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Re: [John_Lit] Re: Logos in John and Philo

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  • Horace Jeffery Hodges
    Frank, I think that your reconstruction of John the Baptizer s life is very hypothetical (as your consistent reliance on the subjunctive indicates) and that
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 30, 2000
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      Frank, I think that your reconstruction of John the
      Baptizer's life is very hypothetical (as your
      consistent reliance on the subjunctive indicates) and
      that the parallel ethical motifs that you see signify
      a common religious and ethical heritage rather than
      literary dependence.

      That's my hunch about your work, but I'm no expert
      here.

      Jeffery Hodges

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    • FMMCCOY
      Paul Schmehl, thank you for the input. Hopefully, you ll be more impressed with another line of reasoning suggesting that John the Baptist had access to the
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 1, 2000
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        Paul Schmehl, thank you for the input. Hopefully, you'll be more
        impressed with another line of reasoning suggesting that John the Baptist
        had access to the works of Philo.
        In the Clementine Homilies (Homily II, Chapts. XXIII-XXIV). it is said
        that "John, a day-baptist" had 30 chief disciples, his favorite being Simon.
        This Simon is earlier described (i.e., in Chapt. XXII) as follows, "This
        Simon is the son of Antonius and Rachel, a Samaritan by race, of the village
        of Gitthae, which is six schoeni distant from the city (of Samaria). He,
        having disciplined himself in Alexandria,.."
        According to this early Christian tradition, then, John's favorite
        disciple had spent some time in Alexandria. Indeed, Egypt appears to have
        been one of his favorite locales to visit--for, in the first cited passage
        from the Clementine Homilies, it is declared that Simon had been in Egypt at
        the time that John was executed!
        There is a way to check the credibility of this early Christian
        tradition. That is, if John's favorite disciple had been spending much of
        his time in Egypt, particularly Alexandria, then one should find evidence of
        Alexandria being a secondary center for the Baptizer's
        movement.
        Significantly, in Acts 18:24-25, :it is declared that Apollos of
        Alexandria, arrived in Ephesus c. 53 CE "knowing only the baptism of John."
        This is evidence that Alexandria was, indeed, a secondary center for the
        Baptizers movement!
        As there is credible evidence that John's favorite disciple liked
        visiting Egypt, particularly Alexandria, John could very well
        have obtained copies of Philo's works from this disciple.

        Frank McCoy
        Maplewood, MN USA















        xx
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Paul Schmehl" <baldeagl@...>
        To: <johannine_literature@egroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 4:08 PM
        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Logos in John and Philo


        > I'm not sure what the point of all this is. Your entire "case" is
        > built upon speculation without any evidence at all. I could just as
        > easily posit that God had a copy of Philo printed and sent Gabrial to
        > deliver it to John.
        >
        > It's interesting supposition, but it doesn't prove anything, nor does
        > it strengthen your argument. Speculation and innuendo do not confirm
        > or refute anything.
        >
        > Paul Schmehl baldeagl@...
        >
        >
        >
        > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@egroups.com
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        >
      • FMMCCOY
        In his post of 28-9-00. Horace Jeffery Hodges suggests that similarities between Philionic thought and Johannine thought are probably due to first century CE
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 2, 2000
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          In his post of 28-9-00. Horace Jeffery Hodges
          suggests that similarities between Philionic thought and Johannine thought
          are probably due to first century CE motifs and traditions known to both
          rather than to
          John having read Philo. Certainly, some of the similarities are due to
          motifs and traditions known to both. However, it could still be that the
          author of John read some of Philo's works. Let me give a case in point..
          In Philo's work, Fuga, we have this sequence regarding the Logos as the
          true High Priest of Leviticus 21:10-14:

          109 His father is God
          110 He is anointed by God with the Spirit as Sophia
          111 He is King of the Cosmos in the sense of being God's Vice-roy
          114 He is betrothed

          In Chapter three of John, we have this sequence regarding what the Baptizer
          says about Jesus:

          29. He is the Bridegroom
          31. He is the King of the Cosmos ("is above all")
          34. He is anointed by God with the Spirit ("for not by measure gives God
          the Spirit")
          35a. His father is God ("The Father loves the Son")

          Note that the sequence in Fuga is in reverse order to that in John:
          .
          109 = 35a
          110 = 34
          111 = 31
          114 = 29

          This is because, I suggest, the author of John was glancing at Fuga in
          reverse order of the narrative flow
          while writing this section of his gospel.
          There is a way to test this hypothesis. That is, if it is true, than
          John 3:35b should directly relate to a passage in Fuga not long before 109.
          Indeed. this is the case! In particular, John 3:35b directly relates to
          Fuga
          101.
          In John 3:35b, John declares, the Father "has given all things into his
          (i.e., the Son's) hand." How can the Son govern the Cosmos through his
          hand? The answer is found in Fuga 101, where Philo declares that, "while
          the Logos is the charioteer of the Powers, He Who talks is seated in the
          chariot, giving directions to the charioteer for the right-wielding of the
          reins of the universe." In his right-wielding of the reins of the universe,
          of course, the Logos uses his hand. Therefore, in Fuga 101 we have a scene
          in which God has given the rulership of all things into the hand of the
          Logos--thereby making it an amazing parallel to John 3:35b: where the Father
          has given the rulership of all things into the hand of the Son...
          That this hypothesis passes this test of its validity in a decisive
          fashion means that it likely is true. Therefore, it is likely that the
          author of John was glancing at Fuga 101-14 in reverse order of its
          narrative flow while writing John
          3:29-35.
          I've had more than my share of recent posts. So, unless someone asks
          me to respond on some point(s), I'm going to sit back and just read what
          others have
          to say on topics relating to Johannine literature for a while.

          Frank McCoy
          Maplewood, MN USA
          ----- Original Message -----
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