27327[John Muir Trail] Re: Tuolomne permit
- Feb 13 4:35 PMThe puzzle is a classic and easy to solve, as long as you literally think outside the box, in other words the lines have to pass outside the box.
But other than that, I am urged to ask Roleigh, "What the..."?
--- In email@example.com, Roleigh Martin wrote:
> GK (I don't know your first name),
> Respectfully, I have never read of any ethical admonition that says "one
> can not think out of the box" which is what the alternative Trailhead
> Permit strategy represents. I see nothing unethical about it at all.
> Are those people who can solve this puzzle unethical? It's a great puzzle
> I came across in high school.
> One has to think outside the box to solve it.
> Anyway, the Yosemite National Park has complete control over their own
> rules and on the content of what is put on their JMT page.
> I think what we are hearing are the individual opinions of some people who
> work at Yosemite who dislike the rules in place and wish there were fewer
> people doing the JMT. I happen to think that some of these people happen
> to work in the wilderness permit office. I had my Mono Meadow permit
> request rejected last year but when I called up and talked to a ranger, I
> was able to get that rejected permit accepted. I just pointed out that the
> quota for that trail had not been consumed and that I was abiding by the
> rules on the JMT page and he agreed and let me have the permit.
> I do not think ethics requires JMT board members here to respect the
> unofficial wishes of all who work in the wilderness permit office but
> ethics does require that we are polite, attentive to the rules, and be
> honest in our communications, and when we are on the trail, to abide by the
> rules for the trail.
> As for the trails being crowded. I have not felt or experienced a problem
> myself on the trail. I suspect the head of Yosemite would be pleased if
> the quota system was fully utilized by hikers, despite how many miles they
> really want to hike once they get the permit, for then I would suspect that
> the budget for Yosemite could justifiably be maintained or increased for
> the next year.
> Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
> On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 12:50 PM, gkahn21 wrote:
> > **
> > 1 & 2.
> > I don't think they go out of their way to state using other trailheads at
> > all. They only list two trailheads, making it seem that those are the only
> > two ones, and don't mention other trailheads as a possibility. In my mind,
> > if they were to go out of their way to endorse using other trailheads, they
> > would simply state that.
> > A loophole is the same regardless if it is fairly obvious or buried as you
> > say in thousands of pages of tax law. It's still a loophole. And yes,
> > loopholes are legal, but that doesn't make them ethical or something that
> > should be done.
> > 3. We have heard plenty of stories about rangers being irked by JMT hikers
> > using non-traditional trailheads, so your experience might be different.
> > You might have encountered one but they just didn't say anything about it.
> > Plus, I doubt that a backcountry ranger in sequoia knows the intricacies of
> > the different trailheads in Yosemite and wouldn't know the difference
> > between traditional and non-traditional trailheads.
> > I agree that the rangers would want more hikers in the backcountry but
> > only to a point. I bet they wouldn't want unlimited hikers or too many
> > hikers and still would want limits on the number of hikers entering an area.
> > This alternative trailhead thing seems very odd to me. The whole purpose
> > of a trailhead quota system is to limit the amount of people in a certain
> > area so that there is not overuse. But with an alternative trailhead, after
> > spending a day going somewhere you don't really want to go, you can go
> > where you really wanted to go in the first place but was full. How does
> > that limit overcrowding at all? Plus there is a multitude of alternative
> > trailheads, so as long as you spend one night away from the JMT, you can
> > hike the whole JMT. It's practically unlimited. I don't get how that makes
> > sense. Have you had anyone not be able to get a JMT permit using some sort
> > of alternative trailhead? With all the limitations on Half Dome in the
> > recent years, I'm just worried something like that will happen for the JMT
> > too and make it harder for people who try to do the right thing.
> > --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, Roleigh Martin wrote:
> > >
> > > John,
> > >
> > > Good points. The way I look at it is I see these things happening:
> > >
> > > 1. Yosemite goes out of the way on their JMT page:
> > > http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/jmt.htm
> > > to state
> > >
> > > *John Muir Trail*
> > > If you plan to hike the John Muir Trail as a continuous hike, you only
> > need
> > > one wilderness permit
> > > for
> > > the entire trip (you do not need a "Whitney stamp"). Most people begin
> > the
> > > hike at Happy Isles (its traditional start in Yosemite Valley), however
> > > many people begin at Lyell Canyon (Tuolumne Meadows) because permits for
> > > this trailhead are slightly easier to obtain. There is no special JMT
> > > permit.
> > >
> > > 2. Abiding literally by the above does not seem like that akin to going
> > > through thousands of pages of tax law to find a loophole. It seems to me
> > > when people get these less popular permits to do the JMT, they're just
> > > following the above paragraph to the "T". It seems to me that those in
> > the
> > > Park Service who say "yea but normally hikers do it via routes a,b,c" are
> > > not talking based upon any published rule but rather traditional pattern
> > > recognition of how permits were done.
> > >
> > > 3. Some of the backcountry rangers I've talked to on the JMT tell me that
> > > they're job security is dependent upon having adequate hikers do remote
> > > backcountry long distance hikes and they're all for seeing people on the
> > > JMT. I have not met one backcountry ranger who is irked by JMT hikers who
> > > are doing the JMT via non-traditional entry TH permits.
> > >
> > > 4. As for your comment about half-dome hikers and the JMT, I wonder if
> > > that is not already happening, for the number of JMT permits seems to be
> > > far higher than those who complete the JMT. I know we've had this
> > > discussion before so I will grant you that the JMT seems to be getting
> > more
> > > popular, but that has to be very recent in light of conversations I've
> > had
> > > with backcountry rangers only 2-3 years ago about usage on the JMT. Back
> > > then, (a few years ago), rangers were complaining about the lack of
> > > backpackers now versus 20-30 years ago.
> > >
> > > Roleigh
> > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------
> > > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
> > > links)
> > >
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