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Re: [John_Lit] FG and Synoptics

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  • Peter Hofrichter
    Once more to the feeding stories: One has to realize that Mark duplicated the feeding story in order to argue the separation of the tables of jewish and
    Message 1 of 51 , Dec 31, 1969
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      Once more to the feeding stories: One has to realize that Mark duplicated the feeding story in order to argue the separation of the tables of jewish and heathen Christians along with his authorities Peter and James. He dates this seperation back to Jesus himselve. His source is the feeding story in what you may call proto-"John". Matthew stresses once more the authority of Peter and follows Mark. Luke as pupil of Paul returns to only one feeding, because Paul opposed to the seperation of tabeles as he tells us in Acts.

      Compare my article: Von den zwei Speisungen des Markus zu den zwei Aussendungen des Lukas. Die Auseinandersetzung um die paulinischen Heidenmission in der synoptischen Tradition, in: J. Hainz (Hg.), “Theologie im Werden³, Gedenkschrift für O. Kuss, Düsseldorf 1992, 143-155.
      And also: Modell und Vorlage der Synoptiker ­ Das vorredaktionelle Johannesevangelium, Darmstadt (Georg-Olms-Verlag), 206 Seiten, 1997, 42-46.

      Univ.-Prof. DDr. Peter Hofrichter
      Vorstand des Instituts für Kirchengeschichte und Patrologie
      Universitätsplatz 1, A-5020 Salzburg, Austria
      Tel +43/662/8044/2700, 2704, Fax 2709
      privat: Wallmannhofstrasse 3, A-5400 Hallein, Austria
      Tel/Fax +43/6245/85010, +43/664/2027098
      Homepage: http://www.sbg.ac.at/kig/fs2.htm
    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
      ... Irenaeus is writing towared the end of the Second Century C.E. -- about 180, correct? By decadence , I presume that you mean highly developed . Yes,
      Message 51 of 51 , Nov 6, 2000
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        Peter Hofrichter wrote:

        > Of course, we have no direct litterary evidence
        > [for believing that Gnosticism might date to the 30s
        > or40s], but some indirect:
        >
        > Our sources of the 2nd century, especially Irenaeus,
        > show alredy a big variety and decadence of the
        > gnostic speculations and systems. This implies
        > already a long development.

        Irenaeus is writing towared the end of the Second
        Century C.E. -- about 180, correct?

        By "decadence", I presume that you mean "highly
        developed". Yes, there were a number of highly
        developed Gnostic Systems, but I don't know that this
        implies a long development.

        Manichaeism, for instance, was from its origin a
        highly developed Gnostic system. Mani took from many
        sources to develop his own complex Gnostic religion --
        arguably, the most highly developed of them all. He
        did this within about 40 years, and he probably had it
        all worked out in fewer.

        > Irenaeus traces gnosticism back to Simon Magus of
        > Lukes Acts of the Aposles who became acquainted to
        > the Jesus-movement through Philippus, probably in
        > the cirties. I dont think theat Simon Magus was the
        > very founder of gnosticism but a prominent and
        > especially negative representative in a broader
        > stream mainly within the hellenistic Church.

        I don't think that we have any solid evidence that
        Simon Magus was really a Gnostic. Irenaeus is writing
        many years later and may be conflating heresies. I
        don't see much in Acts to support the view that Simon
        Magus was a Gnostic.

        > Most gnostic mythologies are derived from the
        > prologue of John without showing any trace of the
        > FG. That means they had its common origin before
        > Logos-Hymn was commented by the author of the FG and
        > included in his work.

        Is it the case that most Gnostic mythologies were
        derived from John's prologue? And do you really mean
        that -- you seem, rather, to mean that the Gnostics
        uses an extra-Johannine version of a proto-Johannine
        Logos Hymn.

        Perhaps this is too far from Johannine themes for us
        to continue -- though Bultmann's Gnostic hypothesis
        concerning the fourth gospel still holds an attraction
        for some scholars, so there might be reason to
        continue. I suppose that we could see if others have
        any interest in this thread.

        Jeffery Hodges

        =====
        Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges, Lecturer
        College of Continuing Education
        Kyungnam University
        449 Wolyoung-Dong, Habpo-Gu
        Masan, Kyungnam 631-701
        Republic of Korea

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