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RE: [John Muir Trail] Re: Ursack Hybrid - use without the liner?

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  • Fred Sharples
    Removing the liner will technically make the Ursack illegal in the National Parks and a few other places on the trip. So you could get a big fine and be sent
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 6, 2007
      Removing the liner will technically make the Ursack illegal in the National
      Parks and a few other places on the trip. So you could get a big fine and be
      sent packing home if a ranger comes checking. But with your pace, you'll be
      pretty much running so maybe you don't have to worry about that. ; )



      Even so, fitting 10 days of food into a 650 cubic inch Ursack, with or
      without the liner will be the biggest problem, especially when you need to
      eat enough calories for 20+ mile days. They're really small.



      For instance I rented a 900 cubic inch Bearikade Expedition and I could only
      fit 11 days in there. All my food was freeze dried, smashed down to crumbs
      and all packaging was removed. So you might want to try packing the thing
      well before you leave so you have time to make a plan B.





      From: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com]
      On Behalf Of spritekk
      Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 2:40 PM
      To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [John Muir Trail] Re: Ursack Hybrid - use without the liner?




      Question - can the ursack be used without the aluminum liner?

      According to their details the Ursack weighs about 8 ounces, and the
      aluminum liner weighs ONLY 14 oz.

      I'm hiking the JMT in Aug from Tuolumne Meadows to Whitney and
      planning 10 days. I want to go as light as possible, which means a
      bunch of sacrifices. I'm planning no drops, and carrying everything.

      What kind of problems would I have without the liner?





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • spritekk
      Thanks Fred, I have figured approx 1300 calories a day, with a weight about 7.5lbs before i repackage my Mtn House one person dinners. I know that is pretty
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 6, 2007
        Thanks Fred,
        I have figured approx 1300 calories a day, with a weight about 7.5lbs
        before i repackage my Mtn House one person dinners.

        I know that is pretty lean, but did about the same on a 4.5 day stroll
        on the HST last summer, and believe it or not, gained weight.

        Big fine, and sent home packing? Is that true?
        I really would like to avoid that weight, if possible...


        --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Fred Sharples" <fred@...> wrote:
        >
        > Removing the liner will technically make the Ursack illegal in the
        National
        > Parks and a few other places on the trip. So you could get a big
        fine and be
        > sent packing home if a ranger comes checking. But with your pace,
        you'll be
        > pretty much running so maybe you don't have to worry about that. ; )
        >
        >
        >
        > Even so, fitting 10 days of food into a 650 cubic inch Ursack, with or
        > without the liner will be the biggest problem, especially when you
        need to
        > eat enough calories for 20+ mile days. They're really small.
        >
        >
        >
        > For instance I rented a 900 cubic inch Bearikade Expedition and I
        could only
        > fit 11 days in there. All my food was freeze dried, smashed down to
        crumbs
        > and all packaging was removed. So you might want to try packing the
        thing
        > well before you leave so you have time to make a plan B.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > From: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com]
        > On Behalf Of spritekk
        > Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 2:40 PM
        > To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [John Muir Trail] Re: Ursack Hybrid - use without the liner?
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Question - can the ursack be used without the aluminum liner?
        >
        > According to their details the Ursack weighs about 8 ounces, and the
        > aluminum liner weighs ONLY 14 oz.
        >
        > I'm hiking the JMT in Aug from Tuolumne Meadows to Whitney and
        > planning 10 days. I want to go as light as possible, which means a
        > bunch of sacrifices. I'm planning no drops, and carrying everything.
        >
        > What kind of problems would I have without the liner?
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Roleigh Martin
        Technically the fine can be $5000 but I have only heard of a $500 ever being dealt out and I have heard of the requirement to immediately hike outside of the
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 6, 2007
          Technically the fine can be $5000 but I have only heard of a $500 ever being dealt out and I have heard of the requirement to immediately hike outside of the park boundaries too.

          The weight difference between a legal Ursack and a wild-ideas.net weekender is only a couple or few ounces I think, and the weekender can hold 9 days of food (I've gotten 9 days of food in it--depends on what one takes for food). You can remove your aluminum packaging just before the hike as the food will stay good for about 2-3 weeks outside of the aluminum packaging -- use freezer plastic bags instead. That will allow better packing, less weight, and burnability of garbage too.

          Of course the wild-ideas.net items weight a lot more.

          Some people I have heard bring a legal bear cannister along (smallest that is legal, say either a wild-ideas.net scout weekender or cannister or a legal ursack with aluminum insert ) plus a separate ursack without an insert for the trash and overflow items, taking a tiny risk. Most of the time rangers when they see the legal container leave you go at that. I always bring a separate Ursack without an insert along to protect items from rodents inside bear boxes along with a legal bear resistant cannister.

          Fred Sharples <fred@...> wrote:
          Removing the liner will technically make the Ursack illegal in the National
          Parks and a few other places on the trip. So you could get a big fine and be
          sent packing home if a ranger comes checking. But with your pace, you'll be
          pretty much running so maybe you don't have to worry about that. ; )

          Even so, fitting 10 days of food into a 650 cubic inch Ursack, with or
          without the liner will be the biggest problem, especially when you need to
          eat enough calories for 20+ mile days. They're really small.

          For instance I rented a 900 cubic inch Bearikade Expedition and I could only
          fit 11 days in there. All my food was freeze dried, smashed down to crumbs
          and all packaging was removed. So you might want to try packing the thing
          well before you leave so you have time to make a plan B.

          From: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com]
          On Behalf Of spritekk
          Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 2:40 PM
          To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [John Muir Trail] Re: Ursack Hybrid - use without the liner?

          Question - can the ursack be used without the aluminum liner?

          According to their details the Ursack weighs about 8 ounces, and the
          aluminum liner weighs ONLY 14 oz.

          I'm hiking the JMT in Aug from Tuolumne Meadows to Whitney and
          planning 10 days. I want to go as light as possible, which means a
          bunch of sacrifices. I'm planning no drops, and carrying everything.

          What kind of problems would I have without the liner?

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Fred Sharples
          Here s an FAQ item from http://www.sierrawildbear.gov What happens if I don t use a canister in mandatory canister areas? Failure to use an approved canister
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 6, 2007
            Here's an FAQ item from http://www.sierrawildbear.gov



            What happens if I don't use a canister in mandatory canister areas?
            Failure to use an approved canister where canisters are required is
            considered improper food storage and may result in a citation, property
            impoundment and/or you will be asked to leave the backcountry.



            It would be interesting to know what the fine and punishment currently are
            for not protecting food. I think it's different for each park and probably
            up to the individual ranger.



            In any case, the real issue is that we all should do our part to keep the
            bears disinterested in hiker food.

            The rangers I spoke to said the new requirements are working and that the
            bears are bothering people much less in the past year and a half. I think
            that's a good thing for everyone.

            That said, the current solutions are pretty much awful. My can was the
            biggest, clumsiest piece of equipment I had to drag out there. Hopefully
            we'll look back at these crazy bear cans in a few years and laugh.

            The SIBBG needs to loosen the testing requirements a little and the
            manufacturers need to come up with something more creative that works for
            today's ultra-light backpackers.







            From: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com]
            On Behalf Of Roleigh Martin
            Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 3:52 PM
            To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [John Muir Trail] Re: Ursack Hybrid - use without the liner?



            Technically the fine can be $5000 but I have only heard of a $500 ever being
            dealt out and I have heard of the requirement to immediately hike outside of
            the park boundaries too.

            The weight difference between a legal Ursack and a wild-ideas.net weekender
            is only a couple or few ounces I think, and the weekender can hold 9 days of
            food (I've gotten 9 days of food in it--depends on what one takes for food).
            You can remove your aluminum packaging just before the hike as the food will
            stay good for about 2-3 weeks outside of the aluminum packaging -- use
            freezer plastic bags instead. That will allow better packing, less weight,
            and burnability of garbage too.

            Of course the wild-ideas.net items weight a lot more.

            Some people I have heard bring a legal bear cannister along (smallest that
            is legal, say either a wild-ideas.net scout weekender or cannister or a
            legal ursack with aluminum insert ) plus a separate ursack without an insert
            for the trash and overflow items, taking a tiny risk. Most of the time
            rangers when they see the legal container leave you go at that. I always
            bring a separate Ursack without an insert along to protect items from
            rodents inside bear boxes along with a legal bear resistant cannister.

            Fred Sharples <fred@... <mailto:fred%40orangedesign.com> >
            wrote:
            Removing the liner will technically make the Ursack illegal in the National
            Parks and a few other places on the trip. So you could get a big fine and be
            sent packing home if a ranger comes checking. But with your pace, you'll be
            pretty much running so maybe you don't have to worry about that. ; )

            Even so, fitting 10 days of food into a 650 cubic inch Ursack, with or
            without the liner will be the biggest problem, especially when you need to
            eat enough calories for 20+ mile days. They're really small.

            For instance I rented a 900 cubic inch Bearikade Expedition and I could only
            fit 11 days in there. All my food was freeze dried, smashed down to crumbs
            and all packaging was removed. So you might want to try packing the thing
            well before you leave so you have time to make a plan B.

            From: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:johnmuirtrail%40yahoogroups.com>
            [mailto:johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
            <mailto:johnmuirtrail%40yahoogroups.com> ]
            On Behalf Of spritekk
            Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 2:40 PM
            To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:johnmuirtrail%40yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: [John Muir Trail] Re: Ursack Hybrid - use without the liner?

            Question - can the ursack be used without the aluminum liner?

            According to their details the Ursack weighs about 8 ounces, and the
            aluminum liner weighs ONLY 14 oz.

            I'm hiking the JMT in Aug from Tuolumne Meadows to Whitney and
            planning 10 days. I want to go as light as possible, which means a
            bunch of sacrifices. I'm planning no drops, and carrying everything.

            What kind of problems would I have without the liner?

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Frank Martin
            ... works for ... I don t think we will ever see an end to the use of Bear Canisters in Yosemite. It is just too popular , not just the JMT but the routes
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 9, 2007
              --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, "Fred Sharples" <fred@...> wrote:
              >
              > That said, the current solutions are pretty much awful. My can was the
              > biggest, clumsiest piece of equipment I had to drag out there. Hopefully
              > we'll look back at these crazy bear cans in a few years and laugh.
              >
              > The SIBBG needs to loosen the testing requirements a little and the
              > manufacturers need to come up with something more creative that
              works for
              > today's ultra-light backpackers.

              I don't think we will ever see an end to the use of Bear Canisters in
              Yosemite. It is just 'too popular', not just the JMT but the routes
              leading into it. There are plenty of other places to hike N of
              Yosemite where canisters are not required. Once you leave the
              Yosemite boundry on the PCT you don't need one and can hike to Canada
              without one. There are lots of areas of SEKI that presently don't
              require canisters. There it is a matter of the trailhead you choose.

              The 'bear problem' in Yosemite is man made. I am a hardcore UL
              backpacker. For my extreme UL my baseweight is under 10lbs before
              food and water. I dehydrate my food and can survive on under 1 lb/day
              and thruhike 30 miles/day. I've done the JMT with 18 lbs total weight
              and no resupply with proper food canister. It takes work.

              I get frustrated with some of my fellow UL'ers as I see them breaking
              the rules with food storage. They seem to think that since they
              'golite' they have a sense of entitlement. This is not a condemnation
              of anyone here but just something I see when I am out there. People
              bragging about how they break the rules.

              I don't know what else SIBBG can do. In the past two years there have
              been failures with certain Bearvault models and the Ursack V27 and
              their certification was revoked. Each time this occurs it is a step
              backward at least for the bears.

              There is a new product in the works.

              http://www.wilderness-solutions.com/palisade_est.htm

              Somehow going out in the wilderness and giving an electric shock to
              animals doesn't really appeal to me. I'm sure that it would have
              little effect on a bear but wonder about smaller animals. Of course
              if I were a bear and got a shock I might be pretty PO'ed and just take
              it out on whoever happened to be nearby.

              I guess my general feeling about all of this is that if you are going
              out in an area where bear activity is active just suck it up and carry
              a proper canister and stop complaining. I own two Bearikades the
              Weekender and the Expedition. They are expensive and somewhat
              difficult to pack but they are realtively lite and most of all they
              work. You do have to be sure that you secure the lid properly.

              The environment in the Sierra is very fragile this year. With little
              snowpack and hot weather there is high fire danger. I am just waiting
              for a UL'er with an alcohol stove to start a fire.

              Again no offense to anyone here.

              frank
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