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Being prepared for hiking the JMT in June

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  • Nabeel Alsalam
    My son, a friend of his, and I plan to hike the JMT between June 2 and June 25. (I ll be trading with the friend halfway down the trail at South Lake.) The
    Message 1 of 15 , May 30, 2008
      My son, a friend of his, and I plan to hike the JMT between June 2 and June
      25. (I'll be trading with the friend halfway down the trail at South
      Lake.)



      The question is what we should expect with respect to snow, cold, and
      streams and how should we prepare to deal with it. I've been looking at
      all the data that I can, but I don't have the experience to really interpret
      it. I'm hoping some of you can help.



      My current guess is that we'll run into snow but it'll be here and there and
      that in some areas it'll be slushy and in other areas crusty. I'm assuming
      that we don't need snowshoes but that we might run into slick icy areas that
      are tough climbs and maybe carrying crampons would be advisable. What do
      you think?



      I'm very uncertain about what to expect at the stream crossings. The
      streams might be raging as we are probably at the height of the spring melt.
      What do you think? Will they be tough but doable? Should we take a 100
      feet of rope?



      From this http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryDaily?CBT it seems that
      Crabtree Meadows has no snow but the temperatures are ridiculous varying
      from -40 lows to low single digit and low teens for highs. Wow! Are
      those numbers credible?



      The Yosemite area forecast for 8,000 feet is for lows in the low 30s and
      highs in the 50s. At 9,500 feet the temperatures seem to be about 5
      degrees lower. At 12,500 feet the temperatures drop in to the lower 20s
      and don't rise above the lower 40s. Those temperatures don't sound too
      bad, but do we need to be prepared for a really really cold spell, i.e. sub
      zero for a significant period.



      From this http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryDaily?BSH it seems that
      Bishop Pass has 20" of snow but it have very little water content compared
      to earlier in the month. Does that mean it is light and fluffy? Temperature
      is cold but reasonable varying from lows in the 20s to highs in the 30s.


      According to the (rarely updated) trail conditions page the snow level is in
      the 7,000 to 8,000 range. That doesn't tell me much.

      I appreciate any words of wisdom.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ralph Alcorn
      Most Pacific Crest Trail thru hikers look at June 15th as the first date to enter the Sierras from the south. I know three went thru a couple of weeks ago, but
      Message 2 of 15 , May 30, 2008
        Most Pacific Crest Trail thru hikers look at June 15th as the first date to
        enter the Sierras from the south. I know three went thru a couple of weeks
        ago, but since then there has been a turn in the weather, and there was snow
        down to 6000 feet. I plan to do a short hike in the southern sierra south of
        Whitney, and have delayed it till June 22 to let the snow melt. Check out
        the early PCT hiker's photos: http://www.pcrexp.com/
        http://www.flickr.com/photos/clairesgallery/sets/72157605239052741/

        The PCT hikers will also be carrying crampons and ice axes. I recommend the
        same. The stream crossings will be hairy. From my jmt web page:

        Early Season Fording Techniques:

        If you are a PCTer, you will have a number of fast deep crossings requiring
        extreme caution. Evolution Creek is the deepest, sometimes chest high at
        the normal crossing point, but not very fast. Others are not as deep but
        fast and dangerous. Usually best to cross in early morning - may be 12
        inches lower than late afternoon. Tyndall Creek, Bear Creek, south fork of
        Kings River, Rush Creek, Kerrick Canyon (northern Yosemite) are some of the
        others. Consensus from PCT-L forum is to use hiking poles or sticks to get 4
        points of contact, keep body facing the opposite shore, angle upstream to
        keep the force of water from collapsing your knees, wear synthetic fast
        drying clothes, take off long pants, unfasten waist belt. If shoes and boots
        are already wet leave them on. Walk between rocks, not on them. If wearing
        trail runners leave them on - some people take socks off. During dry weather
        if you have to cross in your boots, remove socks and boot liners, wipe out
        boots after crossing and reinsert liners. You will walk dry quickly. You
        need something to protect your feet (I have gone barefoot in midsummer and
        it is painful. I have carried lightweight kayak shoes for camp and river
        crossing - better than bare feet. I don't want the weight penalty of Tevas).
        With normal sierra weather you will dry as you walk fairly soon. If
        chilly, put on fleece after crossing.

        I posted a question about stream crossings on the pct forum a few years ago,
        and the consensus was that use of a rope was dangerous - too easy to get
        caught in it. With a large group and the rope well anchored on each side it
        might be ok.

        --
        Ralph Alcorn
        http://www.backpack45.com/camino2.html
        Shepherd Canyon books, Publisher of
        We're in the Mountains, Not Over the Hill: Tales and Tips from Seasoned
        Women Backpackers
        and
        Camino Chronicle: Walking to Santiago


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • khofso
        I ll let others comment on stream crossings, the need for crampons (or not) and cold temperatures. My main concern is that you need to have very good
        Message 3 of 15 , May 30, 2008
          I'll let others comment on stream crossings, the need for crampons
          (or not) and cold temperatures. My main concern is that you need to
          have very good navigation skills.

          The JMT is a summer trail - there are no winter markings. We had new
          snow over at elevations over 8000 feet this past weekend. Some trails
          may have fresh footprints to follow, others not.

          Starting from Yosemite Valley I anticipate you'd hit snow covered
          trails starting on your second day around the area of Sunrise High
          Sierra Camp.

          For photos of current conditions here are some photos I found.
          From Tioga Road over Memorial Day weekend:
          http://www.southforkriver.net/photos/Tioga_Pass/index.html

          Yosemite a couple of weeks ago:
          http://maverick.zenfolio.com/p767281031





          --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Nabeel Alsalam"
          <nabeel.alsalam@...> wrote:
          >
          > My son, a friend of his, and I plan to hike the JMT between June 2
          and June
          > 25. (I'll be trading with the friend halfway down the trail at
          South
          > Lake.)
          >
          >
          >
          > The question is what we should expect with respect to snow, cold,
          and
          > streams and how should we prepare to deal with it. I've been
          looking at
          > all the data that I can, but I don't have the experience to really
          interpret
          > it. I'm hoping some of you can help.
          >
          >
          >
          > My current guess is that we'll run into snow but it'll be here and
          there and
          > that in some areas it'll be slushy and in other areas crusty. I'm
          assuming
          > that we don't need snowshoes but that we might run into slick icy
          areas that
          > are tough climbs and maybe carrying crampons would be advisable.
          What do
          > you think?
          >
          >
          >
          > I'm very uncertain about what to expect at the stream crossings.
          The
          > streams might be raging as we are probably at the height of the
          spring melt.
          > What do you think? Will they be tough but doable? Should we take
          a 100
          > feet of rope?
          >
          >
          >
          > From this http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryDaily?CBT it
          seems that
          > Crabtree Meadows has no snow but the temperatures are ridiculous
          varying
          > from -40 lows to low single digit and low teens for highs. Wow!
          Are
          > those numbers credible?
          >
          >
          >
          > The Yosemite area forecast for 8,000 feet is for lows in the low
          30s and
          > highs in the 50s. At 9,500 feet the temperatures seem to be
          about 5
          > degrees lower. At 12,500 feet the temperatures drop in to the
          lower 20s
          > and don't rise above the lower 40s. Those temperatures don't
          sound too
          > bad, but do we need to be prepared for a really really cold spell,
          i.e. sub
          > zero for a significant period.
          >
          >
          >
          > From this http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryDaily?BSH it
          seems that
          > Bishop Pass has 20" of snow but it have very little water content
          compared
          > to earlier in the month. Does that mean it is light and fluffy?
          Temperature
          > is cold but reasonable varying from lows in the 20s to highs in the
          30s.
          >
          >
          > According to the (rarely updated) trail conditions page the snow
          level is in
          > the 7,000 to 8,000 range. That doesn't tell me much.
          >
          > I appreciate any words of wisdom.
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Nabeel Alsalam
          Thanks. I m pretty good with a topo and a compass, and I was assuming the landscape would be more wide open than the eastern woods that I m more used to.
          Message 4 of 15 , May 30, 2008
            Thanks. I'm pretty good with a topo and a compass, and I was assuming the
            landscape would be more wide open than the eastern woods that I'm more used
            to. In those wood, I definitely need trail markings. So I guess I should
            spring for a GPS to supplement the topos. :-)

            On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 4:55 PM, khofso <khofso@...> wrote:

            > I'll let others comment on stream crossings, the need for crampons
            > (or not) and cold temperatures. My main concern is that you need to
            > have very good navigation skills.
            >
            > The JMT is a summer trail - there are no winter markings. We had new
            > snow over at elevations over 8000 feet this past weekend. Some trails
            > may have fresh footprints to follow, others not.
            >
            > Starting from Yosemite Valley I anticipate you'd hit snow covered
            > trails starting on your second day around the area of Sunrise High
            > Sierra Camp.
            >
            > For photos of current conditions here are some photos I found.
            > From Tioga Road over Memorial Day weekend:
            > http://www.southforkriver.net/photos/Tioga_Pass/index.html
            >
            > Yosemite a couple of weeks ago:
            > http://maverick.zenfolio.com/p767281031
            >
            > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com <johnmuirtrail%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > "Nabeel Alsalam"
            > <nabeel.alsalam@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > My son, a friend of his, and I plan to hike the JMT between June 2
            > and June
            > > 25. (I'll be trading with the friend halfway down the trail at
            > South
            > > Lake.)
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > The question is what we should expect with respect to snow, cold,
            > and
            > > streams and how should we prepare to deal with it. I've been
            > looking at
            > > all the data that I can, but I don't have the experience to really
            > interpret
            > > it. I'm hoping some of you can help.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > My current guess is that we'll run into snow but it'll be here and
            > there and
            > > that in some areas it'll be slushy and in other areas crusty. I'm
            > assuming
            > > that we don't need snowshoes but that we might run into slick icy
            > areas that
            > > are tough climbs and maybe carrying crampons would be advisable.
            > What do
            > > you think?
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > I'm very uncertain about what to expect at the stream crossings.
            > The
            > > streams might be raging as we are probably at the height of the
            > spring melt.
            > > What do you think? Will they be tough but doable? Should we take
            > a 100
            > > feet of rope?
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > From this http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryDaily?CBT it
            > seems that
            > > Crabtree Meadows has no snow but the temperatures are ridiculous
            > varying
            > > from -40 lows to low single digit and low teens for highs. Wow!
            > Are
            > > those numbers credible?
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > The Yosemite area forecast for 8,000 feet is for lows in the low
            > 30s and
            > > highs in the 50s. At 9,500 feet the temperatures seem to be
            > about 5
            > > degrees lower. At 12,500 feet the temperatures drop in to the
            > lower 20s
            > > and don't rise above the lower 40s. Those temperatures don't
            > sound too
            > > bad, but do we need to be prepared for a really really cold spell,
            > i.e. sub
            > > zero for a significant period.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > From this http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryDaily?BSH it
            > seems that
            > > Bishop Pass has 20" of snow but it have very little water content
            > compared
            > > to earlier in the month. Does that mean it is light and fluffy?
            > Temperature
            > > is cold but reasonable varying from lows in the 20s to highs in the
            > 30s.
            > >
            > >
            > > According to the (rarely updated) trail conditions page the snow
            > level is in
            > > the 7,000 to 8,000 range. That doesn't tell me much.
            > >
            > > I appreciate any words of wisdom.
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Nabeel Alsalam
            Thanks. I m researching crampons now. A great adventure that I shared with my 7-year-old daughter in Glacier NP in July, and that we both still remember
            Message 5 of 15 , May 30, 2008
              Thanks. I'm researching crampons now.

              A great adventure that I shared with my 7-year-old daughter in Glacier NP in
              July, and that we both still remember almost 20 years later was a little
              dayhike up a ravine, over a pass (Syah, I think), and down a valley, both on
              the Going to the Sun road. The family was due to meet us at the end, so
              turning back hard to do.

              Our first obstacle was the ice sheet at the top of the pass and descending
              down the other side at an ever increasing angle. I put her on my shoulder
              and grabbed two sharp rocks in my hands and started down digging my heels
              into the ice as best I could, but twice I slipped and starting sliding down
              fast and had to turn over and dig the rocks in with her still on my
              shoulders to brake my slide. I can see the value of crampons.

              Our second obstacle was a big horn sheet on the trail who felt very
              territorial and did not want us to pass. We found a way around.

              All the while, we were listened to the bells on our boots tingle as we
              walked so that we would not surprise any Grizzlies. A couple had been
              mauled earlier in the week when they surprised a mom and her cubs.

              Thanks for the advice.

              On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 4:14 PM, Ralph Alcorn <rbalcorn@...> wrote:

              > Most Pacific Crest Trail thru hikers look at June 15th as the first date
              > to
              > enter the Sierras from the south. I know three went thru a couple of weeks
              > ago, but since then there has been a turn in the weather, and there was
              > snow
              > down to 6000 feet. I plan to do a short hike in the southern sierra south
              > of
              > Whitney, and have delayed it till June 22 to let the snow melt. Check out
              > the early PCT hiker's photos: http://www.pcrexp.com/
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/clairesgallery/sets/72157605239052741/
              >
              > The PCT hikers will also be carrying crampons and ice axes. I recommend the
              > same. The stream crossings will be hairy. From my jmt web page:
              >
              > Early Season Fording Techniques:
              >
              > If you are a PCTer, you will have a number of fast deep crossings requiring
              > extreme caution. Evolution Creek is the deepest, sometimes chest high at
              > the normal crossing point, but not very fast. Others are not as deep but
              > fast and dangerous. Usually best to cross in early morning - may be 12
              > inches lower than late afternoon. Tyndall Creek, Bear Creek, south fork of
              > Kings River, Rush Creek, Kerrick Canyon (northern Yosemite) are some of the
              > others. Consensus from PCT-L forum is to use hiking poles or sticks to get
              > 4
              > points of contact, keep body facing the opposite shore, angle upstream to
              > keep the force of water from collapsing your knees, wear synthetic fast
              > drying clothes, take off long pants, unfasten waist belt. If shoes and
              > boots
              > are already wet leave them on. Walk between rocks, not on them. If wearing
              > trail runners leave them on - some people take socks off. During dry
              > weather
              > if you have to cross in your boots, remove socks and boot liners, wipe out
              > boots after crossing and reinsert liners. You will walk dry quickly. You
              > need something to protect your feet (I have gone barefoot in midsummer and
              > it is painful. I have carried lightweight kayak shoes for camp and river
              > crossing - better than bare feet. I don't want the weight penalty of
              > Tevas).
              > With normal sierra weather you will dry as you walk fairly soon. If
              > chilly, put on fleece after crossing.
              >
              > I posted a question about stream crossings on the pct forum a few years
              > ago,
              > and the consensus was that use of a rope was dangerous - too easy to get
              > caught in it. With a large group and the rope well anchored on each side it
              > might be ok.
              >
              > --
              > Ralph Alcorn
              > http://www.backpack45.com/camino2.html
              > Shepherd Canyon books, Publisher of
              > We're in the Mountains, Not Over the Hill: Tales and Tips from Seasoned
              > Women Backpackers
              > and
              > Camino Chronicle: Walking to Santiago
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Roleigh Martin
              What s recommended for ultralight crampons? especially for contingency purposes when hiking in late July/early August in the High Sierras? Nabeel Alsalam
              Message 6 of 15 , May 30, 2008
                What's recommended for ultralight crampons? especially for contingency purposes when hiking in late July/early August in the High Sierras?

                Nabeel Alsalam <nabeel.alsalam@...> wrote: Thanks. I'm researching crampons now.

                A great adventure that I shared with my 7-year-old daughter in Glacier NP in
                July, and that we both still remember almost 20 years later was a little
                dayhike up a ravine, over a pass (Syah, I think), and down a valley, both on
                the Going to the Sun road. The family was due to meet us at the end, so
                turning back hard to do.

                Our first obstacle was the ice sheet at the top of the pass and descending
                down the other side at an ever increasing angle. I put her on my shoulder
                and grabbed two sharp rocks in my hands and started down digging my heels
                into the ice as best I could, but twice I slipped and starting sliding down
                fast and had to turn over and dig the rocks in with her still on my
                shoulders to brake my slide. I can see the value of crampons.

                Our second obstacle was a big horn sheet on the trail who felt very
                territorial and did not want us to pass. We found a way around.

                All the while, we were listened to the bells on our boots tingle as we
                walked so that we would not surprise any Grizzlies. A couple had been
                mauled earlier in the week when they surprised a mom and her cubs.

                Thanks for the advice.

                On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 4:14 PM, Ralph Alcorn <rbalcorn@...> wrote:

                > Most Pacific Crest Trail thru hikers look at June 15th as the first date
                > to
                > enter the Sierras from the south. I know three went thru a couple of weeks
                > ago, but since then there has been a turn in the weather, and there was
                > snow
                > down to 6000 feet. I plan to do a short hike in the southern sierra south
                > of
                > Whitney, and have delayed it till June 22 to let the snow melt. Check out
                > the early PCT hiker's photos: http://www.pcrexp.com/
                > http://www.flickr.com/photos/clairesgallery/sets/72157605239052741/
                >
                > The PCT hikers will also be carrying crampons and ice axes. I recommend the
                > same. The stream crossings will be hairy. From my jmt web page:
                >
                > Early Season Fording Techniques:
                >
                > If you are a PCTer, you will have a number of fast deep crossings requiring
                > extreme caution. Evolution Creek is the deepest, sometimes chest high at
                > the normal crossing point, but not very fast. Others are not as deep but
                > fast and dangerous. Usually best to cross in early morning - may be 12
                > inches lower than late afternoon. Tyndall Creek, Bear Creek, south fork of
                > Kings River, Rush Creek, Kerrick Canyon (northern Yosemite) are some of the
                > others. Consensus from PCT-L forum is to use hiking poles or sticks to get
                > 4
                > points of contact, keep body facing the opposite shore, angle upstream to
                > keep the force of water from collapsing your knees, wear synthetic fast
                > drying clothes, take off long pants, unfasten waist belt. If shoes and
                > boots
                > are already wet leave them on. Walk between rocks, not on them. If wearing
                > trail runners leave them on - some people take socks off. During dry
                > weather
                > if you have to cross in your boots, remove socks and boot liners, wipe out
                > boots after crossing and reinsert liners. You will walk dry quickly. You
                > need something to protect your feet (I have gone barefoot in midsummer and
                > it is painful. I have carried lightweight kayak shoes for camp and river
                > crossing - better than bare feet. I don't want the weight penalty of
                > Tevas).
                > With normal sierra weather you will dry as you walk fairly soon. If
                > chilly, put on fleece after crossing.
                >
                > I posted a question about stream crossings on the pct forum a few years
                > ago,
                > and the consensus was that use of a rope was dangerous - too easy to get
                > caught in it. With a large group and the rope well anchored on each side it
                > might be ok.
                >
                > --
                > Ralph Alcorn
                > http://www.backpack45.com/camino2.html
                > Shepherd Canyon books, Publisher of
                > We're in the Mountains, Not Over the Hill: Tales and Tips from Seasoned
                > Women Backpackers
                > and
                > Camino Chronicle: Walking to Santiago
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Roleigh Martin
                Just a reminder of the spreadsheet file of about 300 GPS / waypoint (north-to-south and south-to-north mileage offsets) available for JMT hikers at
                Message 7 of 15 , May 30, 2008
                  Just a reminder of the spreadsheet file of about 300 GPS / waypoint (north-to-south and south-to-north mileage offsets) available for JMT hikers at

                  http://www.whitneyportalstore.com/data/EWenk_JMT.htm

                  Please note, this file has three spreadsheet tabs -- navigate to each one otherwise you'll be confused thinking the file is nothing but an advertisement for the JMT book by Elizabeth Wenk. The file is massively valuable for navigating the JMT trail. By sorting the waypoint page by north to south or south to north, you'll nicely intermix scenic waypoints and camp sights in the sequence you'll be walking by them.

                  khofso <khofso@...> wrote:
                  I'll let others comment on stream crossings, the need for crampons
                  (or not) and cold temperatures. My main concern is that you need to
                  have very good navigation skills.

                  The JMT is a summer trail - there are no winter markings. We had new
                  snow over at elevations over 8000 feet this past weekend. Some trails
                  may have fresh footprints to follow, others not.

                  Starting from Yosemite Valley I anticipate you'd hit snow covered
                  trails starting on your second day around the area of Sunrise High
                  Sierra Camp.

                  For photos of current conditions here are some photos I found.
                  From Tioga Road over Memorial Day weekend:
                  http://www.southforkriver.net/photos/Tioga_Pass/index.html

                  Yosemite a couple of weeks ago:
                  http://maverick.zenfolio.com/p767281031

                  --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Nabeel Alsalam"
                  <nabeel.alsalam@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > My son, a friend of his, and I plan to hike the JMT between June 2
                  and June
                  > 25. (I'll be trading with the friend halfway down the trail at
                  South
                  > Lake.)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The question is what we should expect with respect to snow, cold,
                  and
                  > streams and how should we prepare to deal with it. I've been
                  looking at
                  > all the data that I can, but I don't have the experience to really
                  interpret
                  > it. I'm hoping some of you can help.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > My current guess is that we'll run into snow but it'll be here and
                  there and
                  > that in some areas it'll be slushy and in other areas crusty. I'm
                  assuming
                  > that we don't need snowshoes but that we might run into slick icy
                  areas that
                  > are tough climbs and maybe carrying crampons would be advisable.
                  What do
                  > you think?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I'm very uncertain about what to expect at the stream crossings.
                  The
                  > streams might be raging as we are probably at the height of the
                  spring melt.
                  > What do you think? Will they be tough but doable? Should we take
                  a 100
                  > feet of rope?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > From this http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryDaily?CBT it
                  seems that
                  > Crabtree Meadows has no snow but the temperatures are ridiculous
                  varying
                  > from -40 lows to low single digit and low teens for highs. Wow!
                  Are
                  > those numbers credible?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The Yosemite area forecast for 8,000 feet is for lows in the low
                  30s and
                  > highs in the 50s. At 9,500 feet the temperatures seem to be
                  about 5
                  > degrees lower. At 12,500 feet the temperatures drop in to the
                  lower 20s
                  > and don't rise above the lower 40s. Those temperatures don't
                  sound too
                  > bad, but do we need to be prepared for a really really cold spell,
                  i.e. sub
                  > zero for a significant period.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > From this http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryDaily?BSH it
                  seems that
                  > Bishop Pass has 20" of snow but it have very little water content
                  compared
                  > to earlier in the month. Does that mean it is light and fluffy?
                  Temperature
                  > is cold but reasonable varying from lows in the 20s to highs in the
                  30s.
                  >
                  >
                  > According to the (rarely updated) trail conditions page the snow
                  level is in
                  > the 7,000 to 8,000 range. That doesn't tell me much.
                  >
                  > I appreciate any words of wisdom.
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Kevin Aston
                  A main concern when hiking in snowy conditions is to make sure that you do not cross any lakes. Rumor has it some hikers have fallen through the ice in past
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 30, 2008
                    A main concern when hiking in snowy conditions is to make sure that
                    you do not cross any lakes. Rumor has it some hikers have fallen
                    through the ice in past years. Not being able to see the trail will
                    complicate it some. GPSs vary the distances according to the accuracy
                    that you GPS has, plus the accuracy of the person/GPS who created the
                    coordinates. Some are hundreds of feet off depending on how many
                    satellites you are in contact with, and how good the map maker was. I
                    have seen several things on my GPS that were not there in person. Be
                    careful, but the more references you have the safer you will be. You
                    can download Garmin Mapsource waypoints from my site at
                    http://www.kevinaston.com/JMTSpreadsheet.html You may wish to compare
                    mine listed with those below and get the best possible readings.

                    Good Luck Be Safe
                    Kevin

                    --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Just a reminder of the spreadsheet file of about 300 GPS / waypoint
                    (north-to-south and south-to-north mileage offsets) available for JMT
                    hikers at
                    >
                    > http://www.whitneyportalstore.com/data/EWenk_JMT.htm
                    >
                    > Please note, this file has three spreadsheet tabs -- navigate to
                    each one otherwise you'll be confused thinking the file is nothing but
                    an advertisement for the JMT book by Elizabeth Wenk. The file is
                    massively valuable for navigating the JMT trail. By sorting the
                    waypoint page by north to south or south to north, you'll nicely
                    intermix scenic waypoints and camp sights in the sequence you'll be
                    walking by them.
                    >
                    > khofso <khofso@...> wrote:
                    > I'll let others comment on stream crossings, the need for
                    crampons
                    > (or not) and cold temperatures. My main concern is that you need to
                    > have very good navigation skills.
                    >
                    > The JMT is a summer trail - there are no winter markings. We had new
                    > snow over at elevations over 8000 feet this past weekend. Some trails
                    > may have fresh footprints to follow, others not.
                    >
                    > Starting from Yosemite Valley I anticipate you'd hit snow covered
                    > trails starting on your second day around the area of Sunrise High
                    > Sierra Camp.
                    >
                    > For photos of current conditions here are some photos I found.
                    > From Tioga Road over Memorial Day weekend:
                    > http://www.southforkriver.net/photos/Tioga_Pass/index.html
                    >
                    > Yosemite a couple of weeks ago:
                    > http://maverick.zenfolio.com/p767281031
                    >
                    > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Nabeel Alsalam"
                    > <nabeel.alsalam@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > My son, a friend of his, and I plan to hike the JMT between June 2
                    > and June
                    > > 25. (I'll be trading with the friend halfway down the trail at
                    > South
                    > > Lake.)
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > The question is what we should expect with respect to snow, cold,
                    > and
                    > > streams and how should we prepare to deal with it. I've been
                    > looking at
                    > > all the data that I can, but I don't have the experience to really
                    > interpret
                    > > it. I'm hoping some of you can help.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > My current guess is that we'll run into snow but it'll be here and
                    > there and
                    > > that in some areas it'll be slushy and in other areas crusty. I'm
                    > assuming
                    > > that we don't need snowshoes but that we might run into slick icy
                    > areas that
                    > > are tough climbs and maybe carrying crampons would be advisable.
                    > What do
                    > > you think?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I'm very uncertain about what to expect at the stream crossings.
                    > The
                    > > streams might be raging as we are probably at the height of the
                    > spring melt.
                    > > What do you think? Will they be tough but doable? Should we take
                    > a 100
                    > > feet of rope?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > From this http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryDaily?CBT it
                    > seems that
                    > > Crabtree Meadows has no snow but the temperatures are ridiculous
                    > varying
                    > > from -40 lows to low single digit and low teens for highs. Wow!
                    > Are
                    > > those numbers credible?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > The Yosemite area forecast for 8,000 feet is for lows in the low
                    > 30s and
                    > > highs in the 50s. At 9,500 feet the temperatures seem to be
                    > about 5
                    > > degrees lower. At 12,500 feet the temperatures drop in to the
                    > lower 20s
                    > > and don't rise above the lower 40s. Those temperatures don't
                    > sound too
                    > > bad, but do we need to be prepared for a really really cold spell,
                    > i.e. sub
                    > > zero for a significant period.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > From this http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryDaily?BSH it
                    > seems that
                    > > Bishop Pass has 20" of snow but it have very little water content
                    > compared
                    > > to earlier in the month. Does that mean it is light and fluffy?
                    > Temperature
                    > > is cold but reasonable varying from lows in the 20s to highs in the
                    > 30s.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > According to the (rarely updated) trail conditions page the snow
                    > level is in
                    > > the 7,000 to 8,000 range. That doesn't tell me much.
                    > >
                    > > I appreciate any words of wisdom.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Roleigh Martin
                    Kevin makes very good points, remember the waypoints in the Wenk spreadsheet include scenic waypoints on the trail and campsites off the trail. A specific
                    Message 9 of 15 , May 30, 2008
                      Kevin makes very good points, remember the waypoints in the Wenk spreadsheet include scenic waypoints on the trail and campsites off the trail. A specific column in the sheet indicates if the waypoint is specific to a campsite or not.

                      What I hate is that unlike the high sierra trail, which is clearly marked on the garmin mapsource software, the entire length of the john muir trail is not marked clearly on the garmin mapsource software. It appears to be marked on the National Geographic topo software but you can't download maps from that software to a garmin device.

                      question to list readers -- anyone have a gps they love they've downloaded the National Geographic top software for california that marks the JMT trail and can see the dotted lines labeled "JMT" or "John Muir Trail" on the GPS?

                      Kevin Aston <kevin@...> wrote: A main concern when hiking in snowy conditions is to make sure that
                      you do not cross any lakes. Rumor has it some hikers have fallen
                      through the ice in past years. Not being able to see the trail will
                      complicate it some. GPSs vary the distances according to the accuracy
                      that you GPS has, plus the accuracy of the person/GPS who created the
                      coordinates. Some are hundreds of feet off depending on how many
                      satellites you are in contact with, and how good the map maker was. I
                      have seen several things on my GPS that were not there in person. Be
                      careful, but the more references you have the safer you will be. You
                      can download Garmin Mapsource waypoints from my site at
                      http://www.kevinaston.com/JMTSpreadsheet.html You may wish to compare
                      mine listed with those below and get the best possible readings.

                      Good Luck Be Safe
                      Kevin

                      --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Just a reminder of the spreadsheet file of about 300 GPS / waypoint
                      (north-to-south and south-to-north mileage offsets) available for JMT
                      hikers at
                      >
                      > http://www.whitneyportalstore.com/data/EWenk_JMT.htm
                      >
                      > Please note, this file has three spreadsheet tabs -- navigate to
                      each one otherwise you'll be confused thinking the file is nothing but
                      an advertisement for the JMT book by Elizabeth Wenk. The file is
                      massively valuable for navigating the JMT trail. By sorting the
                      waypoint page by north to south or south to north, you'll nicely
                      intermix scenic waypoints and camp sights in the sequence you'll be
                      walking by them.
                      >
                      > khofso <khofso@...> wrote:
                      > I'll let others comment on stream crossings, the need for
                      crampons
                      > (or not) and cold temperatures. My main concern is that you need to
                      > have very good navigation skills.
                      >
                      > The JMT is a summer trail - there are no winter markings. We had new
                      > snow over at elevations over 8000 feet this past weekend. Some trails
                      > may have fresh footprints to follow, others not.
                      >
                      > Starting from Yosemite Valley I anticipate you'd hit snow covered
                      > trails starting on your second day around the area of Sunrise High
                      > Sierra Camp.
                      >
                      > For photos of current conditions here are some photos I found.
                      > From Tioga Road over Memorial Day weekend:
                      > http://www.southforkriver.net/photos/Tioga_Pass/index.html
                      >
                      > Yosemite a couple of weeks ago:
                      > http://maverick.zenfolio.com/p767281031
                      >
                      > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Nabeel Alsalam"
                      > <nabeel.alsalam@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > My son, a friend of his, and I plan to hike the JMT between June 2
                      > and June
                      > > 25. (I'll be trading with the friend halfway down the trail at
                      > South
                      > > Lake.)
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > The question is what we should expect with respect to snow, cold,
                      > and
                      > > streams and how should we prepare to deal with it. I've been
                      > looking at
                      > > all the data that I can, but I don't have the experience to really
                      > interpret
                      > > it. I'm hoping some of you can help.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > My current guess is that we'll run into snow but it'll be here and
                      > there and
                      > > that in some areas it'll be slushy and in other areas crusty. I'm
                      > assuming
                      > > that we don't need snowshoes but that we might run into slick icy
                      > areas that
                      > > are tough climbs and maybe carrying crampons would be advisable.
                      > What do
                      > > you think?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I'm very uncertain about what to expect at the stream crossings.
                      > The
                      > > streams might be raging as we are probably at the height of the
                      > spring melt.
                      > > What do you think? Will they be tough but doable? Should we take
                      > a 100
                      > > feet of rope?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > From this http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryDaily?CBT it
                      > seems that
                      > > Crabtree Meadows has no snow but the temperatures are ridiculous
                      > varying
                      > > from -40 lows to low single digit and low teens for highs. Wow!
                      > Are
                      > > those numbers credible?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > The Yosemite area forecast for 8,000 feet is for lows in the low
                      > 30s and
                      > > highs in the 50s. At 9,500 feet the temperatures seem to be
                      > about 5
                      > > degrees lower. At 12,500 feet the temperatures drop in to the
                      > lower 20s
                      > > and don't rise above the lower 40s. Those temperatures don't
                      > sound too
                      > > bad, but do we need to be prepared for a really really cold spell,
                      > i.e. sub
                      > > zero for a significant period.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > From this http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryDaily?BSH it
                      > seems that
                      > > Bishop Pass has 20" of snow but it have very little water content
                      > compared
                      > > to earlier in the month. Does that mean it is light and fluffy?
                      > Temperature
                      > > is cold but reasonable varying from lows in the 20s to highs in the
                      > 30s.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > According to the (rarely updated) trail conditions page the snow
                      > level is in
                      > > the 7,000 to 8,000 range. That doesn't tell me much.
                      > >
                      > > I appreciate any words of wisdom.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Kevin Aston
                      I belong to a Garmin discussion group. We talk all the time about different map software, and they do make most of them to download to all brands of GPS unless
                      Message 10 of 15 , May 31, 2008
                        I belong to a Garmin discussion group. We talk all the time about
                        different map software, and they do make most of them to download to
                        all brands of GPS unless it is aimed at their own brand of GPS.
                        National Geographic works fine on most brands, also if you zoom in on
                        the Mapsource software it does show the JMT, and clicking on the trail
                        on the Mapsource map is how I got the original GPS coordinates that
                        everyone has been using. They were exported to the spreadsheets and
                        thus my hike plans. The problems with any brand of map is that mother
                        nature is constantly changing mother earth, so things are not always
                        in the same location as when the map was made sometimes several years
                        before you use it. Even if your coordinates were perfect, and you had
                        an accurate GPS unit with 4 or more satellites being picked up, you
                        still may be off by a hundred feet, because civilians do not have
                        military grade accuracy on our GPS units.

                        I guess what brought all of this up is, be careful not to cross a
                        frozen lake this time of year, you could die.

                        Has anyone ever tried to download the coordinates of of one of our
                        spreadsheets back into map software? I would hate to have to manually
                        enter the data for the thousands of little trail markers that enable
                        you to follow the trail. I know Fred did it into Google Earth, Fred if
                        you are out there did you have to enter the waypoints one at a time,
                        or was it a mass download?

                        Planning is half the fun
                        Kevin Aston
                        www.kevinaston.com



                        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Kevin makes very good points, remember the waypoints in the Wenk
                        spreadsheet include scenic waypoints on the trail and campsites off
                        the trail. A specific column in the sheet indicates if the waypoint
                        is specific to a campsite or not.
                        >
                        > What I hate is that unlike the high sierra trail, which is clearly
                        marked on the garmin mapsource software, the entire length of the john
                        muir trail is not marked clearly on the garmin mapsource software. It
                        appears to be marked on the National Geographic topo software but you
                        can't download maps from that software to a garmin device.
                        >
                        > question to list readers -- anyone have a gps they love they've
                        downloaded the National Geographic top software for california that
                        marks the JMT trail and can see the dotted lines labeled "JMT" or
                        "John Muir Trail" on the GPS?
                        >
                        > Kevin Aston <kevin@...> wrote: A main
                        concern when hiking in snowy conditions is to make sure that
                        > you do not cross any lakes. Rumor has it some hikers have fallen
                        > through the ice in past years. Not being able to see the trail will
                        > complicate it some. GPSs vary the distances according to the accuracy
                        > that you GPS has, plus the accuracy of the person/GPS who created the
                        > coordinates. Some are hundreds of feet off depending on how many
                        > satellites you are in contact with, and how good the map maker was. I
                        > have seen several things on my GPS that were not there in person. Be
                        > careful, but the more references you have the safer you will be. You
                        > can download Garmin Mapsource waypoints from my site at
                        > http://www.kevinaston.com/JMTSpreadsheet.html You may wish to compare
                        > mine listed with those below and get the best possible readings.
                        >
                        > Good Luck Be Safe
                        > Kevin
                        >
                        > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Just a reminder of the spreadsheet file of about 300 GPS / waypoint
                        > (north-to-south and south-to-north mileage offsets) available for JMT
                        > hikers at
                        > >
                        > > http://www.whitneyportalstore.com/data/EWenk_JMT.htm
                        > >
                        > > Please note, this file has three spreadsheet tabs -- navigate to
                        > each one otherwise you'll be confused thinking the file is nothing but
                        > an advertisement for the JMT book by Elizabeth Wenk. The file is
                        > massively valuable for navigating the JMT trail. By sorting the
                        > waypoint page by north to south or south to north, you'll nicely
                        > intermix scenic waypoints and camp sights in the sequence you'll be
                        > walking by them.
                        > >
                        > > khofso <khofso@> wrote:
                        > > I'll let others comment on stream crossings, the need for
                        > crampons
                        > > (or not) and cold temperatures. My main concern is that you need to
                        > > have very good navigation skills.
                        > >
                        > > The JMT is a summer trail - there are no winter markings. We had new
                        > > snow over at elevations over 8000 feet this past weekend. Some
                        trails
                        > > may have fresh footprints to follow, others not.
                        > >
                        > > Starting from Yosemite Valley I anticipate you'd hit snow covered
                        > > trails starting on your second day around the area of Sunrise High
                        > > Sierra Camp.
                        > >
                        > > For photos of current conditions here are some photos I found.
                        > > From Tioga Road over Memorial Day weekend:
                        > > http://www.southforkriver.net/photos/Tioga_Pass/index.html
                        > >
                        > > Yosemite a couple of weeks ago:
                        > > http://maverick.zenfolio.com/p767281031
                        > >
                        > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Nabeel Alsalam"
                        > > <nabeel.alsalam@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > My son, a friend of his, and I plan to hike the JMT between June 2
                        > > and June
                        > > > 25. (I'll be trading with the friend halfway down the trail at
                        > > South
                        > > > Lake.)
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > The question is what we should expect with respect to snow, cold,
                        > > and
                        > > > streams and how should we prepare to deal with it. I've been
                        > > looking at
                        > > > all the data that I can, but I don't have the experience to really
                        > > interpret
                        > > > it. I'm hoping some of you can help.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > My current guess is that we'll run into snow but it'll be here and
                        > > there and
                        > > > that in some areas it'll be slushy and in other areas crusty. I'm
                        > > assuming
                        > > > that we don't need snowshoes but that we might run into slick icy
                        > > areas that
                        > > > are tough climbs and maybe carrying crampons would be advisable.
                        > > What do
                        > > > you think?
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > I'm very uncertain about what to expect at the stream crossings.
                        > > The
                        > > > streams might be raging as we are probably at the height of the
                        > > spring melt.
                        > > > What do you think? Will they be tough but doable? Should we take
                        > > a 100
                        > > > feet of rope?
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > From this http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryDaily?CBT it
                        > > seems that
                        > > > Crabtree Meadows has no snow but the temperatures are ridiculous
                        > > varying
                        > > > from -40 lows to low single digit and low teens for highs. Wow!
                        > > Are
                        > > > those numbers credible?
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > The Yosemite area forecast for 8,000 feet is for lows in the low
                        > > 30s and
                        > > > highs in the 50s. At 9,500 feet the temperatures seem to be
                        > > about 5
                        > > > degrees lower. At 12,500 feet the temperatures drop in to the
                        > > lower 20s
                        > > > and don't rise above the lower 40s. Those temperatures don't
                        > > sound too
                        > > > bad, but do we need to be prepared for a really really cold spell,
                        > > i.e. sub
                        > > > zero for a significant period.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > From this http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryDaily?BSH it
                        > > seems that
                        > > > Bishop Pass has 20" of snow but it have very little water content
                        > > compared
                        > > > to earlier in the month. Does that mean it is light and fluffy?
                        > > Temperature
                        > > > is cold but reasonable varying from lows in the 20s to highs in
                        the
                        > > 30s.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > According to the (rarely updated) trail conditions page the snow
                        > > level is in
                        > > > the 7,000 to 8,000 range. That doesn't tell me much.
                        > > >
                        > > > I appreciate any words of wisdom.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Kevin Aston
                        Here is a follow up about my earlier message. I asked Fred what he had done to load coordinates into Google Earth, and this was his response. Hi Kevin Nice to
                        Message 11 of 15 , May 31, 2008
                          Here is a follow up about my earlier message. I asked Fred what he had
                          done to load coordinates into Google Earth, and this was his response.

                          Hi Kevin
                          Nice to hear from you!
                          I've been off the list lately. I've been busy at work and
                          plannning/training for a Mt. Rainier summit attempt in about 3 weeks.

                          Those coordinates were loaded into Google Earth by hand. It took about
                          an hour but it was fun to see where each point brought you.

                          If people have a Garmin GPS, they could export the data from Excel
                          into a CSV file and then upload that using this free tool from Garmin.
                          http://www8.garmin.com/products/poiloader/

                          I haven't done this myself but it should work with a bit of trial and
                          error.



                          --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Aston" <kevin@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I belong to a Garmin discussion group. We talk all the time about
                          > different map software, and they do make most of them to download to
                          > all brands of GPS unless it is aimed at their own brand of GPS.
                          > National Geographic works fine on most brands, also if you zoom in on
                          > the Mapsource software it does show the JMT, and clicking on the trail
                          > on the Mapsource map is how I got the original GPS coordinates that
                          > everyone has been using. They were exported to the spreadsheets and
                          > thus my hike plans. The problems with any brand of map is that mother
                          > nature is constantly changing mother earth, so things are not always
                          > in the same location as when the map was made sometimes several years
                          > before you use it. Even if your coordinates were perfect, and you had
                          > an accurate GPS unit with 4 or more satellites being picked up, you
                          > still may be off by a hundred feet, because civilians do not have
                          > military grade accuracy on our GPS units.
                          >
                          > I guess what brought all of this up is, be careful not to cross a
                          > frozen lake this time of year, you could die.
                          >
                          > Has anyone ever tried to download the coordinates of of one of our
                          > spreadsheets back into map software? I would hate to have to manually
                          > enter the data for the thousands of little trail markers that enable
                          > you to follow the trail. I know Fred did it into Google Earth, Fred if
                          > you are out there did you have to enter the waypoints one at a time,
                          > or was it a mass download?
                          >
                          > Planning is half the fun
                          > Kevin Aston
                          > www.kevinaston.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Kevin makes very good points, remember the waypoints in the Wenk
                          > spreadsheet include scenic waypoints on the trail and campsites off
                          > the trail. A specific column in the sheet indicates if the waypoint
                          > is specific to a campsite or not.
                          > >
                          > > What I hate is that unlike the high sierra trail, which is clearly
                          > marked on the garmin mapsource software, the entire length of the john
                          > muir trail is not marked clearly on the garmin mapsource software. It
                          > appears to be marked on the National Geographic topo software but you
                          > can't download maps from that software to a garmin device.
                          > >
                          > > question to list readers -- anyone have a gps they love they've
                          > downloaded the National Geographic top software for california that
                          > marks the JMT trail and can see the dotted lines labeled "JMT" or
                          > "John Muir Trail" on the GPS?
                          > >
                          > > Kevin Aston <kevin@> wrote: A main
                          > concern when hiking in snowy conditions is to make sure that
                          > > you do not cross any lakes. Rumor has it some hikers have fallen
                          > > through the ice in past years. Not being able to see the trail will
                          > > complicate it some. GPSs vary the distances according to the accuracy
                          > > that you GPS has, plus the accuracy of the person/GPS who created the
                          > > coordinates. Some are hundreds of feet off depending on how many
                          > > satellites you are in contact with, and how good the map maker was. I
                          > > have seen several things on my GPS that were not there in person. Be
                          > > careful, but the more references you have the safer you will be. You
                          > > can download Garmin Mapsource waypoints from my site at
                          > > http://www.kevinaston.com/JMTSpreadsheet.html You may wish to
                          compare
                          > > mine listed with those below and get the best possible readings.
                          > >
                          > > Good Luck Be Safe
                          > > Kevin
                          > >
                          > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@>
                          wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Just a reminder of the spreadsheet file of about 300 GPS / waypoint
                          > > (north-to-south and south-to-north mileage offsets) available for JMT
                          > > hikers at
                          > > >
                          > > > http://www.whitneyportalstore.com/data/EWenk_JMT.htm
                          > > >
                          > > > Please note, this file has three spreadsheet tabs -- navigate to
                          > > each one otherwise you'll be confused thinking the file is
                          nothing but
                          > > an advertisement for the JMT book by Elizabeth Wenk. The file is
                          > > massively valuable for navigating the JMT trail. By sorting the
                          > > waypoint page by north to south or south to north, you'll nicely
                          > > intermix scenic waypoints and camp sights in the sequence you'll be
                          > > walking by them.
                          > > >
                          > > > khofso <khofso@> wrote:
                          > > > I'll let others comment on stream crossings, the need for
                          > > crampons
                          > > > (or not) and cold temperatures. My main concern is that you
                          need to
                          > > > have very good navigation skills.
                          > > >
                          > > > The JMT is a summer trail - there are no winter markings. We
                          had new
                          > > > snow over at elevations over 8000 feet this past weekend. Some
                          > trails
                          > > > may have fresh footprints to follow, others not.
                          > > >
                          > > > Starting from Yosemite Valley I anticipate you'd hit snow covered
                          > > > trails starting on your second day around the area of Sunrise High
                          > > > Sierra Camp.
                          > > >
                          > > > For photos of current conditions here are some photos I found.
                          > > > From Tioga Road over Memorial Day weekend:
                          > > > http://www.southforkriver.net/photos/Tioga_Pass/index.html
                          > > >
                          > > > Yosemite a couple of weeks ago:
                          > > > http://maverick.zenfolio.com/p767281031
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Nabeel Alsalam"
                          > > > <nabeel.alsalam@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > My son, a friend of his, and I plan to hike the JMT between
                          June 2
                          > > > and June
                          > > > > 25. (I'll be trading with the friend halfway down the trail at
                          > > > South
                          > > > > Lake.)
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The question is what we should expect with respect to snow,
                          cold,
                          > > > and
                          > > > > streams and how should we prepare to deal with it. I've been
                          > > > looking at
                          > > > > all the data that I can, but I don't have the experience to
                          really
                          > > > interpret
                          > > > > it. I'm hoping some of you can help.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > My current guess is that we'll run into snow but it'll be
                          here and
                          > > > there and
                          > > > > that in some areas it'll be slushy and in other areas crusty.
                          I'm
                          > > > assuming
                          > > > > that we don't need snowshoes but that we might run into slick
                          icy
                          > > > areas that
                          > > > > are tough climbs and maybe carrying crampons would be advisable.
                          > > > What do
                          > > > > you think?
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I'm very uncertain about what to expect at the stream crossings.
                          > > > The
                          > > > > streams might be raging as we are probably at the height of the
                          > > > spring melt.
                          > > > > What do you think? Will they be tough but doable? Should we take
                          > > > a 100
                          > > > > feet of rope?
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > From this http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryDaily?CBT it
                          > > > seems that
                          > > > > Crabtree Meadows has no snow but the temperatures are ridiculous
                          > > > varying
                          > > > > from -40 lows to low single digit and low teens for highs. Wow!
                          > > > Are
                          > > > > those numbers credible?
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The Yosemite area forecast for 8,000 feet is for lows in the low
                          > > > 30s and
                          > > > > highs in the 50s. At 9,500 feet the temperatures seem to be
                          > > > about 5
                          > > > > degrees lower. At 12,500 feet the temperatures drop in to the
                          > > > lower 20s
                          > > > > and don't rise above the lower 40s. Those temperatures don't
                          > > > sound too
                          > > > > bad, but do we need to be prepared for a really really cold
                          spell,
                          > > > i.e. sub
                          > > > > zero for a significant period.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > From this http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryDaily?BSH it
                          > > > seems that
                          > > > > Bishop Pass has 20" of snow but it have very little water
                          content
                          > > > compared
                          > > > > to earlier in the month. Does that mean it is light and fluffy?
                          > > > Temperature
                          > > > > is cold but reasonable varying from lows in the 20s to highs in
                          > the
                          > > > 30s.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > According to the (rarely updated) trail conditions page the snow
                          > > > level is in
                          > > > > the 7,000 to 8,000 range. That doesn't tell me much.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I appreciate any words of wisdom.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          >
                        • Derek Peters
                          Hey all, I just did this a few weeks ago. There is a free utility I use that makes this much easier. Google GPSBabel! It s a tool for translating any GPS
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jun 1, 2008
                            Hey all,

                            I just did this a few weeks ago. There is a free utility I use that makes this much easier. Google GPSBabel!
                            It's a tool for translating any GPS format to any other. I dump my GPS data back to Garmin Mapsource and save the GDB file. Then I use GPSBabel to convert the GDB to a !Topo format and a GoogleEarth KML file.
                            Here's a link the the KML file I created and linked on www.summitpost.org a few weeks ago.
                            http://www.surfnetc.com/derekp62/Kinabalu.kml

                            Just save the file locally on you computer and then with GoogleEarth open, use the file open command to open the Kinabalu.kml file.

                            Those of you who love the book "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" might get the reference to Babelfish!

                            Derek


                            --- On Sat, 5/31/08, Kevin Aston <kevin@...> wrote:

                            > From: Kevin Aston <kevin@...>
                            > Subject: [John Muir Trail] Loading Coordinates according to Fred.
                            > To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Saturday, May 31, 2008, 9:18 PM
                            > Here is a follow up about my earlier message. I asked Fred
                            > what he had
                            > done to load coordinates into Google Earth, and this was
                            > his response.
                            >
                            > Hi Kevin
                            > Nice to hear from you!
                            > I've been off the list lately. I've been busy at
                            > work and
                            > plannning/training for a Mt. Rainier summit attempt in
                            > about 3 weeks.
                            >
                            > Those coordinates were loaded into Google Earth by hand. It
                            > took about
                            > an hour but it was fun to see where each point brought you.
                            >
                            > If people have a Garmin GPS, they could export the data
                            > from Excel
                            > into a CSV file and then upload that using this free tool
                            > from Garmin.
                            > http://www8.garmin.com/products/poiloader/
                            >
                            > I haven't done this myself but it should work with a
                            > bit of trial and
                            > error.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin
                            > Aston" <kevin@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I belong to a Garmin discussion group. We talk all the
                            > time about
                            > > different map software, and they do make most of them
                            > to download to
                            > > all brands of GPS unless it is aimed at their own
                            > brand of GPS.
                            > > National Geographic works fine on most brands, also if
                            > you zoom in on
                            > > the Mapsource software it does show the JMT, and
                            > clicking on the trail
                            > > on the Mapsource map is how I got the original GPS
                            > coordinates that
                            > > everyone has been using. They were exported to the
                            > spreadsheets and
                            > > thus my hike plans. The problems with any brand of map
                            > is that mother
                            > > nature is constantly changing mother earth, so things
                            > are not always
                            > > in the same location as when the map was made
                            > sometimes several years
                            > > before you use it. Even if your coordinates were
                            > perfect, and you had
                            > > an accurate GPS unit with 4 or more satellites being
                            > picked up, you
                            > > still may be off by a hundred feet, because civilians
                            > do not have
                            > > military grade accuracy on our GPS units.
                            > >
                            > > I guess what brought all of this up is, be careful not
                            > to cross a
                            > > frozen lake this time of year, you could die.
                            > >
                            > > Has anyone ever tried to download the coordinates of
                            > of one of our
                            > > spreadsheets back into map software? I would hate to
                            > have to manually
                            > > enter the data for the thousands of little trail
                            > markers that enable
                            > > you to follow the trail. I know Fred did it into
                            > Google Earth, Fred if
                            > > you are out there did you have to enter the waypoints
                            > one at a time,
                            > > or was it a mass download?
                            > >
                            > > Planning is half the fun
                            > > Kevin Aston
                            > > www.kevinaston.com
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin
                            > <roleigh@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Kevin makes very good points, remember the
                            > waypoints in the Wenk
                            > > spreadsheet include scenic waypoints on the trail and
                            > campsites off
                            > > the trail. A specific column in the sheet indicates
                            > if the waypoint
                            > > is specific to a campsite or not.
                            > > >
                            > > > What I hate is that unlike the high sierra trail,
                            > which is clearly
                            > > marked on the garmin mapsource software, the entire
                            > length of the john
                            > > muir trail is not marked clearly on the garmin
                            > mapsource software. It
                            > > appears to be marked on the National Geographic topo
                            > software but you
                            > > can't download maps from that software to a garmin
                            > device.
                            > > >
                            > > > question to list readers -- anyone have a gps
                            > they love they've
                            > > downloaded the National Geographic top software for
                            > california that
                            > > marks the JMT trail and can see the dotted lines
                            > labeled "JMT" or
                            > > "John Muir Trail" on the GPS?
                            > > >
                            > > > Kevin Aston <kevin@> wrote:
                            > A main
                            > > concern when hiking in snowy conditions is to make
                            > sure that
                            > > > you do not cross any lakes. Rumor has it some
                            > hikers have fallen
                            > > > through the ice in past years. Not being able to
                            > see the trail will
                            > > > complicate it some. GPSs vary the distances
                            > according to the accuracy
                            > > > that you GPS has, plus the accuracy of the
                            > person/GPS who created the
                            > > > coordinates. Some are hundreds of feet off
                            > depending on how many
                            > > > satellites you are in contact with, and how good
                            > the map maker was. I
                            > > > have seen several things on my GPS that were not
                            > there in person. Be
                            > > > careful, but the more references you have the
                            > safer you will be. You
                            > > > can download Garmin Mapsource waypoints from my
                            > site at
                            > > > http://www.kevinaston.com/JMTSpreadsheet.html
                            > You may wish to
                            > compare
                            > > > mine listed with those below and get the best
                            > possible readings.
                            > > >
                            > > > Good Luck Be Safe
                            > > > Kevin
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh
                            > Martin <roleigh@>
                            > wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Just a reminder of the spreadsheet file of
                            > about 300 GPS / waypoint
                            > > > (north-to-south and south-to-north mileage
                            > offsets) available for JMT
                            > > > hikers at
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > http://www.whitneyportalstore.com/data/EWenk_JMT.htm
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Please note, this file has three
                            > spreadsheet tabs -- navigate to
                            > > > each one otherwise you'll be confused
                            > thinking the file is
                            > nothing but
                            > > > an advertisement for the JMT book by Elizabeth
                            > Wenk. The file is
                            > > > massively valuable for navigating the JMT trail.
                            > By sorting the
                            > > > waypoint page by north to south or south to
                            > north, you'll nicely
                            > > > intermix scenic waypoints and camp sights in the
                            > sequence you'll be
                            > > > walking by them.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > khofso <khofso@> wrote:
                            > > > > I'll let others comment on
                            > stream crossings, the need for
                            > > > crampons
                            > > > > (or not) and cold temperatures. My main
                            > concern is that you
                            > need to
                            > > > > have very good navigation skills.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > The JMT is a summer trail - there are no
                            > winter markings. We
                            > had new
                            > > > > snow over at elevations over 8000 feet this
                            > past weekend. Some
                            > > trails
                            > > > > may have fresh footprints to follow, others
                            > not.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Starting from Yosemite Valley I anticipate
                            > you'd hit snow covered
                            > > > > trails starting on your second day around
                            > the area of Sunrise High
                            > > > > Sierra Camp.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > For photos of current conditions here are
                            > some photos I found.
                            > > > > From Tioga Road over Memorial Day weekend:
                            > > > >
                            > http://www.southforkriver.net/photos/Tioga_Pass/index.html
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Yosemite a couple of weeks ago:
                            > > > > http://maverick.zenfolio.com/p767281031
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com,
                            > "Nabeel Alsalam"
                            > > > > <nabeel.alsalam@> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > My son, a friend of his, and I plan to
                            > hike the JMT between
                            > June 2
                            > > > > and June
                            > > > > > 25. (I'll be trading with the
                            > friend halfway down the trail at
                            > > > > South
                            > > > > > Lake.)
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > The question is what we should expect
                            > with respect to snow,
                            > cold,
                            > > > > and
                            > > > > > streams and how should we prepare to
                            > deal with it. I've been
                            > > > > looking at
                            > > > > > all the data that I can, but I
                            > don't have the experience to
                            > really
                            > > > > interpret
                            > > > > > it. I'm hoping some of you can
                            > help.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > My current guess is that we'll run
                            > into snow but it'll be
                            > here and
                            > > > > there and
                            > > > > > that in some areas it'll be slushy
                            > and in other areas crusty.
                            > I'm
                            > > > > assuming
                            > > > > > that we don't need snowshoes but
                            > that we might run into slick
                            > icy
                            > > > > areas that
                            > > > > > are tough climbs and maybe carrying
                            > crampons would be advisable.
                            > > > > What do
                            > > > > > you think?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I'm very uncertain about what to
                            > expect at the stream crossings.
                            > > > > The
                            > > > > > streams might be raging as we are
                            > probably at the height of the
                            > > > > spring melt.
                            > > > > > What do you think? Will they be tough
                            > but doable? Should we take
                            > > > > a 100
                            > > > > > feet of rope?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > From this
                            > http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryDaily?CBT it
                            > > > > seems that
                            > > > > > Crabtree Meadows has no snow but the
                            > temperatures are ridiculous
                            > > > > varying
                            > > > > > from -40 lows to low single digit and
                            > low teens for highs. Wow!
                            > > > > Are
                            > > > > > those numbers credible?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > The Yosemite area forecast for 8,000
                            > feet is for lows in the low
                            > > > > 30s and
                            > > > > > highs in the 50s. At 9,500 feet the
                            > temperatures seem to be
                            > > > > about 5
                            > > > > > degrees lower. At 12,500 feet the
                            > temperatures drop in to the
                            > > > > lower 20s
                            > > > > > and don't rise above the lower
                            > 40s. Those temperatures don't
                            > > > > sound too
                            > > > > > bad, but do we need to be prepared for
                            > a really really cold
                            > spell,
                            > > > > i.e. sub
                            > > > > > zero for a significant period.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > From this
                            > http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryDaily?BSH it
                            > > > > seems that
                            > > > > > Bishop Pass has 20" of snow but
                            > it have very little water
                            > content
                            > > > > compared
                            > > > > > to earlier in the month. Does that
                            > mean it is light and fluffy?
                            > > > > Temperature
                            > > > > > is cold but reasonable varying from
                            > lows in the 20s to highs in
                            > > the
                            > > > > 30s.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > According to the (rarely updated)
                            > trail conditions page the snow
                            > > > > level is in
                            > > > > > the 7,000 to 8,000 range. That
                            > doesn't tell me much.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I appreciate any words of wisdom.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message
                            > have been removed]
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have
                            > been removed]
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                            > removed]
                            > > >
                            > >
                          • akunkle99
                            I like Yaktrax ice cleats. They aren t really crampons, so you wouldn t want them for serious mountaineering, but they re great for getting across the
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jun 2, 2008
                              I like Yaktrax ice cleats. They aren't really crampons, so you
                              wouldn't want them for serious mountaineering, but they're great for
                              getting across the occasional patch of ice.



                              --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > What's recommended for ultralight crampons? especially for
                              contingency purposes when hiking in late July/early August in the
                              High Sierras?
                              >
                              > Nabeel Alsalam <nabeel.alsalam@...> wrote: Thanks. I'm
                              researching crampons now.
                              >
                              > A great adventure that I shared with my 7-year-old daughter in
                              Glacier NP in
                              > July, and that we both still remember almost 20 years later was a
                              little
                              > dayhike up a ravine, over a pass (Syah, I think), and down a
                              valley, both on
                              > the Going to the Sun road. The family was due to meet us at the
                              end, so
                              > turning back hard to do.
                              >
                              > Our first obstacle was the ice sheet at the top of the pass and
                              descending
                              > down the other side at an ever increasing angle. I put her on my
                              shoulder
                              > and grabbed two sharp rocks in my hands and started down digging my
                              heels
                              > into the ice as best I could, but twice I slipped and starting
                              sliding down
                              > fast and had to turn over and dig the rocks in with her still on my
                              > shoulders to brake my slide. I can see the value of crampons.
                              >
                              > Our second obstacle was a big horn sheet on the trail who felt very
                              > territorial and did not want us to pass. We found a way around.
                              >
                              > All the while, we were listened to the bells on our boots tingle as
                              we
                              > walked so that we would not surprise any Grizzlies. A couple had
                              been
                              > mauled earlier in the week when they surprised a mom and her cubs.
                              >
                              > Thanks for the advice.
                              >
                              > On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 4:14 PM, Ralph Alcorn <rbalcorn@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > Most Pacific Crest Trail thru hikers look at June 15th as the
                              first date
                              > > to
                              > > enter the Sierras from the south. I know three went thru a couple
                              of weeks
                              > > ago, but since then there has been a turn in the weather, and
                              there was
                              > > snow
                              > > down to 6000 feet. I plan to do a short hike in the southern
                              sierra south
                              > > of
                              > > Whitney, and have delayed it till June 22 to let the snow melt.
                              Check out
                              > > the early PCT hiker's photos: http://www.pcrexp.com/
                              > >
                              http://www.flickr.com/photos/clairesgallery/sets/72157605239052741/
                              > >
                              > > The PCT hikers will also be carrying crampons and ice axes. I
                              recommend the
                              > > same. The stream crossings will be hairy. From my jmt web page:
                              > >
                              > > Early Season Fording Techniques:
                              > >
                              > > If you are a PCTer, you will have a number of fast deep crossings
                              requiring
                              > > extreme caution. Evolution Creek is the deepest, sometimes chest
                              high at
                              > > the normal crossing point, but not very fast. Others are not as
                              deep but
                              > > fast and dangerous. Usually best to cross in early morning - may
                              be 12
                              > > inches lower than late afternoon. Tyndall Creek, Bear Creek,
                              south fork of
                              > > Kings River, Rush Creek, Kerrick Canyon (northern Yosemite) are
                              some of the
                              > > others. Consensus from PCT-L forum is to use hiking poles or
                              sticks to get
                              > > 4
                              > > points of contact, keep body facing the opposite shore, angle
                              upstream to
                              > > keep the force of water from collapsing your knees, wear
                              synthetic fast
                              > > drying clothes, take off long pants, unfasten waist belt. If
                              shoes and
                              > > boots
                              > > are already wet leave them on. Walk between rocks, not on them.
                              If wearing
                              > > trail runners leave them on - some people take socks off. During
                              dry
                              > > weather
                              > > if you have to cross in your boots, remove socks and boot liners,
                              wipe out
                              > > boots after crossing and reinsert liners. You will walk dry
                              quickly. You
                              > > need something to protect your feet (I have gone barefoot in
                              midsummer and
                              > > it is painful. I have carried lightweight kayak shoes for camp
                              and river
                              > > crossing - better than bare feet. I don't want the weight penalty
                              of
                              > > Tevas).
                              > > With normal sierra weather you will dry as you walk fairly soon.
                              If
                              > > chilly, put on fleece after crossing.
                              > >
                              > > I posted a question about stream crossings on the pct forum a few
                              years
                              > > ago,
                              > > and the consensus was that use of a rope was dangerous - too easy
                              to get
                              > > caught in it. With a large group and the rope well anchored on
                              each side it
                              > > might be ok.
                              > >
                              > > --
                              > > Ralph Alcorn
                              > > http://www.backpack45.com/camino2.html
                              > > Shepherd Canyon books, Publisher of
                              > > We're in the Mountains, Not Over the Hill: Tales and Tips from
                              Seasoned
                              > > Women Backpackers
                              > > and
                              > > Camino Chronicle: Walking to Santiago
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • Barbara Karagosian
                              Dear Roleigh, I notice in Elizabeth Wenk s book the coordinates are NAD27, and on the spreadsheet she has these and also NAD83, and you use NAD83 on your
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jan 16, 2009
                                Dear Roleigh, I notice in Elizabeth Wenk's book the coordinates are NAD27,
                                and on the spreadsheet she has these and also NAD83, and you use NAD83 on
                                your spreadsheet. I've read that the 83 is more accurate. Please could you
                                explain why you chose that system? Thanks, Barbara

                                > > --- In johnmuirtrail@ <mailto:johnmuirtrail%40yahoogroups.com>
                                yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin
                                > <roleigh@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Kevin makes very good points, remember the
                                > waypoints in the Wenk
                                > > spreadsheet include scenic waypoints on the trail and
                                > campsites off
                                > > the trail. A specific column in the sheet indicates
                                > if the waypoint
                                > > is specific to a campsite or not.





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                              • Roleigh Martin
                                Dear Barbara, Thank you for your email. I choosed the Nad83 because my GPS has that. I d go with one that is both on her spreadsheet and supported by your
                                Message 15 of 15 , Jan 16, 2009
                                  Dear Barbara,

                                  Thank you for your email.

                                  I choosed the Nad83 because my GPS has that. I'd go with one that is both
                                  on her spreadsheet and supported by your GPS. If there are other reasons,
                                  I've long forgotten them. Sorry. I'm glad you emailed as I changed to the
                                  ultralight GPS (Foretrex 101 by Garmin) and I need to find out if it
                                  supports Nad83.

                                  Will you be on the JMT between July 20 and Aug 16 next summer (2009)? I
                                  will be.

                                  Roleigh

                                  On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 12:41 AM, Barbara Karagosian <barbara@...>wrote:

                                  > Dear Roleigh, I notice in Elizabeth Wenk's book the coordinates are NAD27,
                                  > and on the spreadsheet she has these and also NAD83, and you use NAD83 on
                                  > your spreadsheet. I've read that the 83 is more accurate. Please could
                                  > you
                                  > explain why you chose that system? Thanks, Barbara
                                  >
                                  > > > --- In johnmuirtrail@ <mailto:johnmuirtrail%40yahoogroups.com<johnmuirtrail%2540yahoogroups.com>
                                  > >
                                  > yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin
                                  > > <roleigh@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Kevin makes very good points, remember the
                                  > > waypoints in the Wenk
                                  > > > spreadsheet include scenic waypoints on the trail and
                                  > > campsites off
                                  > > > the trail. A specific column in the sheet indicates
                                  > > if the waypoint
                                  > > > is specific to a campsite or not.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


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