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Lamb of God

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  • Brendan Gerard
    Tom and Timothy, thank you both. I think that the audience/reader of the Gospel is meant to understand the lamb of God as the paschal lamb, at least by the
    Message 1 of 7 , Aug 1, 2013
      Tom and Timothy, thank you both.



      I think that the audience/reader of the Gospel is meant to understand
      "the lamb of God" as the paschal lamb, at least by the time we get to
      19,36. The form of the quotation "bone of him will not be broken" allows
      us to hear at the same time a reference to the paschal lamb of Exod 12
      and to the "just" of Psalm 34,21.




      My interest in the apocalyptic lamb is related to what the Baptist, in
      history, might have meant, if his meaning didn't coincide precisely with
      the evangelist's.




      Timothy - isn't the paschal interpretation of the death of Jesus present
      in 1 Corinthians 5,7? Or do you mean that this interpretation developed
      first in the Johannine tradition, even if the written Johannine Gospel
      is later than Paul?

      Revd Brendan Gerard M.A., S.S.L.
      Kapellenweg 5
      D-88145 Opfenbach
      Tel + 49 8385 1625
      Mob. + 49 151 54952896

      <http://thingsinmotion.bgacademic.com>


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Timothy Jenney
      Thank you, Brendan, for such an engaging query. Personally, I see the Fourth Gospel as portraying the crucifixion is the fulfillment of both Tabernacles and
      Message 2 of 7 , Aug 1, 2013
        Thank you, Brendan, for such an engaging query.

        Personally, I see the Fourth Gospel as portraying the crucifixion is the fulfillment of both Tabernacles and Passover.

        Jesus is thus both the ultimate Sukkoth libation (John 7:37-39 cf. Zech. 14:8; John 19:34) and Pascal sacrifice (John 1:29, 36; 19:36; Exod.12). The Fourth Gospel's ten uses of Gk. pάσχα is the highest in the NT, both in count (10) and frequency (.48/1000 words), an indication of its importance in the book's theology. It is tempting to see John 12:38 (q. Isa. 53:1) as an introduction to Isa. 53:3. From a literary point of view, it is difficult to see JB's saying as anything less than the set up for this theme.

        Historically, it is really hard to identify the source of John the Baptist's theology, other than his own proclamation of Isa. 40:3 [also a favorite of the Qumran community]. He certainly seems cognizant of a variety of eschatologies known by the Jews, but rejects them all (John 1:19-28). [One must remember here that the Fourth Gospel also speaks to the followers of John, who persisted well after his death in places far beyond Judea (Acts 19). This sort of merging the horizons of the original hearers and the original readers is typical of the Gospel.]

        I did run a quick search in all relevant ancient texts for "lamb" and "passover," as I did not have the time to search for all the Hebrew and Greek words separately. Here is a list of the references in the Pseudepigrapha, which is the richest source of hits for your purposes: Jub 49:1–3, 6, 10, 14–15, 18–19, 21–22; Enoch 89:45; 90:38; Gad 1:7; Joseph 19:8, 11; Benj 3:8; Ahikar 8:33; SyrAAh 8:36; ArmAh 2:52; 8:23. Let me direct your attention to Joseph 19:8, 11 and Benj. 3:8 for further consideration.

        However, it is very difficult to know, in this literature, what sections were emended by Christians in the the of the various Gospels and what was original. The dating is just very difficult. For my part, I did not find these texts compelling.

        I hope this helps—and press on!

        Tim

        Timothy P. Jenney, Ph.D. UMich, 1993
        Adjunct, Regent university, School of Divinity
        Host, Lighting the Lamp, Accordance Bible Software







        On Aug 1, 2013, at 4:03 AM, "Brendan Gerard" <bg@...> wrote:

        > Tom and Timothy, thank you both.
        >
        > I think that the audience/reader of the Gospel is meant to understand
        > "the lamb of God" as the paschal lamb, at least by the time we get to
        > 19,36. The form of the quotation "bone of him will not be broken" allows
        > us to hear at the same time a reference to the paschal lamb of Exod 12
        > and to the "just" of Psalm 34,21.
        >
        > My interest in the apocalyptic lamb is related to what the Baptist, in
        > history, might have meant, if his meaning didn't coincide precisely with
        > the evangelist's.
        >
        > Timothy - isn't the paschal interpretation of the death of Jesus present
        > in 1 Corinthians 5,7? Or do you mean that this interpretation developed
        > first in the Johannine tradition, even if the written Johannine Gospel
        > is later than Paul?
        >
        > Revd Brendan Gerard M.A., S.S.L.
        > Kapellenweg 5
        > D-88145 Opfenbach
        > Tel + 49 8385 1625
        > Mob. + 49 151 54952896
        >
        > <http://thingsinmotion.bgacademic.com>
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • DAVID RITSEMA
        Here is what I said in my dissertation regarding the title Lamb of God in Gospel of John: The Lamb of God (John 1:29, 36) This title is peculiar to John
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 1, 2013
          Here is what I said in my dissertation regarding the title "Lamb of God" in Gospel of John:

          "The Lamb of God" (John 1:29, 36)
          This title is peculiar to John (cf. Acts 8:32; Isa 53:7; 1 Pet 1:18-19).76 In the LXX  μνόρ was never used for the paschal lamb 77 and throughout Revelation a different word is used ( πνίον) which Dodd described as a synonym for messiah (Rev 22:1 3).78 In 1 Enoch, a ―great horned sheep‖ can be interpreted as either Judas Maccabeus or the messiah (cf. T. 12 Patr. 19:8).79 After surveying four interpretations, Dodd concludes that ―Lamb of God‖ in John is a synonym for messiah and ―King of Israel.‖80 The Lamb of God is the ―horned lamb‖ of the Jewish apocalypse.81 Dodd shows how John connects Lamb of God with the Jewish messiah, and also in the apocalyptic tradition which assumes a heavenly messianic figure. In Revelation 5 the Lamb is the recipient of worship but also the Jewish messiah (hence a divine messiah).
        • Timothy Jenney
          [Oops, forgot your query about 1 Cor. 5:6] Yes, I do see it present there in Paul, so we know it was out there, at least as a minority position, as early as
          Message 4 of 7 , Aug 1, 2013
            [Oops, forgot your query about 1 Cor. 5:6]

            Yes, I do see it present there in Paul, so we know it was "out there," at least as a minority position, as early as the 50s. However, I see no hint of it in any of the Synoptics, even Mark (which i consider very early). Yet it appears as a very complete theology in the Fourth Gospel (I follow the majority dating here, no earlier than the 90s). I have no idea whether the Gospel followed Paul, Paul followed the theology that later became incorporated into the Gospel, or both arrived at the same conclusion independently.

            I do find it intriguing that Corinth and Ephesus are in such close proximity�and that the spheres of influence of John and Paul overlapped so much. In my opinion, too little research has been done on the connections between Johanine and Pauline theology, perhaps too much between Pauline and Lukan.

            Blessings,
            Tim

            Timothy P. Jenney, Ph.D. UMich, 1993
            Adjunct, Regent university, School of Divinity
            Host, Lighting the Lamp, Accordance Bible Software

            On Aug 1, 2013, at 4:03 AM, "Brendan Gerard" <bg@...> wrote:

            > Tom and Timothy, thank you both.
            >
            > I think that the audience/reader of the Gospel is meant to understand
            > "the lamb of God" as the paschal lamb, at least by the time we get to
            > 19,36. The form of the quotation "bone of him will not be broken" allows
            > us to hear at the same time a reference to the paschal lamb of Exod 12
            > and to the "just" of Psalm 34,21.
            >
            > My interest in the apocalyptic lamb is related to what the Baptist, in
            > history, might have meant, if his meaning didn't coincide precisely with
            > the evangelist's.
            >
            > Timothy - isn't the paschal interpretation of the death of Jesus present
            > in 1 Corinthians 5,7? Or do you mean that this interpretation developed
            > first in the Johannine tradition, even if the written Johannine Gospel
            > is later than Paul?
            >
            > Revd Brendan Gerard M.A., S.S.L.
            > Kapellenweg 5
            > D-88145 Opfenbach
            > Tel + 49 8385 1625
            > Mob. + 49 151 54952896
            >
            > <http://thingsinmotion.bgacademic.com>
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Brendan Gerard
            Tim - might there not be a hint of the paschal view of Jesus death in the Synoptic chronology of the Supper and Passion? If (as I believe) the Johannine
            Message 5 of 7 , Aug 1, 2013
              Tim - might there not be a hint of the "paschal" view of Jesus' death in
              the Synoptic chronology of the Supper and Passion? If (as I believe) the
              Johannine chronology is historically correct and the Synoptic one an
              adaptation, it would seem so.



              There is also a reference to "the blood of a lamb" (Christ) in 1 Peter
              1,19, which suggests the paschal lamb.



              Your point about Pauline/Johannine overlap, especially with reference to
              Ephesus, is an excellent one. Dodd, in "Historical Tradition," suggests
              that the Sitz-im-Leben of the Johannine Baptist material belongs in an
              Ephesus marked by what we read in Acts 19,1-4.
              Thanks again!

              Brendan




              ---

              Revd Brendan Gerard M.A., S.S.L.
              Kapellenweg 5
              D-88145 Opfenbach
              Tel + 49 8385 1625
              Mob. + 49 151 54952896

              <http://thingsinmotion.bgacademic.com>


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Timothy Jenney
              Hi, Brendan! Anything is possible, and one s interpretation of events is almost entirely dependent upon one s dating of the various books. As you mentioned
              Message 6 of 7 , Aug 1, 2013
                Hi, Brendan!

                Anything is possible, and one's interpretation of events is almost entirely dependent upon one's dating of the various books. As you mentioned earlier, this issue is complicated by the fact that traditions are usually present long before being committed to writing.

                I see the Synoptics as the more "historical" record, John's as the "theological adaptation." In the former, Jesus celebrates Passover with his disciples. In the latter, the meal is just that, a meal. The "real" Passover can't happen until the "real" Lamb is dead�which is just the way the Fourth Gospel seems to enjoy making its theological points. Part of the reason I agree that this Gospel is the last one written is that I see it critiquing (balancing, correcting, etc) the Synoptic tradition.

                Blessings,
                Tim

                Timothy P. Jenney, Ph.D. UMich, 1993
                Adjunct, Regent University, School of Divinity
                Host, Lighting the Lamp, Accordance Bible Software







                On Aug 1, 2013, at 11:42 AM, Brendan Gerard <bg@...> wrote:

                > Tim - might there not be a hint of the "paschal" view of Jesus' death in
                > the Synoptic chronology of the Supper and Passion? If (as I believe) the
                > Johannine chronology is historically correct and the Synoptic one an
                > adaptation, it would seem so.
                >
                > There is also a reference to "the blood of a lamb" (Christ) in 1 Peter
                > 1,19, which suggests the paschal lamb.
                >
                > Your point about Pauline/Johannine overlap, especially with reference to
                > Ephesus, is an excellent one. Dodd, in "Historical Tradition," suggests
                > that the Sitz-im-Leben of the Johannine Baptist material belongs in an
                > Ephesus marked by what we read in Acts 19,1-4.
                > Thanks again!
                >
                > Brendan
                >
                > ---
                >
                > Revd Brendan Gerard M.A., S.S.L.
                > Kapellenweg 5
                > D-88145 Opfenbach
                > Tel + 49 8385 1625
                > Mob. + 49 151 54952896
                >
                > <http://thingsinmotion.bgacademic.com>
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Brendan Gerard
                Thanks again to all. Matthew - I would agree that in John s Gospel the Baptist is an *intermediary* of the Father s revelation. In John, it s the Baptist who
                Message 7 of 7 , Aug 2, 2013
                  Thanks again to all.



                  Matthew - I would agree that in John's Gospel the Baptist is an
                  *intermediary* of the Father's revelation. In John, it's the Baptist who
                  sees the Spirit descending, and to whom God has spoken, so that in this
                  episode we don't hear God's voice directly (as in the synoptics) but
                  through the testimony of the Baptist.



                  Brendan

                  --
                  Revd Brendan Gerard M.A., S.S.L.
                  Kapellenweg 5
                  D-88145 Opfenbach
                  Tel + 49 8385 1625
                  Mob. + 49 151 54952896

                  <http://thingsinmotion.bgacademic.com>


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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