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[John Muir Trail] Re: New Profile Map plus food drops, landmarks, and 21 day iti

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  • hmdsierra
    Three of us started JMT in 1982 for a 25 day trip. We left the majority of the food at Red s Meadow so we could come out of Yosemite Valley light. We left
    Message 1 of 28 , Dec 1, 2007
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      Three of us started JMT in 1982 for a 25 day trip. We left the
      majority of the food at Red's Meadow so we could come out of Yosemite
      Valley light. We left the Valley on a Sunday and arrived at Red's
      Mdw. early Friday. At that point a bad knee dropped my friend out.
      We had intended to finish the trip from there without resupply. My
      then 10 year old son and I too enough for the next two weeks. My
      friend intended to meet us at Vidette and finish. His knee was still
      bothering him so he and his wife brought in enough for my son and I to
      finish. My friend met us at Vidette on Friday and picked us up at
      Whitney Portal the following Wednesday. The years since have brought
      some improvement in so things. Drink mix now uses Nutrasweet instead
      of sugar for a weight and volume saving. Same for Jell-O. I use
      about a pound a day per person. We cook on wood fires where possible
      and we cook instead of using freeze dry food. This requires a few
      pans which adds a bit of weight and takes some space. We eat well.

      --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Prapanna Smith <prapanna@...> wrote:
      >
      > On my JMT hike in 2005 my final resupply was at Muir Trail Ranch,
      > which is at about the
      > halfway point of the trail. Anyone should be able to finish a South-
      > bound hike from there
      > without a resupply. You can have several resupply points during the
      > first half of the hike,
      > and thus carry relatively lighter loads while you get acclimated and
      > in good shape. The
      > Muir Trail Ranch only charges about $40 to bring in a paint bucket
      > full of supplies.
      >
      > Prapanna
      >
      > On Dec 1, 2007, at 12:08 PM, Brian wrote:
      >
      > > My guide to what scale I used was dependant on making it fit on a
      > > regular sheet of paper, 8.5x11
      > >
      > > I didn't know you couldn't leave food at Charlotte Lake so I guess now
      > > you have to have a friend bring it in.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Patt gray
      Prapanna....A suggestion. . . .take a look at the Muir Trail Ranch web site..they have changed several of the perimeters for the Food Cache Resupply.tho I know
      Message 2 of 28 , Dec 1, 2007
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        Prapanna....A suggestion. . . .take a look at the Muir Trail Ranch web site..they have changed several of the perimeters for the Food Cache Resupply.tho I know the rationale for the changes I was unaware of them until recently. . . Patt

        rapanna Smith <prapanna@...> wrote:
        On my JMT hike in 2005 my final resupply was at Muir Trail Ranch,
        which is at about the
        halfway point of the trail. Anyone should be able to finish a South-
        bound hike from there
        without a resupply. You can have several resupply points during the
        first half of the hike,
        and thus carry relatively lighter loads while you get acclimated and
        in good shape. The
        Muir Trail Ranch only charges about $40 to bring in a paint bucket
        full of supplies.

        Prapanna

        On Dec 1, 2007, at 12:08 PM, Brian wrote:

        > My guide to what scale I used was dependant on making it fit on a
        > regular sheet of paper, 8.5x11
        >
        > I didn't know you couldn't leave food at Charlotte Lake so I guess now
        > you have to have a friend bring it in.
        >
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        Yahoo! Groups Links






        patt gray




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bob Bankhead
        see http://www.muirtrailranch.com/resupply.html price is now $50 ... From: Patt gray To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:05
        Message 3 of 28 , Dec 1, 2007
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          see http://www.muirtrailranch.com/resupply.html

          price is now $50



          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Patt gray
          To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:05 PM
          Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Re: New Profile Map plus food drops, landmarks, and 21 day itinerary.


          Prapanna....A suggestion. . . .take a look at the Muir Trail Ranch web site..they have changed several of the perimeters for the Food Cache Resupply.tho I know the rationale for the changes I was unaware of them until recently. . . Patt


          .


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Prapanna Smith
          Except for the price, the service looks pretty much like it did in 2005. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 28 , Dec 1, 2007
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            Except for the price, the service looks pretty much like it did in 2005.


            On Dec 1, 2007, at 5:05 PM, Patt gray wrote:

            > Prapanna....A suggestion. . . .take a look at the Muir Trail Ranch
            > web site..they have changed several of the perimeters for the Food
            > Cache Resupply.tho I know the rationale for the changes I was
            > unaware of them until recently. . . Patt
            >
            > rapanna Smith <prapanna@...> wrote:
            > On my JMT hike in 2005 my final resupply was at Muir Trail Ranch,
            > which is at about the
            > halfway point of the trail. Anyone should be able to finish a South-
            > bound hike from there
            > without a resupply. You can have several resupply points during the
            > first half of the hike,
            > and thus carry relatively lighter loads while you get acclimated and
            > in good shape. The
            > Muir Trail Ranch only charges about $40 to bring in a paint bucket
            > full of supplies.
            >
            > Prapanna
            >
            > On Dec 1, 2007, at 12:08 PM, Brian wrote:
            >
            > > My guide to what scale I used was dependant on making it fit on a
            > > regular sheet of paper, 8.5x11
            > >
            > > I didn't know you couldn't leave food at Charlotte Lake so I
            > guess now
            > > you have to have a friend bring it in.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > patt gray
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Roleigh Martin
            We re planning a 3 person partial - JMT hike for late July 2008 starting at Red Meadows on the JMT and going all the way down to Whitney Portal. Where does
            Message 5 of 28 , Dec 1, 2007
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              We're planning a 3 person partial - JMT hike for late July 2008 starting at Red Meadows on the JMT and going all the way down to Whitney Portal. Where does one apply for the permit and where does one physically show up to get the permit, or is it available by mail? If it has to be in person some distance away (like Toulumne Meadows), can it be gotten the afternoon the day before?

              Where do people advise parking the car for such a hike (at Whitney Portal or near Red Meadows)?

              PS -- how difficult is it to purchase a ride from the other end of where one parks to where one needs to get (after or before the trail depending on the answer to the above question)? I believe there is a bus from Bishop to Mammoth Lake but how does one get from Lone Pine to Bishop?

              PPS - how does one get to the Trailhead from Mammoth Lake to Red Meadows?

              Thanks!

              Thanks!


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Roleigh Martin
              Sorry for the double posting, I clicked cancel when I saw the redundant window and still Yahoo Mail sent it, go figure. [Non-text portions of this message have
              Message 6 of 28 , Dec 1, 2007
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                Sorry for the double posting, I clicked cancel when I saw the redundant window and still Yahoo Mail sent it, go figure.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • nekeel
                I can answer the PPS. From the Mammoth Lodge, you can buy a bus pass that will take you down to Reds Meadow. Approximately, 30 to 45 minutes by bus.
                Message 7 of 28 , Dec 1, 2007
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                  I can answer the PPS. From the Mammoth Lodge, you can buy a bus pass
                  that will take you down to Reds Meadow. Approximately, 30 to 45
                  minutes by bus. Remember that Reds Meadow is inside the Devils
                  Postpile National Monument area and you will be charged an entrance
                  fee for that also.

                  I am attaching a link to the National Park Service regarding the
                  shuttle buses:
                  http://www.nps.gov/depo/planyourvisit/feesandreservations.htm


                  --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Sorry for the double posting, I clicked cancel when I saw the
                  redundant window and still Yahoo Mail sent it, go figure.
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Paul
                  ... it all got deleted. I did this trail last year and have all your answers. Just give me a call 208-484-2718 Paul Walker in Idaho. ... starting at Red
                  Message 8 of 28 , Dec 1, 2007
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                    --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin <roleigh@...>
                    wrote:
                    >Damn I just typed out all the information that you needed and then
                    it all got deleted. I did this trail last year and have all your
                    answers. Just give me a call 208-484-2718 Paul Walker in Idaho.


                    > We're planning a 3 person partial - JMT hike for late July 2008
                    starting at Red Meadows on the JMT and going all the way down to
                    Whitney Portal. Where does one apply for the permit and where does
                    one physically show up to get the permit, or is it available by
                    mail? If it has to be in person some distance away (like Toulumne
                    Meadows), can it be gotten the afternoon the day before?
                    >
                    > Where do people advise parking the car for such a hike (at Whitney
                    Portal or near Red Meadows)?
                    >
                    > PS -- how difficult is it to purchase a ride from the other end of
                    where one parks to where one needs to get (after or before the trail
                    depending on the answer to the above question)? I believe there is
                    a bus from Bishop to Mammoth Lake but how does one get from Lone
                    Pine to Bishop?
                    >
                    > PPS - how does one get to the Trailhead from Mammoth Lake to Red
                    Meadows?
                    >
                    > Thanks!
                    >
                    > Thanks!
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • thomas taylor
                    Hi Paul, You can park your car at the Mammoth Inn Hotel I think that s its name) which is located right where you catch the shuttle to Reds. They charge $5.00
                    Message 9 of 28 , Dec 2, 2007
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                      Hi Paul,

                      You can park your car at the Mammoth Inn Hotel I think
                      that's its name) which is located right where you
                      catch the shuttle to Reds. They charge $5.00 and you
                      leave your keys with them in case they have to move
                      the car for some reason. Very safe. You can also
                      shower there for $5.00. They supply soap, towel and
                      shampoo.

                      You can reserve your permit in advance (recommended
                      for departing from popular spots like Reds in high
                      season like July) at:
                      <http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/inyo/passes/>

                      There is a fee for reserving ($5.00 or $15 - I forgot
                      but $15 for entering the Whitney Zone))and you can
                      pick up the permitt at the Mono Lake visitors visiting
                      center or their office in Bishop or Lone Pine. I
                      don't know if there is a location in Mammoth Lakes
                      itself where you can pick-up the permitt but ask them.
                      It seems like there should be. In the past they
                      would put it in the overnight box so that you could
                      pick it up before 8am on the day of departure.
                      However I believe that they changed that now and
                      require you to pick it up in person.

                      By the way, you can stay free one night at Reds
                      Campground: Good restaurant and a HOT, HOT bath. The
                      campground store is OK for snacks and such but poor
                      for backpacker necessities. However you can get
                      everything and anything you could possibly need in
                      Mammoth Lakes which is a popular rest stop for thru
                      hikers on the PCT.

                      By the way, by starting from Reds you'll be missing
                      some great scenery between Donahue Pass and Reds in
                      the Ansel Adams Wilderness but there will be plenty
                      ahead of you!! Have a good trip. I hope to see you
                      on the trail.

                      Thomas
                      --- Paul <eaglepdub@...> wrote:

                      > --- In johnmuirt

                      rail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin
                      > <roleigh@...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >Damn I just typed out all the information that you
                      > needed and then
                      > it all got deleted. I did this trail last year and
                      > have all your
                      > answers. Just give me a call 208-484-2718 Paul
                      > Walker in Idaho.
                      >
                      >
                      > > We're planning a 3 person partial - JMT hike for
                      > late July 2008
                      > starting at Red Meadows on the JMT and going all the
                      > way down to
                      > Whitney Portal. Where does one apply for the permit
                      > and where does
                      > one physically show up to get the permit, or is it
                      > available by
                      > mail? If it has to be in person some distance away
                      > (like Toulumne
                      > Meadows), can it be gotten the afternoon the day
                      > before?
                      > >
                      > > Where do people advise parking the car for such a
                      > hike (at Whitney
                      > Portal or near Red Meadows)?
                      > >
                      > > PS -- how difficult is it to purchase a ride from
                      > the other end of
                      > where one parks to where one needs to get (after or
                      > before the trail
                      > depending on the answer to the above question)? I
                      > believe there is
                      > a bus from Bishop to Mammoth Lake but how does one
                      > get from Lone
                      > Pine to Bishop?
                      > >
                      > > PPS - how does one get to the Trailhead from
                      > Mammoth Lake to Red
                      > Meadows?
                      > >
                      > > Thanks!
                      > >
                      > > Thanks!
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                      > removed]
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      Best regards,

                      Thomas

                      Thomas Taylor
                      tgtaylor7@...
                      http://profiles.yahoo.com/tgtaylor7
                    • Patronio@aol.com
                      The Permit has to be checked out at the Wilderness Permit in Tuolumne Meadows Ranger Station. ************************************** Check out AOL s list of
                      Message 10 of 28 , Dec 2, 2007
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                        The Permit has to be checked out at the Wilderness Permit in Tuolumne Meadows
                        Ranger Station.


                        **************************************
                        Check out AOL's list of
                        2007's hottest products.

                        (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Patronio@aol.com
                        There is a shuttle that takes you from Mammoth Lakes, right to Reds Meadows ranger station and the Mulehouse cafe if you like. It is very easy and fun, for a
                        Message 11 of 28 , Dec 2, 2007
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                          There is a shuttle that takes you from Mammoth Lakes, right to Reds Meadows
                          ranger station and the Mulehouse cafe if you like. It is very easy and fun, for
                          a side trip if you wish to go down to town.



                          **************************************
                          Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products.

                          (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • thomas taylor
                          One probably could get a permit at Tuolumne Meadows also, but the Inyo website states the following: Where can I pick up my wilderness permit? We recommend you
                          Message 12 of 28 , Dec 2, 2007
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                            One probably could get a permit at Tuolumne Meadows
                            also, but the Inyo website states the following:

                            Where can I pick up my wilderness permit? We recommend
                            you pick up your reserved permit at the location
                            closest to your entry trailhead. Inyo National Forest
                            wilderness permits are issued at the following
                            locations:

                            Eastern Sierra InterAgency Visitor Center
                            Junction of Highway 395 and State Route 136
                            2 miles south of Lone Pine, CA
                            (760)876-6200 or TDD(760)876-6201

                            White Mountain Ranger Station
                            798 N. Main Street
                            Bishop, CA 93514
                            (760)873-2500 or TDD (760) 873-2501

                            Mammoth Lakes Visitor Center
                            2500 Main Street
                            Mammoth Lakes, CA 93546
                            (760) 924-5500 or TDD (760) 924-5531

                            Mono Basin Scenic Area Visitor Center
                            P.O. Box 429 (North of Lee Vining on Hwy 395)
                            Lee Vining, CA 93541
                            (760) 647-3044 or TDD (760) 647-3045


                            updated Nov.2006

                            I thought you could pick it up in Mammoth Lakes but I
                            always went to either Momo Lake or Bishop.

                            Thomas

                            --- Patronio@... wrote:

                            > The Permit has to be checked out at the Wilderness
                            > Permit in Tuolumne Meadows
                            > Ranger Station.
                            >
                            >
                            > **************************************
                            > Check out AOL's list of
                            > 2007's hottest products.
                            >
                            >
                            (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                            > removed]
                            >
                            >


                            Best regards,

                            Thomas

                            Thomas Taylor
                            tgtaylor7@...
                            http://profiles.yahoo.com/tgtaylor7
                          • Frank Martin
                            ... Tuolumne Meadows ... If you are starting at Red s you CAN T p/u a Permit at TM. TM is only for hikes that originate in Yosemite. If you are coming from
                            Message 13 of 28 , Dec 3, 2007
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                              --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Patronio@... wrote:
                              >
                              > The Permit has to be checked out at the Wilderness Permit in
                              Tuolumne Meadows
                              > Ranger Station.
                              >

                              If you are starting at Red's you CAN'T p/u a Permit at TM. TM is only
                              for hikes that originate in Yosemite. If you are coming from the Bay
                              Area the easiest place to get the Permit is Mono Lake. If coming from
                              the South either Lone Pine or Bishop. Note the new permit Station is
                              now South of Lone Pine.

                              One thing about Inyo is that if you do not have a Reservation you can
                              obtain a Permit starting at Noon TWO days in advance instead of one.

                              Also in the National Forrest Areas if you call ahead they will leave
                              the Permits outside for you to pick up after hours either pinned to a
                              board or a dropbox.

                              frank
                            • thomas taylor
                              Frank, I think you are right about not being able to obtain a permit at Tuolumne for entering the trail on Reds and exiting Whitney. But earlier this year I
                              Message 14 of 28 , Dec 3, 2007
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                                Frank,

                                I think you are right about not being able to obtain a
                                permit at Tuolumne for entering the trail on Reds and
                                exiting Whitney. But earlier this year I reserved to
                                enter over Kearsarge exiting Whitney and they said I
                                had to pick it up in person - that they don't leave
                                them outside any longer.

                                Thomas

                                --- Frank Martin <sriprank@...> wrote:

                                > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Patronio@...
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > The Permit has to be checked out at the Wilderness
                                > Permit in
                                > Tuolumne Meadows
                                > > Ranger Station.
                                > >
                                >
                                > If you are starting at Red's you CAN'T p/u a Permit
                                > at TM. TM is only
                                > for hikes that originate in Yosemite. If you are
                                > coming from the Bay
                                > Area the easiest place to get the Permit is Mono
                                > Lake. If coming from
                                > the South either Lone Pine or Bishop. Note the new
                                > permit Station is
                                > now South of Lone Pine.
                                >
                                > One thing about Inyo is that if you do not have a
                                > Reservation you can
                                > obtain a Permit starting at Noon TWO days in advance
                                > instead of one.
                                >
                                > Also in the National Forrest Areas if you call ahead
                                > they will leave
                                > the Permits outside for you to pick up after hours
                                > either pinned to a
                                > board or a dropbox.
                                >
                                > frank
                                >
                                >
                              • Frank Martin
                                ... That must be a new wrinkle. Earlier in 2007 I picked them up afterhours at Bridgeport for Green Lake TH and in Lone Pine for George Creek. That was in
                                Message 15 of 28 , Dec 3, 2007
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                                  --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, thomas taylor <tgtaylor7@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Frank,
                                  >
                                  > I think you are right about not being able to obtain a
                                  > permit at Tuolumne for entering the trail on Reds and
                                  > exiting Whitney. But earlier this year I reserved to
                                  > enter over Kearsarge exiting Whitney and they said I
                                  > had to pick it up in person - that they don't leave
                                  > them outside any longer.
                                  >
                                  > Thomas

                                  That must be a new wrinkle. Earlier in 2007 I picked them up
                                  afterhours at Bridgeport for Green Lake TH and in Lone Pine for George
                                  Creek. That was in May/June.

                                  thanks,

                                  frank
                                • thomas taylor
                                  I think they said that this was a new rule for the national parks or whitney only. They will put the permit in the overnight box for trips that do not enter a
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Dec 3, 2007
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                                    I think they said that this was a new rule for the
                                    national parks or whitney only. They will put the
                                    permit in the overnight box for trips that do not
                                    enter a NP. I called in to reserve for another hike
                                    and they put it on the overnight box at Mono Lake
                                    Visitors Center.

                                    Thomas
                                    --- Frank Martin <sriprank@...> wrote:

                                    > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, thomas taylor
                                    > <tgtaylor7@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Frank,
                                    > >
                                    > > I think you are right about not being able to
                                    > obtain a
                                    > > permit at Tuolumne for entering the trail on Reds
                                    > and
                                    > > exiting Whitney. But earlier this year I reserved
                                    > to
                                    > > enter over Kearsarge exiting Whitney and they said
                                    > I
                                    > > had to pick it up in person - that they don't
                                    > leave
                                    > > them outside any longer.
                                    > >
                                    > > Thomas
                                    >
                                    > That must be a new wrinkle. Earlier in 2007 I
                                    > picked them up
                                    > afterhours at Bridgeport for Green Lake TH and in
                                    > Lone Pine for George
                                    > Creek. That was in May/June.
                                    >
                                    > thanks,
                                    >
                                    > frank
                                    >
                                    >


                                    Best regards,

                                    Thomas

                                    Thomas Taylor
                                    tgtaylor7@...
                                    http://profiles.yahoo.com/tgtaylor7
                                  • clairehiker
                                    You have to reserve and pick up your permit from whatever agency the trailhead starts in, and it is good for the whole trip, even if you cross other national
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jan 25, 2008
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                                      You have to reserve and pick up your permit from whatever agency the
                                      trailhead starts in, and it is good for the whole trip, even if you
                                      cross other national parks or forests. For Reds Meadow, it is Inyo
                                      National Forest
                                      http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/inyo/recreation/wild/howto.shtml

                                      Claire


                                      --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Martin" <sriprank@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, thomas taylor <tgtaylor7@>
                                      wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Frank,
                                      > >
                                      > > I think you are right about not being able to obtain a
                                      > > permit at Tuolumne for entering the trail on Reds and
                                      > > exiting Whitney. But earlier this year I reserved to
                                      > > enter over Kearsarge exiting Whitney and they said I
                                      > > had to pick it up in person - that they don't leave
                                      > > them outside any longer.
                                      > >
                                      > > Thomas
                                      >
                                      > That must be a new wrinkle. Earlier in 2007 I picked them up
                                      > afterhours at Bridgeport for Green Lake TH and in Lone Pine for
                                      George
                                      > Creek. That was in May/June.
                                      >
                                      > thanks,
                                      >
                                      > frank
                                      >
                                    • Kevin Aston
                                      When you call for a permit, just tell them that you are going in at Reds. We did it last year and had no problem. You can pick it up at the same place you
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jan 25, 2008
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                                        When you call for a permit, just tell them that you are going in at
                                        Reds. We did it last year and had no problem. You can pick it up at
                                        the same place you would pick up any of the backcountry permits.
                                        GoodLuck
                                        Kevin Aston

                                        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "clairehiker" <clairehiker@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > You have to reserve and pick up your permit from whatever agency
                                        the
                                        > trailhead starts in, and it is good for the whole trip, even if you
                                        > cross other national parks or forests. For Reds Meadow, it is Inyo
                                        > National Forest
                                        > http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/inyo/recreation/wild/howto.shtml
                                        >
                                        > Claire
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Martin" <sriprank@>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, thomas taylor <tgtaylor7@>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Frank,
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I think you are right about not being able to obtain a
                                        > > > permit at Tuolumne for entering the trail on Reds and
                                        > > > exiting Whitney. But earlier this year I reserved to
                                        > > > enter over Kearsarge exiting Whitney and they said I
                                        > > > had to pick it up in person - that they don't leave
                                        > > > them outside any longer.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Thomas
                                        > >
                                        > > That must be a new wrinkle. Earlier in 2007 I picked them up
                                        > > afterhours at Bridgeport for Green Lake TH and in Lone Pine for
                                        > George
                                        > > Creek. That was in May/June.
                                        > >
                                        > > thanks,
                                        > >
                                        > > frank
                                        > >
                                        >
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