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Re: [John Muir Trail] wag bags

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  • John Ladd
    ... I agree. I tend to take one on every trip, even if I am not going thru a Wag-required section. I probably only use it one trip out of four, but sometimes
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 1, 2011
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      On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 10:21 AM, judithsmcguire <judithsmcguire@...> wrote:
       

      ... I LIKE the wag bags. So much less trouble than finding the right spot, digging a hole the right depth, stuffing used TP in a ziplok, and packing that out.


      I agree.  I tend to take one on every trip, even if I am not going thru a Wag-required section.  I probably only use it one trip out of four, but sometimes you get the urge at a place where you just can't find an adequate place, at least not as quickly as nature is requiring.  It's true they are heavy when full, but on trips where they aren't needed, they add minimal weight.

      John
    • Mark Schultz
      Some percentage of people will just not comply with a pack-out poop program, no not matter what. Its just human nature when humans are in nature. There will
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 1, 2011
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        Some percentage of people will just not comply with a pack-out poop program, no not matter what. Its just human nature when humans are in nature. There will be bags on the trail and poop behind rocks.

        You might prefer a wag bag over a cat hole, but if you had a choice of using a solar powered toilet with privacy and hand sanitizer, would you still choose a wag bag and then carry an extra pound of crap in your backpack? I think not, but the wag bag option is always available to anyone even if they reinstalled the toilets.


        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "judithsmcguire" <judithsmcguire@...> wrote:
        >
        > I hate to be a party pooper (I couldn't resist) but I LIKE the wag bags. So much less trouble than finding the right spot, digging a hole the right depth, stuffing used TP in a ziplok, and packing that out. Last year I was happy to use the wag bag on my way down from Whitney as I finished the JMT. What I DIDN'T enjoy was seeing someone else's wag bag by the side of the trail. Normally I pick up litter but I was NOT going to carry out that litter. Where do some people get their manners?
        > Judy McGuire
        >
      • targetdoggmechanic
        Agreed. But, if they really want to get serious about the issue, require people to only be able to hike Whitney from the west, either from SEKI (HST),
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 1, 2011
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          Agreed. But, if they really want to get serious about the issue, require people to only be able to hike Whitney from the west, either from SEKI (HST), Horseshoe Mdws, or the JMT. You can only EXIT on the portal trail. This would turn away a lot of the crowds that try to do this trip in only 1 or 2 days and leave it to the more serious hikers who probably care a lot more about nature preservation, most of them anyways. Another option would be to permanently close trail camp--the place is disgusting anyways. I know if I "have to go" it is usually when I am stopped for the day camping somewhere. No one will ever be able to enforce the non-conforming poopers to do the right thing, so keeping people out of the rocky areas where there is no dirt would be a good option...yet still pass out the wag bags at Crabtree for those that cannot make it up and over Whitney to the portal without "going". Sure some will still refuse and crap right on top of a granite slab and leave the TP there with it, but it would be a whole lot less.

          At woods creek bridge the latrine there has a metal bucket to burn your TP in. If we had some more of those every now and then, especially in the really rocky areas, it might help for those that refuse to carry it out as well, as this is impossible to really enforce unless you are caught in the act. I'd be interested to see how many infractions rangers write up for this. If I was a ranger, I would gladly maintain these buckets instead of picking up other peoples toilet paper bouquets to carry out myself.

          --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Schultz" <hikesierranevada@...> wrote:
          >
          > Some percentage of people will just not comply with a pack-out poop program, no not matter what. Its just human nature when humans are in nature. There will be bags on the trail and poop behind rocks.
        • judithsmcguire
          I agree that for me a privy would be better but who gets to maintain and clean out the privy? Solar privies are great in concept but often don t work as
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 2, 2011
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            I agree that for me a privy would be better but who gets to maintain and clean out the privy? Solar privies are great in concept but often don't work as intended. On the Wonderland Trail this year (granted all but one weren't solar) there are privies at every campsite. I was really happy with this until we saw a Park Ranger humping out a barrel of human waste he had dug out of one of the privies. My convenience was his disgusting burden. Is this fair? Why can't people learn to practice Leave No Trace! Selfishness creates a public nuisance.

            Judy McGuire



            --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Schultz" <hikesierranevada@...> wrote:
            >
            > Some percentage of people will just not comply with a pack-out poop program, no not matter what. Its just human nature when humans are in nature. There will be bags on the trail and poop behind rocks.
            >
            > You might prefer a wag bag over a cat hole, but if you had a choice of using a solar powered toilet with privacy and hand sanitizer, would you still choose a wag bag and then carry an extra pound of crap in your backpack? I think not, but the wag bag option is always available to anyone even if they reinstalled the toilets.
            >
            >
            > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "judithsmcguire" <judithsmcguire@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I hate to be a party pooper (I couldn't resist) but I LIKE the wag bags. So much less trouble than finding the right spot, digging a hole the right depth, stuffing used TP in a ziplok, and packing that out. Last year I was happy to use the wag bag on my way down from Whitney as I finished the JMT. What I DIDN'T enjoy was seeing someone else's wag bag by the side of the trail. Normally I pick up litter but I was NOT going to carry out that litter. Where do some people get their manners?
            > > Judy McGuire
            > >
            >
          • Ewa Bialkowski
            Sometimes I wish, Yahoo groups would have Facebook type like button. So Judy, I like your posts. Ewa
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 2, 2011
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              Sometimes I wish, Yahoo groups would have Facebook type "like" button. So Judy, I like your posts.

              Ewa



              On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 1:10 PM, judithsmcguire <judithsmcguire@...> wrote:
               


              I agree that for me a privy would be better but who gets to maintain and clean out the privy? Solar privies are great in concept but often don't work as intended. On the Wonderland Trail this year (granted all but one weren't solar) there are privies at every campsite. I was really happy with this until we saw a Park Ranger humping out a barrel of human waste he had dug out of one of the privies. My convenience was his disgusting burden. Is this fair? Why can't people learn to practice Leave No Trace! Selfishness creates a public nuisance.

              Judy McGuire


              > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "judithsmcguire" <judithsmcguire@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I hate to be a party pooper (I couldn't resist) but I LIKE the wag bags. So much less trouble than finding the right spot, digging a hole the right depth, stuffing used TP in a ziplok, and packing that out. Last year I was happy to use the wag bag on my way down from Whitney as I finished the JMT. What I DIDN'T enjoy was seeing someone else's wag bag by the side of the trail. Normally I pick up litter but I was NOT going to carry out that litter. Where do some people get their manners?
              > > Judy McGuire
              > >
              >


            • Roleigh Martin
              It became a matter of preventing loss of life when they decided to abandon the Solar Privy at the basecamp for Mt. Whitney. It was written up in the NY Times,
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 2, 2011
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                It became a matter of preventing loss of life when they decided to abandon the Solar Privy at the basecamp for Mt. Whitney.  It was written up in the NY Times, I remember.  They'd use a helicopter to do the job and sometimes the landing and takeoff became too risky. 

                http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/us/05whitney.html

                "High-altitude sanitation is too hazardous a business. Helicopters must make regular journeys up the steep-walled canyons in tricky winds while rangers in hazmat suits wait below to tie 250-pound bags or barrels of waste onto a long line dangling below the aircraft. "

                "In the past, keeping the privies on the eastern side of the Inyo National Forest clean between helicopter flights was a huge headache."

                "

                “If you didn’t clean the outhouse regularly, it was a cascading nightmare,” said Garry Oye, the Inyo National Forest district ranger who put the new Whitney regimen into place.

                But with 300 or more people on the trail each day, it was hard to do. “Can you keep your bathroom clean if 400 of your closest friends go through there each day?” Mr. Oye asked."



                On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 4:10 PM, judithsmcguire <judithsmcguire@...> wrote:
                 


                I agree that for me a privy would be better but who gets to maintain and clean out the privy? Solar privies are great in concept but often don't work as intended. On the Wonderland Trail this year (granted all but one weren't solar) there are privies at every campsite. I was really happy with this until we saw a Park Ranger humping out a barrel of human waste he had dug out of one of the privies. My convenience was his disgusting burden. Is this fair? Why can't people learn to practice Leave No Trace! Selfishness creates a public nuisance.

                Judy McGuire


                --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Schultz" <hikesierranevada@...> wrote:
                >
                > Some percentage of people will just not comply with a pack-out poop program, no not matter what. Its just human nature when humans are in nature. There will be bags on the trail and poop behind rocks.
                >
                > You might prefer a wag bag over a cat hole, but if you had a choice of using a solar powered toilet with privacy and hand sanitizer, would you still choose a wag bag and then carry an extra pound of crap in your backpack? I think not, but the wag bag option is always available to anyone even if they reinstalled the toilets.
                >
                >
                > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "judithsmcguire" <judithsmcguire@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I hate to be a party pooper (I couldn't resist) but I LIKE the wag bags. So much less trouble than finding the right spot, digging a hole the right depth, stuffing used TP in a ziplok, and packing that out. Last year I was happy to use the wag bag on my way down from Whitney as I finished the JMT. What I DIDN'T enjoy was seeing someone else's wag bag by the side of the trail. Normally I pick up litter but I was NOT going to carry out that litter. Where do some people get their manners?
                > > Judy McGuire
                > >
                >


              • Kim Fishburn
                Flying to the top of Mt Whitney isn t easy for a helicopter. They usually call out the California national guard since they have some choppers with more power.
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 2, 2011
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                  Flying to the top of Mt Whitney isn't easy for a helicopter. They usually call out the California national guard since they have some choppers with more power. I've seen Marine helicopters fly over Sonora Pass before( I think its about 9600 ft for the pass). According to FAA regs they can do this without using oxygen since they're only above 10,000 ft for a short time. I don't remember what the requirements are.


                  From: Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...>
                  To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2011 4:29 PM
                  Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Re: wag bags

                   
                  It became a matter of preventing loss of life when they decided to abandon the Solar Privy at the basecamp for Mt. Whitney.  It was written up in the NY Times, I remember.  They'd use a helicopter to do the job and sometimes the landing and takeoff became too risky. 

                  http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/us/05whitney.html

                  "High-altitude sanitation is too hazardous a business. Helicopters must make regular journeys up the steep-walled canyons in tricky winds while rangers in hazmat suits wait below to tie 250-pound bags or barrels of waste onto a long line dangling below the aircraft. "

                  "In the past, keeping the privies on the eastern side of the Inyo National Forest clean between helicopter flights was a huge headache."

                  "
                  “If you didn’t clean the outhouse regularly, it was a cascading nightmare,” said Garry Oye, the Inyo National Forest district ranger who put the new Whitney regimen into place.
                  But with 300 or more people on the trail each day, it was hard to do. “Can you keep your bathroom clean if 400 of your closest friends go through there each day?” Mr. Oye asked."


                  On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 4:10 PM, judithsmcguire <judithsmcguire@...> wrote:
                   

                  I agree that for me a privy would be better but who gets to maintain and clean out the privy? Solar privies are great in concept but often don't work as intended. On the Wonderland Trail this year (granted all but one weren't solar) there are privies at every campsite. I was really happy with this until we saw a Park Ranger humping out a barrel of human waste he had dug out of one of the privies. My convenience was his disgusting burden. Is this fair? Why can't people learn to practice Leave No Trace! Selfishness creates a public nuisance.

                  Judy McGuire

                  --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Schultz" <hikesierranevada@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Some percentage of people will just not comply with a pack-out poop program, no not matter what. Its just human nature when humans are in nature. There will be bags on the trail and poop behind rocks.
                  >
                  > You might prefer a wag bag over a cat hole, but if you had a choice of using a solar powered toilet with privacy and hand sanitizer, would you still choose a wag bag and then carry an extra pound of crap in your backpack? I think not, but the wag bag option is always available to anyone even if they reinstalled the toilets.
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "judithsmcguire" <judithsmcguire@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I hate to be a party pooper (I couldn't resist) but I LIKE the wag bags. So much less trouble than finding the right spot, digging a hole the right depth, stuffing used TP in a ziplok, and packing that out. Last year I was happy to use the wag bag on my way down from Whitney as I finished the JMT. What I DIDN'T enjoy was seeing someone else's wag bag by the side of the trail. Normally I pick up litter but I was NOT going to carry out that litter. Where do some people get their manners?
                  > > Judy McGuire
                  > >
                  >




                • Jgoring1
                  Red herring. Packing it all out via mule or llama would be safer and cheaper than the helicopter. Via iPad ... Red herring. Packing it all out via mule or
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 2, 2011
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                    Red herring.  Packing it all out via mule or llama would be safer and cheaper than the helicopter.

                    Via iPad

                  • John Ladd
                    ... Others will know this better than I, but I would guess that snow and ice would make the trail from Whitney Portal to the summit impassible for pack animals
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 3, 2011
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                      On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 10:13 PM, Jgoring1 <jgoring1@...> wrote:
                       

                      Red herring.  Packing it all out via mule or llama would be safer and cheaper than the helicopter.


                      Others will know this better than I, but I would guess that snow and ice would make the trail from Whitney Portal to the summit impassible for pack animals 9 or more months per year.

                      John Ladd
                    • John
                      Not to mention the not so insignificant trail impact and safety issues involved with packing (especially on such a busy trail). It s not necessarily cheaper
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 3, 2011
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                        Not to mention the not so insignificant trail impact and safety issues involved with packing (especially on such a busy trail). It's not necessarily cheaper either.

                        Cheapest and safest way to get it out of the backcountry; have the people pack it out.

                        JD
                        Walk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trail
                        www.johndittli.com


                        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 10:13 PM, Jgoring1 <jgoring1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > **
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Red herring. Packing it all out via mule or llama would be safer and
                        > > cheaper than the helicopter.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > Others will know this better than I, but I would guess that snow and ice
                        > would make the trail from Whitney Portal to the summit impassible for pack
                        > animals 9 or more months per year.
                        >
                        > John Ladd
                        >
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