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Re: [John Muir Trail] Winter tent

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  • John Ladd
    I like the Black Diamond Firstlight (nominal 2-person, 4-season, single wall shelter). It is very stable in the wind. Used by one person, there s enough room
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 2, 2012
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      I like the Black Diamond Firstlight (nominal 2-person, 4-season, single wall shelter). It is very stable in the wind. Used by one person, there's enough room that you could sit out a storm without too much discomfort.  I think you would want something bigger if you were actually travelling with two.


      A little under 3 lbs.  I don't use the optional vestibule.

      I tried a hooped bivy (like Black Diamong Tripod bivy) but it was just too small for winter and it would be really hard to use for waiting out a storm (always a possibility).  And the small size prevents the sleeping bag from lofting up as much as it should.

      Not what you asked, but I strongly recommend Ned Tibbits' "Snow Course". The Basic course will teach you a lot. I've taken it twice.


      Call me if you want to talk about winter shelters.  I haven't a lot of experience, but I have some and it's in the Sierra winter. Mostly Desolation Wilderness and Yosemite backcountry (out of Badger Pass)



      John Curran Ladd
      1616 Castro Street
      San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
      415-648-9279


      On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 7:54 PM, Bill <b.cathey@...> wrote:
       

      I'm thinking of trying out some winter camping this year. Does anyone have any recommendations on winter tents? Along with the Sierras and Yosemite, I'd eventually like to do some camping in locations such as Yellowstone, Grand Tetons, and the N. Rim of the Grand Canyon, if that makes a difference when selecting a tent.

      I see that REI has one of their 20% off for members sales coming up, so I'd like to take advantage of it, if possible.

      Thanks for any info.

      bill


    • Ned Tibbits
      Thanks, John! Ned Tibbits, Director Mountain Education www.mountaineducation.org From: John Ladd Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 9:29 PM To:
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 2, 2012
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        Thanks, John!
         
         
        Ned Tibbits, Director
        Mountain Education
        www.mountaineducation.org
         
        From: John Ladd
        Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 9:29 PM
        Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Winter tent
         
         

        I like the Black Diamond Firstlight (nominal 2-person, 4-season, single wall shelter). It is very stable in the wind. Used by one person, there's enough room that you could sit out a storm without too much discomfort.  I think you would want something bigger if you were actually travelling with two.

         
         
        A little under 3 lbs.  I don't use the optional vestibule.
         
        I tried a hooped bivy (like Black Diamong Tripod bivy) but it was just too small for winter and it would be really hard to use for waiting out a storm (always a possibility).  And the small size prevents the sleeping bag from lofting up as much as it should.
         
        Not what you asked, but I strongly recommend Ned Tibbits' "Snow Course". The Basic course will teach you a lot. I've taken it twice.
         
         
        Call me if you want to talk about winter shelters.  I haven't a lot of experience, but I have some and it's in the Sierra winter. Mostly Desolation Wilderness and Yosemite backcountry (out of Badger Pass)
         
         
         
        John Curran Ladd
        1616 Castro Street
        San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
        415-648-9279


        On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 7:54 PM, Bill <b.cathey@...> wrote:
         

        I'm thinking of trying out some winter camping this year. Does anyone have any recommendations on winter tents? Along with the Sierras and Yosemite, I'd eventually like to do some camping in locations such as Yellowstone, Grand Tetons, and the N. Rim of the Grand Canyon, if that makes a difference when selecting a tent.

        I see that REI has one of their 20% off for members sales coming up, so I'd like to take advantage of it, if possible.

        Thanks for any info.

        bill

         
      • Ralph Alcorn
        We got a Stephenson s Warmlite 2R specifically for use in Torres del Paine in Patagonia. It is a pricy but light double walled tent, about 3 pounds. Uses 3
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 3, 2012
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          We got a Stephenson's Warmlite 2R specifically for use in Torres del Paine in Patagonia. It is a pricy but light double walled tent, about 3 pounds. Uses 3 stakes. Condensation is minimal. It was summer there, but use of a tarp would be foolhardy. We saw one person attempting to use a tarp, and they abandoned their trip after the first night. We also used that tent while finishing the PCT in Washington. Several days we setup and woke up in snow conditions and the tent performed well. We also have done some snow camping, and that was the first time we saw a Warmlite in use.

          We use a tarp sometimes during the summer, but I would never consider using one in the winter. A full fledged winter snowstorm with driving winds would be life threatening. Actually I have to qualify that. Take a tarp, and a snow shovel. Dig a trench, use the tarp and your poles as a cover, held down by additional snow, and sleep in your bivy. That I'll approve of.
          --
          Ralph Alcorn
          http://www.backpack45.com/camino2.html
          http://timecheck00.blogspot.com
          Shepherd Canyon books, Publisher of
          We're in the Mountains, Not Over the Hill: Tales and Tips from Seasoned Women Backpackers (also in Kindle), and
          Camino Chronicle: Walking to Santiago (also in Kindle)


        • Kim Fishburn
          I d hardly say the use of a tarp is foolhardy. You just need to know how to use it, and the people that use them in northern Minnesota that do use them know
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 3, 2012
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            I'd hardly say the use of a tarp is foolhardy. You just need to know how to use it, and the people that use them in northern Minnesota that do use them know how, and they don't hesitate to go out when temps are minus 20 and lower. You'd probably be better off with a larger rectangular tarp that you can use in a variety of ways. The pyramid style shelters are probably the most preferred. You can tie them off to a tree overhead, or use a hiking pole. You can dig out a sleeping area below it. Of course there are people here that go out with a canvas tent and a wood stove.

            I also have a Stepenson Warmlite 3R. Very strong tent and will take a lot of wind if staked out good. The straps that go around the tent stakes go back into the tent through buckles so you can tighten the tent when the fabric stretches. I was at Voglesang HS once when it was really windy. All the good campsites were taken so I had to sleep in an exposed area. I was the only person that got any sleep that night. I remember a comment in the catalog from an owner using one at Pt Reyes National Seashore. They complained about the noise from all the other nearby tents keep them up at night in the wind. When you see pictures of people camped on top of Mt McKinley you'll often see Warmlite tents there. The downside is the price, and that they are so big. My Warmlite 3 was 12 feet long. I often had a problem in summer finding a place big enough to set it up. The upside is the low weight. My Warmlite 3R is about 4 lbs, and could sleep 4 in a pinch.

            Kim

            From: Ralph Alcorn <rbalcorn@...>
            To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 9:08 AM
            Subject: [John Muir Trail] Re: Winter tent

             
            We got a Stephenson's Warmlite 2R specifically for use in Torres del Paine in Patagonia. It is a pricy but light double walled tent, about 3 pounds. Uses 3 stakes. Condensation is minimal. It was summer there, but use of a tarp would be foolhardy. We saw one person attempting to use a tarp, and they abandoned their trip after the first night. We also used that tent while finishing the PCT in Washington. Several days we setup and woke up in snow conditions and the tent performed well. We also have done some snow camping, and that was the first time we saw a Warmlite in use.

            We use a tarp sometimes during the summer, but I would never consider using one in the winter. A full fledged winter snowstorm with driving winds would be life threatening. Actually I have to qualify that. Take a tarp, and a snow shovel. Dig a trench, use the tarp and your poles as a cover, held down by additional snow, and sleep in your bivy. That I'll approve of.
            --
            Ralph Alcorn
            http://www.backpack45.com/camino2.html
            http://timecheck00.blogspot.com
            Shepherd Canyon books, Publisher of
            We're in the Mountains, Not Over the Hill: Tales and Tips from Seasoned Women Backpackers (also in Kindle), and
            Camino Chronicle: Walking to Santiago (also in Kindle)


            _

          • John Ladd
            ... and they don t hesitate to go out when temps are minus 20 and lower. When choosing a winter tent for the Sierra, I wouldn t suggest thinking a lot about
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 3, 2012
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              On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 8:01 AM, Kim Fishburn <outhiking_55@...> wrote:
              >
              > The people that use them in northern Minnesota that do use them know how, and they don't hesitate to go out when temps are minus 20 and lower.

              When choosing a winter tent for the Sierra, I wouldn't suggest thinking a lot about temperatures.  We're not all that cold (usually) and a shelter doesn't help all that much anyway (other than a full-on snow cave).

              I would think of a shelter which I can picture myself spending a major part of 2 days inside.  We can have sudden storms where it is dangerous to hike in the storm: the whiteout will make navigation impossible and you are likely to end up somewhere dangerous if you try to move. And often the day after a storm, you won't be able to move in a useful direction because the avalanche danger is much higher in the day after a new snowfall and you will need to wait for the slopes to consolidate before moving.

              Also, winter nights are long and you, esp. if going solo, will probably spend more time in the tent per day than you would in the summer, even in the absence of a storm.

              I agree with Kim that a  shelter that doesn't flap in the wind is a huge plus.

              One more thought. A snow trench is probably a skill to develop in case of need. But they can be quite cold since cold air sinks. If you can orient the trench so that there is a place for air to escape downslope, it's a bit better. E.g., if you can cut the trench into a slope where one end of the trench has a downhill escape for the air.  And of course, you need to make sure that the trench (or the tarp cover) isn't going to collapse on you and bury you in snow. Sierra storms can add a foot of snow in an hour while you sleep. I'd keep something handy that will aid in breaking yourself free if the trench or roof collapses.

              Because of all this I'd suggest that a bench cut crosswise to a slope (where main night wind is blowing downslope) might worth considering in some circumstances if improvising a tarp cover. If the bench is deep enough with a high sidewall, you should still be able to rig the tarp to provide some protection overhead.  Cold air can exit on the downslope side of the bench and if your overhead collapses, you can exit out the side of the bench. (But I'd still suggest a sturdy single-wall 4-season tent over a tarp or pyramid tent)

            • Bill Cathey
              Thanks, Kim. That s something I ve considered for the future, when I have more experience. But, for now, I would probably feel more comfortable using a tent. I
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 3, 2012
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                Thanks, Kim. That's something I've considered for the future, when I have more experience. But, for now, I would probably feel more comfortable using a tent. I only started backpacking last year. If I take some type of course, I would like to have using tarps properly be part of the skills covered.

                bill

                On Oct 2, 2012, at 11:14 PM, Kim Fishburn <outhiking_55@...> wrote:

                 

                Some people here in Minnesota just use a tarp and bivy.



                From: Bill <b.cathey@...>
                To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 9:54 PM
                Subject: [John Muir Trail] Winter tent

                 
                I'm thinking of trying out some winter camping this year. Does anyone have any recommendations on winter tents? Along with the Sierras and Yosemite, I'd eventually like to do some camping in locations such as Yellowstone, Grand Tetons, and the N. Rim of the Grand Canyon, if that makes a difference when selecting a tent.

                I see that REI has one of their 20% off for members sales coming up, so I'd like to take advantage of it, if possible.

                Thanks for any info.

                bill



              • Bill Cathey
                Thanks, John. I ll research this tent online. 3 pounds seems kind of light. Aren t winter tents usually quite a bit heavier? Maybe they re generally
                Message 7 of 26 , Oct 3, 2012
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                  Thanks, John. I'll research this tent online. 3 pounds seems kind of light. Aren't winter tents usually quite a bit heavier? Maybe they're generally double-wall tents instead of single-wall? Or, maybe they tend to be made sturdier to handle snow loads? Would this tent be more fragile under storm conditions compared to other models?

                  And thanks for the recommend on Ned's course. I have been considering it, although I would have to fly across country to take it. I would just want to make sure there's enough of a winter before making a commitment like that. Especially after this past "winter".

                  bill

                  On Oct 3, 2012, at 12:29 AM, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:

                   

                  I like the Black Diamond Firstlight (nominal 2-person, 4-season, single wall shelter). It is very stable in the wind. Used by one person, there's enough room that you could sit out a storm without too much discomfort.  I think you would want something bigger if you were actually travelling with two.



                  A little under 3 lbs.  I don't use the optional vestibule.

                  I tried a hooped bivy (like Black Diamong Tripod bivy) but it was just too small for winter and it would be really hard to use for waiting out a storm (always a possibility).  And the small size prevents the sleeping bag from lofting up as much as it should.

                  Not what you asked, but I strongly recommend Ned Tibbits' "Snow Course". The Basic course will teach you a lot. I've taken it twice.


                  Call me if you want to talk about winter shelters.  I haven't a lot of experience, but I have some and it's in the Sierra winter. Mostly Desolation Wilderness and Yosemite backcountry (out of Badger Pass)



                  John Curran Ladd
                  1616 Castro Street
                  San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                  415-648-9279


                  On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 7:54 PM, Bill <b.cathey@...> wrote:
                   

                  I'm thinking of trying out some winter camping this year. Does anyone have any recommendations on winter tents? Along with the Sierras and Yosemite, I'd eventually like to do some camping in locations such as Yellowstone, Grand Tetons, and the N. Rim of the Grand Canyon, if that makes a difference when selecting a tent.

                  I see that REI has one of their 20% off for members sales coming up, so I'd like to take advantage of it, if possible.

                  Thanks for any info.

                  bill


                • Bill Heiser
                  Bill, you might want to also check out the Gear Selection forum and the gear reviews on Trailspace.com . There was also a
                  Message 8 of 26 , Oct 3, 2012
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                    Bill,  you might want to also check out the Gear Selection forum and the gear reviews on Trailspace.com.

                    There was also a discussion recently about the "tarp vs tent (in winter)" issue/question:  http://www.trailspace.com/forums/beginners/topics/133506.html

                    I'm not affiliated with the site, just a regular user.  You'll find lots of good info there & lots of people willing to help.

                    -Bill

                    October 2, 2012 7:54 PM
                     

                    I'm thinking of trying out some winter camping this year. Does anyone have any recommendations on winter tents? Along with the Sierras and Yosemite, I'd eventually like to do some camping in locations such as Yellowstone, Grand Tetons, and the N. Rim of the Grand Canyon, if that makes a difference when selecting a tent.

                    I see that REI has one of their 20% off for members sales coming up, so I'd like to take advantage of it, if possible.

                    Thanks for any info.

                    bill

                • John
                  Here s another tent you see frequently in 4-season settings: http://m.rei.com/mt/www.rei.com/product/830117/mountain-hardwear-ev-2-tent. Very expensive
                  Message 9 of 26 , Oct 3, 2012
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                    Here's another tent you see frequently in 4-season settings:

                    http://m.rei.com/mt/www.rei.com/product/830117/mountain-hardwear-ev-2-tent

                    Very expensive however!

                    John

                    On Oct 3, 2012, at 9:47 AM, Bill Cathey <b.cathey@...> wrote:

                     

                    Thanks, John. I'll research this tent online. 3 pounds seems kind of light. Aren't winter tents usually quite a bit heavier? Maybe they're generally double-wall tents instead of single-wall? Or, maybe they tend to be made sturdier to handle snow loads? Would this tent be more fragile under storm conditions compared to other models?

                    And thanks for the recommend on Ned's course. I have been considering it, although I would have to fly across country to take it. I would just want to make sure there's enough of a winter before making a commitment like that. Especially after this past "winter".

                    bill

                    On Oct 3, 2012, at 12:29 AM, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:

                     

                    I like the Black Diamond Firstlight (nominal 2-person, 4-season, single wall shelter). It is very stable in the wind. Used by one person, there's enough room that you could sit out a storm without too much discomfort.  I think you would want something bigger if you were actually travelling with two.



                    A little under 3 lbs.  I don't use the optional vestibule.

                    I tried a hooped bivy (like Black Diamong Tripod bivy) but it was just too small for winter and it would be really hard to use for waiting out a storm (always a possibility).  And the small size prevents the sleeping bag from lofting up as much as it should.

                    Not what you asked, but I strongly recommend Ned Tibbits' "Snow Course". The Basic course will teach you a lot. I've taken it twice.


                    Call me if you want to talk about winter shelters.  I haven't a lot of experience, but I have some and it's in the Sierra winter. Mostly Desolation Wilderness and Yosemite backcountry (out of Badger Pass)



                    John Curran Ladd
                    1616 Castro Street
                    San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                    415-648-9279


                    On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 7:54 PM, Bill <b.cathey@...> wrote:
                     

                    I'm thinking of trying out some winter camping this year. Does anyone have any recommendations on winter tents? Along with the Sierras and Yosemite, I'd eventually like to do some camping in locations such as Yellowstone, Grand Tetons, and the N. Rim of the Grand Canyon, if that makes a difference when selecting a tent.

                    I see that REI has one of their 20% off for members sales coming up, so I'd like to take advantage of it, if possible.

                    Thanks for any info.

                    bill


                  • John Ladd
                    ... Usual reasons for double-wall tents is to have a bug-protection layer without compromising ability to see the night skies, and you obviously don t need
                    Message 10 of 26 , Oct 3, 2012
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                      On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 9:47 AM, Bill Cathey <b.cathey@...> wrote:
                       

                      Thanks, John. I'll research this tent online. 3 pounds seems kind of light. Aren't winter tents usually quite a bit heavier? Maybe they're generally double-wall tents instead of single-wall? Or, maybe they tend to be made sturdier to handle snow loads? Would this tent be more fragile under storm conditions compared to other models?

                      Usual reasons for double-wall tents is to have a bug-protection layer without compromising ability to see the night skies, and you obviously don't need that. Or to handle heavy wind-driven rain, again usually not an issue. Or to prevent condensation, and I find that any condensation on a single wall in winter is usually just a layer of frost on the inside of the tent that I can remove by giving the tent a good shake-out if I remember to do it before it starts to get warm or the sun hits it.  I don't know that double wall tents are necessarily stronger than single walls, since they both rely on the poles and the outer skin layer for strength and a single wall has that.  I don't know that the inner layer of a double wall adds to its strength much.

                      if you google image search  with this

                      tent OR shelter Everest

                      Most of the tents you will see are single wall, though of course quite sturdy single-walls with poles that are on the outside of the one wall (Firstlight poles are inside the one wall).  I'm not suggesting, BTW, that the FirstLight is an Everest-capable shelter, but it illustrates the point that strong tents do not necessarily have a double-wall design.  

                      I'd leave yourself open to the idea that a single-wall tent can be OK for winter if it is represented by a reputable manufacturer as 4-season capable. (Firstlight is so rated and I find BD reputable)

                      With modern materials, a single wall tent can be quite strong and still light.

                      However, the Bibler line of tents (now sold by Black Diamond) are famously strong. The I-tent, for example, is similar to the one I have liked (same square footage and footprint) but presumably sturdier if you are willing to carry a bit more weight (about another 1.5 lbs)


                      The additional sturdiness also might make it quieter in the wind.  

                      My FirstLight did survive a night of quite strong wind on a crest above Echo Lake in Desolation Wilderness when we secured the tiedowns well, but was noisy.  Any comments, Karpani? (I was in a snow cave on this very windy night and Karpani was in my tent.)

                      It probably is a good idea to occasionally give any tent a good shake to lighten the snow loading, esp. in a wet snow. It's easy to do this with the steep-walled Firstlight since the snow sheds easily with a moment's shake from the inside.

                      John Curran Ladd
                      1616 Castro Street
                      San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                      415-648-9279



                    • Kim Fishburn
                      If you have the money I still recommend the Stephenson. Its lightweight, and great at shedding wind. My only real complaint about the tent is the Aluminized
                      Message 11 of 26 , Oct 3, 2012
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                        If you have the money I still recommend the Stephenson. Its lightweight, and great at shedding wind. My only real complaint about the tent is the Aluminized Liner. You won't want to be in the tent once the sun hits it and it warms up. It does however prevent much condensation from forming, if any.

                        http://www.terragalleria.com/parks/np-image.dena11632.html
                        http://www.terragalleria.com/mountain/info/ice/mk2.html

                        The guy that has this website was featured at the end of Ken Burns documentary on the National Parks. If I remember right Ken found this guys website and used it as a reference for locations for filming.


                        From: Bill Cathey <b.cathey@...>
                        To: "johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com" <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:18 AM
                        Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Winter tent

                         
                        Thanks, Kim. That's something I've considered for the future, when I have more experience. But, for now, I would probably feel more comfortable using a tent. I only started backpacking last year. If I take some type of course, I would like to have using tarps properly be part of the skills covered.

                        bill

                        On Oct 2, 2012, at 11:14 PM, Kim Fishburn <outhiking_55@...> wrote:

                         
                        Some people here in Minnesota just use a tarp and bivy.



                        From: Bill <b.cathey@...>
                        To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 9:54 PM
                        Subject: [John Muir Trail] Winter tent

                         
                        I'm thinking of trying out some winter camping this year. Does anyone have any recommendations on winter tents? Along with the Sierras and Yosemite, I'd eventually like to do some camping in locations such as Yellowstone, Grand Tetons, and the N. Rim of the Grand Canyon, if that makes a difference when selecting a tent.

                        I see that REI has one of their 20% off for members sales coming up, so I'd like to take advantage of it, if possible.

                        Thanks for any info.

                        bill





                      • Ned Tibbits
                        Ok, let’s wade into this one... Over the last 30 years of teaching snow camping and winter travel techniques, we have seen pretty much all the different
                        Message 12 of 26 , Oct 4, 2012
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                          Ok, let’s wade into this one...
                           
                          Over the last 30 years of teaching snow camping and winter travel techniques, we have seen pretty much all the different styles and designs of shelters used on snow in good and bad weather (to include wind alone) by our students. Tested many of those tents for ourselves. Based on that...
                           
                          The “winter” environment is not friendly nor kind to the human body because of the “cold and wet” issue. Maintaining your “internal environment” (between clothing and skin) as warm and dry is your first concern, always. So, when the outside environment gets nasty and you’re exhausted from wallowing through a foot or two of powder, the use of a tent can be life saving just when you need it!
                           
                          A winter tent provides real-time Safety. It gets you out of the wind, the wet, and the cold, all of which strive to steal your heat and threaten your life. Once started, hypothermia is no joke and must be arrested at once. It is not just the issue of frequent storms, but also any circumstance where you get wet in ambient cold, whether from the inside (going too fast or hard and getting sweaty) or the outside (fall in a creek, tumble in the snow, snow cave collapse, snow on your sleeping bag getting you wet, trying to travel in a snow storm/shower, etc.). As we teach our students, it is not worth it to try to continue struggling through the miles over/in snow just to get wet and exhausted when you could be conserving energy and staying warm by resting inside a nice, warm tent. Continue on when the snow conditions allow it (both those that are falling and those that are on the “ground.”) No need to risk an avalanche!
                           
                          And don’t forget, Spring (when the sun is up longer melting the pack and less fresh powder is accumulating) snow has settled into a more compact, cohesive (though stratified), and for the most part stable mass that is “usually” free of avalanche danger (a few conditions, here) and easier to walk on (not through as in winter and the need for snowshoes). Spring in the Sierra might be from Easter through thaw (with regard to snow issues) and its on-snow conditions could be said to include warm, longer days with hot sunshine, suncups, below freezing nights (until the thaw starts when nighttime temps hover at freezing or above), hard morning snow surfaces “good” for walking on, slippery slopes (up, down, and across) that make you happy you brought your Kahtoolas and boots, water everywhere, raging creeks, mud below snowline, sun and retina burns, and a lesser risk of hypothermia/exposure. This is the safest time to be out on snow enjoying the “winter wonderland” that snow creates! “Winter,” in contrast, means short days, long nights, “workable” cold, loose, powder snow, storm systems and winds, and greater risks of hypothermia and exposure. Winter is a different animal than Spring, especially at 11,000 in the Sierra (wouldn’t you agree, Mr. Dittli?)
                           
                          It is safe to insist, Stay out of the high sierra and off all its steep slopes while it is still receiving feet of new snow. This could be from mid-November to mid-April. Even  experienced and trained rescuers will fly rather than ski or snowshoe in to locate the hasty foolish.
                           
                          Now, simply put, a tent provides protection from the external environment and comfort within an internal environment. Overall size of the tent is dictated by how much room you need to accomplish your daily-life’s activities like dressing, cooking, studying your maps, calling home, drying out wet clothing and gear, going to the bathroom in a blizzard, etc. while stuck inside for those longer winter hours or during periods of storms (these can last from less than a day to many days on end).
                           
                          Protection & comfort listed:
                          - Layers of fabric provide a little insulation (between fly and tent body) and, thus, hold in heat a bit (doesn’t last long, but is comforting while you’re moving around).
                          - Layers of fabric provide a barrier from the cold wind that is trying to take away your body heat.
                          - The waterproof layer away from the tent body allows condensation to build “out there” rather than on a wall you can touch (that will get you wet—never allow yourself to get wet in the winter environment!).
                          - Almost-to-the-ground Fly sheet blocks wind-driven rain and snow from blowing up on the inner, non-waterproof ceiling of the tent getting it and you wet.
                          - Nylon inner-wall material (vs. mosquito netting in the summer tent) keeps some more wind out and heat in.
                          - Easy-to-set-up aluminum, shock-corded and lubricated pole systems that reach from the ground on one side to the ground on the other side keep the tent from collapsing under a two or three-foot over-night snow load (remember, “decent” snow storms can dump faster than an inch/hour! If you can’t see the tree in front of you because of heavy blowing snow, it is falling at least this fast).
                          - Enough poles crossing over the top of the tent making for smaller unsupported wall and roof fabric panels will support snow best.
                          - The smaller the unsupported fabric panels, the less “wind-flappage” (non-technical term).
                          - Wind flappage makes noise (that may keep you awake at night), contributes to tent anchors pulling out (causing more flappage and leading to tent collapse), causes seams to separate and allow moisture in, and makes for further tent fabric stretching (already happening when it is raining or snowing because nylon does this when wet) that will allow further tent roof compression under load. As the fly stretches and is loaded by snow, it probably will start touching the inner ceiling fabric. What this will subsequently cause is condensation to accumulate on both surfaces at the same time (especially when you are cooking inside with insufficient flow-through ventilation) and you may get water dripping on you from above or at least running down the walls (this is especially true of all single-wall tents in the cold).
                          - Doors at each end allow cooking in one vestibule while gear is stored in the other.
                          - Seamless tub floors keep moisture out that might ruin your sleeping bag. Durable floors endure issues of the floor freezing to the snow overnight when pulled up in the morning.
                          - Big zippers can be opened easier and tend not to freeze readily during storms.
                          - Multiple tie-outs help tremendously in the winds of snow storms and you sleep better knowing everything is tied down!
                           
                          What all this means is what you use in the summer will not provide the needed safety, security, and protection for winter/spring conditions. Under ideal winter conditions, you can get by with a 3-season shelter, but what I have described above is a 4-season tent. We have seen ponchos, capes, bivys, single-walls, 1-pole, 2-pole, and 2 and a half-pole shelters used in late winter with disastrous results. That is why we bring another 4-season tent for folks to bail into when theirs collapses in the middle of the night!
                           
                          Of course, you can dig snow caves. They work great! Nice and warm and cozy (conditions apply). But keep in mind, the well-constructed ones may take two or three people a few hours to dig and you tend to get pretty wet in the process.
                           
                          If you appreciated this info, let us know and we’ll add more practical stuff to help you with your planning. The high trails need not be avoided in the winter or spring. Just know what to expect and plan for safe passage!
                           
                           
                           
                          Ned Tibbits, Director
                          Mountain Education
                          www.mountaineducation.org
                           
                          Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 10:53 AM
                          Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Winter tent
                           
                           

                          If you have the money I still recommend the Stephenson. Its lightweight, and great at shedding wind. My only real complaint about the tent is the Aluminized Liner. You won't want to be in the tent once the sun hits it and it warms up. It does however prevent much condensation from forming, if any.

                          http://www.terragalleria.com/parks/np-image.dena11632.html
                          http://www.terragalleria.com/mountain/info/ice/mk2.html

                          The guy that has this website was featured at the end of Ken Burns documentary on the National Parks. If I remember right Ken found this guys website and used it as a reference for locations for filming.
                           

                          From: Bill Cathey <b.cathey@...>
                          To: "johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com" <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:18 AM
                          Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Winter tent
                           
                           
                          Thanks, Kim. That's something I've considered for the future, when I have more experience. But, for now, I would probably feel more comfortable using a tent. I only started backpacking last year. If I take some type of course, I would like to have using tarps properly be part of the skills covered.

                          bill

                          On Oct 2, 2012, at 11:14 PM, Kim Fishburn <outhiking_55@...> wrote:

                           
                          Some people here in Minnesota just use a tarp and bivy.

                           

                          From: Bill <b.cathey@...>
                          To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 9:54 PM
                          Subject: [John Muir Trail] Winter tent
                           
                           
                          I'm thinking of trying out some winter camping this year. Does anyone have any recommendations on winter tents? Along with the Sierras and Yosemite, I'd eventually like to do some camping in locations such as Yellowstone, Grand Tetons, and the N. Rim of the Grand Canyon, if that makes a difference when selecting a tent.

                          I see that REI has one of their 20% off for members sales coming up, so I'd like to take advantage of it, if possible.

                          Thanks for any info.

                          bill





                        • charliepolecat
                          Once started, hypothermia is no joke and must be arrested at once. It is not just the issue of frequent storms, but also any circumstance where you get wet in
                          Message 13 of 26 , Oct 4, 2012
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                            "Once started, hypothermia is no joke and must be arrested at once. It is not just the issue of frequent storms, but also any circumstance where you get wet in ambient cold, whether from the inside (going too fast or hard and getting sweaty"

                            Very true, Ned, and that applies to cycling in the winter. You ride hard, sweat, get cold, and soon you are shivering uncontrollably. Not fun at all. And, alas, there is no such fabric as breathable and waterproof.
                          • Ned Tibbits
                            Hi, Bill! Every year, starting a couple of weeks after the Kickoff, we begin teaching a series of 10-day, Advanced Snow Skills Courses along the PCT and JMT
                            Message 14 of 26 , Oct 5, 2012
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                              Hi, Bill!
                               
                              Every year, starting a couple of weeks after the Kickoff, we begin teaching a series of 10-day, Advanced Snow Skills Courses along the PCT and JMT from the southern Kennedy Meadows north. Typically, this is a great time to head into the high sierra as the pack is consolidated, still freezing at night so the snow is hard enough for walking in the mornings, and the snow bridges are still thick and intact so we don’t have to worry about creek crossings.
                               
                              Usually, we are the first over Forester Pass and cut the trail across its south-facing chute for the thru hikers coming up behind us. We don’t remain ahead of them for long as their leading edge usually passes us (we don’t do more than 10 miles a day in that steep terrain) somewhere between Forester and Mather! Keep in mind that at this time of year (snowpack dependent), snow line is about 9500 feet, so everything above that is under snow. This translates to miles of snow on either side of every Pass (especially Muir Pass).
                               
                              The first 10-day stretch runs from Kennedy Meadows to Kearsarge Pass and out Onion Valley Trailhead. The first four or five days to Horseshoe Meadow resupply (when open) is perfect for getting the legs and body ready for the snow traverses to come. Once past Chicken Spring Lake, we get busy with teaching how to walk and self-arrest on snow and learn the skills of over-snow navigation (GPS and map/compass). At Forester, we teach the various ways to select safe routes, ascend, descend, and
                              traverse steep slopes, and learn when to turn around and go back. Though we teach Mountain Medicine, we sure don’t want to fly anyone out!
                               
                              At this time in the sierra (usually after Dittli has done his last winter snowpack survey for the DWR), the thaw can start anytime, the creeks begin to rise and roar in the canyons, and the local animals and flowers begin peeking out. Mud and water is everywhere below snowline, but the best conditions and views are up high in the snow. Suncups begin to grow larger as the days grow longer, but since the snow is still relatively hard for most of the day (postholing may not be an afternoon issue at all), they don’t become much of a pain like they will later in May and June when most of the PCT “herd” struggles through the sierra. The best elements of snow-hiking in May and June are no mosquitoes or bears and only a few people (with the exception of the thru hikers who “fly” by, endeavoring to cover as many miles per day that they can).
                               
                              One beautiful time of year to be out on the high passes, buddy!
                               
                              Ned Tibbits, Director
                              Mountain Education
                              www.mountaineducation.org
                               
                              Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 7:32 PM
                              Subject: [SPAM] Fwd: [John Muir Trail] Winter tent
                               
                              Thanks for the info, Ned. I'll keep it in mind while considering the various 4-season tents out there. It sounds like May might be a nice time to try some snow camping in the Sierras.

                              bill

                              Begin forwarded message:

                              From: "Ned Tibbits" <ned@...>
                              Date: October 4, 2012 12:36:18 PM PDT
                              To: <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com>, <pct-l@...>
                              Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Winter tent
                              Reply-To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com

                               
                              Ok, let’s wade into this one...
                               
                              Over the last 30 years of teaching snow camping and winter travel techniques, we have seen pretty much all the different styles and designs of shelters used on snow in good and bad weather (to include wind alone) by our students. Tested many of those tents for ourselves. Based on that...
                               
                              The “winter” environment is not friendly nor kind to the human body because of the “cold and wet” issue. Maintaining your “internal environment” (between clothing and skin) as warm and dry is your first concern, always. So, when the outside environment gets nasty and you’re exhausted from wallowing through a foot or two of powder, the use of a tent can be life saving just when you need it!
                               
                              A winter tent provides real-time Safety. It gets you out of the wind, the wet, and the cold, all of which strive to steal your heat and threaten your life. Once started, hypothermia is no joke and must be arrested at once. It is not just the issue of frequent storms, but also any circumstance where you get wet in ambient cold, whether from the inside (going too fast or hard and getting sweaty) or the outside (fall in a creek, tumble in the snow, snow cave collapse, snow on your sleeping bag getting you wet, trying to travel in a snow storm/shower, etc.). As we teach our students, it is not worth it to try to continue struggling through the miles over/in snow just to get wet and exhausted when you could be conserving energy and staying warm by resting inside a nice, warm tent. Continue on when the snow conditions allow it (both those that are falling and those that are on the “ground.”) No need to risk an avalanche!
                               
                              And don’t forget, Spring (when the sun is up longer melting the pack and less fresh powder is accumulating) snow has settled into a more compact, cohesive (though stratified), and for the most part stable mass that is “usually” free of avalanche danger (a few conditions, here) and easier to walk on (not through as in winter and the need for snowshoes). Spring in the Sierra might be from Easter through thaw (with regard to snow issues) and its on-snow conditions could be said to include warm, longer days with hot sunshine, suncups, below freezing nights (until the thaw starts when nighttime temps hover at freezing or above), hard morning snow surfaces “good” for walking on, slippery slopes (up, down, and across) that make you happy you brought your Kahtoolas and boots, water everywhere, raging creeks, mud below snowline, sun and retina burns, and a lesser risk of hypothermia/exposure. This is the safest time to be out on snow enjoying the “winter wonderland” that snow creates! “Winter,” in contrast, means short days, long nights, “workable” cold, loose, powder snow, storm systems and winds, and greater risks of hypothermia and exposure. Winter is a different animal than Spring, especially at 11,000 in the Sierra (wouldn’t you agree, Mr. Dittli?)
                               
                              It is safe to insist, Stay out of the high sierra and off all its steep slopes while it is still receiving feet of new snow. This could be from mid-November to mid-April. Even  experienced and trained rescuers will fly rather than ski or snowshoe in to locate the hasty foolish.
                               
                              Now, simply put, a tent provides protection from the external environment and comfort within an internal environment. Overall size of the tent is dictated by how much room you need to accomplish your daily-life’s activities like dressing, cooking, studying your maps, calling home, drying out wet clothing and gear, going to the bathroom in a blizzard, etc. while stuck inside for those longer winter hours or during periods of storms (these can last from less than a day to many days on end).
                               
                              Protection & comfort listed:
                              - Layers of fabric provide a little insulation (between fly and tent body) and, thus, hold in heat a bit (doesn’t last long, but is comforting while you’re moving around).
                              - Layers of fabric provide a barrier from the cold wind that is trying to take away your body heat.
                              - The waterproof layer away from the tent body allows condensation to build “out there” rather than on a wall you can touch (that will get you wet—never allow yourself to get wet in the winter environment!).
                              - Almost-to-the-ground Fly sheet blocks wind-driven rain and snow from blowing up on the inner, non-waterproof ceiling of the tent getting it and you wet.
                              - Nylon inner-wall material (vs. mosquito netting in the summer tent) keeps some more wind out and heat in.
                              - Easy-to-set-up aluminum, shock-corded and lubricated pole systems that reach from the ground on one side to the ground on the other side keep the tent from collapsing under a two or three-foot over-night snow load (remember, “decent” snow storms can dump faster than an inch/hour! If you can’t see the tree in front of you because of heavy blowing snow, it is falling at least this fast).
                              - Enough poles crossing over the top of the tent making for smaller unsupported wall and roof fabric panels will support snow best.
                              - The smaller the unsupported fabric panels, the less “wind-flappage” (non-technical term).
                              - Wind flappage makes noise (that may keep you awake at night), contributes to tent anchors pulling out (causing more flappage and leading to tent collapse), causes seams to separate and allow moisture in, and makes for further tent fabric stretching (already happening when it is raining or snowing because nylon does this when wet) that will allow further tent roof compression under load. As the fly stretches and is loaded by snow, it probably will start touching the inner ceiling fabric. What this will subsequently cause is condensation to accumulate on both surfaces at the same time (especially when you are cooking inside with insufficient flow-through ventilation) and you may get water dripping on you from above or at least running down the walls (this is especially true of all single-wall tents in the cold).
                              - Doors at each end allow cooking in one vestibule while gear is stored in the other.
                              - Seamless tub floors keep moisture out that might ruin your sleeping bag. Durable floors endure issues of the floor freezing to the snow overnight when pulled up in the morning.
                              - Big zippers can be opened easier and tend not to freeze readily during storms.
                              - Multiple tie-outs help tremendously in the winds of snow storms and you sleep better knowing everything is tied down!
                               
                              What all this means is what you use in the summer will not provide the needed safety, security, and protection for winter/spring conditions. Under ideal winter conditions, you can get by with a 3-season shelter, but what I have described above is a 4-season tent. We have seen ponchos, capes, bivys, single-walls, 1-pole, 2-pole, and 2 and a half-pole shelters used in late winter with disastrous results. That is why we bring another 4-season tent for folks to bail into when theirs collapses in the middle of the night!
                               
                              Of course, you can dig snow caves. They work great! Nice and warm and cozy (conditions apply). But keep in mind, the well-constructed ones may take two or three people a few hours to dig and you tend to get pretty wet in the process.
                               
                              If you appreciated this info, let us know and we’ll add more practical stuff to help you with your planning. The high trails need not be avoided in the winter or spring. Just know what to expect and plan for safe passage!
                               
                               
                               
                              Ned Tibbits, Director
                              Mountain Education
                              www.mountaineducation.org
                               
                              Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 10:53 AM
                              Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Winter tent
                               
                               
                              If you have the money I still recommend the Stephenson. Its lightweight, and great at shedding wind. My only real complaint about the tent is the Aluminized Liner. You won't want to be in the tent once the sun hits it and it warms up. It does however prevent much condensation from forming, if any.

                              http://www.terragalleria.com/parks/np-image.dena11632.html

                              The guy that has this website was featured at the end of Ken Burns documentary on the National Parks. If I remember right Ken found this guys website and used it as a reference for locations for filming.
                               

                              From: Bill Cathey <b.cathey@...>
                              To: "johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com" <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:18 AM
                              Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Winter tent
                               
                               
                              Thanks, Kim. That's something I've considered for the future, when I have more experience. But, for now, I would probably feel more comfortable using a tent. I only started backpacking last year. If I take some type of course, I would like to have using tarps properly be part of the skills covered.

                              bill

                              On Oct 2, 2012, at 11:14 PM, Kim Fishburn <outhiking_55@...> wrote:

                               
                              Some people here in Minnesota just use a tarp and bivy.

                               

                              From: Bill <b.cathey@...>
                              To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 9:54 PM
                              Subject: [John Muir Trail] Winter tent
                               
                               
                              I'm thinking of trying out some winter camping this year. Does anyone have any recommendations on winter tents? Along with the Sierras and Yosemite, I'd eventually like to do some camping in locations such as Yellowstone, Grand Tetons, and the N. Rim of the Grand Canyon, if that makes a difference when selecting a tent.

                              I see that REI has one of their 20% off for members sales coming up, so I'd like to take advantage of it, if possible.

                              Thanks for any info.

                              bill





                            • kneecreak
                              You response caught my eye. We are planning to hike the Circuit in TdP next March. Did you have any issues with the Warmlite? Did you have the long version
                              Message 15 of 26 , Oct 9, 2012
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                                You response caught my eye. We are planning to hike the Circuit in TdP next March. Did you have any issues with the Warmlite? Did you have the long version or the climber version?
                                Thanks.

                                --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Ralph Alcorn <rbalcorn@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > We got a Stephenson's Warmlite 2R specifically for use in Torres del Paine
                                > in Patagonia. It is a pricy but light double walled tent, about 3 pounds.
                                > Uses 3 stakes. Condensation is minimal. It was summer there, but use of a
                                > tarp would be foolhardy. We saw one person attempting to use a tarp, and
                                > they abandoned their trip after the first night. We also used that tent
                                > while finishing the PCT in Washington. Several days we setup and woke up in
                                > snow conditions and the tent performed well. We also have done some snow
                                > camping, and that was the first time we saw a Warmlite in use.
                                >
                                > We use a tarp sometimes during the summer, but I would never consider using
                                > one in the winter. A full fledged winter snowstorm with driving winds would
                                > be life threatening. Actually I have to qualify that. Take a tarp, and a
                                > snow shovel. Dig a trench, use the tarp and your poles as a cover, held
                                > down by additional snow, and sleep in your bivy. That I'll approve of.
                                > --
                                > Ralph Alcorn
                                > http://www.backpack45.com/camino2.html
                                > http://timecheck00.blogspot.com
                                > Shepherd Canyon books, Publisher of
                                > We're in the Mountains, Not Over the Hill: Tales and Tips from Seasoned
                                > Women Backpackers (also in Kindle), and
                                > Camino Chronicle: Walking to Santiago (also in Kindle)
                                >
                              • Ralph Alcorn
                                We did have one issue with the Warmlite. We have the long version. At the time we used in in Torres del Paine, we did not have wind stabilizers. (they are
                                Message 16 of 26 , Oct 11, 2012
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                                  We did have one issue with the Warmlite. We have the long version. At the time we used in in Torres del Paine, we did not have wind stabilizers. (they are standard in the climbers version). On the last night, we were in a large open area, and there was a very strong side wind. Everyone else had moved their tents into the  lee of a building for shelter, but I could still stand up, so knew the wind wasn't 95 mph, the rating of the tent when we bought it. About 5 minutes after we were in  the tent, the main pole snapped, and I had to move the tent jury rig a line to a tree from the broken pole to keep the tent up. When we got back, I looked at their website again. They were just putting up a new site, and on the new site, the tent was rated at 65 mph without stabilizers. Stephensons repaired the broken pole and hole it poked in the tent at no charge, and added wind stabilizers at my request for a modest charge. I'm quite pleased with the tent, but now I'm a little more cautious about pushing my gear to its limits. We will have a book out on Patagonia and TdP trails, recommendations, etc. probably by the end of the month. You could email me off list for more info.

                                  Ralph Alcorn
                                  http://www.backpack45.com/camino2.html
                                  http://timecheck00.blogspot.com
                                  Shepherd Canyon books, Publisher of
                                  We're in the Mountains, Not Over the Hill: Tales and Tips from Seasoned Women Backpackers (also in Kindle), and
                                  Camino Chronicle: Walking to Santiago (also in Kindle)


                                • Barbara Karagosian
                                  Looking forward to the book! Barbara
                                  Message 17 of 26 , Oct 11, 2012
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                                    Looking forward to the book!

                                    Barbara


                                    On Oct 11, 2012, at 10:49 AM, Ralph Alcorn <rbalcorn@...> wrote:

                                     

                                    We did have one issue with the Warmlite. We have the long version. At the time we used in in Torres del Paine, we did not have wind stabilizers. (they are standard in the climbers version). On the last night, we were in a large open area, and there was a very strong side wind. Everyone else had moved their tents into the  lee of a building for shelter, but I could still stand up, so knew the wind wasn't 95 mph, the rating of the tent when we bought it. About 5 minutes after we were in  the tent, the main pole snapped, and I had to move the tent jury rig a line to a tree from the broken pole to keep the tent up. When we got back, I looked at their website again. They were just putting up a new site, and on the new site, the tent was rated at 65 mph without stabilizers. Stephensons repaired the broken pole and hole it poked in the tent at no charge, and added wind stabilizers at my request for a modest charge. I'm quite pleased with the tent, but now I'm a little more cautious about pushing my gear to its limits. We will have a book out on Patagonia and TdP trails, recommendations, etc. probably by the end of the month. You could email me off list for more info.

                                    Ralph Alcorn
                                    http://www.backpack45.com/camino2.html
                                    http://timecheck00.blogspot.com
                                    Shepherd Canyon books, Publisher of
                                    We're in the Mountains, Not Over the Hill: Tales and Tips from Seasoned Women Backpackers (also in Kindle), and
                                    Camino Chronicle: Walking to Santiago (also in Kindle)


                                  • kneecreak
                                    I am interested in your book. When will it be available? And Where?
                                    Message 18 of 26 , Oct 14, 2012
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                                      I am interested in your book. When will it be available? And Where?

                                      --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Ralph Alcorn <rbalcorn@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > We did have one issue with the Warmlite. We have the long version. At the
                                      > time we used in in Torres del Paine, we did not have wind stabilizers.
                                      > (they are standard in the climbers version). On the last night, we were in
                                      > a large open area, and there was a very strong side wind. Everyone else had
                                      > moved their tents into the lee of a building for shelter, but I could
                                      > still stand up, so knew the wind wasn't 95 mph, the rating of the tent when
                                      > we bought it. About 5 minutes after we were in the tent, the main pole
                                      > snapped, and I had to move the tent jury rig a line to a tree from the
                                      > broken pole to keep the tent up. When we got back, I looked at their
                                      > website again. They were just putting up a new site, and on the new site,
                                      > the tent was rated at 65 mph without stabilizers. Stephensons repaired the
                                      > broken pole and hole it poked in the tent at no charge, and added wind
                                      > stabilizers at my request for a modest charge. I'm quite pleased with the
                                      > tent, but now I'm a little more cautious about pushing my gear to its
                                      > limits. We will have a book out on Patagonia and TdP trails,
                                      > recommendations, etc. probably by the end of the month. You could email me
                                      > off list for more info.
                                      > -
                                      > Ralph Alcorn
                                      > http://www.backpack45.com/camino2.html
                                      > http://timecheck00.blogspot.com
                                      > Shepherd Canyon books, Publisher of
                                      > We're in the Mountains, Not Over the Hill: Tales and Tips from Seasoned
                                      > Women Backpackers (also in Kindle), and
                                      > Camino Chronicle: Walking to Santiago (also in Kindle)
                                      >
                                    • speedcenter2001
                                      I have used several types of winter tents - from expedition style everest-tested to just a 4-season tarp. Weight versus protection and comfort tradeoffs need
                                      Message 19 of 26 , Oct 15, 2012
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                                        I have used several types of winter tents - from expedition style everest-tested to just a 4-season tarp. Weight versus protection and comfort tradeoffs need to be accounted for. For simple short term cold weather trips when moisture in the form of snow is the norm, I recommend to go light with something like the MSR Twin Sisters and a Tyvek footprint. Won't find either at REI, though, but neither will break the bank.  2 pounds plus your poles make a very solid tent, just no fun when it rains and water can creep under the tarp area.

                                        MSR Twin Sisters

                                        For more extreme trips, I use Mountain Hardwear EV2 or EV3 tents - brick shithouse at 5 or 8 pounds, depending on how large you need it to be. These tents set up from the outside (nothing gets wet inside while you put the poles through the hooks), they don't flap in the wind, and they breathe very well, avoiding condensation inside, which is the biggest issue in cold weather. Expensive tent unless you can score them on ebay like I did. Even at 20% off, be prepared for sticker shock. Good gear isn't cheap - this tent has been on the market for years now and the price just keeps going up.

                                        This is the EV3 below Whitney on the Mountaineer's Route on a cold April Fools Day morning - large enough for 3 but perfect for 2 occupants with a lot of gear:

                                        MHW EV3 below Whitney

                                         

                                         

                                         


                                        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <b.cathey@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I'm thinking of trying out some winter camping this year. Does anyone have any recommendations on winter tents? Along with the Sierras and Yosemite, I'd eventually like to do some camping in locations such as Yellowstone, Grand Tetons, and the N. Rim of the Grand Canyon, if that makes a difference when selecting a tent.
                                        >
                                        > I see that REI has one of their 20% off for members sales coming up, so I'd like to take advantage of it, if possible.
                                        >
                                        > Thanks for any info.
                                        >
                                        > bill
                                        >

                                      • speedcenter2001
                                        The Mountain Hardwear EV2 is bsolutely worth the money if your life depends on solid shelter in cold and windy places. Not sure of this was posted in this
                                        Message 20 of 26 , Oct 15, 2012
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                                          The Mountain Hardwear EV2 is bsolutely worth the money if your life depends on solid shelter in cold and windy places.

                                          Not sure of this was posted in this thread yet (I just came back from 2 weeks on Isle Royale), but this test is quite thorough and compares thirteen 4-season tents available these days:

                                          http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/4-Season-Tent-Reviews

                                          The Hilleberg Jannu is very interesting, however, I never found one under $700, while you can find barely used EV2 tents for half off list almost any day on ebay.



                                          --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, John <jmaddog1082@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Here's another tent you see frequently in 4-season settings:
                                          >
                                          > http://m.rei.com/mt/www.rei.com/product/830117/mountain-hardwear-ev-2-tent.
                                          >
                                          > Very expensive however!
                                          >
                                          > John
                                          >
                                          > On Oct 3, 2012, at 9:47 AM, Bill Cathey <b.cathey@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Thanks, John. I'll research this tent online. 3 pounds seems kind of light. Aren't winter tents usually quite a bit heavier? Maybe they're generally double-wall tents instead of single-wall? Or, maybe they tend to be made sturdier to handle snow loads? Would this tent be more fragile under storm conditions compared to other models?
                                          > >
                                          > > And thanks for the recommend on Ned's course. I have been considering it, although I would have to fly across country to take it. I would just want to make sure there's enough of a winter before making a commitment like that. Especially after this past "winter".
                                          > >
                                          > > bill
                                          > >
                                          > > On Oct 3, 2012, at 12:29 AM, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >>
                                          > >> I like the Black Diamond Firstlight (nominal 2-person, 4-season, single wall shelter). It is very stable in the wind. Used by one person, there's enough room that you could sit out a storm without too much discomfort. I think you would want something bigger if you were actually travelling with two.
                                          > >>
                                          > >>
                                          > >> http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/shop/mountain/shelters/firstlight-tent
                                          > >>
                                          > >> A little under 3 lbs. I don't use the optional vestibule.
                                          > >>
                                          > >> I tried a hooped bivy (like Black Diamong Tripod bivy) but it was just too small for winter and it would be really hard to use for waiting out a storm (always a possibility). And the small size prevents the sleeping bag from lofting up as much as it should.
                                          > >>
                                          > >> Not what you asked, but I strongly recommend Ned Tibbits' "Snow Course". The Basic course will teach you a lot. I've taken it twice.
                                          > >>
                                          > >> http://mountaineducation.org/mountain-education-pages/courses/
                                          > >>
                                          > >> Call me if you want to talk about winter shelters. I haven't a lot of experience, but I have some and it's in the Sierra winter. Mostly Desolation Wilderness and Yosemite backcountry (out of Badger Pass)
                                          > >>
                                          > >>
                                          > >>
                                          > >> John Curran Ladd
                                          > >> 1616 Castro Street
                                          > >> San Francisco, CA 94114-3707
                                          > >> 415-648-9279
                                          > >>
                                          > >>
                                          > >> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 7:54 PM, Bill <b.cathey@...> wrote:
                                          > >>
                                          > >> I'm thinking of trying out some winter camping this year. Does anyone have any recommendations on winter tents? Along with the Sierras and Yosemite, I'd eventually like to do some camping in locations such as Yellowstone, Grand Tetons, and the N. Rim of the Grand Canyon, if that makes a difference when selecting a tent.
                                          > >>
                                          > >> I see that REI has one of their 20% off for members sales coming up, so I'd like to take advantage of it, if possible.
                                          > >>
                                          > >> Thanks for any info.
                                          > >>
                                          > >> bill
                                          > >>
                                          > >>
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • Ned Tibbits
                                          Mountain Education was sponsored by Mountain Hardwear from their beginnings to when Columbia bought them out and everyone fled. We have used the EV-2
                                          Message 21 of 26 , Oct 15, 2012
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Mountain Education was sponsored by Mountain Hardwear from their beginnings to when Columbia bought them out and everyone fled. We have used the EV-2 extensively during most of out winter skills training courses and have found it to be pretty bomb-proof, as speedcenter said, great in the wind and very breathable as long as you don’t cook inside (if you do because it is storming outside and you are cold or wet, the condensation will be horrible compared to their Trango tents). However, it is light for a winter tent and compresses into a small, packable bundle.
                                             
                                            Snow camping is a blast and having a nice, warm, roomy, and bomb-proof shelter makes our day when we can snow-shoe or ski all day into a picturesque lake encouraged by the expectations of remaining warm and dry with hot chocolate in hand inside our tents while the storm dumps 2 or 3 feet of snow overnight!
                                             
                                             
                                            Ned Tibbits, Director
                                            Mountain Education
                                            www.mountaineducation.org
                                             
                                            Sent: Monday, October 15, 2012 10:32 AM
                                            Subject: [John Muir Trail] Re: Winter tent
                                             
                                             

                                            I have used several types of winter tents - from expedition style everest-tested to just a 4-season tarp. Weight versus protection and comfort tradeoffs need to be accounted for. For simple short term cold weather trips when moisture in the form of snow is the norm, I recommend to go light with something like the MSR Twin Sisters and a Tyvek footprint. Won't find either at REI, though, but neither will break the bank.  2 pounds plus your poles make a very solid tent, just no fun when it rains and water can creep under the tarp area.

                                            MSR Twin Sisters

                                            For more extreme trips, I use Mountain Hardwear EV2 or EV3 tents - brick shithouse at 5 or 8 pounds, depending on how large you need it to be. These tents set up from the outside (nothing gets wet inside while you put the poles through the hooks), they don't flap in the wind, and they breathe very well, avoiding condensation inside, which is the biggest issue in cold weather. Expensive tent unless you can score them on ebay like I did. Even at 20% off, be prepared for sticker shock. Good gear isn't cheap - this tent has been on the market for years now and the price just keeps going up.

                                            This is the EV3 below Whitney on the Mountaineer's Route on a cold April Fools Day morning - large enough for 3 but perfect for 2 occupants with a lot of gear:

                                            MHW EV3 below Whitney

                                             

                                             

                                             


                                            --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <b.cathey@...> wrote:

                                            >
                                            > I'm thinking of trying out some winter camping this year.
                                            Does anyone have any recommendations on winter tents? Along with the Sierras and Yosemite, I'd eventually like to do some camping in locations such as Yellowstone, Grand Tetons, and the N. Rim of the Grand Canyon, if that makes a difference when selecting a tent.
                                            >
                                            > I see that REI has one of
                                            their 20% off for members sales coming up, so I'd like to take advantage of it, if possible.
                                            >
                                            > Thanks for any info.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            bill
                                            >

                                          • Ralph Alcorn
                                            I tried to reply to kneecreek offline, but his email is not valid. Our Patagonia book should be out in a week or two on Amazon. Search there for Susan Alcorn.
                                            Message 22 of 26 , Oct 15, 2012
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              I tried to reply to kneecreek offline, but his email is not valid. Our Patagonia book should be out in a week or two on Amazon. Search there for Susan Alcorn.

                                              On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 9:07 AM, <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                              There are 3 messages in this issue.

                                              Topics in this digest:

                                              1.1. Re: Big Agnes Tents
                                                  From: rnagarajan

                                              2a. Re: JMT Training: The 5 Element Theory of ChiRunning & ChiWalking
                                                  From: alanjrich007

                                              3a. Re: Winter tent
                                                  From: kneecreak


                                              Messages
                                              ________________________________________________________________________
                                              1.1. Re: Big Agnes Tents
                                                  Posted by: "rnagarajan" ravi@... rnagarajan
                                                  Date: Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:57 pm ((PDT))

                                              After a couple of months of pondering the decision, I back-ordered the Copper Spur UL1 today since they had a 20% single item off sale.  Thanks for all the input.

                                              Let the gear acquisition begin!

                                              --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "rnagarajan" <ravi@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > After a visit to REI and much research online, I narrowed my tent choices to the Big Agnes Seedhouse SL1 and the Big Agnes Copper Spur UL1.  I'm leaning toward the Copper Spur since the base weight is only four ounces more and the vestibule is twice the square feet.  Of course it is more expensive but I think worth it if I can keep all of my gear in the vestibule rather than outside in the elements.
                                              >
                                              > Does anyone have experience with either tent?  Am I missing a possibly better option?
                                              >
                                              > It's amazing how light tents are these days if you're willing to spend some money...
                                              >







                                              Messages in this topic (35)
                                              ________________________________________________________________________
                                              ________________________________________________________________________
                                              2a. Re: JMT Training: The 5 Element Theory of ChiRunning & ChiWalking
                                                  Posted by: "alanjrich007" ajralias-ygroups@... alanjrich007
                                                  Date: Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:01 pm ((PDT))

                                              Roleigh, your five-part training program sounds great.  I do some core
                                              strength and flexibility exercises, but nothing as extensive as what you
                                              are proposing.  I think this could help extend your adventures into the
                                              future.

                                              I hiked the JMT for the first time this summer - and had the pleasure of
                                              meeting you a couple of hours south of MTR.  I noticed that your pack
                                              was pretty large - I wonder if lightening your pack could also help
                                              extend your backpacking years?  Over the last ~seven years I've been
                                              reducing my pack weight, and found that it made a huge difference in my
                                              enjoyment.  I'm 66, and I think I've got some years left that I probably
                                              wouldn't have had with my original equipment.  My base weight this
                                              summer with canister was ~11.5 pounds - I had about 26.5 pounds out of
                                              MTR counting food and water.  That's plenty for this old guy!

                                              Just a thought...

                                              Alan


                                              --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              > The fifth area of training focus listed by me below is "core symmetry
                                              > development/focus".  My oldest son is a Master
                                              >
                                              Trainer<http://www.elementscenter.com/practitioners/gyrotonicr-exercise/\
                                              27-nathan-martin-gyrotonicr-a-gyrokinesisr-instructor.html
                                              >in
                                              > Gyrotonics
                                              > <http://www.elementscenter.com/services/gyrotonicr-exercise.html>and
                                              > Gyrokinesis <http://www.gyrotonic.com/index.aspx?id=5546>.
                                              Gyrokinesis is
                                              > equipment free except for an inexpensive foldable-floor mat and stool
                                              and
                                              > how it compares against Yoga is best described in these two
                                              paragraphs:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              http://www.helium.com/items/1895317-the-differences-between-yoga-and-gyr\
                                              okinesis
                                              > and
                                              >
                                              http://www.helium.com/items/1896913-the-difference-between-yoga-and-gyro\
                                              kinesis
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > "Gyrokinesis uses different varieties of equipment which strengthen
                                              the
                                              > muscles, joints, bones and tendons. Using different kinds of range of
                                              > motion movements allows you to build up these specific parts of the
                                              body.
                                              > Gyrokinesis is incredibly popular with people since it exercises the
                                              core
                                              > muscles and as a result enhances your balance and posture. It is
                                              relatively
                                              > new when compared with Yoga and has already been practiced across the
                                              world
                                              > for a few years now.
                                              >
                                              > The primary distinction between the two is the fact that Yoga
                                              concentrates
                                              > much more upon the holistic side of physical ability. Not only does it
                                              > makes it possible to stay physically fit but also encourages mental
                                              > fitness. You keep yourself attuned to your inner being while
                                              maintaining a
                                              > positive look on your physical aspect through muscle strengthening and
                                              > flexibility. Gyrokinesis, on the other hand, concentrates more on the
                                              > physical wellbeing. It allows emphasis on balance, gait, muscle
                                              > coordination and healthy posture through building up the muscles ..."
                                              >
                                              > They have a directory of certified clinics around the world at
                                              > Gyrotonic.com<http://www.gyrotonic.com/Studios.aspx>
                                              > .
                                              >
                                              > Gyrotonics involves very incredibly cool and modern designed-equipment
                                              that
                                              > goes way beyond what one can do with Pilates and weight machines at
                                              your
                                              > local YMCA, Balley or Planet Fitness site.  See these links:
                                              >
                                              here<http://voices.yahoo.com/gyrotonics-pilates-goes-one-step-further-10\
                                              15145.html
                                              >
                                              >  and here <http://konapilates.com/Pilates_or_Gyrotonic_.html> plus the
                                              two
                                              > videos at the earlier
                                              > link<http://www.elementscenter.com/services/gyrotonicr-exercise.html>
                                              > .
                                              >
                                              > Anyway to get to the relevant point for JMT Training and how this fits
                                              > together.  I posted earlier about getting a knee bone bruise which
                                              occurred
                                              > on my last day of the JMT, descending from Whitney to Whitney Portal.
                                              An
                                              > orthopedic surgeon who is a friend of mine told me that I am quite
                                              > bowlegged and that causes while hiking undue stress on one side of the
                                              knee
                                              > versus distributed across the whole knee.  He recommended a high
                                              tibial
                                              > osteotomy <http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=A00591>.  But I
                                              > discovered to my relief from my Gyrotonic/Gyrokinesis instructor (not
                                              my
                                              > son, he lives 6 hours away but to a Master Trainer in Albany NY), that
                                              I
                                              > have asymmetrical thigh/knee/calf muscle development causing me to be
                                              > bowlegged and walk as if I was.  She showed me convincingly that doing
                                              the
                                              > exercises she showed that I can lose that bowleggedness just by
                                              focusing on
                                              > core symmetry muscle development (that is, developing the inner thigh
                                              > muscles, inner calf muscles and doing micro-joint, partial weight
                                              assisted
                                              > (multiple reps) knee flexions to develop the leg symmetrically with
                                              > healthier, more capable knees.
                                              >
                                              > She (my trainer) showed me that my lower back muscles are
                                              asymmetrically
                                              > developed which also affects the hiking gait too.
                                              >
                                              > Last, Gyrotonics' key machine (formerly called the "Pulley Tower" now
                                              > called the "Cobra") allows one to do micro-joint exercising which
                                              according
                                              > to the medical research cited in "Saving my
                                              >
                                              Knees<http://www.amazon.com/Saving-My-Knees-Doctors-ebook/dp/B004JHYTEI/\
                                              ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1349973503&sr=8-1&keywords=saving+my+knees
                                              >"
                                              > by Richard Bedard can and has (with him) grow new meniscus.  It
                                              involves
                                              > partial-weight assisted knee exercises with many reps (such as 100-200
                                              reps
                                              > per session).  Some of the exercises I have been able to jury-rig at
                                              home a
                                              > device similar to what Richard Bedard did with his knees (to do
                                              between
                                              > Gyrotonic classes).  See attached file.
                                              >
                                              > I know that many (most) group members here have no problems with
                                              hiking and
                                              > this may not be of interest (now) to them.  But a hiking injury can
                                              occur
                                              > (such as I documented my complex torn knee meniscus which happened in
                                              a
                                              > Catskill mountain hike 16 months ago) and the above will all of a
                                              sudden
                                              > become relevant (I use the physical therapy described above, plus
                                              > conventional knee/leg workouts able to be done at a YMCA, plus having
                                              > prolotherapy sessions as also detailed months ago (search our archives
                                              or
                                              > see my Google Profile for more about that).
                                              >
                                              > By the way, on the topic of "balance" and "flexibility", I attended
                                              the
                                              > funeral of my 92 year old uncle and he died because of lacking both,
                                              he
                                              > fell walking to the bathroom and broke his hip and died due to
                                              surgical
                                              > complications.  Had he focused on both, he'd still be alive and well.
                                              >
                                              > Last, Gyrokinesis classes are inexpensive where I live, only $18 per
                                              hour
                                              > if a package of 5 hour-long classes are purchased.  $20 per single
                                              class
                                              > otherwise.
                                              >
                                              > -------------------------------------------------
                                              > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
                                              > links)<https://profiles.google.com/104440166440169700478/about>
                                              > _
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Roleigh marti124@... wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > **
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Approaching 63, I've come to the realization I need to focus on 5
                                              training
                                              > > issues in order to continue doing a full JMT hike each summer. My 5
                                              differ
                                              > > slightly from this interesting walking methodology. Involve yourself
                                              in
                                              > > aerobic, anaerobic, balance, flexibility and core symmetry
                                              > > development/workouts. I'll post more on these 5 issues later but in
                                              the
                                              > > last 6 months I've learned a lot more about what I think is vital
                                              for
                                              > > training for a JMT as one gets older. Also, in a side comment to
                                              Google
                                              > > Reader Posts, one is limited to so many bytes.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Sent to you by Roleigh via Google Reader:
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > The Five Element Theory of ChiRunning and
                                              ChiWalking<http://www.chirunning.com/blog/entry/the-five-element-theory-\
                                              of-chirunning-and-chiwalking#When:15:32:44Z
                                              >
                                              > >  via Chi Living Blog <http://www.chirunning.com/blog/> on 10/11/12
                                              > >
                                              > >  In Chinese Medicine the study of the elements are the fundamental
                                              way in
                                              > > which the human body is analyzed and understood. There are actually
                                              several
                                              > > approaches to the study of the elements. The elements to be
                                              considered can
                                              > > be: earth, water, fire, air or metal, wood, and sometimes ether.
                                              For the
                                              > > purpose of this article we're going to focus on earth as it
                                              relates to
                                              > > structure and stability; water as it relates to flowing movement;
                                              fire as
                                              > > it relates to work, transformation and energy; air, as it relates to
                                              > > breathing and "inspiration;" and ether as the power of the
                                              mind to direct
                                              > > one's energy or chi.
                                              > >
                                              > > In the Chi techniques, various sections of the body are represented
                                              by
                                              > > these five elements. Your bones, ligaments and tendons are
                                              represented by
                                              > > the element Earth, which creates  stability in your body and
                                              connection to
                                              > > the earth. Water represents the rotational movement of the pelvis
                                              which
                                              > > allows the fluid motion of swinging of your arms and legs. The fire
                                              element
                                              > > can be felt in the power and energy of the core muscles. Your core
                                              is
                                              > > called the powerhouse, in Pilates – for a good reason. In more
                                              advanced
                                              > > levels of ChiRunning® and ChiWalking®, you can use your
                                              oblique muscles to
                                              > > create more energy for moving forward. Air feeds fire, so in your
                                              lungs and
                                              > > breathing you can see the most important source of energy for the
                                              body.
                                              > > Ether is related to your mind and to chi energy. And, though they
                                              are both
                                              > > invisible and unmeasurable, they are the most powerful tools you
                                              have when
                                              > > it comes to moving your body. When you have a thought and your body
                                              > > responds immediately, the element of ether is at work, guided by
                                              your mind
                                              > > to move your body.
                                              > >
                                              > > *Earth*
                                              > > As you learn the Chi techniques, you start from the ground up with
                                              good
                                              > > posture (Earth). This provides your body stable support with every
                                              stride.
                                              > > If your posture is not aligned during the support phase of your
                                              stride
                                              > > (shoulders, hips and ankles in a straight line) you will rely too
                                              much on
                                              > > your muscles to support the weight of your body instead of your
                                              skeletal
                                              > > structure. This wastes valuable energy and you'll tire more
                                              quickly. This
                                              > > is the first phase of learning the Chi techniques; earth-like
                                              stability.
                                              > >
                                              > > *Water*
                                              > > As you learn to run with good postural support, the next element to
                                              > > emulate is Water, which will add some fluidity to your structure.
                                              This
                                              > > requires incorporating a level of relaxation into your stride. This
                                              takes a
                                              > > lot of practice as most of us tend to hold tension in our pelvis and
                                              > > shoulders. Many of us try too hard and don't allow the natural
                                              flow and
                                              > > flexibility of our body to create smooth, flowing movements. The
                                              ChiRunning
                                              > > Body Looseners will make a huge difference as well as Body Sensing
                                              tension
                                              > > and learning to release it. Learning to relax is the crucial second
                                              stage;
                                              > > water-like fluidity. Water is especially important in the flight
                                              phase of
                                              > > your stride, when you want to allow for the greatest stretch and
                                              range of
                                              > > motion in your body.
                                              > >
                                              > > The element of water is a lot about letting go. As water flows down
                                              a
                                              > > mountain and over a waterfall, it does not hold back. In the Chi
                                              techniques
                                              > > there is a sense of ease that needs to be developed in order to
                                              understand
                                              > > that you do not have to work hard to make movement happen. As you
                                              learn to
                                              > > trust the watery aspect of movement, you'll go faster with less
                                              effort and
                                              > > reduce injury as well.
                                              > >
                                              > > *Fire*
                                              > > As you progress through these first two stages of your ChiRunning,
                                              it is
                                              > > important to keep in mind that until you fully feel the stability of
                                              earth
                                              > > and the fluidity of water, there is no point in focusing on the use
                                              of the
                                              > > core muscles (fire element) to enhance your movement. If you add
                                              fire to an
                                              > > unstable or overly rigid technique, you'll be creating a recipe
                                              for injury.
                                              > > Forcing water down a twisted pipe can create a lot of problems.
                                              However,
                                              > > once you are moving with these two elements functioning well in our
                                              body,
                                              > > adding some heat and some fire can create a lot of power, especially
                                              by
                                              > > engaging your obliques. This is an advanced technique described in
                                              the Chi
                                              > > Marathon book in Chapter 9 Advanced Techniques, where you use the
                                              obliques
                                              > > to drive the pelvis which, in turn, drives the legs.  This allows
                                              you to
                                              > > "use" your legs for propulsion without using your leg
                                              muscles.
                                              > >
                                              > > *Air*
                                              > > When your skill with all the Chi techniques is at the stage where
                                              you can
                                              > > run comfortably and all of these first three elements are working
                                              like
                                              > > clockwork, the next ingredient for your running will be Air. An
                                              interesting
                                              > > word associated with the breath is "inspiration" which has a
                                              double
                                              > > meaning. The physical definition of inspiration is, to inhale. The
                                              > > emotional definition is, to be inspired… which is what your
                                              running or
                                              > > walking will be.
                                              > > At this level a practice session begins to feel more like a dance
                                              than a
                                              > > workout!
                                              > >
                                              > > *Ether*
                                              > > The last element to enter into your running or walking is Ether.
                                              When your
                                              > > mind and body are integrated, just a thought can create truly
                                              effortless
                                              > > movement. In Chinese philosophy, moving and directing the flow of
                                              ether
                                              > > through your body is called, Y-Chi which can also be described as
                                              > > intention, where you direct the movement of your Chi which, in turn
                                              moves
                                              > > your body.
                                              > >
                                              > > The study of the elements is a great way to get a different kind of
                                              feel
                                              > > for the Chi techniques. When you are feeling yourself stable yet
                                              fluid;
                                              > > learning to regulate the chi moving through your body; and getting
                                              to the
                                              > > place where an idea creates movement … anything is possible.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Things you can do from here:
                                              > >
                                              > >    - Subscribe to Chi Living
                                              Blog<http://www.google.com/reader/view/feed%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.chiliving\
                                              .com%2Fblog%2Frss%2F?source=email
                                              >using
                                              > >    *Google Reader*
                                              > >    - Get started using Google
                                              Reader<http://www.google.com/reader/?source=email>to easily keep up with
                                              > >    *all your favorite sites*
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >







                                              Messages in this topic (3)
                                              ________________________________________________________________________
                                              ________________________________________________________________________
                                              3a. Re: Winter tent
                                                  Posted by: "kneecreak" kneecreak@... kneecreak
                                                  Date: Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:16 pm ((PDT))

                                              I am interested in your book.  When will it be available? And Where?

                                              --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Ralph Alcorn <rbalcorn@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > We did have one issue with the Warmlite. We have the long version. At the
                                              > time we used in in Torres del Paine, we did not have wind stabilizers.
                                              > (they are standard in the climbers version). On the last night, we were in
                                              > a large open area, and there was a very strong side wind. Everyone else had
                                              > moved their tents into the  lee of a building for shelter, but I could
                                              > still stand up, so knew the wind wasn't 95 mph, the rating of the tent when
                                              > we bought it. About 5 minutes after we were in  the tent, the main pole
                                              > snapped, and I had to move the tent jury rig a line to a tree from the
                                              > broken pole to keep the tent up. When we got back, I looked at their
                                              > website again. They were just putting up a new site, and on the new site,
                                              > the tent was rated at 65 mph without stabilizers. Stephensons repaired the
                                              > broken pole and hole it poked in the tent at no charge, and added wind
                                              > stabilizers at my request for a modest charge. I'm quite pleased with the
                                              > tent, but now I'm a little more cautious about pushing my gear to its
                                              > limits. We will have a book out on Patagonia and TdP trails,
                                              > recommendations, etc. probably by the end of the month. You could email me
                                              > off list for more info.
                                              > -
                                              > Ralph Alcorn
                                              > http://www.backpack45.com/camino2.html
                                              > http://timecheck00.blogspot.com
                                              > Shepherd Canyon books, Publisher of
                                              > We're in the Mountains, Not Over the Hill: Tales and Tips from Seasoned
                                              > Women Backpackers (also in Kindle), and
                                              > Camino Chronicle: Walking to Santiago (also in Kindle)
                                              >







                                              Messages in this topic (20)



                                              Please strip out "replied-to" text if not necessary to your reply.  Failure to strip makes it hard for our Daily Digest members to find the new postings among the repeats. For the crib sheet to take on JMT: http://tinyurl.com/6j6axeq - Prints on 1 sheet all the essential phone numbers/addresses you'll want for all services needed on or off the trail. We encourage all to join the JohnMuirTrail_Sidebar Yahoo Group, just send a blank email to:
                                              JohnMuirTrail_Sidebar-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

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                                              --
                                              Ralph Alcorn
                                              http://www.backpack45.com/camino2.html
                                              http://timecheck00.blogspot.com
                                              Shepherd Canyon books, Publisher of
                                              We're in the Mountains, Not Over the Hill: Tales and Tips from Seasoned Women Backpackers (also in Kindle), and
                                              Camino Chronicle: Walking to Santiago (also in Kindle)


                                            • kneecreak
                                              Thanks for the info on your book. Don t know why the address did not work; but I am not to tech savvy.
                                              Message 23 of 26 , Oct 16, 2012
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Thanks for the info on your book. Don't know why the address did not work; but I am not to tech savvy.

                                                --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Ralph Alcorn <rbalcorn@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > I tried to reply to kneecreek offline, but his email is not valid. Our
                                                > Patagonia book should be out in a week or two on Amazon. Search there for
                                                > Susan Alcorn.
                                                >
                                                > On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 9:07 AM, <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > There are 3 messages in this issue.
                                                > >
                                                > > Topics in this digest:
                                                > >
                                                > > 1.1. Re: Big Agnes Tents
                                                > > From: rnagarajan
                                                > >
                                                > > 2a. Re: JMT Training: The 5 Element Theory of ChiRunning & ChiWalking
                                                > > From: alanjrich007
                                                > >
                                                > > 3a. Re: Winter tent
                                                > > From: kneecreak
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Messages
                                                > > ________________________________________________________________________
                                                > > 1.1. Re: Big Agnes Tents
                                                > > Posted by: "rnagarajan" ravi@... rnagarajan
                                                > > Date: Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:57 pm ((PDT))
                                                > >
                                                > > After a couple of months of pondering the decision, I back-ordered the
                                                > > Copper Spur UL1 today since they had a 20% single item off sale. Thanks
                                                > > for all the input.
                                                > >
                                                > > Let the gear acquisition begin!
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "rnagarajan" <ravi@> wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > After a visit to REI and much research online, I narrowed my tent
                                                > > choices to the Big Agnes Seedhouse SL1 and the Big Agnes Copper Spur UL1.
                                                > > I'm leaning toward the Copper Spur since the base weight is only four
                                                > > ounces more and the vestibule is twice the square feet. Of course it is
                                                > > more expensive but I think worth it if I can keep all of my gear in the
                                                > > vestibule rather than outside in the elements.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Does anyone have experience with either tent? Am I missing a possibly
                                                > > better option?
                                                > > >
                                                > > > It's amazing how light tents are these days if you're willing to spend
                                                > > some money...
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Messages in this topic (35)
                                                > > ________________________________________________________________________
                                                > > ________________________________________________________________________
                                                > > 2a. Re: JMT Training: The 5 Element Theory of ChiRunning & ChiWalking
                                                > > Posted by: "alanjrich007" ajralias-ygroups@... alanjrich007
                                                > > Date: Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:01 pm ((PDT))
                                                > >
                                                > > Roleigh, your five-part training program sounds great. I do some core
                                                > > strength and flexibility exercises, but nothing as extensive as what you
                                                > > are proposing. I think this could help extend your adventures into the
                                                > > future.
                                                > >
                                                > > I hiked the JMT for the first time this summer - and had the pleasure of
                                                > > meeting you a couple of hours south of MTR. I noticed that your pack
                                                > > was pretty large - I wonder if lightening your pack could also help
                                                > > extend your backpacking years? Over the last ~seven years I've been
                                                > > reducing my pack weight, and found that it made a huge difference in my
                                                > > enjoyment. I'm 66, and I think I've got some years left that I probably
                                                > > wouldn't have had with my original equipment. My base weight this
                                                > > summer with canister was ~11.5 pounds - I had about 26.5 pounds out of
                                                > > MTR counting food and water. That's plenty for this old guy!
                                                > >
                                                > > Just a thought...
                                                > >
                                                > > Alan
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@>
                                                > > wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > The fifth area of training focus listed by me below is "core symmetry
                                                > > > development/focus". My oldest son is a Master
                                                > > >
                                                > > Trainer<http://www.elementscenter.com/practitioners/gyrotonicr-exercise/\
                                                > > 27-nathan-martin-gyrotonicr-a-gyrokinesisr-instructor.html>in
                                                > > > Gyrotonics
                                                > > > <http://www.elementscenter.com/services/gyrotonicr-exercise.html>and
                                                > > > Gyrokinesis <http://www.gyrotonic.com/index.aspx?id=5546>.
                                                > > Gyrokinesis is
                                                > > > equipment free except for an inexpensive foldable-floor mat and stool
                                                > > and
                                                > > > how it compares against Yoga is best described in these two
                                                > > paragraphs:
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > http://www.helium.com/items/1895317-the-differences-between-yoga-and-gyr\
                                                > > okinesis
                                                > > > and
                                                > > >
                                                > > http://www.helium.com/items/1896913-the-difference-between-yoga-and-gyro\
                                                > > kinesis
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > "Gyrokinesis uses different varieties of equipment which strengthen
                                                > > the
                                                > > > muscles, joints, bones and tendons. Using different kinds of range of
                                                > > > motion movements allows you to build up these specific parts of the
                                                > > body.
                                                > > > Gyrokinesis is incredibly popular with people since it exercises the
                                                > > core
                                                > > > muscles and as a result enhances your balance and posture. It is
                                                > > relatively
                                                > > > new when compared with Yoga and has already been practiced across the
                                                > > world
                                                > > > for a few years now.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > The primary distinction between the two is the fact that Yoga
                                                > > concentrates
                                                > > > much more upon the holistic side of physical ability. Not only does it
                                                > > > makes it possible to stay physically fit but also encourages mental
                                                > > > fitness. You keep yourself attuned to your inner being while
                                                > > maintaining a
                                                > > > positive look on your physical aspect through muscle strengthening and
                                                > > > flexibility. Gyrokinesis, on the other hand, concentrates more on the
                                                > > > physical wellbeing. It allows emphasis on balance, gait, muscle
                                                > > > coordination and healthy posture through building up the muscles ..."
                                                > > >
                                                > > > They have a directory of certified clinics around the world at
                                                > > > Gyrotonic.com<http://www.gyrotonic.com/Studios.aspx>
                                                > > > .
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Gyrotonics involves very incredibly cool and modern designed-equipment
                                                > > that
                                                > > > goes way beyond what one can do with Pilates and weight machines at
                                                > > your
                                                > > > local YMCA, Balley or Planet Fitness site. See these links:
                                                > > >
                                                > > here<http://voices.yahoo.com/gyrotonics-pilates-goes-one-step-further-10\
                                                > > 15145.html>
                                                > > > and here <http://konapilates.com/Pilates_or_Gyrotonic_.html> plus the
                                                > > two
                                                > > > videos at the earlier
                                                > > > link<http://www.elementscenter.com/services/gyrotonicr-exercise.html>
                                                > > > .
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Anyway to get to the relevant point for JMT Training and how this fits
                                                > > > together. I posted earlier about getting a knee bone bruise which
                                                > > occurred
                                                > > > on my last day of the JMT, descending from Whitney to Whitney Portal.
                                                > > An
                                                > > > orthopedic surgeon who is a friend of mine told me that I am quite
                                                > > > bowlegged and that causes while hiking undue stress on one side of the
                                                > > knee
                                                > > > versus distributed across the whole knee. He recommended a high
                                                > > tibial
                                                > > > osteotomy <http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=A00591>. But I
                                                > > > discovered to my relief from my Gyrotonic/Gyrokinesis instructor (not
                                                > > my
                                                > > > son, he lives 6 hours away but to a Master Trainer in Albany NY), that
                                                > > I
                                                > > > have asymmetrical thigh/knee/calf muscle development causing me to be
                                                > > > bowlegged and walk as if I was. She showed me convincingly that doing
                                                > > the
                                                > > > exercises she showed that I can lose that bowleggedness just by
                                                > > focusing on
                                                > > > core symmetry muscle development (that is, developing the inner thigh
                                                > > > muscles, inner calf muscles and doing micro-joint, partial weight
                                                > > assisted
                                                > > > (multiple reps) knee flexions to develop the leg symmetrically with
                                                > > > healthier, more capable knees.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > She (my trainer) showed me that my lower back muscles are
                                                > > asymmetrically
                                                > > > developed which also affects the hiking gait too.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Last, Gyrotonics' key machine (formerly called the "Pulley Tower" now
                                                > > > called the "Cobra") allows one to do micro-joint exercising which
                                                > > according
                                                > > > to the medical research cited in "Saving my
                                                > > >
                                                > > Knees<http://www.amazon.com/Saving-My-Knees-Doctors-ebook/dp/B004JHYTEI/\
                                                > > ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1349973503&sr=8-1&keywords=saving+my+knees>"
                                                > > > by Richard Bedard can and has (with him) grow new meniscus. It
                                                > > involves
                                                > > > partial-weight assisted knee exercises with many reps (such as 100-200
                                                > > reps
                                                > > > per session). Some of the exercises I have been able to jury-rig at
                                                > > home a
                                                > > > device similar to what Richard Bedard did with his knees (to do
                                                > > between
                                                > > > Gyrotonic classes). See attached file.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > I know that many (most) group members here have no problems with
                                                > > hiking and
                                                > > > this may not be of interest (now) to them. But a hiking injury can
                                                > > occur
                                                > > > (such as I documented my complex torn knee meniscus which happened in
                                                > > a
                                                > > > Catskill mountain hike 16 months ago) and the above will all of a
                                                > > sudden
                                                > > > become relevant (I use the physical therapy described above, plus
                                                > > > conventional knee/leg workouts able to be done at a YMCA, plus having
                                                > > > prolotherapy sessions as also detailed months ago (search our archives
                                                > > or
                                                > > > see my Google Profile for more about that).
                                                > > >
                                                > > > By the way, on the topic of "balance" and "flexibility", I attended
                                                > > the
                                                > > > funeral of my 92 year old uncle and he died because of lacking both,
                                                > > he
                                                > > > fell walking to the bathroom and broke his hip and died due to
                                                > > surgical
                                                > > > complications. Had he focused on both, he'd still be alive and well.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Last, Gyrokinesis classes are inexpensive where I live, only $18 per
                                                > > hour
                                                > > > if a package of 5 hour-long classes are purchased. $20 per single
                                                > > class
                                                > > > otherwise.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > -------------------------------------------------
                                                > > > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
                                                > > > links)<https://profiles.google.com/104440166440169700478/about>
                                                > > > _
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Roleigh marti124@ wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > > **
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Approaching 63, I've come to the realization I need to focus on 5
                                                > > training
                                                > > > > issues in order to continue doing a full JMT hike each summer. My 5
                                                > > differ
                                                > > > > slightly from this interesting walking methodology. Involve yourself
                                                > > in
                                                > > > > aerobic, anaerobic, balance, flexibility and core symmetry
                                                > > > > development/workouts. I'll post more on these 5 issues later but in
                                                > > the
                                                > > > > last 6 months I've learned a lot more about what I think is vital
                                                > > for
                                                > > > > training for a JMT as one gets older. Also, in a side comment to
                                                > > Google
                                                > > > > Reader Posts, one is limited to so many bytes.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Sent to you by Roleigh via Google Reader:
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > The Five Element Theory of ChiRunning and
                                                > > ChiWalking<http://www.chirunning.com/blog/entry/the-five-element-theory-\
                                                > > of-chirunning-and-chiwalking#When:15:32:44Z>
                                                > > > > via Chi Living Blog <http://www.chirunning.com/blog/> on 10/11/12
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > In Chinese Medicine the study of the elements are the fundamental
                                                > > way in
                                                > > > > which the human body is analyzed and understood. There are actually
                                                > > several
                                                > > > > approaches to the study of the elements. The elements to be
                                                > > considered can
                                                > > > > be: earth, water, fire, air or metal, wood, and sometimes ether.
                                                > > For the
                                                > > > > purpose of this article we're going to focus on earth as it
                                                > > relates to
                                                > > > > structure and stability; water as it relates to flowing movement;
                                                > > fire as
                                                > > > > it relates to work, transformation and energy; air, as it relates to
                                                > > > > breathing and "inspiration;" and ether as the power of the
                                                > > mind to direct
                                                > > > > one's energy or chi.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > In the Chi techniques, various sections of the body are represented
                                                > > by
                                                > > > > these five elements. Your bones, ligaments and tendons are
                                                > > represented by
                                                > > > > the element Earth, which creates stability in your body and
                                                > > connection to
                                                > > > > the earth. Water represents the rotational movement of the pelvis
                                                > > which
                                                > > > > allows the fluid motion of swinging of your arms and legs. The fire
                                                > > element
                                                > > > > can be felt in the power and energy of the core muscles. Your core
                                                > > is
                                                > > > > called the powerhouse, in Pilates – for a good reason. In more
                                                > > advanced
                                                > > > > levels of ChiRunning® and ChiWalking®, you can use your
                                                > > oblique muscles to
                                                > > > > create more energy for moving forward. Air feeds fire, so in your
                                                > > lungs and
                                                > > > > breathing you can see the most important source of energy for the
                                                > > body.
                                                > > > > Ether is related to your mind and to chi energy. And, though they
                                                > > are both
                                                > > > > invisible and unmeasurable, they are the most powerful tools you
                                                > > have when
                                                > > > > it comes to moving your body. When you have a thought and your body
                                                > > > > responds immediately, the element of ether is at work, guided by
                                                > > your mind
                                                > > > > to move your body.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > *Earth*
                                                > > > > As you learn the Chi techniques, you start from the ground up with
                                                > > good
                                                > > > > posture (Earth). This provides your body stable support with every
                                                > > stride.
                                                > > > > If your posture is not aligned during the support phase of your
                                                > > stride
                                                > > > > (shoulders, hips and ankles in a straight line) you will rely too
                                                > > much on
                                                > > > > your muscles to support the weight of your body instead of your
                                                > > skeletal
                                                > > > > structure. This wastes valuable energy and you'll tire more
                                                > > quickly. This
                                                > > > > is the first phase of learning the Chi techniques; earth-like
                                                > > stability.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > *Water*
                                                > > > > As you learn to run with good postural support, the next element to
                                                > > > > emulate is Water, which will add some fluidity to your structure.
                                                > > This
                                                > > > > requires incorporating a level of relaxation into your stride. This
                                                > > takes a
                                                > > > > lot of practice as most of us tend to hold tension in our pelvis and
                                                > > > > shoulders. Many of us try too hard and don't allow the natural
                                                > > flow and
                                                > > > > flexibility of our body to create smooth, flowing movements. The
                                                > > ChiRunning
                                                > > > > Body Looseners will make a huge difference as well as Body Sensing
                                                > > tension
                                                > > > > and learning to release it. Learning to relax is the crucial second
                                                > > stage;
                                                > > > > water-like fluidity. Water is especially important in the flight
                                                > > phase of
                                                > > > > your stride, when you want to allow for the greatest stretch and
                                                > > range of
                                                > > > > motion in your body.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > The element of water is a lot about letting go. As water flows down
                                                > > a
                                                > > > > mountain and over a waterfall, it does not hold back. In the Chi
                                                > > techniques
                                                > > > > there is a sense of ease that needs to be developed in order to
                                                > > understand
                                                > > > > that you do not have to work hard to make movement happen. As you
                                                > > learn to
                                                > > > > trust the watery aspect of movement, you'll go faster with less
                                                > > effort and
                                                > > > > reduce injury as well.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > *Fire*
                                                > > > > As you progress through these first two stages of your ChiRunning,
                                                > > it is
                                                > > > > important to keep in mind that until you fully feel the stability of
                                                > > earth
                                                > > > > and the fluidity of water, there is no point in focusing on the use
                                                > > of the
                                                > > > > core muscles (fire element) to enhance your movement. If you add
                                                > > fire to an
                                                > > > > unstable or overly rigid technique, you'll be creating a recipe
                                                > > for injury.
                                                > > > > Forcing water down a twisted pipe can create a lot of problems.
                                                > > However,
                                                > > > > once you are moving with these two elements functioning well in our
                                                > > body,
                                                > > > > adding some heat and some fire can create a lot of power, especially
                                                > > by
                                                > > > > engaging your obliques. This is an advanced technique described in
                                                > > the Chi
                                                > > > > Marathon book in Chapter 9 Advanced Techniques, where you use the
                                                > > obliques
                                                > > > > to drive the pelvis which, in turn, drives the legs. This allows
                                                > > you to
                                                > > > > "use" your legs for propulsion without using your leg
                                                > > muscles.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > *Air*
                                                > > > > When your skill with all the Chi techniques is at the stage where
                                                > > you can
                                                > > > > run comfortably and all of these first three elements are working
                                                > > like
                                                > > > > clockwork, the next ingredient for your running will be Air. An
                                                > > interesting
                                                > > > > word associated with the breath is "inspiration" which has a
                                                > > double
                                                > > > > meaning. The physical definition of inspiration is, to inhale. The
                                                > > > > emotional definition is, to be inspired… which is what your
                                                > > running or
                                                > > > > walking will be.
                                                > > > > At this level a practice session begins to feel more like a dance
                                                > > than a
                                                > > > > workout!
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > *Ether*
                                                > > > > The last element to enter into your running or walking is Ether.
                                                > > When your
                                                > > > > mind and body are integrated, just a thought can create truly
                                                > > effortless
                                                > > > > movement. In Chinese philosophy, moving and directing the flow of
                                                > > ether
                                                > > > > through your body is called, Y-Chi which can also be described as
                                                > > > > intention, where you direct the movement of your Chi which, in turn
                                                > > moves
                                                > > > > your body.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > The study of the elements is a great way to get a different kind of
                                                > > feel
                                                > > > > for the Chi techniques. When you are feeling yourself stable yet
                                                > > fluid;
                                                > > > > learning to regulate the chi moving through your body; and getting
                                                > > to the
                                                > > > > place where an idea creates movement … anything is possible.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Things you can do from here:
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > - Subscribe to Chi Living
                                                > > Blog<http://www.google.com/reader/view/feed%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.chiliving\
                                                > > .com%2Fblog%2Frss%2F?source=email>using
                                                > > > > *Google Reader*
                                                > > > > - Get started using Google
                                                > > Reader<http://www.google.com/reader/?source=email>to easily keep up with
                                                > > > > *all your favorite sites*
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Messages in this topic (3)
                                                > > ________________________________________________________________________
                                                > > ________________________________________________________________________
                                                > > 3a. Re: Winter tent
                                                > > Posted by: "kneecreak" kneecreak@... kneecreak
                                                > > Date: Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:16 pm ((PDT))
                                                > >
                                                > > I am interested in your book. When will it be available? And Where?
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Ralph Alcorn <rbalcorn@> wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > We did have one issue with the Warmlite. We have the long version. At the
                                                > > > time we used in in Torres del Paine, we did not have wind stabilizers.
                                                > > > (they are standard in the climbers version). On the last night, we were
                                                > > in
                                                > > > a large open area, and there was a very strong side wind. Everyone else
                                                > > had
                                                > > > moved their tents into the lee of a building for shelter, but I could
                                                > > > still stand up, so knew the wind wasn't 95 mph, the rating of the tent
                                                > > when
                                                > > > we bought it. About 5 minutes after we were in the tent, the main pole
                                                > > > snapped, and I had to move the tent jury rig a line to a tree from the
                                                > > > broken pole to keep the tent up. When we got back, I looked at their
                                                > > > website again. They were just putting up a new site, and on the new site,
                                                > > > the tent was rated at 65 mph without stabilizers. Stephensons repaired
                                                > > the
                                                > > > broken pole and hole it poked in the tent at no charge, and added wind
                                                > > > stabilizers at my request for a modest charge. I'm quite pleased with the
                                                > > > tent, but now I'm a little more cautious about pushing my gear to its
                                                > > > limits. We will have a book out on Patagonia and TdP trails,
                                                > > > recommendations, etc. probably by the end of the month. You could email
                                                > > me
                                                > > > off list for more info.
                                                > > > -
                                                > > > Ralph Alcorn
                                                > > > http://www.backpack45.com/camino2.html
                                                > > > http://timecheck00.blogspot.com
                                                > > > Shepherd Canyon books, Publisher of
                                                > > > We're in the Mountains, Not Over the Hill: Tales and Tips from Seasoned
                                                > > > Women Backpackers (also in Kindle), and
                                                > > > Camino Chronicle: Walking to Santiago (also in Kindle)
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Messages in this topic (20)
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Please strip out "replied-to" text if not necessary to your reply.
                                                > > Failure to strip makes it hard for our Daily Digest members to find the
                                                > > new postings among the repeats. For the crib sheet to take on JMT:
                                                > > http://tinyurl.com/6j6axeq - Prints on 1 sheet all the essential phone
                                                > > numbers/addresses you'll want for all services needed on or off the trail.
                                                > > We encourage all to join the JohnMuirTrail_Sidebar Yahoo Group, just send a
                                                > > blank email to:
                                                > > JohnMuirTrail_Sidebar-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                > >
                                                > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --
                                                > Ralph Alcorn
                                                > http://www.backpack45.com/camino2.html
                                                > http://timecheck00.blogspot.com
                                                > Shepherd Canyon books, Publisher of
                                                > We're in the Mountains, Not Over the Hill: Tales and Tips from Seasoned
                                                > Women Backpackers (also in Kindle), and
                                                > Camino Chronicle: Walking to Santiago (also in Kindle)
                                                >
                                              • kneecreak
                                                Got the book. It is a gem. No surprise there. Thanks to you both.
                                                Message 24 of 26 , Oct 28, 2012
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Got the book. It is a gem. No surprise there. Thanks to you both.

                                                  --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "kneecreak" <kneecreak@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Thanks for the info on your book. Don't know why the address did not work; but I am not to tech savvy.
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Ralph Alcorn <rbalcorn@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I tried to reply to kneecreek offline, but his email is not valid. Our
                                                  > > Patagonia book should be out in a week or two on Amazon. Search there for
                                                  > > Susan Alcorn.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 9:07 AM, <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > There are 3 messages in this issue.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Topics in this digest:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > 1.1. Re: Big Agnes Tents
                                                  > > > From: rnagarajan
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > 2a. Re: JMT Training: The 5 Element Theory of ChiRunning & ChiWalking
                                                  > > > From: alanjrich007
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > 3a. Re: Winter tent
                                                  > > > From: kneecreak
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Messages
                                                  > > > ________________________________________________________________________
                                                  > > > 1.1. Re: Big Agnes Tents
                                                  > > > Posted by: "rnagarajan" ravi@ rnagarajan
                                                  > > > Date: Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:57 pm ((PDT))
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > After a couple of months of pondering the decision, I back-ordered the
                                                  > > > Copper Spur UL1 today since they had a 20% single item off sale. Thanks
                                                  > > > for all the input.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Let the gear acquisition begin!
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "rnagarajan" <ravi@> wrote:
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > After a visit to REI and much research online, I narrowed my tent
                                                  > > > choices to the Big Agnes Seedhouse SL1 and the Big Agnes Copper Spur UL1.
                                                  > > > I'm leaning toward the Copper Spur since the base weight is only four
                                                  > > > ounces more and the vestibule is twice the square feet. Of course it is
                                                  > > > more expensive but I think worth it if I can keep all of my gear in the
                                                  > > > vestibule rather than outside in the elements.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Does anyone have experience with either tent? Am I missing a possibly
                                                  > > > better option?
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > It's amazing how light tents are these days if you're willing to spend
                                                  > > > some money...
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Messages in this topic (35)
                                                  > > > ________________________________________________________________________
                                                  > > > ________________________________________________________________________
                                                  > > > 2a. Re: JMT Training: The 5 Element Theory of ChiRunning & ChiWalking
                                                  > > > Posted by: "alanjrich007" ajralias-ygroups@ alanjrich007
                                                  > > > Date: Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:01 pm ((PDT))
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Roleigh, your five-part training program sounds great. I do some core
                                                  > > > strength and flexibility exercises, but nothing as extensive as what you
                                                  > > > are proposing. I think this could help extend your adventures into the
                                                  > > > future.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > I hiked the JMT for the first time this summer - and had the pleasure of
                                                  > > > meeting you a couple of hours south of MTR. I noticed that your pack
                                                  > > > was pretty large - I wonder if lightening your pack could also help
                                                  > > > extend your backpacking years? Over the last ~seven years I've been
                                                  > > > reducing my pack weight, and found that it made a huge difference in my
                                                  > > > enjoyment. I'm 66, and I think I've got some years left that I probably
                                                  > > > wouldn't have had with my original equipment. My base weight this
                                                  > > > summer with canister was ~11.5 pounds - I had about 26.5 pounds out of
                                                  > > > MTR counting food and water. That's plenty for this old guy!
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Just a thought...
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Alan
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@>
                                                  > > > wrote:
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > The fifth area of training focus listed by me below is "core symmetry
                                                  > > > > development/focus". My oldest son is a Master
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > Trainer<http://www.elementscenter.com/practitioners/gyrotonicr-exercise/\
                                                  > > > 27-nathan-martin-gyrotonicr-a-gyrokinesisr-instructor.html>in
                                                  > > > > Gyrotonics
                                                  > > > > <http://www.elementscenter.com/services/gyrotonicr-exercise.html>and
                                                  > > > > Gyrokinesis <http://www.gyrotonic.com/index.aspx?id=5546>.
                                                  > > > Gyrokinesis is
                                                  > > > > equipment free except for an inexpensive foldable-floor mat and stool
                                                  > > > and
                                                  > > > > how it compares against Yoga is best described in these two
                                                  > > > paragraphs:
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > http://www.helium.com/items/1895317-the-differences-between-yoga-and-gyr\
                                                  > > > okinesis
                                                  > > > > and
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > http://www.helium.com/items/1896913-the-difference-between-yoga-and-gyro\
                                                  > > > kinesis
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > "Gyrokinesis uses different varieties of equipment which strengthen
                                                  > > > the
                                                  > > > > muscles, joints, bones and tendons. Using different kinds of range of
                                                  > > > > motion movements allows you to build up these specific parts of the
                                                  > > > body.
                                                  > > > > Gyrokinesis is incredibly popular with people since it exercises the
                                                  > > > core
                                                  > > > > muscles and as a result enhances your balance and posture. It is
                                                  > > > relatively
                                                  > > > > new when compared with Yoga and has already been practiced across the
                                                  > > > world
                                                  > > > > for a few years now.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > The primary distinction between the two is the fact that Yoga
                                                  > > > concentrates
                                                  > > > > much more upon the holistic side of physical ability. Not only does it
                                                  > > > > makes it possible to stay physically fit but also encourages mental
                                                  > > > > fitness. You keep yourself attuned to your inner being while
                                                  > > > maintaining a
                                                  > > > > positive look on your physical aspect through muscle strengthening and
                                                  > > > > flexibility. Gyrokinesis, on the other hand, concentrates more on the
                                                  > > > > physical wellbeing. It allows emphasis on balance, gait, muscle
                                                  > > > > coordination and healthy posture through building up the muscles ..."
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > They have a directory of certified clinics around the world at
                                                  > > > > Gyrotonic.com<http://www.gyrotonic.com/Studios.aspx>
                                                  > > > > .
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Gyrotonics involves very incredibly cool and modern designed-equipment
                                                  > > > that
                                                  > > > > goes way beyond what one can do with Pilates and weight machines at
                                                  > > > your
                                                  > > > > local YMCA, Balley or Planet Fitness site. See these links:
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > here<http://voices.yahoo.com/gyrotonics-pilates-goes-one-step-further-10\
                                                  > > > 15145.html>
                                                  > > > > and here <http://konapilates.com/Pilates_or_Gyrotonic_.html> plus the
                                                  > > > two
                                                  > > > > videos at the earlier
                                                  > > > > link<http://www.elementscenter.com/services/gyrotonicr-exercise.html>
                                                  > > > > .
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Anyway to get to the relevant point for JMT Training and how this fits
                                                  > > > > together. I posted earlier about getting a knee bone bruise which
                                                  > > > occurred
                                                  > > > > on my last day of the JMT, descending from Whitney to Whitney Portal.
                                                  > > > An
                                                  > > > > orthopedic surgeon who is a friend of mine told me that I am quite
                                                  > > > > bowlegged and that causes while hiking undue stress on one side of the
                                                  > > > knee
                                                  > > > > versus distributed across the whole knee. He recommended a high
                                                  > > > tibial
                                                  > > > > osteotomy <http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=A00591>. But I
                                                  > > > > discovered to my relief from my Gyrotonic/Gyrokinesis instructor (not
                                                  > > > my
                                                  > > > > son, he lives 6 hours away but to a Master Trainer in Albany NY), that
                                                  > > > I
                                                  > > > > have asymmetrical thigh/knee/calf muscle development causing me to be
                                                  > > > > bowlegged and walk as if I was. She showed me convincingly that doing
                                                  > > > the
                                                  > > > > exercises she showed that I can lose that bowleggedness just by
                                                  > > > focusing on
                                                  > > > > core symmetry muscle development (that is, developing the inner thigh
                                                  > > > > muscles, inner calf muscles and doing micro-joint, partial weight
                                                  > > > assisted
                                                  > > > > (multiple reps) knee flexions to develop the leg symmetrically with
                                                  > > > > healthier, more capable knees.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > She (my trainer) showed me that my lower back muscles are
                                                  > > > asymmetrically
                                                  > > > > developed which also affects the hiking gait too.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Last, Gyrotonics' key machine (formerly called the "Pulley Tower" now
                                                  > > > > called the "Cobra") allows one to do micro-joint exercising which
                                                  > > > according
                                                  > > > > to the medical research cited in "Saving my
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > Knees<http://www.amazon.com/Saving-My-Knees-Doctors-ebook/dp/B004JHYTEI/\
                                                  > > > ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1349973503&sr=8-1&keywords=saving+my+knees>"
                                                  > > > > by Richard Bedard can and has (with him) grow new meniscus. It
                                                  > > > involves
                                                  > > > > partial-weight assisted knee exercises with many reps (such as 100-200
                                                  > > > reps
                                                  > > > > per session). Some of the exercises I have been able to jury-rig at
                                                  > > > home a
                                                  > > > > device similar to what Richard Bedard did with his knees (to do
                                                  > > > between
                                                  > > > > Gyrotonic classes). See attached file.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > I know that many (most) group members here have no problems with
                                                  > > > hiking and
                                                  > > > > this may not be of interest (now) to them. But a hiking injury can
                                                  > > > occur
                                                  > > > > (such as I documented my complex torn knee meniscus which happened in
                                                  > > > a
                                                  > > > > Catskill mountain hike 16 months ago) and the above will all of a
                                                  > > > sudden
                                                  > > > > become relevant (I use the physical therapy described above, plus
                                                  > > > > conventional knee/leg workouts able to be done at a YMCA, plus having
                                                  > > > > prolotherapy sessions as also detailed months ago (search our archives
                                                  > > > or
                                                  > > > > see my Google Profile for more about that).
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > By the way, on the topic of "balance" and "flexibility", I attended
                                                  > > > the
                                                  > > > > funeral of my 92 year old uncle and he died because of lacking both,
                                                  > > > he
                                                  > > > > fell walking to the bathroom and broke his hip and died due to
                                                  > > > surgical
                                                  > > > > complications. Had he focused on both, he'd still be alive and well.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Last, Gyrokinesis classes are inexpensive where I live, only $18 per
                                                  > > > hour
                                                  > > > > if a package of 5 hour-long classes are purchased. $20 per single
                                                  > > > class
                                                  > > > > otherwise.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > -------------------------------------------------
                                                  > > > > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
                                                  > > > > links)<https://profiles.google.com/104440166440169700478/about>
                                                  > > > > _
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Roleigh marti124@ wrote:
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > > **
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Approaching 63, I've come to the realization I need to focus on 5
                                                  > > > training
                                                  > > > > > issues in order to continue doing a full JMT hike each summer. My 5
                                                  > > > differ
                                                  > > > > > slightly from this interesting walking methodology. Involve yourself
                                                  > > > in
                                                  > > > > > aerobic, anaerobic, balance, flexibility and core symmetry
                                                  > > > > > development/workouts. I'll post more on these 5 issues later but in
                                                  > > > the
                                                  > > > > > last 6 months I've learned a lot more about what I think is vital
                                                  > > > for
                                                  > > > > > training for a JMT as one gets older. Also, in a side comment to
                                                  > > > Google
                                                  > > > > > Reader Posts, one is limited to so many bytes.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Sent to you by Roleigh via Google Reader:
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > The Five Element Theory of ChiRunning and
                                                  > > > ChiWalking<http://www.chirunning.com/blog/entry/the-five-element-theory-\
                                                  > > > of-chirunning-and-chiwalking#When:15:32:44Z>
                                                  > > > > > via Chi Living Blog <http://www.chirunning.com/blog/> on 10/11/12
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > In Chinese Medicine the study of the elements are the fundamental
                                                  > > > way in
                                                  > > > > > which the human body is analyzed and understood. There are actually
                                                  > > > several
                                                  > > > > > approaches to the study of the elements. The elements to be
                                                  > > > considered can
                                                  > > > > > be: earth, water, fire, air or metal, wood, and sometimes ether.
                                                  > > > For the
                                                  > > > > > purpose of this article we're going to focus on earth as it
                                                  > > > relates to
                                                  > > > > > structure and stability; water as it relates to flowing movement;
                                                  > > > fire as
                                                  > > > > > it relates to work, transformation and energy; air, as it relates to
                                                  > > > > > breathing and "inspiration;" and ether as the power of the
                                                  > > > mind to direct
                                                  > > > > > one's energy or chi.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > In the Chi techniques, various sections of the body are represented
                                                  > > > by
                                                  > > > > > these five elements. Your bones, ligaments and tendons are
                                                  > > > represented by
                                                  > > > > > the element Earth, which creates stability in your body and
                                                  > > > connection to
                                                  > > > > > the earth. Water represents the rotational movement of the pelvis
                                                  > > > which
                                                  > > > > > allows the fluid motion of swinging of your arms and legs. The fire
                                                  > > > element
                                                  > > > > > can be felt in the power and energy of the core muscles. Your core
                                                  > > > is
                                                  > > > > > called the powerhouse, in Pilates – for a good reason. In more
                                                  > > > advanced
                                                  > > > > > levels of ChiRunning® and ChiWalking®, you can use your
                                                  > > > oblique muscles to
                                                  > > > > > create more energy for moving forward. Air feeds fire, so in your
                                                  > > > lungs and
                                                  > > > > > breathing you can see the most important source of energy for the
                                                  > > > body.
                                                  > > > > > Ether is related to your mind and to chi energy. And, though they
                                                  > > > are both
                                                  > > > > > invisible and unmeasurable, they are the most powerful tools you
                                                  > > > have when
                                                  > > > > > it comes to moving your body. When you have a thought and your body
                                                  > > > > > responds immediately, the element of ether is at work, guided by
                                                  > > > your mind
                                                  > > > > > to move your body.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > *Earth*
                                                  > > > > > As you learn the Chi techniques, you start from the ground up with
                                                  > > > good
                                                  > > > > > posture (Earth). This provides your body stable support with every
                                                  > > > stride.
                                                  > > > > > If your posture is not aligned during the support phase of your
                                                  > > > stride
                                                  > > > > > (shoulders, hips and ankles in a straight line) you will rely too
                                                  > > > much on
                                                  > > > > > your muscles to support the weight of your body instead of your
                                                  > > > skeletal
                                                  > > > > > structure. This wastes valuable energy and you'll tire more
                                                  > > > quickly. This
                                                  > > > > > is the first phase of learning the Chi techniques; earth-like
                                                  > > > stability.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > *Water*
                                                  > > > > > As you learn to run with good postural support, the next element to
                                                  > > > > > emulate is Water, which will add some fluidity to your structure.
                                                  > > > This
                                                  > > > > > requires incorporating a level of relaxation into your stride. This
                                                  > > > takes a
                                                  > > > > > lot of practice as most of us tend to hold tension in our pelvis and
                                                  > > > > > shoulders. Many of us try too hard and don't allow the natural
                                                  > > > flow and
                                                  > > > > > flexibility of our body to create smooth, flowing movements. The
                                                  > > > ChiRunning
                                                  > > > > > Body Looseners will make a huge difference as well as Body Sensing
                                                  > > > tension
                                                  > > > > > and learning to release it. Learning to relax is the crucial second
                                                  > > > stage;
                                                  > > > > > water-like fluidity. Water is especially important in the flight
                                                  > > > phase of
                                                  > > > > > your stride, when you want to allow for the greatest stretch and
                                                  > > > range of
                                                  > > > > > motion in your body.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > The element of water is a lot about letting go. As water flows down
                                                  > > > a
                                                  > > > > > mountain and over a waterfall, it does not hold back. In the Chi
                                                  > > > techniques
                                                  > > > > > there is a sense of ease that needs to be developed in order to
                                                  > > > understand
                                                  > > > > > that you do not have to work hard to make movement happen. As you
                                                  > > > learn to
                                                  > > > > > trust the watery aspect of movement, you'll go faster with less
                                                  > > > effort and
                                                  > > > > > reduce injury as well.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > *Fire*
                                                  > > > > > As you progress through these first two stages of your ChiRunning,
                                                  > > > it is
                                                  > > > > > important to keep in mind that until you fully feel the stability of
                                                  > > > earth
                                                  > > > > > and the fluidity of water, there is no point in focusing on the use
                                                  > > > of the
                                                  > > > > > core muscles (fire element) to enhance your movement. If you add
                                                  > > > fire to an
                                                  > > > > > unstable or overly rigid technique, you'll be creating a recipe
                                                  > > > for injury.
                                                  > > > > > Forcing water down a twisted pipe can create a lot of problems.
                                                  > > > However,
                                                  > > > > > once you are moving with these two elements functioning well in our
                                                  > > > body,
                                                  > > > > > adding some heat and some fire can create a lot of power, especially
                                                  > > > by
                                                  > > > > > engaging your obliques. This is an advanced technique described in
                                                  > > > the Chi
                                                  > > > > > Marathon book in Chapter 9 Advanced Techniques, where you use the
                                                  > > > obliques
                                                  > > > > > to drive the pelvis which, in turn, drives the legs. This allows
                                                  > > > you to
                                                  > > > > > "use" your legs for propulsion without using your leg
                                                  > > > muscles.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > *Air*
                                                  > > > > > When your skill with all the Chi techniques is at the stage where
                                                  > > > you can
                                                  > > > > > run comfortably and all of these first three elements are working
                                                  > > > like
                                                  > > > > > clockwork, the next ingredient for your running will be Air. An
                                                  > > > interesting
                                                  > > > > > word associated with the breath is "inspiration" which has a
                                                  > > > double
                                                  > > > > > meaning. The physical definition of inspiration is, to inhale. The
                                                  > > > > > emotional definition is, to be inspired… which is what your
                                                  > > > running or
                                                  > > > > > walking will be.
                                                  > > > > > At this level a practice session begins to feel more like a dance
                                                  > > > than a
                                                  > > > > > workout!
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > *Ether*
                                                  > > > > > The last element to enter into your running or walking is Ether.
                                                  > > > When your
                                                  > > > > > mind and body are integrated, just a thought can create truly
                                                  > > > effortless
                                                  > > > > > movement. In Chinese philosophy, moving and directing the flow of
                                                  > > > ether
                                                  > > > > > through your body is called, Y-Chi which can also be described as
                                                  > > > > > intention, where you direct the movement of your Chi which, in turn
                                                  > > > moves
                                                  > > > > > your body.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > The study of the elements is a great way to get a different kind of
                                                  > > > feel
                                                  > > > > > for the Chi techniques. When you are feeling yourself stable yet
                                                  > > > fluid;
                                                  > > > > > learning to regulate the chi moving through your body; and getting
                                                  > > > to the
                                                  > > > > > place where an idea creates movement … anything is possible.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Things you can do from here:
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > - Subscribe to Chi Living
                                                  > > > Blog<http://www.google.com/reader/view/feed%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.chiliving\
                                                  > > > .com%2Fblog%2Frss%2F?source=email>using
                                                  > > > > > *Google Reader*
                                                  > > > > > - Get started using Google
                                                  > > > Reader<http://www.google.com/reader/?source=email>to easily keep up with
                                                  > > > > > *all your favorite sites*
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Messages in this topic (3)
                                                  > > > ________________________________________________________________________
                                                  > > > ________________________________________________________________________
                                                  > > > 3a. Re: Winter tent
                                                  > > > Posted by: "kneecreak" kneecreak@ kneecreak
                                                  > > > Date: Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:16 pm ((PDT))
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > I am interested in your book. When will it be available? And Where?
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Ralph Alcorn <rbalcorn@> wrote:
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > We did have one issue with the Warmlite. We have the long version. At the
                                                  > > > > time we used in in Torres del Paine, we did not have wind stabilizers.
                                                  > > > > (they are standard in the climbers version). On the last night, we were
                                                  > > > in
                                                  > > > > a large open area, and there was a very strong side wind. Everyone else
                                                  > > > had
                                                  > > > > moved their tents into the lee of a building for shelter, but I could
                                                  > > > > still stand up, so knew the wind wasn't 95 mph, the rating of the tent
                                                  > > > when
                                                  > > > > we bought it. About 5 minutes after we were in the tent, the main pole
                                                  > > > > snapped, and I had to move the tent jury rig a line to a tree from the
                                                  > > > > broken pole to keep the tent up. When we got back, I looked at their
                                                  > > > > website again. They were just putting up a new site, and on the new site,
                                                  > > > > the tent was rated at 65 mph without stabilizers. Stephensons repaired
                                                  > > > the
                                                  > > > > broken pole and hole it poked in the tent at no charge, and added wind
                                                  > > > > stabilizers at my request for a modest charge. I'm quite pleased with the
                                                  > > > > tent, but now I'm a little more cautious about pushing my gear to its
                                                  > > > > limits. We will have a book out on Patagonia and TdP trails,
                                                  > > > > recommendations, etc. probably by the end of the month. You could email
                                                  > > > me
                                                  > > > > off list for more info.
                                                  > > > > -
                                                  > > > > Ralph Alcorn
                                                  > > > > http://www.backpack45.com/camino2.html
                                                  > > > > http://timecheck00.blogspot.com
                                                  > > > > Shepherd Canyon books, Publisher of
                                                  > > > > We're in the Mountains, Not Over the Hill: Tales and Tips from Seasoned
                                                  > > > > Women Backpackers (also in Kindle), and
                                                  > > > > Camino Chronicle: Walking to Santiago (also in Kindle)
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Messages in this topic (20)
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Please strip out "replied-to" text if not necessary to your reply.
                                                  > > > Failure to strip makes it hard for our Daily Digest members to find the
                                                  > > > new postings among the repeats. For the crib sheet to take on JMT:
                                                  > > > http://tinyurl.com/6j6axeq - Prints on 1 sheet all the essential phone
                                                  > > > numbers/addresses you'll want for all services needed on or off the trail.
                                                  > > > We encourage all to join the JohnMuirTrail_Sidebar Yahoo Group, just send a
                                                  > > > blank email to:
                                                  > > > JohnMuirTrail_Sidebar-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --
                                                  > > Ralph Alcorn
                                                  > > http://www.backpack45.com/camino2.html
                                                  > > http://timecheck00.blogspot.com
                                                  > > Shepherd Canyon books, Publisher of
                                                  > > We're in the Mountains, Not Over the Hill: Tales and Tips from Seasoned
                                                  > > Women Backpackers (also in Kindle), and
                                                  > > Camino Chronicle: Walking to Santiago (also in Kindle)
                                                  > >
                                                  >
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