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Re: [John_Lit] Son of Man?

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  • Felix Just, S.J.
    ... Frank - Since your book is unfortunately not available in many libraries here on the West Coast, I can t easily check it to see how you might answer the
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 9, 2000
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      Mary Margaret Pazdan wrote:

      > The question of the "Son of Man" in the Synoptics and the Fourth Gospel is
      > a proverbial one among scholars. I dealt with it in a monograph...

      and Francis Moloney wrote:

      > Dare I enter? As nothing has been said, I suppose I should. I wrote a large
      > volume on the Johannine Son of Man as my Oxford D. Phil. thesis. It went
      > through two editions in three years, and is generally regarded as the basic
      > treatment of the question.

      Frank - Since your book is unfortunately not available in many libraries here on
      the West Coast, I can't easily check it to see how you might answer the question
      posed Saturday by Bill Skelton (referring to Walter Wink) about the explicit
      "tou" in the expression "ho huios tou anthropou". Based on your own research,
      could you briefly summarize the arguments about whether it should be translated
      "the Son of Man" or possibly "the Son of THE Man"?

      Mary Margaret Pazdan - Your "Son of Man" book is generally available, but
      unfortuntaly not to me right now while I'm on leave this semester. So could you
      also offer a response to the same question?

      Thanks!
      Felix
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Felix Just, S.J. -- Dept. of Theological Studies
      Loyola Marymount University -- 7900 Loyola Blvd.
      Los Angeles, CA 90045-8400 -- (310) 338-5933
      Website: http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~fjust
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    • mesfin
      ... From: Francis Moloney To: johannine_literature@egroups.com Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 11:02 AM Subject: [John_Lit] Son of Man? Dear Everyone, Dare I
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 9, 2000
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        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 11:02 AM
        Subject: [John_Lit] Son of Man?

        Dear Everyone,
         
        Dare I enter?  As nothing has been said, I suppose I should.  I wrote a large volume on the Johannine Son of Man as my Oxford D. Phil. thesis.  It went through two editions in three years, and is generally regarded as the basic treatment of the question.  There are several issues that I would look at again at this stage of my life, but its basic orientation is - I believe (with the exception of 3:13 and 6:62) - OK.  As well as my study, there have been some important studies since that have not been mentioned, especially Lindars and Hare.
         
        As many in the group know, my "Johannine Son of Man" is now out of print.  However, I have all remaining copies.  If anyone is interested, let me know, and I can let you have it for $10US.
         
        Frank Moloney, SDB
        The Catholic University of America.

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        --------------
        this is for Frank Moloney,
         
        I like to get a copy of your "Johannine Son of Man." how can I make the payment? I am in Toronto Canada. 
         
        Mesfin Atlaye
        A doctoral student at Wycliffe.
         
      • Jack Kilmon
        ... From: Felix Just, S.J. To: Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 1:38 PM Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Son
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 9, 2000
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Felix Just, S.J." <fjust@...>
          To: <johannine_literature@egroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 1:38 PM
          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Son of Man?


          > Mary Margaret Pazdan wrote:
          >
          > > The question of the "Son of Man" in the Synoptics and the Fourth Gospel
          is
          > > a proverbial one among scholars. I dealt with it in a monograph...
          >
          > and Francis Moloney wrote:
          >
          > > Dare I enter? As nothing has been said, I suppose I should. I wrote a
          large
          > > volume on the Johannine Son of Man as my Oxford D. Phil. thesis. It
          went
          > > through two editions in three years, and is generally regarded as the
          basic
          > > treatment of the question.
          >
          > Frank - Since your book is unfortunately not available in many libraries
          here on
          > the West Coast, I can't easily check it to see how you might answer the
          question
          > posed Saturday by Bill Skelton (referring to Walter Wink) about the
          explicit
          > "tou" in the expression "ho huios tou anthropou". Based on your own
          research,
          > could you briefly summarize the arguments about whether it should be
          translated
          > "the Son of Man" or possibly "the Son of THE Man"?
          >
          > Mary Margaret Pazdan - Your "Son of Man" book is generally available, but
          > unfortuntaly not to me right now while I'm on leave this semester. So
          could you
          > also offer a response to the same question?

          I would also be interested in the responses and how the Greek translation is
          relevent
          to the Aramaic brh d)n$). The proclitic d' is "of" and indicates possession
          of the
          previous word. Since I see the self referent as bareh d'nasha rather than
          ho huios
          tou anthropou, should we examine the Greek in the absence of the Aramaic?

          Jack
        • Bill Skelton
          Jack (& everyone) 1) Let me repeat reproduce Wink s citation of something from Morna Hooker which may be relevant to the question you are raising. If the
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 9, 2000
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            Jack (& everyone)

            1) Let me repeat reproduce Wink's citation of something from Morna Hooker
            which may be relevant to the question you are raising.

            "If the phrase was a common expression for "I" in Aramaic, then the use of
            the barbaric Greek phrase [ho huios tou anthropou] seems an inexplicable
            blunder, the fact that it was thought necessary to use this translationese
            suggests that there was already something a little unusual and special about
            the aramaic equivalent [bar enasha], even in an Aramaic speaking Community"
            (reference is given in note 6 of the Wink article attached to my first
            posting on this thread.)

            2) Wink points out that the equivalent Hebrew phrase in the OT, "ben adam",
            is used most often in Ezekiel. The prophet sees a vision of God as an
            apparently human figure. But then God goes on to address Ezekial as himself
            as "ben adam", "son of man". Wink, if I understand him correctly, takes this
            to mean that Ezekiel is being called the "son" of this figure, of God
            manifested as a "human figure".

            Bill Skelton
            wskelton76@...





            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
            To: <johannine_literature@egroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 5:47 PM
            Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Son of Man?


            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Felix Just, S.J." <fjust@...>
            > To: <johannine_literature@egroups.com>
            > Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 1:38 PM
            > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Son of Man?
            >
            >
            > > Mary Margaret Pazdan wrote:
            > >
            > > > The question of the "Son of Man" in the Synoptics and the Fourth
            Gospel
            > is
            > > > a proverbial one among scholars. I dealt with it in a monograph...
            > >
            > > and Francis Moloney wrote:
            > >
            > > > Dare I enter? As nothing has been said, I suppose I should. I wrote
            a
            > large
            > > > volume on the Johannine Son of Man as my Oxford D. Phil. thesis. It
            > went
            > > > through two editions in three years, and is generally regarded as the
            > basic
            > > > treatment of the question.
            > >
            > > Frank - Since your book is unfortunately not available in many libraries
            > here on
            > > the West Coast, I can't easily check it to see how you might answer the
            > question
            > > posed Saturday by Bill Skelton (referring to Walter Wink) about the
            > explicit
            > > "tou" in the expression "ho huios tou anthropou". Based on your own
            > research,
            > > could you briefly summarize the arguments about whether it should be
            > translated
            > > "the Son of Man" or possibly "the Son of THE Man"?
            > >
            > > Mary Margaret Pazdan - Your "Son of Man" book is generally available,
            but
            > > unfortuntaly not to me right now while I'm on leave this semester. So
            > could you
            > > also offer a response to the same question?
            >
            > I would also be interested in the responses and how the Greek translation
            is
            > relevent
            > to the Aramaic brh d)n$). The proclitic d' is "of" and indicates
            possession
            > of the
            > previous word. Since I see the self referent as bareh d'nasha rather than
            > ho huios
            > tou anthropou, should we examine the Greek in the absence of the Aramaic?
            >
            > Jack
            >
            >
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            >
          • ProfRam@aol.com
            I have always thought that ho huios tou anthropou in Greek was formed on the model of ho huios tou theou. Does the latter mean the son of the god ? Ramsey
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 9, 2000
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              I have always thought that ho huios tou anthropou in Greek was formed on the
              model of ho huios tou theou. Does the latter mean "the son of the god"?

              Ramsey Michaels
            • SUN
              Dear Frank, I would love to have two copies, one for my own library, the other for my seminary s library. How would that work out? Would you mind sending me
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 9, 2000
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                Dear Frank,

                I would love to have two copies, one for my own library, the other for my seminary's library.  How would that work out? Would you mind sending me through mail?  Please let me konw.

                Poling Sun
                Hong Kong Baptist Theological Seminary

                Francis Moloney wrote:

                Dear Everyone, Dare I enter?  As nothing has been said, I suppose I should.  I wrote a large volume on the Johannine Son of Man as my Oxford D. Phil. thesis.  It went through two editions in three years, and is generally regarded as the basic treatment of the question.  There are several issues that I would look at again at this stage of my life, but its basic orientation is - I believe (with the exception of 3:13 and 6:62) - OK.  As well as my study, there have been some important studies since that have not been mentioned, especially Lindars and Hare. As many in the group know, my "Johannine Son of Man" is now out of print.  However, I have all remaining copies.  If anyone is interested, let me know, and I can let you have it for $10US. Frank Moloney, SDBThe Catholic University of America.


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              • Bill Skelton
                ... the ... This is new to me and perhaps to other non-scholars on the list as well. Is it really true that ho huios tou theou was the model for the phrase
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 9, 2000
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                  Prof. Michaels wrote:

                  > I have always thought that ho huios tou anthropou in Greek was formed on
                  the
                  > model of ho huios tou theou. Does the latter mean "the son of the god"?
                  >
                  > Ramsey Michaels

                  This is new to me and perhaps to other non-scholars on the list as well.

                  Is it really true that "ho huios tou theou" was the model for the phrase in
                  question? If it isn't too involved, would you be able say something about
                  the basis is of this belief and/or how well founded it is?

                  -Bill Skelton
                  wskelton76@...



                  >
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                  >
                  >
                • ProfRam@aol.com
                  Where else would we get such an odd Greek expression as ho huios tou anthropou, on the (Aramaic or Hebrew) basis of bar enosh or bar nasha? Ramsey Michaels
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 9, 2000
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                    Where else would we get such an odd Greek expression as ho huios tou
                    anthropou, on the (Aramaic or Hebrew) basis of bar 'enosh or bar nasha?

                    Ramsey Michaels
                  • wcmills
                    Francis: I would like to have a copy as well, but how do I make a payment? Need address too. Thanks. Fr. Mills
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 10, 2000
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                      Francis:

                      I would like to have a copy as well, but how do I make a payment? Need address too.

                      Thanks.
                       

                      Fr. Mills

                      mesfin wrote:

                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 11:02 AM
                      Subject: [John_Lit] Son of Man?
                       Dear Everyone, Dare I enter?  As nothing has been said, I suppose I should.  I wrote a large volume on the Johannine Son of Man as my Oxford D. Phil. thesis.  It went through two editions in three years, and is generally regarded as the basic treatment of the question.  There are several issues that I would look at again at this stage of my life, but its basic orientation is - I believe (with the exception of 3:13 and 6:62) - OK.  As well as my study, there have been some important studies since that have not been mentioned, especially Lindars and Hare. As many in the group know, my "Johannine Son of Man" is now out of print.  However, I have all remaining copies.  If anyone is interested, let me know, and I can let you have it for $10US. Frank Moloney, SDBThe Catholic University of America. 
                      SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@egroups.com
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                      PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@egroups.com --------------this is for Frank Moloney, I like to get a copy of your "Johannine Son of Man." how can I make the payment? I am in Toronto Canada. Mesfin AtlayeA doctoral student at Wycliffe.mesfin@... 


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                    • Francis J. Moloney, SDB
                      Dear Fr Mills, If you will let me have your address, I will send off a copy immediately. I will charge the $10US and some postage (depending on where you
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 10, 2000
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                        Dear Fr Mills,
                         
                        If you will let me have your address, I will send off a copy immediately.  I will charge the $10US and some postage (depending on where you are), and the address will be on a note.  However, I am at: Biblical Studies Department, The Catholic University of America, Washington, DC 20064, USA.  However, do not send a check until you have the book from me.
                         
                        Let me have your address and I will get it off to you.
                         
                        Regards,
                         
                        Frank Moloney, SDB
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: wcmills <wcmills@...>
                        To: johannine_literature@egroups.com <johannine_literature@egroups.com>
                        Date: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 9:13 AM
                        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Son of Man?

                        Francis:

                        I would like to have a copy as well, but how do I make a payment? Need address too.

                        Thanks.
                         

                        Fr. Mills

                        mesfin wrote:

                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 11:02 AM
                        Subject: [John_Lit] Son of Man?
                         Dear Everyone, Dare I enter?  As nothing has been said, I suppose I should.  I wrote a large volume on the Johannine Son of Man as my Oxford D. Phil. thesis.  It went through two editions in three years, and is generally regarded as the basic treatment of the question.  There are several issues that I would look at again at this stage of my life, but its basic orientation is - I believe (with the exception of 3:13 and 6:62) - OK.  As well as my study, there have been some important studies since that have not been mentioned, especially Lindars and Hare. As many in the group know, my "Johannine Son of Man" is now out of print.  However, I have all remaining copies.  If anyone is interested, let me know, and I can let you have it for $10US. Frank Moloney, SDBThe Catholic University of America. 
                        SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@egroups.com
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                        PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@egroups.com --------------this is for Frank Moloney, I like to get a copy of your "Johannine Son of Man." how can I make the payment? I am in Toronto Canada. Mesfin AtlayeA doctoral student at Wycliffe.mesfin@... 


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                      • mesfin
                        ... From: Francis J. Moloney, SDB To: johannine_literature@egroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 9:19 AM Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Son of Man? Dear Frank,
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 10, 2000
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                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 9:19 AM
                          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Son of Man?
                           
                          Dear Frank,
                           
                          Does your reply to Fr. Mills applys to us outsiders too? I mean, outside of U.S.A. Once again I am interested in your book and would like to pay for one copy.
                           
                          Mesfin Atlaye
                          Doctoral Student at Wycliffe
                          Toronto.
                          ------------------------------------------------------------------
                           
                           
                           
                           
                          Dear Fr Mills,
                          If you will let me have your address, I will send off a copy immediately.  I will charge the $10US and some postage (depending on where you are), and the address will be on a note.  However, I am at: Biblical Studies Department, The Catholic University of America, Washington, DC 20064, USA.  However, do not send a check until you have the book from me.
                           
                          Let me have your address and I will get it off to you.
                           
                          Regards,
                           
                          Frank Moloney, SDB
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: wcmills <wcmills@...>
                          To: johannine_literature@egroups.com <johannine_literature@egroups.com>
                          Date: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 9:13 AM
                          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Son of Man?

                          Francis:

                          I would like to have a copy as well, but how do I make a payment? Need address too.

                          Thanks.
                           

                          Fr. Mills

                          mesfin wrote:

                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 11:02 AM
                          Subject: [John_Lit] Son of Man?
                           Dear Everyone, Dare I enter?  As nothing has been said, I suppose I should.  I wrote a large volume on the Johannine Son of Man as my Oxford D. Phil. thesis.  It went through two editions in three years, and is generally regarded as the basic treatment of the question.  There are several issues that I would look at again at this stage of my life, but its basic orientation is - I believe (with the exception of 3:13 and 6:62) - OK.  As well as my study, there have been some important studies since that have not been mentioned, especially Lindars and Hare. As many in the group know, my "Johannine Son of Man" is now out of print.  However, I have all remaining copies.  If anyone is interested, let me know, and I can let you have it for $10US. Frank Moloney, SDBThe Catholic University of America. 
                          SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@egroups.com
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                          PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@egroups.com --------------this is for Frank Moloney, I like to get a copy of your "Johannine Son of Man." how can I make the payment? I am in Toronto Canada. Mesfin AtlayeA doctoral student at Wycliffe.mesfin@... 


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                        • mesfin
                          ... From: mesfin To: johannine_literature@egroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Son of Man? Dear Frank, Does your reply
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 10, 2000
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                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: mesfin
                            Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 11:15 AM
                            Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Son of Man?

                             
                            Dear Frank,
                             
                            Does your reply to Fr. Mills applys to us outsiders too? I mean, outside of U.S.A. Once again I am interested in your book and would like to pay for one copy.
                             
                            Mesfin Atlaye
                            Doctoral Student at Wycliffe
                            Toronto.
                            ------------------------------------------------------------------
                             
                             
                             
                             
                            Dear Fr Mills,
                            If you will let me have your address, I will send off a copy immediately.  I will charge the $10US and some postage (depending on where you are), and the address will be on a note.  However, I am at: Biblical Studies Department, The Catholic University of America, Washington, DC 20064, USA.  However, do not send a check until you have the book from me.
                             
                            Let me have your address and I will get it off to you.
                             
                            Regards,
                             
                            Frank Moloney, SDB
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: wcmills <wcmills@...>
                            To: johannine_literature@egroups.com <johannine_literature@egroups.com>
                            Date: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 9:13 AM
                            Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Son of Man?

                            Francis:

                            I would like to have a copy as well, but how do I make a payment? Need address too.

                            Thanks.
                             

                            Fr. Mills

                            mesfin wrote:

                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 11:02 AM
                            Subject: [John_Lit] Son of Man?
                             Dear Everyone, Dare I enter?  As nothing has been said, I suppose I should.  I wrote a large volume on the Johannine Son of Man as my Oxford D. Phil. thesis.  It went through two editions in three years, and is generally regarded as the basic treatment of the question.  There are several issues that I would look at again at this stage of my life, but its basic orientation is - I believe (with the exception of 3:13 and 6:62) - OK.  As well as my study, there have been some important studies since that have not been mentioned, especially Lindars and Hare. As many in the group know, my "Johannine Son of Man" is now out of print.  However, I have all remaining copies.  If anyone is interested, let me know, and I can let you have it for $10US. Frank Moloney, SDBThe Catholic University of America. 
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                            PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@egroups.com --------------this is for Frank Moloney, I like to get a copy of your "Johannine Son of Man." how can I make the payment? I am in Toronto Canada. Mesfin AtlayeA doctoral student at Wycliffe.mesfin@... 


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                          • Francis Moloney
                            Dear Polling Sun, I am sorry to have to use the list, but your email address is not on your submission. Please send me your address at MOLONEY@cua.edu. I
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 10, 2000
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                              Dear Polling Sun,
                               
                              I am sorry to have to use the list, but your email address is not on your submission.  Please send me your address at MOLONEY@....  I will certainly send 2 copies.
                               
                              Thanks for your interest.  And the same to all the group.  Sorry for these intrusions.
                               
                              Frank Moloney
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: SUN
                              Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 4:14 PM
                              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Son of Man?

                              Dear Frank,

                              I would love to have two copies, one for my own library, the other for my seminary's library.  How would that work out? Would you mind sending me through mail?  Please let me konw.

                              Poling Sun
                              Hong Kong Baptist Theological Seminary

                              Francis Moloney wrote:

                              Dear Everyone, Dare I enter?  As nothing has been said, I suppose I should.  I wrote a large volume on the Johannine Son of Man as my Oxford D. Phil. thesis.  It went through two editions in three years, and is generally regarded as the basic treatment of the question.  There are several issues that I would look at again at this stage of my life, but its basic orientation is - I believe (with the exception of 3:13 and 6:62) - OK.  As well as my study, there have been some important studies since that have not been mentioned, especially Lindars and Hare. As many in the group know, my "Johannine Son of Man" is now out of print.  However, I have all remaining copies.  If anyone is interested, let me know, and I can let you have it for $10US. Frank Moloney, SDBThe Catholic University of America.


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                            • C.W..Wali van Lohuizen
                              Dear Frank Moloney Only now I am aware of the possibility of obtaining your book. If there is a spare copy still, I would appriciate to get one. Payment from
                              Message 14 of 18 , Oct 13, 2000
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                                Dear Frank Moloney
                                Only now I am aware of the possibility of obtaining your book.
                                If there is a spare copy still, I would appriciate to get one.
                                Payment from Holland might be a problem, as sending the book might be
                                cumbersome.
                                I will be at Nashville. If you would be there, we could exchange. Or with
                                somebody on your behalf?
                                I am looking forward hearing from you,
                                Wali van Lohuizen
                                Singel 170-172
                                1015 AH Amsterdam, Holland
                              • Francis J. Moloney, SDB
                                Dear Wali, I am putting a copy of The Johannine Son of Man in the mail for you today. As far as payment is concerned, I will not be at the SBL meeting. I
                                Message 15 of 18 , Oct 16, 2000
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                                  Dear Wali,

                                  I am putting a copy of "The Johannine Son of Man" in the mail for you today.
                                  As far as payment is concerned, I will not be at the SBL meeting. I always
                                  go, but find that they are getting bigger, weaker, and more confused each
                                  year.

                                  For payment, while you are in the USA, just put $14 in an envelope and send
                                  it to me while you are in the USA. My address is:

                                  Professor Francis J. Moloney, SDB
                                  Department of Biblical Studies
                                  The Catholic University of America
                                  Washington, DC 20064

                                  That should cover all costs. Thanks for your interest, and good reading!

                                  Regards,

                                  Frank Moloney

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: C.W..Wali van Lohuizen <BPBwalisufi@...>
                                  To: INTERNET:johannine_literature@egroups.com
                                  <johannine_literature@egroups.com>
                                  Date: Friday, October 13, 2000 5:16 AM
                                  Subject: [John_Lit] Son of Man?


                                  >Dear Frank Moloney
                                  >Only now I am aware of the possibility of obtaining your book.
                                  >If there is a spare copy still, I would appriciate to get one.
                                  >Payment from Holland might be a problem, as sending the book might be
                                  >cumbersome.
                                  >I will be at Nashville. If you would be there, we could exchange. Or with
                                  >somebody on your behalf?
                                  >I am looking forward hearing from you,
                                  >Wali van Lohuizen
                                  >Singel 170-172
                                  >1015 AH Amsterdam, Holland
                                  >
                                  >SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@egroups.com
                                  >UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                  >PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@egroups.com
                                  >
                                • C.W..Wali van Lohuizen
                                  Dear Frank, Thank you for taking care. I feel honored to get your book in this personal way. Yes, payment in this way is practical. Thanks for the trouble, .
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Oct 16, 2000
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                                    Dear Frank,
                                    Thank you for taking care. I feel honored to get your book in this personal
                                    way.
                                    Yes, payment in this way is practical.
                                    Thanks for the trouble,\.

                                    Wali
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