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Re: [John Muir Trail] another one . . . be careful . . .

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  • Mark Liechty
    You guys are so negative. Don t you see that North Face has been working on this deal for years. They can do a deal with REI in a mini-mart fashion and let
    Message 1 of 16 , Aug 1, 2011
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      You guys are so negative.   Don't you see that North Face has been working on this deal for years.  They can do a deal with REI in a mini-mart fashion and let you eat lunch without worrying about the gun-totin bears.

      On Aug 1, 2011, at 4:39 PM, robert shattuck wrote:



      "I bet the day will come when the park service will decide to remove the cables permanently." 

       it's coming . . . the Oracle*Tram and a Starbucks on the top. 

      *or google, K-mart, Microsoft . . . 


    • dax@daxcastro.com
      How about simply put something with more traction on the stone in the area where the cables are? Sticky grip tape.. Dax ... Subject: RE: [John Muir Trail]
      Message 2 of 16 , Aug 1, 2011
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        How about simply put something with more traction on the stone in the area where the cables are? Sticky grip tape..

        Dax

        -------- Original Message --------
        Subject: RE: [John Muir Trail] another one . . . be careful . . .
        From: robert shattuck <bobolonius@...>
        Date: Mon, August 01, 2011 4:39 pm
        To: <johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com>

         
        "I bet the day will come when the park service will decide to remove the cables permanently." 

         it's coming . . . the Oracle*Tram and a Starbucks on the top. 

        *or google, K-mart, Microsoft . . . 



        http://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480




        To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
        From: bill@...
        Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:25:16 -0700
        Subject: RE: [John Muir Trail] another one . . . be careful . . .

         

         
        I believe the granite between the cables is slowly getting worn smoother each year with all the foot traffic making accidents like this more likely. I used to think people traveling outside the cables were crazy. Now I think they may be on to something. I bet there's quite a bit more traction out there.
         
        I bet the day will come when the park service will decide to remove the cables permanently.
         
        - Bill
         

      • Barbara Karagosian
        Very sad. And why would you be attempting Half Dome when there are storms in the area? And why would the ranger checking permits at the shoulder not close it
        Message 3 of 16 , Aug 1, 2011
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          Very sad. And why would you be attempting Half Dome when there are storms in the area?  And why would the ranger checking permits at the shoulder not close it in such weather. Or is that nor their responsibility?  Yikes. 

          Barbara
          Typos by iPad

          On Aug 1, 2011, at 3:35 PM, robert shattuck <bobolonius@...> wrote:

        • robert shattuck
          without worrying about the gun-totin bears. Don t you mean, gun-toting bores . . . anyway . . . yeah, the NF . . . but come on . . . My guess would really
          Message 4 of 16 , Aug 1, 2011
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            "without worrying about the gun-totin bears."


            Don't you mean, "gun-toting bores" . . . anyway . . . yeah, the NF . . . but come on . . . My guess would really be the Disney Corp––they missed out on turning Mineral King into a wild ride back in the 60's . . . imagine getting towed to the top of HD . . . getting your pic taken with Yogi Bear (courtesy of hanna-barbera) . . . or there could be a "face-off" between Yogi and smokey and then you'd jump into your logger-coaster and scream down the former cable section, slam a hard right and race down,  passing through both falls before hitting the valley and coasting to a stop in front of the Awahnee . . . 

            http://jimhillmedia.com/editor_in_chief1/b/jim_hill/archive/2003/05/26/176.aspx

            The North Face, of course, would have the contract to supply (daily) thousands of plastic ponchos with their logo on them, of course, so that you won't get wet as you pass by the falls, screaming as you catch a glimpse of some crazy stunt man shooting off the edge of the swelling Nevada 
            falls (don't worry, he's on a thin tether) screaming, "Hey check me ouuuuu . . . " 

            And they could sell little sections of the old cables. 


            okay . . .guess I'll go back to field strippin' my PPK. 


            BOB


            http://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480




            To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
            From: mlaccs@...
            Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:46:56 -0700
            Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] another one . . . be careful . . .

             
            You guys are so negative.   Don't you see that North Face has been working on this deal for years.  They can do a deal with REI in a mini-mart fashion and let you eat lunch without worrying about the gun-totin bears.

            On Aug 1, 2011, at 4:39 PM, robert shattuck wrote:



            "I bet the day will come when the park service will decide to remove the cables permanently." 

             it's coming . . . the Oracle*Tram and a Starbucks on the top. 

            *or google, K-mart, Microsoft . . . 



          • speedcenter2001
            remove the cables, problem solved. Put a few cemented bolt anchors up there instead, so that climbers who bring ropes can be safe. That beats traction aids. I
            Message 5 of 16 , Aug 2, 2011
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              remove the cables, problem solved. Put a few cemented bolt anchors up there instead, so that climbers who bring ropes can be safe. That beats traction aids.

              I am always amazed to see people use nothing more than a pair of gloves found on a pile below the cables as their only safety device, when it takes nothing more than a rope and two carabiners to be 100% safe on the cables. you can go fancy and even use a harness, gut I guess that part would require thinking outside the box and not following the herd.


              these were the conditions when the accident happened - some people clearly used their good judgement and turned around:

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Abjc0u0QBOs
            • targetdoggmechanic
              According to the NPS there was a storm the morning of her ascent and during the time she was trying to come down the cables. Makes you wonder if she knew the
              Message 6 of 16 , Aug 2, 2011
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                According to the NPS there was a storm the morning of her ascent and during the time she was trying to come down the cables. Makes you wonder if she knew the risks she was getting into, but took a chance just to avoid the hassle of trying to get another permit at a later time to re-attempt it. Definitely a poor judgement call and tragic event outcome.

                I'd say get rid of the cables and require a mandatory rock skills completion course, do the cemented anchors that Peter suggests below, and do away with the strict 3rd party permits and just have everyone go through the NPS to get a permit. That way they could regulate the unfit/inexperienced hikers that attempt to do the dome.

                Or just leave the cables and require mandatory carabiners and tie-off ropes/lanyards (helmets?) as a safety precaution. To make it easier, maybe they could have a separate anchor cable off to the side or under the other cables, so you can still use the present cables to hold onto and pull yourself up while being tied off in case you fall or someone falls into you. They definitely need to improve a lot of aspects of the half dome climb.
              • Barbara Karagosian
                I used rope and 2 carabiners when I did, plus rock climbing shoes that I rented. A climber friend showed me how. I felt much safer knowing if I slipped and
                Message 7 of 16 , Aug 2, 2011
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                  I used rope and 2 carabiners when I did, plus rock climbing shoes that I rented. A climber friend showed me how.  I felt much safer knowing if I slipped and fell it wouldn't be very far.  I was clipped in at all times, including round cable stanchions. 

                  From that you tube it sounds like the ranger was telling people they could go up if they wanted but he wouldn't advise it.  And even tho it was a clear morning, storms were forecast thru out the Sierras.

                  Barbara
                  Typos by iPad

                  On Aug 2, 2011, at 10:54 AM, "targetdoggmechanic" <targetdoggmechanic@...> wrote:

                   

                  According to the NPS there was a storm the morning of her ascent and during the time she was trying to come down the cables. Makes you wonder if she knew the risks she was getting into, but took a chance just to avoid the hassle of trying to get another permit at a later time to re-attempt it. Definitely a poor judgement call and tragic event outcome.

                  I'd say get rid of the cables and require a mandatory rock skills completion course, do the cemented anchors that Peter suggests below, and do away with the strict 3rd party permits and just have everyone go through the NPS to get a permit. That way they could regulate the unfit/inexperienced hikers that attempt to do the dome.

                  Or just leave the cables and require mandatory carabiners and tie-off ropes/lanyards (helmets?) as a safety precaution. To make it easier, maybe they could have a separate anchor cable off to the side or under the other cables, so you can still use the present cables to hold onto and pull yourself up while being tied off in case you fall or someone falls into you. They definitely need to improve a lot of aspects of the half dome climb.

                • Madmxe@aol.com
                  I understand everyone is responsible for their own safety out there but if a ranger is on duty there he should be able to close it.
                  Message 8 of 16 , Aug 2, 2011
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                    I understand everyone is responsible for their own safety out there but if a ranger is on duty there he should be able to close it.
                     
                  • robert shattuck
                    I understand everyone is responsible for their own safety out there but if a ranger is on duty there he should be able to close it. Yeah, as much as those
                    Message 9 of 16 , Aug 2, 2011
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                      "I understand everyone is responsible for their own safety out there but if a ranger is on duty there he should be able to close it." 



                      Yeah, as much as those rangers love to enforce the rules and preach, I can't see why one would say, "sure, if you want to climb up there, go ahead." 


                      In all fairness though . . . she was trying to get down, wasn't she?  





                      (see, if we just had an elevator or tram then it would just be a simple matter of turning it off and throwing out the "closed" sign.)


                      BOB
                      http://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480




                      To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                      From: Madmxe@...
                      Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 14:20:48 -0400
                      Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] another one . . . be careful . . .

                       

                      I understand everyone is responsible for their own safety out there but if a ranger is on duty there he should be able to close it.
                       

                    • kenorlael
                      We ve been doing half-dome as a group every year for over a decade as part of a backpack trip fro t Meadows to the Valley, and have never had a problem with
                      Message 10 of 16 , Aug 2, 2011
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                        We've been doing half-dome as a group every year for over a decade as part of a backpack trip fro t Meadows to the Valley, and have never had a problem with the cables. The rock is a smooth in places, but between the cables and boards, if the rock is not wet from rain, you would actually have to work at it to fall. Some people clip into the cables, but it really isn't necessary (if you feel more secure that way - great). Mostly the challenge is psychological (although you do get a good cardio workout). For the past two years there has been a ranger at the base of the last section collecting quota tickets. (The quota tickets have dramatically improved the congestion that used to occur on the cables). Their standard line is that they cannot tell you what you may or may not do, but if there is rain happening or forecast, they advise against it.

                        We always watch the weather, and would never take the trip up if there was any chance of thunderstorm or if the rock was wet. There is a lot of information about that, although I suppose you could miss it.

                        Having said that, accidents do happen. Some freak movement could result in a fall and a fatality (as could happen anywhere on any trail). Overall, though, if you use good judgment, and you have the physical strength to do it - which you probably have if you can even get to the cables in the first place - half-dome is doable safely as is.

                        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, robert shattuck <bobolonius@...> wrote:
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                        > "I understand everyone is responsible for their own safety out there but if a ranger is on duty there he should be able to close it."
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                        > Yeah, as much as those rangers love to enforce the rules and preach, I can't see why one would say, "sure, if you want to climb up there, go ahead."
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                        > In all fairness though . . . she was trying to get down, wasn't she?
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                        > (see, if we just had an elevator or tram then it would just be a simple matter of turning it off and throwing out the "closed" sign.)
                        >
                        > BOBhttp://www.summitpost.org/plans/view_activity.php?post_id=6480
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                        > From: Madmxe@...
                        > Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 14:20:48 -0400
                        > Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] another one . . . be careful . . .
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                        > I understand everyone is responsible for their own safety out there but if
                        > a ranger is on duty there he should be able to close it.
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                      • Madmxe@aol.com
                        In a message dated 8/2/2011 11:29:46 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, bobolonius@hotmail.com writes: In all fairness though . . . she? was trying to get down,
                        Message 11 of 16 , Aug 2, 2011
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                          In a message dated 8/2/2011 11:29:46 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, bobolonius@... writes:
                          In all fairness though . . . she?   was trying to get down, wasn't she
                           Yea that's the way I understand it and that sucks.
                          I do not get why the ranger would not say NO do not go up there when the weather turns to crap. How would he feel if someone dies that he told to go ahead and go up? And judging from that U tube video the weather really turned to crap. 
                        • Herb
                          I am certainly sympathetic to the family that lost a loved one. But in my opinion it should not be up to the NPS to monitor trail usage and close trails when
                          Message 12 of 16 , Aug 2, 2011
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                            I am certainly sympathetic to the family that lost a loved one. But in my opinion it should not be up to the NPS to monitor trail usage and close trails when the weather turns. Yosemite is not Disneyland. The NPS is not there to guarantee our safety. We make the personal choice to go up a dome on cables or to cross a bridge under a waterfall, and have to bear the consequences of the risk we assume. If the NPS has the duty to provide a risk-free experience for the hiker then almost every trail will have to be closed.

                            What we need to take from this is that fatal accidents are a real possibility, and that we are solely responsible for our own safety.

                            Herb

                            --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Madmxe@... wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > In a message dated 8/2/2011 11:29:46 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                            > bobolonius@... writes:
                            >
                            > In all fairness though . . . she? was trying to get down, wasn't she
                            >
                            > Yea that's the way I understand it and that sucks.
                            > I do not get why the ranger would not say NO do not go up there when the
                            > weather turns to crap. How would he feel if someone dies that he told to go
                            > ahead and go up? And judging from that U tube video the weather really
                            > turned to crap.
                            >
                          • Barbara Karagosian
                            Yet the park does close trails if they re unsafe, for example the Mist Trail in winter, the 4 mile trail in winter (up to Glacier Point), the Mirror Lake trail
                            Message 13 of 16 , Aug 2, 2011
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                              Yet the park does close trails if they're unsafe, for example the Mist Trail in winter, the 4 mile trail in winter (up to Glacier Point), the Mirror Lake trail at one point after a rock fall.

                              Barbara
                              Typos by iPad

                              On Aug 2, 2011, at 4:09 PM, "Herb" <hstroh@...> wrote:

                               

                              I am certainly sympathetic to the family that lost a loved one. But in my opinion it should not be up to the NPS to monitor trail usage and close trails when the weather turns. Yosemite is not Disneyland. The NPS is not there to guarantee our safety. We make the personal choice to go up a dome on cables or to cross a bridge under a waterfall, and have to bear the consequences of the risk we assume. If the NPS has the duty to provide a risk-free experience for the hiker then almost every trail will have to be closed.

                              What we need to take from this is that fatal accidents are a real possibility, and that we are solely responsible for our own safety.

                              Herb

                              --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Madmxe@... wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > In a message dated 8/2/2011 11:29:46 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                              > bobolonius@... writes:
                              >
                              > In all fairness though . . . she? was trying to get down, wasn't she
                              >
                              > Yea that's the way I understand it and that sucks.
                              > I do not get why the ranger would not say NO do not go up there when the
                              > weather turns to crap. How would he feel if someone dies that he told to go
                              > ahead and go up? And judging from that U tube video the weather really
                              > turned to crap.
                              >

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