whitney stamp"). Most people begin
                                    > > the
                                    > > > hike at Happy Isles (its traditional start in Yosemite Valley), however
                                    > > > many people begin at Lyell Canyon (Tuolumne Meadows) because permits for
                                    > > > this trailhead are slightly easier to obtain. There is no special JMT
                                    > > > permit.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > 2. Abiding literally by the above does not seem like that akin to going
                                    > > > through thousands of pages of tax law to find a loophole. It seems to me
                                    > > > when people get these less popular permits to do the JMT, they're just
                                    > > > following the above paragraph to the "T". It seems to me that those in
                                    > > the
                                    > > > Park Service who say "yea but normally hikers do it via routes a,b,c" are
                                    > > > not talking based upon any published rule but rather traditional pattern
                                    > > > recognition of how permits were done.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > 3. Some of the backcountry rangers I've talked to on the JMT tell me that
                                    > > > they're job security is dependent upon having adequate hikers do remote
                                    > > > backcountry long distance hikes and they're all for seeing people on the
                                    > > > JMT. I have not met one backcountry ranger who is irked by JMT hikers who
                                    > > > are doing the JMT via non-traditional entry TH permits.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > 4. As for your comment about half-dome hikers and the JMT, I wonder if
                                    > > > that is not already happening, for the number of JMT permits seems to be
                                    > > > far higher than those who complete the JMT. I know we've had this
                                    > > > discussion before so I will grant you that the JMT seems to be getting
                                    > > more
                                    > > > popular, but that has to be very recent in light of conversations I've
                                    > > had
                                    > > > with backcountry rangers only 2-3 years ago about usage on the JMT. Back
                                    > > > then, (a few years ago), rangers were complaining about the lack of
                                    > > > backpackers now versus 20-30 years ago.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Roleigh
                                    > > >
                                    > > > -------------------------------------------------
                                    > > > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
                                    > > > links)
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Roleigh Martin
                                    Thanks Grant, I think we ve both made our points fully. No need for a counterpoint on me here. Great thread. ... Visit my Google Profile (lots of very
                                    Message 19 of 27 , Feb 14, 2013
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                                      Thanks Grant, I think we've both made our points fully.  No need for a counterpoint on me here.  Great thread.
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                                    • John
                                      ... John, I agree with you but just wondering why you only think Rafferty Creek is a loophole while Happy Isles- Illilouette isn t, or Glacier
                                      Message 20 of 27 , Feb 17, 2013
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                                        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, gkahn21 <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > John,
                                        > I agree with you but just wondering why you only think Rafferty Creek is a loophole while Happy Isles->Illilouette isn't, or Glacier Point->Illilouette too. To me it seems almost an identical situation. 
                                        Sorry to rev this thread up and then disappear into the backcountry for a week. 

                                        I can't really comment on the Illilouette options as I'm not really familiar as to what people are proposing there.  I have hiked the Panorama trail only once.

                                        Too me, the Park service has been kind enough to split the quota for Lyell Fork and Rafferty in two, even though it is the same TH and same trail for four miles.  To me, this is a concession for those hikers wanting to hike into the Cathedral Range and not have to compete with hikers going up the Lyell Fk/JMT. 

                                        Starting at a truly different TH to access the JMT is really just a shorter/different trip (ie. starting at TM rather than HI etc.). Knowing the wilderness staff at Yosemite, I know they are keenly aware of these "alternate" starts and they are concerned with the impacts to other users as well as increased impacts on the ground. It will not surprise me in the least if they quit issuing "thru" permits from alternate starts in the future. This is unfortunate for those that actually wish to start their through hikes at those locations.

                                        JD
                                        Walk the Sky

                                      • John
                                        ... Again I apologize for the tardy response, but I was away from all (controlled) electrons for a while. Following the above statement to a T as I read it,
                                        Message 21 of 27 , Feb 17, 2013
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                                          --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > John,
                                          >
                                          > Good points. The way I look at it is I see these things happening:
                                          >
                                          > 1. Yosemite goes out of the way on their JMT page:
                                          > http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/jmt.htm
                                          > to state
                                          >
                                          > *John Muir Trail*
                                          > If you plan to hike the John Muir Trail as a continuous hike, you only need
                                          > one wilderness permit<http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/wildpermits.htm>
                                          > for
                                          > the entire trip (you do not need a "Whitney stamp"). Most people begin the
                                          > hike at Happy Isles (its traditional start in Yosemite Valley), however
                                          > many people begin at Lyell Canyon (Tuolumne Meadows) because permits for
                                          > this trailhead are slightly easier to obtain. There is no special JMT
                                          > permit.
                                          >
                                          > 2. Abiding literally by the above does not seem like that akin to going
                                          > through thousands of pages of tax law to find a loophole. It seems to me
                                          > when people get these less popular permits to do the JMT, they're just
                                          > following the above paragraph to the "T". It seems to me that those in the
                                          > Park Service who say "yea but normally hikers do it via routes a,b,c" are
                                          > not talking based upon any published rule but rather traditional pattern
                                          > recognition of how permits were done.

                                          Again I apologize for the tardy response, but I was away from all (controlled) electrons for a while.

                                          Following the above statement to "a T" as I read it, would be starting at TM rather than HI. Both are JMT THs. No where do I read "if you can't get a JMT start, apply to any other TH that might loop around, out and back, or some other way get you on the JMT".
                                          >
                                          > 3. Some of the backcountry rangers I've talked to on the JMT tell me that
                                          > they're job security is dependent upon having adequate hikers do remote
                                          > backcountry long distance hikes and they're all for seeing people on the
                                          > JMT. I have not met one backcountry ranger who is irked by JMT hikers who
                                          > are doing the JMT via non-traditional entry TH permits.

                                          To this I can only say hmmm? Ranger positions are subject to visitation, but not dependent on "long distance hikers". It's simply based on user nights. As well, most bc rangers won't be "irked" by entry points, but management is (see previous post).
                                          >
                                          > 4. As for your comment about half-dome hikers and the JMT, I wonder if
                                          > that is not already happening, for the number of JMT permits seems to be
                                          > far higher than those who complete the JMT. I know we've had this
                                          > discussion before so I will grant you that the JMT seems to be getting more
                                          > popular, but that has to be very recent in light of conversations I've had
                                          > with backcountry rangers only 2-3 years ago about usage on the JMT. Back
                                          > then, (a few years ago), rangers were complaining about the lack of
                                          > backpackers now versus 20-30 years ago.

                                          Exactly my point; Half Dome hikers snagging JMT permits is akin to JMTers snagging Rafferty Creek permits.

                                          Quote from Rob Pilewski Crabtree Ranger for 15 plus years- late August 2012 "JMT use this summer is through the roof!" This coming after similar conversations with Rob over the last several years. Being at Crabtree, Rob gets to see the vast majority of JMTers from ALL starts.

                                          As far as less users in general: from TM Wilderness office Supervisor- in 2011, Yosemite wrote more wilderness permits in that short season than any prior- last year they wrote more!

                                          Again, this is not to sound negative or discouraging. I'm just trying to paint the big picture so that people can make appropriate, educated, decisions.

                                          John


                                          >
                                          > Roleigh
                                          >
                                          > -------------------------------------------------
                                          > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
                                          > links)<https://profiles.google.com/104440166440169700478/about>
                                          >
                                        • John
                                          ... And if the puzzle adversely affects people or place? John
                                          Message 22 of 27 , Feb 17, 2013
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                                            --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...> wrote:

                                            > Are those people who can solve this puzzle unethical?

                                            >
                                            And if the puzzle adversely affects people or place?

                                            John
                                          • Roleigh Martin
                                            John, just a note to state I m not ignoring your last couple of posts. I just think I ve made every point worth making and I think you have too. The audience
                                            Message 23 of 27 , Feb 19, 2013
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                                              John, just a note to state I'm not ignoring your last couple of posts.  I just think I've made every point worth making and I think you have too.  The audience can make up their own minds about this.  I do think much of the thinking outside of the box has been necessitated by the Half-Domers eating up traditional JMT permit reservations causing JMTers to resort to more creative means.  I will admit since the JMT has become more popular that it was bound to happen anyway.  I do not think my documenting the options is the sole reason people are doing this. Anyone who studied the rules and the trailhead entry options would have to come to the same conclusion I came too.  It was so obvious.  I think much more obvious than how to connect 9 dots with 4 straight lines. I doubt if more than a single handful of reservations ever go for the Rafferty Creek TH option, as most JMTers want to start near Happy Isles.

                                              We do know that one JMTer has gone for the Rafferty Creek TH option, because it happened today!

                                              Roleigh
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                                              On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 2:33 PM, John <johndittli@...> wrote:
                                               



                                              --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin wrote:

                                              > Are those people who can solve this puzzle unethical?

                                              >
                                              And if the puzzle adversely affects people or place?

                                              John


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