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27327[John Muir Trail] Re: Tuolomne permit

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  • charliepolecat
    Feb 13 4:35 PM
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      The puzzle is a classic and easy to solve, as long as you literally think outside the box, in other words the lines have to pass outside the box.

      But other than that, I am urged to ask Roleigh, "What the..."?



      --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin wrote:
      >
      > GK (I don't know your first name),
      >
      > Respectfully, I have never read of any ethical admonition that says "one
      > can not think out of the box" which is what the alternative Trailhead
      > Permit strategy represents. I see nothing unethical about it at all.
      >
      > Are those people who can solve this puzzle unethical? It's a great puzzle
      > I came across in high school.
      >
      > http://mathforum.org/k12/k12puzzles/join.dots.html
      >
      > One has to think outside the box to solve it.
      >
      > Anyway, the Yosemite National Park has complete control over their own
      > rules and on the content of what is put on their JMT page.
      >
      > I think what we are hearing are the individual opinions of some people who
      > work at Yosemite who dislike the rules in place and wish there were fewer
      > people doing the JMT. I happen to think that some of these people happen
      > to work in the wilderness permit office. I had my Mono Meadow permit
      > request rejected last year but when I called up and talked to a ranger, I
      > was able to get that rejected permit accepted. I just pointed out that the
      > quota for that trail had not been consumed and that I was abiding by the
      > rules on the JMT page and he agreed and let me have the permit.
      >
      > I do not think ethics requires JMT board members here to respect the
      > unofficial wishes of all who work in the wilderness permit office but
      > ethics does require that we are polite, attentive to the rules, and be
      > honest in our communications, and when we are on the trail, to abide by the
      > rules for the trail.
      >
      > As for the trails being crowded. I have not felt or experienced a problem
      > myself on the trail. I suspect the head of Yosemite would be pleased if
      > the quota system was fully utilized by hikers, despite how many miles they
      > really want to hike once they get the permit, for then I would suspect that
      > the budget for Yosemite could justifiably be maintained or increased for
      > the next year.
      >
      > Roleigh
      > -------------------------------------------------
      > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
      > links)
      > _
      >
      >
      >
      > On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 12:50 PM, gkahn21 wrote:
      >
      > > **
      > >
      > >
      > > 1 & 2.
      > >
      > > I don't think they go out of their way to state using other trailheads at
      > > all. They only list two trailheads, making it seem that those are the only
      > > two ones, and don't mention other trailheads as a possibility. In my mind,
      > > if they were to go out of their way to endorse using other trailheads, they
      > > would simply state that.
      > >
      > > A loophole is the same regardless if it is fairly obvious or buried as you
      > > say in thousands of pages of tax law. It's still a loophole. And yes,
      > > loopholes are legal, but that doesn't make them ethical or something that
      > > should be done.
      > >
      > > 3. We have heard plenty of stories about rangers being irked by JMT hikers
      > > using non-traditional trailheads, so your experience might be different.
      > > You might have encountered one but they just didn't say anything about it.
      > > Plus, I doubt that a backcountry ranger in sequoia knows the intricacies of
      > > the different trailheads in Yosemite and wouldn't know the difference
      > > between traditional and non-traditional trailheads.
      > >
      > > I agree that the rangers would want more hikers in the backcountry but
      > > only to a point. I bet they wouldn't want unlimited hikers or too many
      > > hikers and still would want limits on the number of hikers entering an area.
      > >
      > > This alternative trailhead thing seems very odd to me. The whole purpose
      > > of a trailhead quota system is to limit the amount of people in a certain
      > > area so that there is not overuse. But with an alternative trailhead, after
      > > spending a day going somewhere you don't really want to go, you can go
      > > where you really wanted to go in the first place but was full. How does
      > > that limit overcrowding at all? Plus there is a multitude of alternative
      > > trailheads, so as long as you spend one night away from the JMT, you can
      > > hike the whole JMT. It's practically unlimited. I don't get how that makes
      > > sense. Have you had anyone not be able to get a JMT permit using some sort
      > > of alternative trailhead? With all the limitations on Half Dome in the
      > > recent years, I'm just worried something like that will happen for the JMT
      > > too and make it harder for people who try to do the right thing.
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In johnmuirtrail@yahoogroups.com, Roleigh Martin wrote:
      > > >
      > > > John,
      > > >
      > > > Good points. The way I look at it is I see these things happening:
      > > >
      > > > 1. Yosemite goes out of the way on their JMT page:
      > > > http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/jmt.htm
      > > > to state
      > > >
      > > > *John Muir Trail*
      > >
      > > > If you plan to hike the John Muir Trail as a continuous hike, you only
      > > need
      > > > one wilderness permit
      > > > for
      > > > the entire trip (you do not need a "Whitney stamp"). Most people begin
      > > the
      > > > hike at Happy Isles (its traditional start in Yosemite Valley), however
      > > > many people begin at Lyell Canyon (Tuolumne Meadows) because permits for
      > > > this trailhead are slightly easier to obtain. There is no special JMT
      > > > permit.
      > > >
      > > > 2. Abiding literally by the above does not seem like that akin to going
      > > > through thousands of pages of tax law to find a loophole. It seems to me
      > > > when people get these less popular permits to do the JMT, they're just
      > > > following the above paragraph to the "T". It seems to me that those in
      > > the
      > > > Park Service who say "yea but normally hikers do it via routes a,b,c" are
      > > > not talking based upon any published rule but rather traditional pattern
      > > > recognition of how permits were done.
      > > >
      > > > 3. Some of the backcountry rangers I've talked to on the JMT tell me that
      > > > they're job security is dependent upon having adequate hikers do remote
      > > > backcountry long distance hikes and they're all for seeing people on the
      > > > JMT. I have not met one backcountry ranger who is irked by JMT hikers who
      > > > are doing the JMT via non-traditional entry TH permits.
      > > >
      > > > 4. As for your comment about half-dome hikers and the JMT, I wonder if
      > > > that is not already happening, for the number of JMT permits seems to be
      > > > far higher than those who complete the JMT. I know we've had this
      > > > discussion before so I will grant you that the JMT seems to be getting
      > > more
      > > > popular, but that has to be very recent in light of conversations I've
      > > had
      > > > with backcountry rangers only 2-3 years ago about usage on the JMT. Back
      > > > then, (a few years ago), rangers were complaining about the lack of
      > > > backpackers now versus 20-30 years ago.
      > > >
      > > > Roleigh
      > > >
      > > > -------------------------------------------------
      > > > Visit my Google Profile (lots of very interesting research
      > > > links)
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
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