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Re: Free JMT Trail Maps and Data Book

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  • seatreesky
    Thanks for posting that Peter, you beat me to it! As Peter said, you can view the data book and the
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 1, 2010
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      Thanks for posting that Peter, you beat me to it!

      As Peter said, you can view the data book and the entire 41 image map set  online or registered postholer hikers can download both together in the PDF file .

      You can also view the google JMT map  which has the same way points and trail trace as the above maps.

      Features:
      + 41 full color maps created from 7.5 minute USGS quads
      + Beautiful 3D hill shading
      + Highly detailed elevation chart on each map
      + Large 8.5" x 11" maps for easy viewing
      + Accumulated trail mileage/elevation every half mile
      + Resupply locations within 90 miles of map center
      + WGS84 decimal degree tick marks for easy GPS use
      + Data book information printed at each locale on the maps
      + Separate data book appendix
      + Over 135 way points and resupply locations

      The hiking community consists of folks with a wide range of talents and skills. When one of us can contribute our skills to the benefit of the hiking community without muddling things with financial renumeration, it's always a good thing. YMMV.

      -postholer


      --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Peter Burke <pburke@...> wrote:
      >
      > Postholer.com just posted in a different forum that the Muir Trail
      > stuff they have is free:
      >
      > Data Book:
      > http://postholer.com/databook/index.php?trail_id=4
      >
      > Map set
      > http://postholer.com/mapbooks/preview.php?trail_id=4
      >
      > and once you log in there, you get to download everything as PDF from here
      > http://postholer.com/transfer.php?type=4
      >
      > if you register at that site, you can download the PDF versions
      >
    • Todd Sharp
      I really like how the maps are set up in a 3-5mi section. Perfect for planning Morning/afternoon section for those on a approx 10mi a day schedule. Like ME....
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 2, 2010
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        I really like how the maps are set up in a 3-5mi section. Perfect for planning Morning/afternoon section for those on a approx 10mi a day schedule. Like ME.... Now, if I can only get out there.


      • Kim Fishburn
        For those of you interested in doing Half Dome you might want to read this. It doesn t appear that the permit system they started this year has worked too
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 8, 2010
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          For those of you interested in doing Half Dome you might want to read this. It doesn't appear that the permit system they started this year has worked too  well.

          http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2010/12/study-says-half-dome-permit-system-yosemite-national-park-apparently-does-not-enhance-overall-hiker-7314
        • Barbara Karagosian
          Interesting but predictable. I wonder if they ll expand permits now. Cheers, Barbara
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 8, 2010
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            Interesting but predictable. I wonder if they'll expand permits now. 

            Cheers, Barbara

            On Dec 8, 2010, at 5:40 AM, Kim Fishburn <outhiking_55@...> wrote:

             

            For those of you interested in doing Half Dome you might want to read this. It doesn't appear that the permit system they started this year has worked too  well.

            http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2010/12/study-says-half-dome-permit-system-yosemite-national-park-apparently-does-not-enhance-overall-hiker-7314

          • Peter Burke
            ... I was gonna type up a rant about the crowds on that section of JMT, but then I have been there a few times myself, adding to the crowds. Get rid of the
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 8, 2010
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              On 12/8/2010 9:04 AM, Barbara Karagosian wrote:
              Interesting but predictable. I wonder if they'll expand permits now. 

              Cheers, Barbara

              On Dec 8, 2010, at 5:40 AM, Kim Fishburn <outhiking_55@...> wrote:

               
              For those of you interested in doing Half Dome you might want to read this. It doesn't appear that the permit system they started this year has worked too  well.

              http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2010/12/study-says-half-dome-permit-system-yosemite-national-park-apparently-does-not-enhance-overall-hiker-7314


              I was gonna type up a rant about the crowds on that section of JMT, but then I have been there a few times myself, adding to the crowds. Get rid of the cables - Half Dome problem solved. Clouds Rest is the much more rewarding peak anyway, but don't say that too often, because suddenly you'll have a tourist stream heading up there, too...








            • seatreesky
              The postholer JMT maps have been updated with the new data generously provided by Mr. Fishmonger and Bill! Further, I ve created a northbound *and* southbound
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 8, 2010
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                The postholer JMT maps have been updated with the new data generously provided by Mr. Fishmonger and Bill!

                Further, I've created a northbound *and* southbound set with matching data book appendices. You can view the northbound set online and download either from that page.

                Thanks again folks for your data, I know the whole community appreciates it!

                -postholer

                ----------------

                Features:
                + 41 full color maps created from 7.5 minute USGS quads
                + Beautiful 3D hill shading
                + Highly detailed elevation chart on each map
                + Large 8.5" x 11" maps for easy viewing
                + Accumulated trail mileage/elevation every half mile
                + Resupply locations within 90 miles of map center
                + WGS84 decimal degree tick marks for easy GPS use
                + Data book information printed at each locale on the maps
                + Separate data book appendix
                + Over 135 way points and resupply locations


              • Ed Rodriguez
                Thanks so much for this.I REALLY appreciates your hard work in this ________________________________ From: seatreesky To:
                Message 7 of 30 , Dec 8, 2010
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                  Thanks so much for this.I REALLY appreciates your hard work in this


                  From: seatreesky <pct@...>
                  To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 5:31:54 PM
                  Subject: [John Muir Trail] Re: Free JMT Trail Maps and Data Book

                   

                  The postholer JMT maps have been updated with the new data generously provided by Mr. Fishmonger and Bill!

                  Further, I've created a northbound *and* southbound set with matching data book appendices. You can view the northbound set online and download either from that page.

                  Thanks again folks for your data, I know the whole community appreciates it!

                  -postholer

                  ----------------

                  Features:
                  + 41 full color maps created from 7.5 minute USGS quads
                  + Beautiful 3D hill shading
                  + Highly detailed elevation chart on each map
                  + Large 8.5" x 11" maps for easy viewing
                  + Accumulated trail mileage/elevation every half mile
                  + Resupply locations within 90 miles of map center
                  + WGS84 decimal degree tick marks for easy GPS use
                  + Data book information printed at each locale on the maps
                  + Separate data book appendix
                  + Over 135 way points and resupply locations



                • judy
                  I started the JMT on Friday 30 July last summer and the permit system definitely made that part of the hike much more pleasant with far fewer people on the
                  Message 8 of 30 , Dec 9, 2010
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                    I started the JMT on Friday 30 July last summer and the permit system definitely made that part of the hike much more pleasant with far fewer people on the trail. Those there, in general, seemed much better prepared. Perhaps the permitting process provides an opportunity for some pre-trip education (a good thing) in addition to reducing the numbers on the cables. --Judy
                  • Peter Burke
                    ... mostly the pleasant part was due to be out there on the least busy day of the week, Friday (average 273 visitors per day, while Monday averaged 732)
                    Message 9 of 30 , Dec 9, 2010
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                      On 12/9/2010 7:23 AM, judy wrote:
                      > I started the JMT on Friday 30 July last summer and the permit system definitely made that part of the hike much more pleasant with far fewer people on the trail. Those there, in general, seemed much better prepared. Perhaps the permitting process provides an opportunity for some pre-trip education (a good thing) in addition to reducing the numbers on the cables. --Judy
                      >

                      mostly the pleasant part was due to be out there on the least busy day
                      of the week, Friday (average 273 visitors per day, while Monday averaged
                      732)

                      http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/files/YOSE-Half%20Dome%20Trail%20Use.pdf

                      on page 30 of the report you will also see that it was a 250 visitor day
                      on July 30, but just the Monday after that date, you would have shared
                      the trail with almost 900 people up to Half Dome Trail Junction. Permits
                      every day will come for sure to shave those peaks down to the same level
                      now seen on weekends and holidays, but it really doesn't address the
                      deeper issue - why are these cables up there in the first place?

                      I find the whole thing with the cables is a far cry from the whole
                      untouched wilderness concept they seem to put so much emphasis on with
                      comparably minor impact issues such as fire circles and (the elimination
                      of) bear lockers in the backcountry. If the cables had not been put up
                      in a period with less concern for impact, they'd never be placed there
                      today.

                      However, the cable route to Half Dome is there today, and it is an
                      attraction to many and it draws paying patrons into the valley, I guess,
                      hundreds each day who may not visit without this goal for their trip.
                      The money generated by these extra visitors is probably the overriding
                      economic factor for park management - 500 $20 car entrance tickets alone
                      each day is $10,000 in the bank. Do that for 3 months and you have a
                      million bucks you may not collect without the cables. Add money spent at
                      stores in the valley, and suddenly a set of cables that's not visible
                      from anywhere but up close by those who venture up there to take
                      advantage of them makes sense. The side effect of heavy trail erosion up
                      to the peak is something they have to deal with, though. The steep
                      section from Little Yosemite Valley to the HD trail intersection is
                      probably the most eroded and widest section of the entire JMT, although
                      compared to some French Alsp trails I have been on, this is in perfect
                      shape. This is all relative, I guess. In Europe, many trails are built
                      by erosion, nothing else.
                    • John Ladd
                      For a lot of California kids, the Half dome cable route gives them their first bragging rights in the outdoors. While you wouldn t want to take a really
                      Message 10 of 30 , Dec 9, 2010
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                        For a lot of California kids, the Half dome cable route gives them their first "bragging rights" in the outdoors.  While you wouldn't want to take a really little kid up there, it's probably doable safely with many kids (ones that will be careful) at age 10 or so and they are really proud of themselves once they "summit".

                        John Curran Ladd
                        1616 Castro Street
                        San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                        415-648-9279

                      • Barbara Karagosian
                        But then subtract the costs of SARs and recovery and it may not make so much money for the park after all. Cheers, Barbara
                        Message 11 of 30 , Dec 9, 2010
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                          But then subtract the costs of SARs and recovery and it may not make so much money for the park after all. 

                          Cheers, Barbara

                          On Dec 9, 2010, at 9:12 AM, Peter Burke <pburke@...> wrote:

                           

                          On 12/9/2010 7:23 AM, judy wrote:
                          > I started the JMT on Friday 30 July last summer and the permit system definitely made that part of the hike much more pleasant with far fewer people on the trail. Those there, in general, seemed much better prepared. Perhaps the permitting process provides an opportunity for some pre-trip education (a good thing) in addition to reducing the numbers on the cables. --Judy
                          >

                          mostly the pleasant part was due to be out there on the least busy day
                          of the week, Friday (average 273 visitors per day, while Monday averaged
                          732)

                          http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/files/YOSE-Half%20Dome%20Trail%20Use.pdf

                          on page 30 of the report you will also see that it was a 250 visitor day
                          on July 30, but just the Monday after that date, you would have shared
                          the trail with almost 900 people up to Half Dome Trail Junction. Permits
                          every day will come for sure to shave those peaks down to the same level
                          now seen on weekends and holidays, but it really doesn't address the
                          deeper issue - why are these cables up there in the first place?

                          I find the whole thing with the cables is a far cry from the whole
                          untouched wilderness concept they seem to put so much emphasis on with
                          comparably minor impact issues such as fire circles and (the elimination
                          of) bear lockers in the backcountry. If the cables had not been put up
                          in a period with less concern for impact, they'd never be placed there
                          today.

                          However, the cable route to Half Dome is there today, and it is an
                          attraction to many and it draws paying patrons into the valley, I guess,
                          hundreds each day who may not visit without this goal for their trip.
                          The money generated by these extra visitors is probably the overriding
                          economic factor for park management - 500 $20 car entrance tickets alone
                          each day is $10,000 in the bank. Do that for 3 months and you have a
                          million bucks you may not collect without the cables. Add money spent at
                          stores in the valley, and suddenly a set of cables that's not visible
                          from anywhere but up close by those who venture up there to take
                          advantage of them makes sense. The side effect of heavy trail erosion up
                          to the peak is something they have to deal with, though. The steep
                          section from Little Yosemite Valley to the HD trail intersection is
                          probably the most eroded and widest section of the entire JMT, although
                          compared to some French Alsp trails I have been on, this is in perfect
                          shape. This is all relative, I guess. In Europe, many trails are built
                          by erosion, nothing else.

                        • Peter Burke
                          ... my kids have been outdoors a lot, hang out at the local climbing gym a lot, and have done three JMTs. Still,I would NEVER take them up that route unless
                          Message 12 of 30 , Dec 9, 2010
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                            On 12/9/2010 12:27 PM, John Ladd wrote: For a lot of California kids, the Half dome cable route gives them their first "bragging rights" in the outdoors.  While you wouldn't want to take a really little kid up there, it's probably doable safely with many kids (ones that will be careful) at age 10 or so and they are really proud of themselves once they "summit".


                            my kids have been outdoors a lot, hang out at the local climbing gym a lot, and have done three JMTs. Still,I would NEVER take them up that route unless they wear full safety harnesses and clip into the cable.  Anything else, well, Darwin works in myterious ways.





                          • Peter Burke
                            ... but do they pay anything extra for that? They already have the ranger staff, add a few volunteers, and the helicopter is there anyway unless without Half
                            Message 13 of 30 , Dec 9, 2010
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                              On 12/9/2010 12:33 PM, Barbara Karagosian wrote:
                              But then subtract the costs of SARs and recovery and it may not make so much money for the park after all.

                              but do they pay anything extra for that? They already have the ranger staff, add a few volunteers, and the helicopter is there anyway unless without Half Dome it's not needed any longer? You take the revenue away, what are they using to pay for all those things? 

                              Interesting that all the statistics in the report don't include one word about actual accidents or the number of SAR calls to that location. Clearly they want to make it safer, so why no numbers on actual incidents? The whole report essentially is about safety on the cables, but only comments on people at one time on the cables without every taking a look at actual events that required SAR and how those may correlate to those high use days. Guess not much stuff actually happens up there, or that data would be in the report.



                              Cheers, Barbara

                              On Dec 9, 2010, at 9:12 AM, Peter Burke <pburke@...> wrote:

                               

                              On 12/9/2010 7:23 AM, judy wrote:
                              > I started the JMT on Friday 30 July last summer and the permit system definitely made that part of the hike much more pleasant with far fewer people on the trail. Those there, in general, seemed much better prepared. Perhaps the permitting process provides an opportunity for some pre-trip education (a good thing) in addition to reducing the numbers on the cables. --Judy
                              >

                              mostly the pleasant part was due to be out there on the least busy day
                              of the week, Friday (average 273 visitors per day, while Monday averaged
                              732)

                              http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/files/YOSE-Half%20Dome%20Trail%20Use.pdf

                              on page 30 of the report you will also see that it was a 250 visitor day
                              on July 30, but just the Monday after that date, you would have shared
                              the trail with almost 900 people up to Half Dome Trail Junction. Permits
                              every day will come for sure to shave those peaks down to the same level
                              now seen on weekends and holidays, but it really doesn't address the
                              deeper issue - why are these cables up there in the first place?

                              I find the whole thing with the cables is a far cry from the whole
                              untouched wilderness concept they seem to put so much emphasis on with
                              comparably minor impact issues such as fire circles and (the elimination
                              of) bear lockers in the backcountry. If the cables had not been put up
                              in a period with less concern for impact, they'd never be placed there
                              today.

                              However, the cable route to Half Dome is there today, and it is an
                              attraction to many and it draws paying patrons into the valley, I guess,
                              hundreds each day who may not visit without this goal for their trip.
                              The money generated by these extra visitors is probably the overriding
                              economic factor for park management - 500 $20 car entrance tickets alone
                              each day is $10,000 in the bank. Do that for 3 months and you have a
                              million bucks you may not collect without the cables. Add money spent at
                              stores in the valley, and suddenly a set of cables that's not visible
                              from anywhere but up close by those who venture up there to take
                              advantage of them makes sense. The side effect of heavy trail erosion up
                              to the peak is something they have to deal with, though. The steep
                              section from Little Yosemite Valley to the HD trail intersection is
                              probably the most eroded and widest section of the entire JMT, although
                              compared to some French Alsp trails I have been on, this is in perfect
                              shape. This is all relative, I guess. In Europe, many trails are built
                              by erosion, nothing else.


                            • Kim Fishburn
                              I think the last two deaths were a Japanese business man wearing leather souled dress shoes, and someone on the cables when it was wet and slippery. I don t
                              Message 14 of 30 , Dec 9, 2010
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                                I think the last two deaths were a Japanese business man wearing leather souled dress shoes, and someone on the cables when it was wet and slippery. I don't think the number of people had anything to do with it.



                                From: Peter Burke <pburke@...>
                                To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 1:07:19 PM
                                Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Re: Half Dome

                                 

                                On 12/9/2010 12:33 PM, Barbara Karagosian wrote:

                                But then subtract the costs of SARs and recovery and it may not make so much money for the park after all.

                                but do they pay anything extra for that? They already have the ranger staff, add a few volunteers, and the helicopter is there anyway unless without Half Dome it's not needed any longer? You take the revenue away, what are they using to pay for all those things? 

                                Interesting that all the statistics in the report don't include one word about actual accidents or the number of SAR calls to that location. Clearly they want to make it safer, so why no numbers on actual incidents? The whole report essentially is about safety on the cables, but only comments on people at one time on the cables without every taking a look at actual events that required SAR and how those may correlate to those high use days. Guess not much stuff actually happens up there, or that data would be in the report.



                                Cheers, Barbara

                                On Dec 9, 2010, at 9:12 AM, Peter Burke <pburke@...> wrote:

                                 

                                On 12/9/2010 7:23 AM, judy wrote:
                                > I started the JMT on Friday 30 July last summer and the permit system definitely made that part of the hike much more pleasant with far fewer people on the trail. Those there, in general, seemed much better prepared. Perhaps the permitting process provides an opportunity for some pre-trip education (a good thing) in addition to reducing the numbers on the cables. --Judy
                                >

                                mostly the pleasant part was due to be out there on the least busy day
                                of the week, Friday (average 273 visitors per day, while Monday averaged
                                732)

                                http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/files/YOSE-Half%20Dome%20Trail%20Use.pdf

                                on page 30 of the report you will also see that it was a 250 visitor day
                                on July 30, but just the Monday after that date, you would have shared
                                the trail with almost 900 people up to Half Dome Trail Junction. Permits
                                every day will come for sure to shave those peaks down to the same level
                                now seen on weekends and holidays, but it really doesn't address the
                                deeper issue - why are these cables up there in the first place?

                                I find the whole thing with the cables is a far cry from the whole
                                untouched wilderness concept they seem to put so much emphasis on with
                                comparably minor impact issues such as fire circles and (the elimination
                                of) bear lockers in the backcountry. If the cables had not been put up
                                in a period with less concern for impact, they'd never be placed there
                                today.

                                However, the cable route to Half Dome is there today, and it is an
                                attraction to many and it draws paying patrons into the valley, I guess,
                                hundreds each day who may not visit without this goal for their trip.
                                The money generated by these extra visitors is probably the overriding
                                economic factor for park management - 500 $20 car entrance tickets alone
                                each day is $10,000 in the bank. Do that for 3 months and you have a
                                million bucks you may not collect without the cables. Add money spent at
                                stores in the valley, and suddenly a set of cables that's not visible
                                from anywhere but up close by those who venture up there to take
                                advantage of them makes sense. The side effect of heavy trail erosion up
                                to the peak is something they have to deal with, though. The steep
                                section from Little Yosemite Valley to the HD trail intersection is
                                probably the most eroded and widest section of the entire JMT, although
                                compared to some French Alsp trails I have been on, this is in perfect
                                shape. This is all relative, I guess. In Europe, many trails are built
                                by erosion, nothing else.


                              • Kim Fishburn
                                The subject of Half Dome reminded me of this book. http://www.amazon.com/Off-Wall-Yosemite-Michael-Ghiglieri/dp/0970097360/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_c I think I read
                                Message 15 of 30 , Dec 9, 2010
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                                  The subject of Half Dome reminded me of this book.

                                  http://www.amazon.com/Off-Wall-Yosemite-Michael-Ghiglieri/dp/0970097360/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_c

                                  I think I read about it at http://yosemiteexplorer.com/ . I believe there is a series of similar books on other national parks. Looking at his site I'm reminded that the record for Happy Isles to the top of Half Dome and back is 2:28:18.




                                • Roleigh Martin
                                  good find -- I added this to my amazon High Sierra Wish List which we have a link to. I have read this book though:
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Dec 9, 2010
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                                    good find -- I added this to my amazon High Sierra Wish List which we have a link to.
                                     
                                    I have read this book though:
                                     
                                     
                                    It's available also in audiobook form.

                                    On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Kim Fishburn <outhiking_55@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    The subject of Half Dome reminded me of this book.

                                    http://www.amazon.com/Off-Wall-Yosemite-Michael-Ghiglieri/dp/0970097360/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_c

                                    I think I read about it at http://yosemiteexplorer.com/ . I believe there is a series of similar books on other national parks. Looking at his site I'm reminded that the record for Happy Isles to the top of Half Dome and back is 2:28:18.





                                  • John
                                    I can pretty much guarantee that leaving the cables in place has nothing to do with USNPS economics , and everything to do with politics and private sector
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Dec 9, 2010
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                                      I can pretty much guarantee that leaving the cables in place has nothing to do with USNPS "economics", and everything to do with politics and "private sector" economics. Most of my friends in VERY high places with Yosemite National Park would love to see the cables come down. Indeed, it has been considered. However, it will take a very strong Park superintendent to make that happen.
                                      With any luck, over time, the daily Half Dome quota will be reduced to a reasonable number of something less than 100.

                                      JD
                                      Walk the Sky: Following the John Muir Trail
                                      www.johndittli.com


                                      --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Peter Burke <pburke@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > On 12/9/2010 12:33 PM, Barbara Karagosian wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > But then subtract the costs of SARs and recovery and it may not make
                                      > > so much money for the park after all.
                                      >
                                      > but do they pay anything extra for that? They already have the ranger
                                      > staff, add a few volunteers, and the helicopter is there anyway unless
                                      > without Half Dome it's not needed any longer? You take the revenue away,
                                      > what are they using to pay for all those things?
                                      >
                                      > Interesting that all the statistics in the report don't include one word
                                      > about actual accidents or the number of SAR calls to that location.
                                      > Clearly they want to make it safer, so why no numbers on actual
                                      > incidents? The whole report essentially is about safety on the cables,
                                      > but only comments on people at one time on the cables without every
                                      > taking a look at actual events that required SAR and how those may
                                      > correlate to those high use days. Guess not much stuff actually happens
                                      > up there, or that data would be in the report.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > > Cheers, Barbara
                                      > >
                                      > > On Dec 9, 2010, at 9:12 AM, Peter Burke <pburke@...
                                      > > <mailto:pburke@...>> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >> On 12/9/2010 7:23 AM, judy wrote:
                                      > >> > I started the JMT on Friday 30 July last summer and the permit
                                      > >> system definitely made that part of the hike much more pleasant with
                                      > >> far fewer people on the trail. Those there, in general, seemed much
                                      > >> better prepared. Perhaps the permitting process provides an
                                      > >> opportunity for some pre-trip education (a good thing) in addition to
                                      > >> reducing the numbers on the cables. --Judy
                                      > >> >
                                      > >>
                                      > >> mostly the pleasant part was due to be out there on the least busy day
                                      > >> of the week, Friday (average 273 visitors per day, while Monday averaged
                                      > >> 732)
                                      > >>
                                      > >> http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/files/YOSE-Half%20Dome%20Trail%20Use.pdf
                                      > >>
                                      > >> on page 30 of the report you will also see that it was a 250 visitor day
                                      > >> on July 30, but just the Monday after that date, you would have shared
                                      > >> the trail with almost 900 people up to Half Dome Trail Junction. Permits
                                      > >> every day will come for sure to shave those peaks down to the same level
                                      > >> now seen on weekends and holidays, but it really doesn't address the
                                      > >> deeper issue - why are these cables up there in the first place?
                                      > >>
                                      > >> I find the whole thing with the cables is a far cry from the whole
                                      > >> untouched wilderness concept they seem to put so much emphasis on with
                                      > >> comparably minor impact issues such as fire circles and (the elimination
                                      > >> of) bear lockers in the backcountry. If the cables had not been put up
                                      > >> in a period with less concern for impact, they'd never be placed there
                                      > >> today.
                                      > >>
                                      > >> However, the cable route to Half Dome is there today, and it is an
                                      > >> attraction to many and it draws paying patrons into the valley, I guess,
                                      > >> hundreds each day who may not visit without this goal for their trip.
                                      > >> The money generated by these extra visitors is probably the overriding
                                      > >> economic factor for park management - 500 $20 car entrance tickets alone
                                      > >> each day is $10,000 in the bank. Do that for 3 months and you have a
                                      > >> million bucks you may not collect without the cables. Add money spent at
                                      > >> stores in the valley, and suddenly a set of cables that's not visible
                                      > >> from anywhere but up close by those who venture up there to take
                                      > >> advantage of them makes sense. The side effect of heavy trail erosion up
                                      > >> to the peak is something they have to deal with, though. The steep
                                      > >> section from Little Yosemite Valley to the HD trail intersection is
                                      > >> probably the most eroded and widest section of the entire JMT, although
                                      > >> compared to some French Alsp trails I have been on, this is in perfect
                                      > >> shape. This is all relative, I guess. In Europe, many trails are built
                                      > >> by erosion, nothing else.
                                      > >>
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • Linda Reitz
                                      Jophn, I was proud of myself the first time I made the summit at age 55! For us native Californians I think it is almost a rite of passage. To where I don t
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Dec 9, 2010
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                                        Jophn, I was proud of myself the first time I made the summit at age 55! For us native Californians I think it is almost a rite of passage. To where I don't know.
                                        Lind


                                        From: John Ladd <johnladd@...>
                                        To: johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 10:27:11 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [John Muir Trail] Re: Half Dome

                                         

                                        For a lot of California kids, the Half dome cable route gives them their first "bragging rights" in the outdoors.  While you wouldn't want to take a really little kid up there, it's probably doable safely with many kids (ones that will be careful) at age 10 or so and they are really proud of themselves once they "summit".

                                        John Curran Ladd
                                        1616 Castro Street
                                        San Francisco, CA  94114-3707
                                        415-648-9279


                                      • Barbara Karagosian
                                        I know 3 died from falls the year I did it. At least one of those was attempting it after the cables had been taken down in the autumn. Cheers, Barbara
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Dec 9, 2010
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                                          I know 3 died from falls the year I did it. At least one of those was attempting it after the cables had been taken down in the autumn. 

                                          Cheers, Barbara

                                          On Dec 9, 2010, at 11:07 AM, Peter Burke <pburke@...> wrote:

                                           

                                          On 12/9/2010 12:33 PM, Barbara Karagosian wrote:

                                          But then subtract the costs of SARs and recovery and it may not make so much money for the park after all.

                                          but do they pay anything extra for that? They already have the ranger staff, add a few volunteers, and the helicopter is there anyway unless without Half Dome it's not needed any longer? You take the revenue away, what are they using to pay for all those things? 

                                          Interesting that all the statistics in the report don't include one word about actual accidents or the number of SAR calls to that location. Clearly they want to make it safer, so why no numbers on actual incidents? The whole report essentially is about safety on the cables, but only comments on people at one time on the cables without every taking a look at actual events that required SAR and how those may correlate to those high use days. Guess not much stuff actually happens up there, or that data would be in the report.



                                          Cheers, Barbara

                                          On Dec 9, 2010, at 9:12 AM, Peter Burke <pburke@...> wrote:

                                           

                                          On 12/9/2010 7:23 AM, judy wrote:
                                          > I started the JMT on Friday 30 July last summer and the permit system definitely made that part of the hike much more pleasant with far fewer people on the trail. Those there, in general, seemed much better prepared. Perhaps the permitting process provides an opportunity for some pre-trip education (a good thing) in addition to reducing the numbers on the cables. --Judy
                                          >

                                          mostly the pleasant part was due to be out there on the least busy day
                                          of the week, Friday (average 273 visitors per day, while Monday averaged
                                          732)

                                          http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/files/YOSE-Half%20Dome%20Trail%20Use.pdf

                                          on page 30 of the report you will also see that it was a 250 visitor day
                                          on July 30, but just the Monday after that date, you would have shared
                                          the trail with almost 900 people up to Half Dome Trail Junction. Permits
                                          every day will come for sure to shave those peaks down to the same level
                                          now seen on weekends and holidays, but it really doesn't address the
                                          deeper issue - why are these cables up there in the first place?

                                          I find the whole thing with the cables is a far cry from the whole
                                          untouched wilderness concept they seem to put so much emphasis on with
                                          comparably minor impact issues such as fire circles and (the elimination
                                          of) bear lockers in the backcountry. If the cables had not been put up
                                          in a period with less concern for impact, they'd never be placed there
                                          today.

                                          However, the cable route to Half Dome is there today, and it is an
                                          attraction to many and it draws paying patrons into the valley, I guess,
                                          hundreds each day who may not visit without this goal for their trip.
                                          The money generated by these extra visitors is probably the overriding
                                          economic factor for park management - 500 $20 car entrance tickets alone
                                          each day is $10,000 in the bank. Do that for 3 months and you have a
                                          million bucks you may not collect without the cables. Add money spent at
                                          stores in the valley, and suddenly a set of cables that's not visible
                                          from anywhere but up close by those who venture up there to take
                                          advantage of them makes sense. The side effect of heavy trail erosion up
                                          to the peak is something they have to deal with, though. The steep
                                          section from Little Yosemite Valley to the HD trail intersection is
                                          probably the most eroded and widest section of the entire JMT, although
                                          compared to some French Alsp trails I have been on, this is in perfect
                                          shape. This is all relative, I guess. In Europe, many trails are built
                                          by erosion, nothing else.


                                        • Kim Fishburn
                                          Some of you might be interested in efforts remove the dam at Hetch Hetchy in Yosemite.
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Dec 10, 2010
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                                            Some of you might be interested in efforts remove the dam at Hetch Hetchy in Yosemite.

                                            http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2010/12/it-quioxtic-work-towards-restoration-hetch-hetchy-valley-yosemite-national-park7321
                                          • herbstroh@charter.net
                                            I hiked half dome about 4 years ago. The number of people on the cables was out-of-control (a Saturday in August). It took us a good 45 minutes to get down.
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Dec 10, 2010
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                                              I hiked half dome about 4 years ago. The number of people on the cables was
                                              out-of-control (a Saturday in August). It took us a good 45 minutes to get
                                              down. People became impatient, and started to go up and down on the outside
                                              of the cables. That works in some places, but they have to come inside to
                                              go around obstacles, and do not have the benefit of the 2x4s to perch on
                                              while waiting. It started to get ugly.

                                              Ahead of me was a 14-15 year old kid who was the last member of his group.
                                              He started to panic with the crush of people and didn't want to move. His
                                              lead group got too far ahead and apparently did not realize the kid iced
                                              over. I had to talk him down, encouraging him to walk down to the next set
                                              of poles and 2 bys whenever space opened up.

                                              Reaching the bottom there was--no exaggeration--150-200 people lined up to
                                              ascend. The line went past where the big rock near the base. I could not
                                              believe there was no control over the number of hikers on the cables.

                                              When we did the JMT in 2008 I knew I did not want to do HD again. We choose
                                              to go to Clouds Rest, and as Peter suggests, it is a far better experience.
                                              About 1,000 feet higher, the view is better and we even had it to ourselves
                                              for awhile. I am not a big fan of regulating and permitting everything, but
                                              in this case the Park Service needs to manage the numbers or pull the
                                              cables.

                                              Herb



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                                            • Ed Gilroy
                                              I have been up HD twice, the people and the risks are part of the experience. I wouldn t change a thing. I agree with Herb, if you don t like the crowds, do
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Dec 10, 2010
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                                                I have been up HD twice, the people and the risks are part of the experience. I wouldn't change a thing.

                                                I agree with Herb, if you don't like the crowds, do Clouds Rest from the other side (TM). Much more of a wilderness experience and the view is superior.

                                                Ed

                                                On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 11:55 AM, herbstroh@... <herbstroh@...> wrote:
                                                 

                                                I hiked half dome about 4 years ago. The number of people on the cables was
                                                out-of-control (a Saturday in August). It took us a good 45 minutes to get
                                                down. People became impatient, and started to go up and down on the outside
                                                of the cables. That works in some places, but they have to come inside to
                                                go around obstacles, and do not have the benefit of the 2x4s to perch on
                                                while waiting. It started to get ugly.

                                                Ahead of me was a 14-15 year old kid who was the last member of his group.
                                                He started to panic with the crush of people and didn't want to move. His
                                                lead group got too far ahead and apparently did not realize the kid iced
                                                over. I had to talk him down, encouraging him to walk down to the next set
                                                of poles and 2 bys whenever space opened up.

                                                Reaching the bottom there was--no exaggeration--150-200 people lined up to
                                                ascend. The line went past where the big rock near the base. I could not
                                                believe there was no control over the number of hikers on the cables.

                                                When we did the JMT in 2008 I knew I did not want to do HD again. We choose
                                                to go to Clouds Rest, and as Peter suggests, it is a far better experience.
                                                About 1,000 feet higher, the view is better and we even had it to ourselves
                                                for awhile. I am not a big fan of regulating and permitting everything, but
                                                in this case the Park Service needs to manage the numbers or pull the
                                                cables.

                                                Herb

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                                              • seatreesky
                                                Ah yes, Half Dome, I remember now! -postholer
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Dec 10, 2010
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                                                  Ah yes, Half Dome, I remember now!

                                                  -postholer

                                                • ekacura
                                                  Thanks for the info on Hetch Hetchy Kim, that s great to hear !!! A tribute to the great John Muir !
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Dec 11, 2010
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                                                    Thanks for the info on Hetch Hetchy Kim, that's great to hear !!! A tribute to the great John Muir !

                                                    --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Kim Fishburn <outhiking_55@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Some of you might be interested in efforts remove the dam at Hetch Hetchy in
                                                    > Yosemite.
                                                    >
                                                    > http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2010/12/it-quioxtic-work-towards-restoration-hetch-hetchy-valley-yosemite-national-park7321
                                                    >
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