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[John Muir Trail] Re: Ursack Hybrid - use without the liner?

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  • spritekk
    Thanks Fred, I have figured approx 1300 calories a day, with a weight about 7.5lbs before i repackage my Mtn House one person dinners. I know that is pretty
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 6 3:47 PM
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      Thanks Fred,
      I have figured approx 1300 calories a day, with a weight about 7.5lbs
      before i repackage my Mtn House one person dinners.

      I know that is pretty lean, but did about the same on a 4.5 day stroll
      on the HST last summer, and believe it or not, gained weight.

      Big fine, and sent home packing? Is that true?
      I really would like to avoid that weight, if possible...


      --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Fred Sharples" <fred@...> wrote:
      >
      > Removing the liner will technically make the Ursack illegal in the
      National
      > Parks and a few other places on the trip. So you could get a big
      fine and be
      > sent packing home if a ranger comes checking. But with your pace,
      you'll be
      > pretty much running so maybe you don't have to worry about that. ; )
      >
      >
      >
      > Even so, fitting 10 days of food into a 650 cubic inch Ursack, with or
      > without the liner will be the biggest problem, especially when you
      need to
      > eat enough calories for 20+ mile days. They're really small.
      >
      >
      >
      > For instance I rented a 900 cubic inch Bearikade Expedition and I
      could only
      > fit 11 days in there. All my food was freeze dried, smashed down to
      crumbs
      > and all packaging was removed. So you might want to try packing the
      thing
      > well before you leave so you have time to make a plan B.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > From: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com]
      > On Behalf Of spritekk
      > Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 2:40 PM
      > To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [John Muir Trail] Re: Ursack Hybrid - use without the liner?
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Question - can the ursack be used without the aluminum liner?
      >
      > According to their details the Ursack weighs about 8 ounces, and the
      > aluminum liner weighs ONLY 14 oz.
      >
      > I'm hiking the JMT in Aug from Tuolumne Meadows to Whitney and
      > planning 10 days. I want to go as light as possible, which means a
      > bunch of sacrifices. I'm planning no drops, and carrying everything.
      >
      > What kind of problems would I have without the liner?
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Roleigh Martin
      Technically the fine can be $5000 but I have only heard of a $500 ever being dealt out and I have heard of the requirement to immediately hike outside of the
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 6 3:52 PM
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        Technically the fine can be $5000 but I have only heard of a $500 ever being dealt out and I have heard of the requirement to immediately hike outside of the park boundaries too.

        The weight difference between a legal Ursack and a wild-ideas.net weekender is only a couple or few ounces I think, and the weekender can hold 9 days of food (I've gotten 9 days of food in it--depends on what one takes for food). You can remove your aluminum packaging just before the hike as the food will stay good for about 2-3 weeks outside of the aluminum packaging -- use freezer plastic bags instead. That will allow better packing, less weight, and burnability of garbage too.

        Of course the wild-ideas.net items weight a lot more.

        Some people I have heard bring a legal bear cannister along (smallest that is legal, say either a wild-ideas.net scout weekender or cannister or a legal ursack with aluminum insert ) plus a separate ursack without an insert for the trash and overflow items, taking a tiny risk. Most of the time rangers when they see the legal container leave you go at that. I always bring a separate Ursack without an insert along to protect items from rodents inside bear boxes along with a legal bear resistant cannister.

        Fred Sharples <fred@...> wrote:
        Removing the liner will technically make the Ursack illegal in the National
        Parks and a few other places on the trip. So you could get a big fine and be
        sent packing home if a ranger comes checking. But with your pace, you'll be
        pretty much running so maybe you don't have to worry about that. ; )

        Even so, fitting 10 days of food into a 650 cubic inch Ursack, with or
        without the liner will be the biggest problem, especially when you need to
        eat enough calories for 20+ mile days. They're really small.

        For instance I rented a 900 cubic inch Bearikade Expedition and I could only
        fit 11 days in there. All my food was freeze dried, smashed down to crumbs
        and all packaging was removed. So you might want to try packing the thing
        well before you leave so you have time to make a plan B.

        From: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com]
        On Behalf Of spritekk
        Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 2:40 PM
        To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [John Muir Trail] Re: Ursack Hybrid - use without the liner?

        Question - can the ursack be used without the aluminum liner?

        According to their details the Ursack weighs about 8 ounces, and the
        aluminum liner weighs ONLY 14 oz.

        I'm hiking the JMT in Aug from Tuolumne Meadows to Whitney and
        planning 10 days. I want to go as light as possible, which means a
        bunch of sacrifices. I'm planning no drops, and carrying everything.

        What kind of problems would I have without the liner?

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Fred Sharples
        Here s an FAQ item from http://www.sierrawildbear.gov What happens if I don t use a canister in mandatory canister areas? Failure to use an approved canister
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 6 4:35 PM
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          Here's an FAQ item from http://www.sierrawildbear.gov



          What happens if I don't use a canister in mandatory canister areas?
          Failure to use an approved canister where canisters are required is
          considered improper food storage and may result in a citation, property
          impoundment and/or you will be asked to leave the backcountry.



          It would be interesting to know what the fine and punishment currently are
          for not protecting food. I think it's different for each park and probably
          up to the individual ranger.



          In any case, the real issue is that we all should do our part to keep the
          bears disinterested in hiker food.

          The rangers I spoke to said the new requirements are working and that the
          bears are bothering people much less in the past year and a half. I think
          that's a good thing for everyone.

          That said, the current solutions are pretty much awful. My can was the
          biggest, clumsiest piece of equipment I had to drag out there. Hopefully
          we'll look back at these crazy bear cans in a few years and laugh.

          The SIBBG needs to loosen the testing requirements a little and the
          manufacturers need to come up with something more creative that works for
          today's ultra-light backpackers.







          From: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com]
          On Behalf Of Roleigh Martin
          Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 3:52 PM
          To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [John Muir Trail] Re: Ursack Hybrid - use without the liner?



          Technically the fine can be $5000 but I have only heard of a $500 ever being
          dealt out and I have heard of the requirement to immediately hike outside of
          the park boundaries too.

          The weight difference between a legal Ursack and a wild-ideas.net weekender
          is only a couple or few ounces I think, and the weekender can hold 9 days of
          food (I've gotten 9 days of food in it--depends on what one takes for food).
          You can remove your aluminum packaging just before the hike as the food will
          stay good for about 2-3 weeks outside of the aluminum packaging -- use
          freezer plastic bags instead. That will allow better packing, less weight,
          and burnability of garbage too.

          Of course the wild-ideas.net items weight a lot more.

          Some people I have heard bring a legal bear cannister along (smallest that
          is legal, say either a wild-ideas.net scout weekender or cannister or a
          legal ursack with aluminum insert ) plus a separate ursack without an insert
          for the trash and overflow items, taking a tiny risk. Most of the time
          rangers when they see the legal container leave you go at that. I always
          bring a separate Ursack without an insert along to protect items from
          rodents inside bear boxes along with a legal bear resistant cannister.

          Fred Sharples <fred@... <mailto:fred%40orangedesign.com> >
          wrote:
          Removing the liner will technically make the Ursack illegal in the National
          Parks and a few other places on the trip. So you could get a big fine and be
          sent packing home if a ranger comes checking. But with your pace, you'll be
          pretty much running so maybe you don't have to worry about that. ; )

          Even so, fitting 10 days of food into a 650 cubic inch Ursack, with or
          without the liner will be the biggest problem, especially when you need to
          eat enough calories for 20+ mile days. They're really small.

          For instance I rented a 900 cubic inch Bearikade Expedition and I could only
          fit 11 days in there. All my food was freeze dried, smashed down to crumbs
          and all packaging was removed. So you might want to try packing the thing
          well before you leave so you have time to make a plan B.

          From: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:johnmuirtrail%40yahoogroups.com>
          [mailto:johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
          <mailto:johnmuirtrail%40yahoogroups.com> ]
          On Behalf Of spritekk
          Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 2:40 PM
          To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:johnmuirtrail%40yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: [John Muir Trail] Re: Ursack Hybrid - use without the liner?

          Question - can the ursack be used without the aluminum liner?

          According to their details the Ursack weighs about 8 ounces, and the
          aluminum liner weighs ONLY 14 oz.

          I'm hiking the JMT in Aug from Tuolumne Meadows to Whitney and
          planning 10 days. I want to go as light as possible, which means a
          bunch of sacrifices. I'm planning no drops, and carrying everything.

          What kind of problems would I have without the liner?

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Frank Martin
          ... works for ... I don t think we will ever see an end to the use of Bear Canisters in Yosemite. It is just too popular , not just the JMT but the routes
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 9 8:31 AM
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            --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Fred Sharples" <fred@...> wrote:
            >
            > That said, the current solutions are pretty much awful. My can was the
            > biggest, clumsiest piece of equipment I had to drag out there. Hopefully
            > we'll look back at these crazy bear cans in a few years and laugh.
            >
            > The SIBBG needs to loosen the testing requirements a little and the
            > manufacturers need to come up with something more creative that
            works for
            > today's ultra-light backpackers.

            I don't think we will ever see an end to the use of Bear Canisters in
            Yosemite. It is just 'too popular', not just the JMT but the routes
            leading into it. There are plenty of other places to hike N of
            Yosemite where canisters are not required. Once you leave the
            Yosemite boundry on the PCT you don't need one and can hike to Canada
            without one. There are lots of areas of SEKI that presently don't
            require canisters. There it is a matter of the trailhead you choose.

            The 'bear problem' in Yosemite is man made. I am a hardcore UL
            backpacker. For my extreme UL my baseweight is under 10lbs before
            food and water. I dehydrate my food and can survive on under 1 lb/day
            and thruhike 30 miles/day. I've done the JMT with 18 lbs total weight
            and no resupply with proper food canister. It takes work.

            I get frustrated with some of my fellow UL'ers as I see them breaking
            the rules with food storage. They seem to think that since they
            'golite' they have a sense of entitlement. This is not a condemnation
            of anyone here but just something I see when I am out there. People
            bragging about how they break the rules.

            I don't know what else SIBBG can do. In the past two years there have
            been failures with certain Bearvault models and the Ursack V27 and
            their certification was revoked. Each time this occurs it is a step
            backward at least for the bears.

            There is a new product in the works.

            http://www.wilderness-solutions.com/palisade_est.htm

            Somehow going out in the wilderness and giving an electric shock to
            animals doesn't really appeal to me. I'm sure that it would have
            little effect on a bear but wonder about smaller animals. Of course
            if I were a bear and got a shock I might be pretty PO'ed and just take
            it out on whoever happened to be nearby.

            I guess my general feeling about all of this is that if you are going
            out in an area where bear activity is active just suck it up and carry
            a proper canister and stop complaining. I own two Bearikades the
            Weekender and the Expedition. They are expensive and somewhat
            difficult to pack but they are realtively lite and most of all they
            work. You do have to be sure that you secure the lid properly.

            The environment in the Sierra is very fragile this year. With little
            snowpack and hot weather there is high fire danger. I am just waiting
            for a UL'er with an alcohol stove to start a fire.

            Again no offense to anyone here.

            frank
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