Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Creating the John Muir Trail Association

Expand Messages
  • Roleigh Martin
    We need to change the subject (title) for this thread. I have an interest but not in leading the effort as I don t have experience in such. Here is the
    Message 1 of 27 , Aug 31, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      We need to change the subject (title) for this thread.

      I have an interest but not in leading the effort as I don't have experience in such. 

      Here is the strongest plus I know for creating such an association -- google does not like to give links to a Yahoo Group for its prominent results.  This group has compiled more research files and links and discussion on the JMT than all other web sites (if not combined), yet only about 15% of the people I met on the JMT this year has heard of the group.  Yet if you type in "John Muir Trail" in Google, links to our sites are very far down the list.

      If we created an association, we'd have more prominence if we moved our material to a web site with good forum software, etc.  Or maybe we could keep the Yahoo Group as the forum for the association and have the files and links on the Association web page.




      -------------------------------------------------
      Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
      _




      On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 7:54 PM, charliepolecat <kennethjessett@...> wrote:
       

      If there is an interest in creating the John Muir Trail Association, we could form a steering committee to get moving with it.

      I don't live anywhere near it, but I'll put my name forward to help get it started.

      Ken.


    • John Ladd
      Sorry. When I made my comment I hadn t seen Roleigh s suggestion to change the thread title. To see the prior discussion of a JMT Association go here:
      Message 2 of 27 , Aug 31, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Sorry. When I made my comment I hadn't seen Roleigh's suggestion to change the thread title.

        To see the prior discussion of a JMT Association go here:


        I think further discussion of the topic should be in response to this message, or Roleigh's preceding one.

        John Curran Ladd
        1616 Castro Street
        San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
        415-648-9279

      • Herb
        To continue this discussion, I agree that forming a non-profit is a laborious task--it can easily take 25-40 hours to complete the applications and respond to
        Message 3 of 27 , Sep 2, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          To continue this discussion, I agree that forming a non-profit is a laborious task--it can easily take 25-40 hours to complete the applications and respond to inquiries. But ironically, it is easier to complete the application for 501(c)(3) status BEFORE you start fully operating than after. Frankly, it is a far simpler process to estimate/guess what you are going to do than to track what you have already done. Having non-profit status will of course allow the organization to receive tax deductible gifts, or apply for grants if there are grant funds available. The tradeoff is the time costs to obtain nonprofit status and maintain it, as well as certain operating restrictions.

          I am willing to organize a volunteer committee to investigate the feasibility of creating a JMT Association. The committee would consider what a JMT Association might do and what is the appropriate entity to accomplish those goals. I propose that the meetings of this exploratory committee take place via email/telephone conference so that proximity to the trail will not be a barrier to participation.

          Please email me offline if you are interested in serving on such an exploratory committee.

          Herb

          --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...> wrote:
          >
          > We need to change the subject (title) for this thread.
          >
          > I have an interest but not in leading the effort as I don't have experience
          > in such.
          >
          > Here is the strongest plus I know for creating such an association --
          > google does not like to give links to a Yahoo Group for its prominent
          > results. This group has compiled more research files and links and
          > discussion on the JMT than all other web sites (if not combined), yet only
          > about 15% of the people I met on the JMT this year has heard of the group.
          > Yet if you type in "John Muir Trail" in Google, links to our sites are very
          > far down the list.
          >
          > If we created an association, we'd have more prominence if we moved our
          > material to a web site with good forum software, etc. Or maybe we could
          > keep the Yahoo Group as the forum for the association and have the files
          > and links on the Association web page.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > -------------------------------------------------
          > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
          > links)<https://profiles.google.com/104440166440169700478/about>
          > _
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 7:54 PM, charliepolecat <
          > kennethjessett@...> wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > > If there is an interest in creating the John Muir Trail Association, we
          > > could form a steering committee to get moving with it.
          > >
          > > I don't live anywhere near it, but I'll put my name forward to help get it
          > > started.
          > >
          > > Ken.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
        • Roleigh Martin
          Another thread link to include - it has John s comment on his own experience in 501c(3)s. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johnmuirtrail/message/25100 ... Visit
          Message 4 of 27 , Sep 2, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Another thread link to include - it has John's comment on his own experience in 501c(3)s.

            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johnmuirtrail/message/25100 
            -------------------------------------------------
            Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
            _




            On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 11:09 PM, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:
             

            Sorry. When I made my comment I hadn't seen Roleigh's suggestion to change the thread title.


            To see the prior discussion of a JMT Association go here:


            I think further discussion of the topic should be in response to this message, or Roleigh's preceding one.

            John Curran Ladd
            1616 Castro Street
            San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
            415-648-9279


          • brink_nathan
            I don t know about putting together an association or anything like that, but I ve previously offered to build a legitimate website for the group. My offer
            Message 5 of 27 , Sep 2, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              I don't know about putting together an association or anything like that, but I've previously offered to build a legitimate website for the group.

              My offer still stands.

              --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...> wrote:
              >
              > We need to change the subject (title) for this thread.
              >
              > I have an interest but not in leading the effort as I don't have experience
              > in such.
              >
              > Here is the strongest plus I know for creating such an association --
              > google does not like to give links to a Yahoo Group for its prominent
              > results. This group has compiled more research files and links and
              > discussion on the JMT than all other web sites (if not combined), yet only
              > about 15% of the people I met on the JMT this year has heard of the group.
              > Yet if you type in "John Muir Trail" in Google, links to our sites are very
              > far down the list.
              >
              > If we created an association, we'd have more prominence if we moved our
              > material to a web site with good forum software, etc. Or maybe we could
              > keep the Yahoo Group as the forum for the association and have the files
              > and links on the Association web page.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > -------------------------------------------------
              > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
              > links)<https://profiles.google.com/104440166440169700478/about>
              > _
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 7:54 PM, charliepolecat <
              > kennethjessett@...> wrote:
              >
              > > **
              > >
              > >
              > > If there is an interest in creating the John Muir Trail Association, we
              > > could form a steering committee to get moving with it.
              > >
              > > I don't live anywhere near it, but I'll put my name forward to help get it
              > > started.
              > >
              > > Ken.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Herb
              Nathan-- That sounds great, thanks for the offer. A proper website dedicated to the JMT is overdue. We have great info in our files already, along with the
              Message 6 of 27 , Sep 3, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Nathan--

                That sounds great, thanks for the offer. A proper website dedicated to the JMT is overdue. We have great info in our files already, along with the collective wisdom of hundreds who have walked the trail. A worthy goal of a JMT Association is to raise the visiblity of this resource and draw even greater participation.

                Herb

                --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "brink_nathan" <brink_nathan@...> wrote:
                >
                > I don't know about putting together an association or anything like that, but I've previously offered to build a legitimate website for the group.
                >
                > My offer still stands.
                >
                > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@> wrote:
                > >
                > > We need to change the subject (title) for this thread.
                > >
                > > I have an interest but not in leading the effort as I don't have experience
                > > in such.
                > >
                > > Here is the strongest plus I know for creating such an association --
                > > google does not like to give links to a Yahoo Group for its prominent
                > > results. This group has compiled more research files and links and
                > > discussion on the JMT than all other web sites (if not combined), yet only
                > > about 15% of the people I met on the JMT this year has heard of the group.
                > > Yet if you type in "John Muir Trail" in Google, links to our sites are very
                > > far down the list.
                > >
                > > If we created an association, we'd have more prominence if we moved our
                > > material to a web site with good forum software, etc. Or maybe we could
                > > keep the Yahoo Group as the forum for the association and have the files
                > > and links on the Association web page.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > -------------------------------------------------
                > > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
                > > links)<https://profiles.google.com/104440166440169700478/about>
                > > _
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 7:54 PM, charliepolecat <
                > > kennethjessett@> wrote:
                > >
                > > > **
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > If there is an interest in creating the John Muir Trail Association, we
                > > > could form a steering committee to get moving with it.
                > > >
                > > > I don't live anywhere near it, but I'll put my name forward to help get it
                > > > started.
                > > >
                > > > Ken.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Ralph Alcorn
                I instinctively resist the mailings, fund drives, etc of yet another trail organization unless it really fills a void. I m a member of quite a few already.
                Message 7 of 27 , Sep 3, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  I instinctively resist the mailings, fund drives, etc of yet another trail organization unless it really fills a void. I'm a member of quite a few already. Compared to most long trails, the JMT is totally enclosed in federal lands, and is an object of pride for both the NPS and the USFS. I think the PCTA would be willing to beef up their JMT info if there were more interest. They already have a JMT section. They just need to add a Forum category to point to the Yahoo JMT group.

                  In the interests of full disclosure, we do have a JMT web page, but that is not driving my objection here.
                  --
                  Ralph Alcorn
                  http://www.backpack45.com/camino2.html
                  http://timecheck00.blogspot.com
                  Shepherd Canyon books, Publisher of
                  We're in the Mountains, Not Over the Hill: Tales and Tips from Seasoned Women Backpackers (also in Kindle), and
                  Camino Chronicle: Walking to Santiago (also in Kindle)


                • John Ladd
                  ... Assuming Ralph is right about this, I think working with PCTA to improve their JMT section would be a great way to go. I d hate to see a JMTA be a solution
                  Message 8 of 27 , Sep 3, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Ralph Alcorn <rbalcorn@...> wrote:
                    I think the PCTA would be willing to beef up their JMT info if there were more interest. They already have a JMT section.

                    Assuming Ralph is right about this, I think working with PCTA to improve their JMT section would be a great way to go.

                    I'd hate to see a JMTA be a solution in search of a problem.

                    John Curran Ladd
                    1616 Castro Street
                    San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                    415-648-9279



                  • Roleigh Martin
                    Ralph, you have a very strong and convincing point here. John Ladd, John Dittli, Ned, others? What do you think? Perhaps a jointly-written letter to the
                    Message 9 of 27 , Sep 3, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Ralph, you have a very strong and convincing point here.  John Ladd, John Dittli, Ned, others?  What do you think?  Perhaps a jointly-written letter to the PCTA organization might achieve what we need.
                      -------------------------------------------------
                      Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
                      _


                      On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Ralph Alcorn <rbalcorn@...> wrote:
                       

                      I instinctively resist the mailings, fund drives, etc of yet another trail organization unless it really fills a void. I'm a member of quite a few already. Compared to most long trails, the JMT is totally enclosed in federal lands, and is an object of pride for both the NPS and the USFS. I think the PCTA would be willing to beef up their JMT info if there were more interest. They already have a JMT section. They just need to add a Forum category to point to the Yahoo JMT group.

                      In the interests of full disclosure, we do have a JMT web page, but that is not driving my objection here.
                      --
                      Ralph Alcorn
                      http://www.backpack45.com/camino2.html
                      http://timecheck00.blogspot.com
                      Shepherd Canyon books, Publisher of
                      We're in the Mountains, Not Over the Hill: Tales and Tips from Seasoned Women Backpackers (also in Kindle), and
                      Camino Chronicle: Walking to Santiago (also in Kindle)



                    • charliepolecat
                      I think the PCTA would be willing to beef up their JMT info if there were more interest. They already have a JMT section.. That won t work. General Motors
                      Message 10 of 27 , Sep 3, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        "I think the PCTA would be willing to beef up their JMT info if there were more interest. They already have a JMT section.."

                        That won't work. General Motors did something similar with their divisions and most of those disappeared through neglect.

                        As far as I'm concerned, none of the other JMT sites have much to offer and none seem interested in responding to queries, I know, I've tried and met a wall of silence.

                        Commercial sites breed opportunism, and we need an association that is entirely for the benefit of its members, and not just to sell a book.

                        Ken.

                        (Hopefully, a founding member of the John Muir Trail Association.)
                      • Roleigh Martin
                        What if the PCTA created a chapter of the same people who d start a JMT Association whose purpose would be to see that the JMT chapter of the PCTA gets as much
                        Message 11 of 27 , Sep 3, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          What if the PCTA created a chapter of the same people who'd start a JMT Association whose purpose would be to see that the JMT chapter of the PCTA gets as much focus if not more than if they were on their own.  I'm thinking of the Adirondack Mountain Club (adk.org) which has various chapters, including it's biggest chapter, the Albany chapter of the ADK.  Similarly, the Appalachian Mountain Club has various state chapters, which have strong chapters.


                          -------------------------------------------------
                          Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
                          _




                          On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 7:57 PM, charliepolecat <kennethjessett@...> wrote:
                           

                          "I think the PCTA would be willing to beef up their JMT info if there were more interest. They already have a JMT section.."

                          That won't work. General Motors did something similar with their divisions and most of those disappeared through neglect.

                          As far as I'm concerned, none of the other JMT sites have much to offer and none seem interested in responding to queries, I know, I've tried and met a wall of silence.

                          Commercial sites breed opportunism, and we need an association that is entirely for the benefit of its members, and not just to sell a book.

                          Ken.

                          (Hopefully, a founding member of the John Muir Trail Association.)


                        • Don Amundson
                          John-It s not often we agree but you ve hit the nail on the head here. What problem are we hoping to solve with a JMT association? This whole discussion grew
                          Message 12 of 27 , Sep 3, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            John-It's not often we agree but you've hit the nail on the head here.  What problem are we hoping to solve with a JMT association?  This whole discussion grew from a question about how isolated the trail is to a number crunching issue and now is becoming the elephant in the living room. The JMT isn't exactly suffering from the issues common with trails that depend on organizations to maintain them. There is certainly enough information currently available about the trail and how to plan for hiking it to keep someone in informational overload for far longer than they may care for.  


                            On Sep 3, 2012, at 4:14 PM, "John Ladd" <johnladd@...> wrote:

                             
                            I'd hate to see a JMTA be a solution in search of a problem.

                            John Curran Ladd
                            1616 Castro Street
                            San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                            415-648-9279



                          • Inga Aksamit
                            I m not sure I have an opinion on whether we need a separate group or to tag onto the PCT site, but I am always sad when someone says, I m starting the JMT
                            Message 13 of 27 , Sep 4, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I'm not sure I have an opinion on whether we need a separate group or to tag onto the PCT site, but I am always sad when someone says, "I'm starting the JMT next week and just discovered this group" which tells me it's not that easy to find. When you search for PCT the PCTA link comes up first. When you search fro JMT this Yahoo group come up near the bottom of the first page, under the PCTA and a bunch of other links. Whatever we do it would be nice if the PCTA JMT page could provide a prominent link to the Yahoo group. This group has such good info that my biggest goal would be to make sure people can find it so they can benefit. 

                              Inga Aksamit
                              Mobile: 415-470-1812
                              Email: Iaksamit@...
                              Twitter.com/IngaAksamit
                              About Me: http://about.me/IngasAdventures
                            • Ralph Alcorn
                              Some more thoughts, just to muddy the water a little. I ve been doing this a long time - AOL, Compuserve, listservs, Yahoo Groups, Facebook. I m quite involved
                              Message 14 of 27 , Sep 4, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Some more thoughts, just to muddy the water a little. I've been doing this a long time - AOL, Compuserve, listservs, Yahoo Groups, Facebook. I'm quite involved with Camino de Santiago hiking. In terms of US hikers, they have many fewer hikers than the JMT. I do have a point here. When I first got involved, about 14 years ago, the Camino activity was all on listservs. My email was on Compuserve. Then the activity moved to groups such as this, and most was on one group, though  one listserv survived. Compuserve died as a significant entity, as did AOL. Over the last year almost all that Camino activity move to one individual's forum which was quite interactive, similar to postholer.com. In the last 6 to 8 months the American Pilgrims Group on Facebook has become very active. For example, you can ask about hiking poles and get a dozen responses the same day, possibly with images.

                                There is also a John Muir Trail Facebook Group:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/2240988980/  It has 1100+ members, but not much activity. If all the Yahoo group members were also there, I think the Yahoo activity would drop to nil. You don't have to be Facebook Friends to be in a Facebook Group, so it allows you to share things of common interest with someone who might otherwise be quite obnoxious.

                                I enjoy doing our website, updating JMT records, etc., and I do reply to anyone who manages to find our email in all that stuff on our JMT page, but I think Yahoo Groups, and even websites are losing their value, sort of fading from existence. People are moving towards a more immediate response, with pictures. There is still a place for online journals, i.e. trailjournals.com and postholer.com but the momentum is now towards Facebook. Google+ is better, but I think, too  late. Moving to PCTA or a website would be a sidestep, not progress.

                                --
                                Ralph Alcorn
                                http://www.backpack45.com/camino2.html
                                http://timecheck00.blogspot.com
                                Shepherd Canyon books, Publisher of
                                We're in the Mountains, Not Over the Hill: Tales and Tips from Seasoned Women Backpackers (also in Kindle), and
                                Camino Chronicle: Walking to Santiago (also in Kindle)


                              • Roleigh Martin
                                What I dislike about Facebook is that one can t organize files into folder trees and there is nothing like a folder tree of links like what exists on Yahoo.
                                Message 15 of 27 , Sep 4, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  What I dislike about Facebook is that one can't organize files into folder trees and there is nothing like a folder tree of links like what exists on Yahoo.  There is no folder tree in photos either, just albums (only one dimensional deep, right)?  Or am I mistaken about Facebook?  There is no daily digest option for notifications either.  RSS Subscription is not supported for postings.  

                                  I think what we need is something besides Yahoo to get Google to show us higher in results.  Beefing up PCTA's JMT web pages would be immensely helpful.  Web pages is what seems to drive Google Results.  Especially if we can put our files in an organized way on such a web server.

                                  I already annually donate to the PCTA.  Maybe we can get enough donations to get a decent web space on the PCTA to do this.

                                  I very much agree with Inga.  The problem is not with the JMT trail, it's that so many are doing the JMT with hardly any more information than what is in the TH map package or Eric's guide.  I saw so many JMT hikers who needed the information in the JMT crib sheet but didn't have one (they ended up photographing my crib sheet), they were doing a premature exit off the trail and needed to know shuttle services, etc., that support that exit option.

                                  I'm looking into getting the JMT Cribsheet published on waterproof, tearproof paper and having it sold on Amazon.com -- that should help widen knowledge of this group too.

                                  -------------------------------------------------
                                  Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
                                  _




                                  On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 2:33 PM, Ralph Alcorn <rbalcorn@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  Some more thoughts, just to muddy the water a little. I've been doing this a long time - AOL, Compuserve, listservs, Yahoo Groups, Facebook. I'm quite involved with Camino de Santiago hiking. In terms of US hikers, they have many fewer hikers than the JMT. I do have a point here. When I first got involved, about 14 years ago, the Camino activity was all on listservs. My email was on Compuserve. Then the activity moved to groups such as this, and most was on one group, though  one listserv survived. Compuserve died as a significant entity, as did AOL. Over the last year almost all that Camino activity move to one individual's forum which was quite interactive, similar to postholer.com. In the last 6 to 8 months the American Pilgrims Group on Facebook has become very active. For example, you can ask about hiking poles and get a dozen responses the same day, possibly with images.


                                  There is also a John Muir Trail Facebook Group:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/2240988980/  It has 1100+ members, but not much activity. If all the Yahoo group members were also there, I think the Yahoo activity would drop to nil. You don't have to be Facebook Friends to be in a Facebook Group, so it allows you to share things of common interest with someone who might otherwise be quite obnoxious.

                                  I enjoy doing our website, updating JMT records, etc., and I do reply to anyone who manages to find our email in all that stuff on our JMT page, but I think Yahoo Groups, and even websites are losing their value, sort of fading from existence. People are moving towards a more immediate response, with pictures. There is still a place for online journals, i.e. trailjournals.com and postholer.com but the momentum is now towards Facebook. Google+ is better, but I think, too  late. Moving to PCTA or a website would be a sidestep, not progress.


                                  --
                                  Ralph Alcorn
                                  http://www.backpack45.com/camino2.html
                                  http://timecheck00.blogspot.com
                                  Shepherd Canyon books, Publisher of
                                  We're in the Mountains, Not Over the Hill: Tales and Tips from Seasoned Women Backpackers (also in Kindle), and
                                  Camino Chronicle: Walking to Santiago (also in Kindle)



                                • John Ladd
                                  ... I agree. I ve been trying, with some success, to improve our Google pagerank. We turn up much higher now than we did 2 years ago and if you search for a
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Sep 4, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 11:27 AM, Inga Aksamit <Iaksamit@...> wrote:
                                    ... This group has such good info that my biggest goal would be to make sure people can find it so they can benefit. 

                                    I agree. I've been trying, with some success, to improve our Google pagerank.  We turn up much higher now than we did 2 years ago and if you search for a particular topic like this

                                    "john muir trail" crocs
                                    john muir trail MTR
                                    "john muir trail" group

                                    we are often top or very near it.  When I search just "John Muir Trail" we are on the first page but below many other sites (we were 8th today).  Note that Google adjusts rank by the individual searcher, so your results may differ

                                    If any of you have your own website, esp. a highranked one (John Dittli?), a link to us would move us up in Google ranking. 

                                    Best link to use is this one


                                    or, if you  would rather link to our Links collection


                                    Note that a Yahoo search ranks us even lower than Google, so I don't buy the theory that Google is downranking us intentionally.
                                     
                                    Part of my concern about a separate webpage for a JMTA is that, to the extent we split our traffic between two sites, our pagerank would probably suffer.

                                    John Ladd
                                  • John Ladd
                                    ... I m a member of both groups. I find the FB group good for pictures and socializing and for tidbits (e.g., favorite lake on the JMT), but the format is not
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Sep 4, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Ralph Alcorn <rbalcorn@...> wrote:
                                      There is also a John Muir Trail Facebook Group:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/2240988980/  It has 1100+ members, but not much activity. If all the Yahoo group members were also there, I think the Yahoo activity would drop to nil.

                                      I'm a member of both groups. I find the FB group good for pictures and socializing and for tidbits (e.g., favorite lake on the JMT), but the format is not good for any detailed exploration of a more complicated issue.  And the lack of a Links feature is a serious problem.  Both groups have about the same number of members, but I think our content is way better.  And Ralph is right about the level of activity.  I probably get 20 postings on the Yahoo group for every one on FB.

                                      John
                                    • Roleigh Martin
                                      To keep up the point-counterpoint discussion, one problem remains even if we went to the top of Google Results. Public perception of Yahoo Groups is probably
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Sep 4, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        To keep up the point-counterpoint discussion, one problem remains even if we went to the top of Google Results.  Public perception of Yahoo Groups is probably not that favorable.  How many Yahoo Groups have extensive file libraries, link libraries?  Very, very few.  I  belong to many Yahoo Groups and our group is the exception to the rule.
                                        -------------------------------------------------
                                        Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
                                        _




                                        On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 2:55 PM, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:
                                         

                                        On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 11:27 AM, Inga Aksamit <Iaksamit@...> wrote:
                                        ... This group has such good info that my biggest goal would be to make sure people can find it so they can benefit. 

                                        I agree. I've been trying, with some success, to improve our Google pagerank.  We turn up much higher now than we did 2 years ago and if you search for a particular topic like this

                                        "john muir trail" crocs
                                        john muir trail MTR
                                        "john muir trail" group

                                        we are often top or very near it.  When I search just "John Muir Trail" we are on the first page but below many other sites (we were 8th today).  Note that Google adjusts rank by the individual searcher, so your results may differ

                                        If any of you have your own website, esp. a highranked one (John Dittli?), a link to us would move us up in Google ranking. 

                                        Best link to use is this one


                                        or, if you  would rather link to our Links collection


                                        Note that a Yahoo search ranks us even lower than Google, so I don't buy the theory that Google is downranking us intentionally.
                                         
                                        Part of my concern about a separate webpage for a JMTA is that, to the extent we split our traffic between two sites, our pagerank would probably suffer.

                                        John Ladd


                                      • Herb
                                        Getting back to the theme of the thread, it may be we are putting the cart before the horse to say that there is or is not a need for a JMT Associatiib. I
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Sep 4, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Getting back to the theme of the thread, it may be we are putting the cart before the horse to say that there is or is not a need for a JMT Associatiib. I think it would be helpful to solicit input from managing agencies to see if there is some benefit a JMT user-group could bring to administration efforts. Bringing visibility to a JMT website not only helps with logistics, it is a means to promote better trail ethics among newer hikers. It could be a means for managing agencies to dispese trail info to a large group of affected hikers quickly.

                                          And what about trail policies? Would an organized user-group have greater influence on future management polices? The recent discussion regarding potential regulation of packers suggests that current polices can be subject to change.

                                          I think it is worth assembling a small group to investigate if there are ways formally or informally in which organized volunteers might improve use and access to the JMT.

                                          Herb
                                        • trail2nowhere
                                          Hi folks, Getting on this a little late and I haven t read everything....but. There is awesome organization called the PCTA that has been building and
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Sep 5, 2012
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Hi folks,

                                            Getting on this a little late and I haven't read everything....but. There is awesome organization called the PCTA that has been building and maintaining the JMT/PCT trail system for quite a very long time with excellent trail volunteer system and staff. They are a great group and your efforts are best served to work with them since they already have the MOU and great working agreement with the US Govt. Starting a separate JMTA would quite frankly make no sense since the JMT and the PCT are essentially the same except the the small sections that we all know. The individuals involved are personal friends of mine and they care very deeply about how all the different interagency issues have to work together to make the JMT work as well as it does. It is much harder than you would imagine to get all of these different govt agencies to work together and the people that pull it off have my highest regard. They are heros to me. I.e. do you ever wonder why you can get one permit and hike through so many different parks and nat'l forests seemlessly? Do you ever wonder why we don't see mountain bikes on the JMT even though the mtn bike assoc has been lobbying for it for along time? The answer is that there are great people in the right places that understand the bigger issues and have the reseources to make the right thing happen most of the time. The JMT is part of a much greater system that needs to be appreciated.

                                            Check it out http://www.pcta.org/ and please give generously to protect this treasure we have.

                                            Jack



                                            --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Herb" <hstroh@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Getting back to the theme of the thread, it may be we are putting the cart before the horse to say that there is or is not a need for a JMT Associatiib. I think it would be helpful to solicit input from managing agencies to see if there is some benefit a JMT user-group could bring to administration efforts. Bringing visibility to a JMT website not only helps with logistics, it is a means to promote better trail ethics among newer hikers. It could be a means for managing agencies to dispese trail info to a large group of affected hikers quickly.
                                            >
                                            > And what about trail policies? Would an organized user-group have greater influence on future management polices? The recent discussion regarding potential regulation of packers suggests that current polices can be subject to change.
                                            >
                                            > I think it is worth assembling a small group to investigate if there are ways formally or informally in which organized volunteers might improve use and access to the JMT.
                                            >
                                            > Herb
                                            >
                                          • John
                                            Interesting topic. For me the question would be Why do we need a JMTA? . In answering that question, if you find the need not being addressed by existing
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Sep 5, 2012
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Interesting topic. For me the question would be "Why do we need a JMTA?". In answering that question, if you find the "need" not being addressed by existing agencies and organizations, then perhaps there would be a purpose. If not a stand alone, then perhaps a stronger JMT arm of the PCTA.

                                              The PCTA is indeed a great group, but I'm not sure that they currently deal with the sections that I would consider have the biggest issues on the JMT: YV to TM and Crabtree to WP (signing, permits, numbers of hikers, etc) simply due to the fact these segments aren't on the PCT.

                                              On a much smaller scale, there is the section of JMT between Reds Meadow and Red Cones that is also off the PCT. This trail is very poorly signed and thereby, rarely walked by JMT thru hikers. I'm guessing it would be of little concern of the PCTA. 

                                              I'm not saying that there is necessarily a need for a JMTA, just some food for thought.

                                              JD
                                              Walk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trail




                                              --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > We need to change the subject (title) for this thread.
                                              >
                                              > I have an interest but not in leading the effort as I don't have experience
                                              > in such.
                                              >
                                              > Here is the strongest plus I know for creating such an association --
                                              > google does not like to give links to a Yahoo Group for its prominent
                                              > results. This group has compiled more research files and links and
                                              > discussion on the JMT than all other web sites (if not combined), yet only
                                              > about 15% of the people I met on the JMT this year has heard of the group.
                                              > Yet if you type in "John Muir Trail" in Google, links to our sites are very
                                              > far down the list.
                                              >
                                              > If we created an association, we'd have more prominence if we moved our
                                              > material to a web site with good forum software, etc. Or maybe we could
                                              > keep the Yahoo Group as the forum for the association and have the files
                                              > and links on the Association web page.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > -------------------------------------------------
                                              > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
                                              > links)<https://profiles.google.com/104440166440169700478/about>
                                              > _
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 7:54 PM, charliepolecat <
                                              > kennethjessett@... wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > **
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > If there is an interest in creating the John Muir Trail Association, we
                                              > > could form a steering committee to get moving with it.
                                              > >
                                              > > I don't live anywhere near it, but I'll put my name forward to help get it
                                              > > started.
                                              > >
                                              > > Ken.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                            • Dan C. aka Thumper
                                              One area I believe the JMT community would benefit is if the PCTA would be able to expand and take on the Jmt thru-hike permit process. They currently have
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Sep 5, 2012
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                One area I believe the JMT community would benefit is if the PCTA would be able to expand and take on the Jmt thru-hike permit process. They currently have permit issuing authority for the PCT including Whitney endorsements. If they could get the US Park and Forest Services to agree in allowing them to issue JMT thru-hike permits it would be a much smoother process, take an admin load off the Park Service, and increase the patronage of the PCTA. This would be a win-win for all.

                                                Thumper



                                                ---- Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...> wrote:
                                                > To keep up the point-counterpoint discussion, one problem remains even if
                                                > we went to the top of Google Results. Public perception of Yahoo Groups is
                                                > probably not that favorable. How many Yahoo Groups have extensive file
                                                > libraries, link libraries? Very, very few. I belong to many Yahoo Groups
                                                > and our group is the exception to the rule.
                                                > -------------------------------------------------
                                                > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
                                                > links)<https://profiles.google.com/104440166440169700478/about>
                                                > _
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 2:55 PM, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > **
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 11:27 AM, Inga Aksamit <Iaksamit@...> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > >> ... This group has such good info that my biggest goal would be to *make
                                                > >> sure people can find it* so they can benefit.
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > I agree. I've been trying, with some success, to improve our Google
                                                > > pagerank. We turn up much higher now than we did 2 years ago and if you
                                                > > search for a particular topic like this
                                                > >
                                                > > "john muir trail" crocs
                                                > > john muir trail MTR
                                                > > "john muir trail" group
                                                > >
                                                > > we are often top or very near it. When I search just "John Muir Trail" we
                                                > > are on the first page but below many other sites (we were 8th today). Note
                                                > > that Google adjusts rank by the individual searcher, so your results may
                                                > > differ
                                                > >
                                                > > If any of you have your own website, esp. a highranked one (John Dittli?),
                                                > > *a link to us would move us up in Google ranking. *
                                                > >
                                                > > Best link to use is this one
                                                > >
                                                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johnmuirtrail/
                                                > >
                                                > > or, if you would rather link to our Links collection
                                                > >
                                                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johnmuirtrail/links
                                                > >
                                                > > Note that a Yahoo search ranks us even lower than Google, so I don't buy
                                                > > the theory that Google is downranking us intentionally.
                                                > >
                                                > > Part of my concern about a separate webpage for a JMTA is that, to the
                                                > > extent we split our traffic between two sites, our pagerank would probably
                                                > > suffer.
                                                > >
                                                > > John Ladd
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                              • Don Amundson
                                                John-It s not often we agree but you ve hit the nail on the head here. What problem are we hoping to solve with a JMT association? This whole discussion grew
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Sep 7, 2012
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  John-It's not often we agree but you've hit the nail on the head here.  What problem are we hoping to solve with a JMT association?  This whole discussion grew from a question about how isolated the trail is to a number crunching issue. The JMT isn't suffering from the issues common with trails that depend on organizations to maintain them. 


                                                  On Sep 3, 2012, at 4:14 PM, "John Ladd" <johnladd@...> wrote:

                                                   

                                                  On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Ralph Alcorn <rbalcorn@...> wrote:

                                                  I think the PCTA would be willing to beef up their JMT info if there were more interest. They already have a JMT section.

                                                  Assuming Ralph is right about this, I think working with PCTA to improve their JMT section would be a great way to go.

                                                  I'd hate to see a JMTA be a solution in search of a problem.

                                                  John Curran Ladd
                                                  1616 Castro Street
                                                  San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                                                  415-648-9279



                                                • Ed Rodriguez
                                                  My 4 cents, from what I read on this is from my view point is how can we help other with the information people with all the information needed to hike the
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Sep 11, 2012
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    My 4 cents, from what I read on this is from my view point is how can we help other with the information people with all the information needed to hike the JMT. I think a web page with all the info needed in a format that will be easy to click on what a person wanted more information on the trail. Not sure of all the details but am thinking of setting up an domain name (which will cost some money to maintain each year). Either way, I seen so many people on the trail that go in with the best intention only to fall short on their trip because of poor planing and miss information.
                                                     
                                                    Ed Rodriguez
                                                    Roseville, CA



                                                    Place one foot in front of the other keeping your eyes on the horizon   

                                                    From: Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...>
                                                    To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 5:26 PM
                                                    Subject: [John Muir Trail] Creating the John Muir Trail Association

                                                     
                                                    We need to change the subject (title) for this thread.

                                                    I have an interest but not in leading the effort as I don't have experience in such. 

                                                    Here is the strongest plus I know for creating such an association -- google does not like to give links to a Yahoo Group for its prominent results.  This group has compiled more research files and links and discussion on the JMT than all other web sites (if not combined), yet only about 15% of the people I met on the JMT this year has heard of the group.  Yet if you type in "John Muir Trail" in Google, links to our sites are very far down the list.

                                                    If we created an association, we'd have more prominence if we moved our material to a web site with good forum software, etc.  Or maybe we could keep the Yahoo Group as the forum for the association and have the files and links on the Association web page.




                                                    -------------------------------------------------
                                                    Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research links)
                                                    _




                                                    On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 7:54 PM, charliepolecat <kennethjessett@...> wrote:
                                                     
                                                    If there is an interest in creating the John Muir Trail Association, we could form a steering committee to get moving with it.

                                                    I don't live anywhere near it, but I'll put my name forward to help get it started.

                                                    Ken.




                                                  • brink_nathan
                                                    For what it s worth, I own the domain jmt-talk.com, as I ve been wanting to put together a site with a better format that Yahoo Groups for a while now. Just
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Sep 11, 2012
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      For what it's worth, I own the domain jmt-talk.com, as I've been wanting to put together a site with a better format that Yahoo Groups for a while now. Just been busy with work lately.

                                                      --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Ed Rodriguez <ed_rodriguez52@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > My 4 cents, from what I read on this is from my view point is how can we help other with the information people with all the information needed to hike the JMT. I think a web page with all the info needed in a format that will be easy to click on what a person wanted more information on the trail. Not sure of all the details but am thinking of setting up an domain name (which will cost some money to maintain each year). Either way, I seen so many people on the trail that go in with the best intention only to fall short on their trip because of poor planing and miss information.
                                                      >  
                                                      > Ed Rodriguez
                                                      > Roseville, CA
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Place one foot in front of the other keeping your eyes on the horizon   
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > ________________________________
                                                      > From: Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...>
                                                      > To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 5:26 PM
                                                      > Subject: [John Muir Trail] Creating the John Muir Trail Association
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >  
                                                      > We need to change the subject (title) for this thread.
                                                      >
                                                      > I have an interest but not in leading the effort as I don't have experience in such. 
                                                      >
                                                      > Here is the strongest plus I know for creating such an association -- google does not like to give links to a Yahoo Group for its prominent results.  This group has compiled more research files and links and discussion on the JMT than all other web sites (if not combined), yet only about 15% of the people I met on the JMT this year has heard of the group.  Yet if you type in "John Muir Trail" in Google, links to our sites are very far down the list.
                                                      >
                                                      > If we created an association, we'd have more prominence if we moved our material to a web site with good forum software, etc.  Or maybe we could keep the Yahoo Group as the forum for the association and have the files and links on the Association web page.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > -------------------------------------------------
                                                      > Visit my Google Profile(lots of very interesting research links)
                                                      > _
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 7:54 PM, charliepolecat <kennethjessett@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > > 
                                                      > >If there is an interest in creating the John Muir Trail Association, we could form a steering committee to get moving with it.
                                                      > >
                                                      > >I don't live anywhere near it, but I'll put my name forward to help get it started.
                                                      > >
                                                      > >Ken.
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                    • John Ladd
                                                      Or someone with energy could contact Steve and Claire Schauer -- who own the Google top ranked site for a search of John Muir Trail -- and offer to help them
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Sep 11, 2012
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Or someone with energy could contact Steve and Claire Schauer -- who own the Google top ranked site for a search of "John Muir Trail" -- and offer to help them improve their site that has the most logical name (JohnMuirTrail.org).  

                                                        http://johnmuirtrail.org/contact.html

                                                        info@...

                                                        I think it would be a mistake to set up a third place for JMT discussions. The more we fragment discussions of the trail, the more often we have to post the same information multiple times.  There's no way to make the Facebook and Yahoo people migrate to a new forum, so we'd end up with 3 forums rather than 2, and I doubt that we could get enough consensus on the best format to make one site dominant. Some people would prefer Facebook, some Yahoo and some a new third format.

                                                        John Curran Ladd
                                                        1616 Castro Street
                                                        San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                                                        415-648-9279


                                                        On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 4:10 PM, brink_nathan <brink_nathan@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        >  
                                                        >
                                                        > For what it's worth, I own the domain jmt-talk.com, as I've been wanting to put together a site with a better format that Yahoo Groups for a while now. Just been busy with work lately.
                                                        >
                                                        > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Ed Rodriguez <ed_rodriguez52@...> wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > My 4 cents, from what I read on this is from my view point is how can we help other with the information people with all the information needed to hike the JMT. I think a web page with all the info needed in a format that will be easy to click on what a person wanted more information on the trail. Not sure of all the details but am thinking of setting up an domain name (which will cost some money to maintain each year). Either way, I seen so many people on the trail that go in with the best intention only to fall short on their trip because of poor planing and miss information.
                                                        > > Â
                                                        > > Ed Rodriguez
                                                        > > Roseville, CA
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Place one foot in front of the other keeping your eyes on the horizon  Â
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > ________________________________
                                                        > > From: Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...>
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > > To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 5:26 PM
                                                        > > Subject: [John Muir Trail] Creating the John Muir Trail Association
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Â
                                                        > > We need to change the subject (title) for this thread.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > I have an interest but not in leading the effort as I don't have experience in such.Â
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Here is the strongest plus I know for creating such an association -- google does not like to give links to a Yahoo Group for its prominent results.  This group has compiled more research files and links and discussion on the JMT than all other web sites (if not combined), yet only about 15% of the people I met on the JMT this year has heard of the group.  Yet if you type in "John Muir Trail" in Google, links to our sites are very far down the list.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > If we created an association, we'd have more prominence if we moved our material to a web site with good forum software, etc.  Or maybe we could keep the Yahoo Group as the forum for the association and have the files and links on the Association web page.
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > -------------------------------------------------
                                                        > > Visit my Google Profile(lots of very interesting research links)
                                                        > > _
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 7:54 PM, charliepolecat <kennethjessett@...> wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > >Â
                                                        > > >If there is an interest in creating the John Muir Trail Association, we could form a steering committee to get moving with it.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >I don't live anywhere near it, but I'll put my name forward to help get it started.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >Ken.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                      • pctassociation
                                                        Hi JMT group! One of the group s members sent along notice of this thread and asked for PCTA s comments. I was out thruhiking the JMT (3rd-ish time, 9 days,
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Sep 14, 2012
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          Hi JMT group!

                                                          One of the group's members sent along notice of this thread and asked for PCTA's comments. I was out thruhiking the JMT (3rd-ish time, 9 days, beautiful!) when the bulk of the discussion occurred.

                                                          Having read it all, we want to start with acknowledging all of the great ideas and discussion. We don't really need to respond to most of it, because other people have expounded on the topic so well.

                                                          Many have discussed the desire that the PCTA have better JMT information. To this we say "ABSOLUTELY!" We will gladly link to the JMT-YG and hold it up as a vibrant and helpful place to discuss the JMT. We will also expand our JMT information.

                                                          We've been building a new website for a few months. It looks great! When I started at the PCTA in Spring 2011, I was especially excited about revamping the tools at our disposal so that we could provide better information. It's still a few months off launching. Quite soon (weeks?), we'll be ready to start on the content creation for our JMT info. If JMT-YG has input, we'd like to hear it.

                                                          With our website (v.1.0) we'll aim to steward helpful, detailed and concise information. In the future, we may evolve it into something deeper, perhaps an interactive portal with a great depth of information. (We have grand plans.)

                                                          We're not sure how to work with a Yahoo Group to advise us on content for a webpage. Do you have ideas? How'd that work? Note that we're all busy.

                                                          If people are interested in advising us on content, we can set up some guidelines for what we're looking for and a Google Doc that everyone can edit. Perhaps we try a Google Hangouts video chat to collaborate on ideas.

                                                          I'll check this thread again for responses. I don't have time to hang out on the group much though. It's best to contact me at jhaskel@... or 916-285-1846. If I haven't responded in this thread, please do send me an email.

                                                          Happy trails,
                                                          Jack Haskel
                                                          Trail Information Specialist, Pacific Crest Trail Association
                                                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.