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I am very early in the thought process--how many days for the trail?

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  • tamirph
    Hello, I turned 40 this year and one thing on my list of things to do for my 40th birthday was a thru hike on the trail. I am trying to determine if I can get
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 30, 2013
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      Hello, I turned 40 this year and one thing on my list of things to do for my 40th birthday was a thru hike on the trail. I am trying to determine if I can get enough time off of work. I can not take 30 days...can possibly get 3 weeks off with a few extra days on the ends. Is it worth it or better to put it off until we have more time?

      We push hard when backpacking to maximize distances--pretty focused when the packs are on our backs. We enjoy lunch breaks for scenery--get the packs off, put our feet up. We did a 6 night/7 day Glacier backpack and covered over 80 miles...and that was limited by our hiking partner on that trip. We don't fish and zero days are taken to hike side trails

      Just thought I would ask! Thanks for all the help!
      Tami
    • alanjrich007
      Tami, pace on the JMT is an individual thing, and varies quite a bit – it depends on your conditioning and the weight of your pack. Did you climb a lot of
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 30, 2013
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        Tami, pace on the JMT is an individual thing, and varies quite a bit – it depends on your conditioning and the weight of your pack.  Did you climb a lot of passes on the Glacier trip that you're comparing?

        I completed the JMT with my nephew this last July in 14 days.  This pace seemed a little fast, and we would have liked to have another two or three days for the trip.  My base pack weight (not counting food or water) was 11.6 pounds, including canister.  At 67, I don't think I could have maintained this pace if I had a traditional heavy pack!

        I found that my pace on the JMT was a little slower than what I'm used to in Colorado.  I think the rocky tread and the large stone steps on portions of the JMT are part of the explanation...

        Alan

        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "tamirph" wrote:
        >
        > Hello, I turned 40 this year and one thing on my list of things to do for my 40th birthday was a thru hike on the trail. I am trying to determine if I can get enough time off of work. I can not take 30 days...can possibly get 3 weeks off with a few extra days on the ends. Is it worth it or better to put it off until we have more time?
        >
        > We push hard when backpacking to maximize distances--pretty focused when the packs are on our backs. We enjoy lunch breaks for scenery--get the packs off, put our feet up. We did a 6 night/7 day Glacier backpack and covered over 80 miles...and that was limited by our hiking partner on that trip. We don't fish and zero days are taken to hike side trails
        >
        > Just thought I would ask! Thanks for all the help!
        > Tami
        >
      • Ray Rippel
        Good evening, Tami, I m going to be horribly guilty of over-generalizing here, so let me admit that up front and get it out of the way. I think the John Muir
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 30, 2013
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          Good evening, Tami,

          I'm going to be horribly guilty of over-generalizing here, so let me admit that up front and get it out of the way.

          I think the John Muir Trail is built for a three week hike, including a rest day or two. If you take a look at the profile, particularly in the last half, certain natural stopping points stand out. Even in the first half, where (in order to acclimate to the elevation) you should try to sleep below 10,000 feet for as long as possible, the daily legs fall out almost perfectly.

          In one of the appendices in my book I list three itineraries. I was surprised how hard it was to do the 12- and 25-day schedule. It felt like I was driving square pegs into round holes. The 20-day trip (including rest days at Red's Meadow and Muir Trail Ranch) just fell onto the page as naturally as you would want.

          Having said that, 20-day trip is a horrible idea if you can't do the miles. But, judging by what you wrote, above, it seems to be very doable. Remember, the hiker that leaves Muir Trail Ranch is NOT going to be the hiker that left Happy Isles. Don't let those last five passes intimidate you--by the time you see the Muir Hut you'll be a lean, mean hiking machine!

          Ray Rippel

          Author, Planning Your Thru-Hike of the John Muir Trail
          Look for Ray Rippel on Google+

        • wcgornto
          Happy Isles to Whitney Portal is about 220 miles. For a fifteen day hike, it comes out to a fifteen mile per day average. For a 22 day hike, it comes out to
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 31, 2013
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            Happy Isles to Whitney Portal is about 220 miles. For a fifteen day hike, it comes out to a fifteen mile per day average. For a 22 day hike, it comes out to a ten mile per day average. Either way, add another day or two to either end for transit to and from the trail.

            If you take leisurely lunch breaks and zero days for side hikes, the three week schedule might fit your style better. As for me, I begin on June 30 and finish on July 14, but I do not take any long breaks during the day and I plan no zeroes.
          • Spencer Goodwine
            It s difficult to predict how any other person will do on the trail, but the way wcgornto calculated the mileage was pretty much my approach to deciding total
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 31, 2013
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              It's difficult to predict how any other person will do on the trail, but the way wcgornto calculated the mileage was pretty much my approach to deciding total time it would take. And once I got hiking I found my calculations to a bit conservative...after I got my hiking legs, I wanted to hike a couple more miles a day than my original hiking plan and that hiking in late afternoon was my favorite time of the day. So, If you think you can handle 10 miles a day and 2000-3000 feet of elevation gain, then you can do it in 3 weeks - It sounds as if you've already completed that kind of mileage at glacier,  just imagine your glacier trip X 3.
              On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 7:46 AM, wcgornto <wcgornto@...> wrote:
               


              Happy Isles to Whitney Portal is about 220 miles. For a fifteen day hike, it comes out to a fifteen mile per day average. For a 22 day hike, it comes out to a ten mile per day average. Either way, add another day or two to either end for transit to and from the trail.

              If you take leisurely lunch breaks and zero days for side hikes, the three week schedule might fit your style better. As for me, I begin on June 30 and finish on July 14, but I do not take any long breaks during the day and I plan no zeroes.


            • staehpj1
              First, this is not the voice of experience since I have yet to do the JMT. Most of my long trips have been bicycle tours including a couple coast to coast
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 31, 2013
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                First, this is not the voice of experience since I have yet to do the JMT. Most of my long trips have been bicycle tours including a couple coast to coast ones, so my experience is pretty different. So weigh that in when deciding how serious to take my suggestions.

                It looks to me as if I want to do the MTR to the southern terminus part fairly quickly because I don't want to carry too many days of food.
                So my plan is to figure on a 15 day pace, but allow an extra three to five days that I might or might not use on the first part of the trip. I plan to do long-ish miles for that last section.

                A flexible schedule is a wonderful thing in my experience. It is nice to be able to do a 25 mile day or a zero day on a whim.
              • Robert
                Based on your previous pace in Glacier, you were about 13.3 miles per day. Based on that, you are looking at about a 16- 17 day hike, which is a very
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 31, 2013
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                  Based on your previous pace in Glacier, you were about 13.3 miles per day. Based on that, you are looking at about a 16- 17 day hike, which is a very reasonable amount of time to enjoy the JMT. Mileage is very personal and what I consider enjoyable in going for longer mile days, doesn't fit for others. Being your first time on the JMT, I say take the 16-17 days and enjoy it!!!
                  --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "tamirph" wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello, I turned 40 this year and one thing on my list of things to do for my 40th birthday was a thru hike on the trail. I am trying to determine if I can get enough time off of work. I can not take 30 days...can possibly get 3 weeks off with a few extra days on the ends. Is it worth it or better to put it off until we have more time?
                  >
                  > We push hard when backpacking to maximize distances--pretty focused when the packs are on our backs. We enjoy lunch breaks for scenery--get the packs off, put our feet up. We did a 6 night/7 day Glacier backpack and covered over 80 miles...and that was limited by our hiking partner on that trip. We don't fish and zero days are taken to hike side trails
                  >
                  > Just thought I would ask! Thanks for all the help!
                  > Tami
                  >
                • Allen Currano
                  3 weeks should be more than enough.
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 31, 2013
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                    3 weeks should be more than enough.

                  • judithsmcguire
                    For my 60th birthday I hike the JMT Glacier Point to Lone Pine. I did it in just under 3 weeks with no complete zero days but short days into Mammoth
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 31, 2013
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                      For my 60th birthday I hike the JMT Glacier Point to Lone Pine. I did it in just under 3 weeks with no complete zero days but short days into Mammoth (returned to JMT over Duck Pass), MTR (where we arrived in early afternoon and spent the night) and I walked out over Kearsarge Pass, thumbed into town, and spent the afternoon and night in Independence. Took the bus the next day after I got to Lone Pine to Reno and flew back home (East Coast).

                      Judy McGuire

                      --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "tamirph" wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello, I turned 40 this year and one thing on my list of things to do for my 40th birthday was a thru hike on the trail. I am trying to determine if I can get enough time off of work. I can not take 30 days...can possibly get 3 weeks off with a few extra days on the ends. Is it worth it or better to put it off until we have more time?
                      >
                      > We push hard when backpacking to maximize distances--pretty focused when the packs are on our backs. We enjoy lunch breaks for scenery--get the packs off, put our feet up. We did a 6 night/7 day Glacier backpack and covered over 80 miles...and that was limited by our hiking partner on that trip. We don't fish and zero days are taken to hike side trails
                      >
                      > Just thought I would ask! Thanks for all the help!
                      > Tami
                      >
                    • scriv.ener
                      Piece of cake, Tami. Plan on 18 days. That s 222 miles at about 15 miles a day, maybe less, with a layover at MTR or VVR. Couple of extra days to stash the
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 31, 2013
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                        Piece of cake, Tami. Plan on 18 days. That's 222 miles at about 15 miles a day, maybe less, with a layover at MTR or VVR.

                        Couple of extra days to stash the car at Whitney Portal and high-tail it back to Yosemite Valley.

                        Be sure to include a day at the end for the necessary binge on fats and carbs. Oh, yes, and beer, or does that count as a carb?

                        Of course it's worth it. Especially if the beer is cold.

                        ~Jeffrey



                        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "tamirph" wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello, I ... can possibly get 3 weeks off with a few extra days on the ends. ...
                        >
                      • frankedselsmith
                        Hey,I completed the JMT in 2011 from HI to Lone Pine in 18 days at age 64. I did not leave the trail except a night at VVR. If I could do this at that age you
                        Message 11 of 18 , Feb 1, 2013
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                          Hey,I completed the JMT in 2011 from HI to Lone Pine in 18 days at age 64. I did not leave the trail except a night at VVR. If I could do this at that age you should have no trouble! If I do it again I would have only two resupply points: Reds Meadow and MTR and would start at either TM (skipping the trek from HI to TM)or at Whitney portal. I must confess the 100 miles from MTR to Whitney was tough because I had just enough food--I ended with nothing!If you resupply between MTR and Whitney take the extra days and enjoy!!!

                          --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "judithsmcguire" wrote:
                          >
                          > For my 60th birthday I hike the JMT Glacier Point to Lone Pine. I did it in just under 3 weeks with no complete zero days but short days into Mammoth (returned to JMT over Duck Pass), MTR (where we arrived in early afternoon and spent the night) and I walked out over Kearsarge Pass, thumbed into town, and spent the afternoon and night in Independence. Took the bus the next day after I got to Lone Pine to Reno and flew back home (East Coast).
                          >
                          > Judy McGuire
                          >
                          > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "tamirph" wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hello, I turned 40 this year and one thing on my list of things to do for my 40th birthday was a thru hike on the trail. I am trying to determine if I can get enough time off of work. I can not take 30 days...can possibly get 3 weeks off with a few extra days on the ends. Is it worth it or better to put it off until we have more time?
                          > >
                          > > We push hard when backpacking to maximize distances--pretty focused when the packs are on our backs. We enjoy lunch breaks for scenery--get the packs off, put our feet up. We did a 6 night/7 day Glacier backpack and covered over 80 miles...and that was limited by our hiking partner on that trip. We don't fish and zero days are taken to hike side trails
                          > >
                          > > Just thought I would ask! Thanks for all the help!
                          > > Tami
                          > >
                          >
                        • Larry Beck
                          I would suggest getting friends to hike over Kearsarge Pass to Chalotte Lake to bring you a resupply. That would cut the long, tough section that Frank is
                          Message 12 of 18 , Feb 1, 2013
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                            I would suggest getting friends to hike over Kearsarge Pass to Chalotte Lake to bring you a resupply. That would cut the long, tough section that Frank is talking about in half.
                             
                            Larry



                            From: frankedselsmith <jglascoc@...>
                            To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Fri, February 1, 2013 7:09:22 AM
                            Subject: [John Muir Trail] Re: I am very early in the thought process--how many days for the trail?

                             

                            Hey,I completed the JMT in 2011 from HI to Lone Pine in 18 days at age 64. I did not leave the trail except a night at VVR. If I could do this at that age you should have no trouble! If I do it again I would have only two resupply points: Reds Meadow and MTR and would start at either TM (skipping the trek from HI to TM)or at Whitney portal. I must confess the 100 miles from MTR to Whitney was tough because I had just enough food--I ended with nothing!If you resupply between MTR and Whitney take the extra days and enjoy!!!

                            --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "judithsmcguire" wrote:
                            >
                            > For my 60th birthday I hike the JMT Glacier Point to Lone Pine. I did it in just under 3 weeks with no complete zero days but short days into Mammoth (returned to JMT over Duck Pass), MTR (where we arrived in early afternoon and spent the night) and I walked out over Kearsarge Pass, thumbed into town, and spent the afternoon and night in Independence. Took the bus the next day after I got to Lone Pine to Reno and flew back home (East Coast).
                            >
                            > Judy McGuire
                            >
                            > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "tamirph" wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hello, I turned 40 this year and one thing on my list of things to do for my 40th birthday was a thru hike on the trail. I am trying to determine if I can get enough time off of work. I can not take 30 days...can possibly get 3 weeks off with a few extra days on the ends. Is it worth it or better to put it off until we have more time?
                            > >
                            > > We push hard when backpacking to maximize distances--pretty focused when the packs are on our backs. We enjoy lunch breaks for scenery--get the packs off, put our feet up. We did a 6 night/7 day Glacier backpack and covered over 80 miles...and that was limited by our hiking partner on that trip. We don't fish and zero days are taken to hike side trails
                            > >
                            > > Just thought I would ask! Thanks for all the help!
                            > > Tami
                            > >
                            >

                          • scriv.ener
                            Larry, It sounds to me like Frank did it right! I consider it perfect planning if as I m trekking the last mile to my car I m tucking into my pocket the
                            Message 13 of 18 , Feb 1, 2013
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                              Larry,

                              It sounds to me like Frank did it right! I consider it perfect planning if as I'm trekking the last mile to my car I'm tucking into my pocket the wrapper from the last snack bar. I think you're S'POZED to end up with nothing! It's like carrying water to water, makes no sense.

                              Seriously, though, there have been discussions here in the recent past about hiring a wrangler to do a dunnage drop near the ranger station, and others have suggested asking friends to rendez-vous (anybody know how good the fishing is at Charlotte?).

                              If one considers it ten days from VVR to WP, at a pound-and-a-half a day, that's 15 pounds leaving Lake Edison. With a base weight in the 15-pound area, it means a pack of 30 pounds or so - but only for a few days, and by the time one reaches VVR 30# isn't a problem anyway.

                              --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Larry Beck wrote:
                              >
                              > I would suggest getting friends to hike over Kearsarge Pass
                              > to Chalotte Lake to bring you a resupply.
                              > That would cut the long, tough section that Frank is
                              > talking about in half.
                              > Larry
                              >
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              > From: frankedselsmith
                              > To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Fri, February 1, 2013 7:09:22 AM
                              > Subject: [John Muir Trail] Re: I am very early in the
                              > thought process--how many days for the trail?
                              >
                              >
                              > Hey,I completed the JMT in 2011 from HI to Lone Pine in 18
                              > days at age 64. ... If I could do this at that age you
                              > should have no trouble! ... I must confess the 100 miles
                              > from MTR to Whitney was tough because I had
                              > just enough food--I ended with nothing! ...
                            • Robert
                              Charlotte Lake is pretty fished out from my experience the last couple times. Caught a lot of very small fish. On the other hand Rae Lakes, Areowhead Lake, and
                              Message 14 of 18 , Feb 1, 2013
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                                Charlotte Lake is pretty fished out from my experience the last couple times. Caught a lot of very small fish. On the other hand Rae Lakes, Areowhead Lake, and Dollar Lake have some great fishing! I have caught, ( and released ), a lot of Goldens in Dollar Lake...pretty fish!
                                --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "scriv.ener" wrote:
                                >
                                > Larry,
                                >
                                > It sounds to me like Frank did it right! I consider it perfect planning if as I'm trekking the last mile to my car I'm tucking into my pocket the wrapper from the last snack bar. I think you're S'POZED to end up with nothing! It's like carrying water to water, makes no sense.
                                >
                                > Seriously, though, there have been discussions here in the recent past about hiring a wrangler to do a dunnage drop near the ranger station, and others have suggested asking friends to rendez-vous (anybody know how good the fishing is at Charlotte?).
                                >
                                > If one considers it ten days from VVR to WP, at a pound-and-a-half a day, that's 15 pounds leaving Lake Edison. With a base weight in the 15-pound area, it means a pack of 30 pounds or so - but only for a few days, and by the time one reaches VVR 30# isn't a problem anyway.
                                >
                                > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Larry Beck wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I would suggest getting friends to hike over Kearsarge Pass
                                > > to Chalotte Lake to bring you a resupply.
                                > > That would cut the long, tough section that Frank is
                                > > talking about in half.
                                > > Larry
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ________________________________
                                > > From: frankedselsmith
                                > > To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Sent: Fri, February 1, 2013 7:09:22 AM
                                > > Subject: [John Muir Trail] Re: I am very early in the
                                > > thought process--how many days for the trail?
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Hey,I completed the JMT in 2011 from HI to Lone Pine in 18
                                > > days at age 64. ... If I could do this at that age you
                                > > should have no trouble! ... I must confess the 100 miles
                                > > from MTR to Whitney was tough because I had
                                > > just enough food--I ended with nothing! ...
                                >
                              • robert shattuck
                                I have caught, ( and released ), a lot of Goldens in Dollar Lake...pretty fish! Yes, to Dollar Lake . . . I don t fish* (but if I see you have a pole, I
                                Message 15 of 18 , Feb 1, 2013
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                                  "I have caught, ( and released ), a lot of Goldens in Dollar Lake...pretty fish! " 

                                  Yes, to Dollar Lake . . . I don't fish* (but if I see you have a pole, I seem to show up whenever you sit down to fry 'em up) but at Dollar, you can sit there on the trail and dangle your line in . . . there are a lot of fish and they really like trader joe's dried mango. 



                                  *but I have tried the grasshoppers on the Bighorn Plateau

                                  BOB
                                  http://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480




                                  To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                                  From: rnperky@...
                                  Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 01:22:29 +0000
                                  Subject: [John Muir Trail] Re: I am very early in the thought process--how many days for the trail?

                                   

                                  Charlotte Lake is pretty fished out from my experience the last couple times. Caught a lot of very small fish. On the other hand Rae Lakes, Areowhead Lake, and Dollar Lake have some great fishing! I have caught, ( and released ), a lot of Goldens in Dollar Lake...pretty fish!
                                  --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "scriv.ener" wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Larry,
                                  >
                                  > It sounds to me like Frank did it right! I consider it perfect planning if as I'm trekking the last mile to my car I'm tucking into my pocket the wrapper from the last snack bar. I think you're S'POZED to end up with nothing! It's like carrying water to water, makes no sense.
                                  >
                                  > Seriously, though, there have been discussions here in the recent past about hiring a wrangler to do a dunnage drop near the ranger station, and others have suggested asking friends to rendez-vous (anybody know how good the fishing is at Charlotte?).
                                  >
                                  > If one considers it ten days from VVR to WP, at a pound-and-a-half a day, that's 15 pounds leaving Lake Edison. With a base weight in the 15-pound area, it means a pack of 30 pounds or so - but only for a few days, and by the time one reaches VVR 30# isn't a problem anyway.
                                  >
                                  > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Larry Beck wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I would suggest getting friends to hike over Kearsarge Pass
                                  > > to Chalotte Lake to bring you a resupply.
                                  > > That would cut the long, tough section that Frank is
                                  > > talking about in half.
                                  > > Larry
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ________________________________
                                  > > From: frankedselsmith
                                  > > To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Sent: Fri, February 1, 2013 7:09:22 AM
                                  > > Subject: [John Muir Trail] Re: I am very early in the
                                  > > thought process--how many days for the trail?
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Hey,I completed the JMT in 2011 from HI to Lone Pine in 18
                                  > > days at age 64. ... If I could do this at that age you
                                  > > should have no trouble! ... I must confess the 100 miles
                                  > > from MTR to Whitney was tough because I had
                                  > > just enough food--I ended with nothing! ...
                                  >


                                • Ray Rippel
                                  Speaking of fishing in the Sierra Nevada, I thought I read somewhere that some government agency (NPS, BLM, another one?) was incrementally killing off all the
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Feb 1, 2013
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                                    Speaking of fishing in the Sierra Nevada, I thought I read somewhere that some government agency (NPS, BLM, another one?) was incrementally killing off all the trout in the lakes with the goal to eliminate the "invasive" species. Anyone else heard of that?

                                    Now that I've typed that on the page, it looks pretty ridiculous. Probably a non-urban legend.
                                  • tamirph
                                    Thank you for all of the replies! I am even more excited now. I am hoping to start over Labor Day weekend if I can get the time off of work and the permit!
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Feb 1, 2013
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                                      Thank you for all of the replies! I am even more excited now. I am hoping to start over Labor Day weekend if I can get the time off of work and the permit! I can take the week before Labor Day and the 3 weeks after Labor Day off but as of right now they have blacked out the Tuesday after Labor Day...

                                      --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "tamirph" wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hello, I turned 40 this year and one thing on my list of things to do for my 40th birthday was a thru hike on the trail. I am trying to determine if I can get enough time off of work. I can not take 30 days...can possibly get 3 weeks off with a few extra days on the ends. Is it worth it or better to put it off until we have more time?
                                      >
                                      > We push hard when backpacking to maximize distances--pretty focused when the packs are on our backs. We enjoy lunch breaks for scenery--get the packs off, put our feet up. We did a 6 night/7 day Glacier backpack and covered over 80 miles...and that was limited by our hiking partner on that trip. We don't fish and zero days are taken to hike side trails
                                      >
                                      > Just thought I would ask! Thanks for all the help!
                                      > Tami
                                      >
                                    • Don
                                      Not a legend at all Ray, much to the chagrin of fishermen (and women). http://www.nps.gov/seki/naturescience/mountain-yellow-legged-frogs.htm High Sierra Topix
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Feb 2, 2013
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                                        Not a legend at all Ray, much to the chagrin of fishermen (and women).

                                        http://www.nps.gov/seki/naturescience/mountain-yellow-legged-frogs.htm

                                        High Sierra Topix forum has a list of specific fisheries that are fishless due to the seining.
                                        _________________________

                                        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Ray Rippel wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Speaking of fishing in the Sierra Nevada, I thought I read somewhere that
                                        > some government agency (NPS, BLM, another one?) was incrementally killing
                                        > off all the trout in the lakes with the goal to eliminate the "invasive"
                                        > species. Anyone else heard of that?
                                        >
                                        > Now that I've typed that on the page, it looks pretty ridiculous. Probably
                                        > a non-urban legend.
                                        >
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