Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [John_Lit] Re: Echoes between Jn 1-2 and Passion Narrative?

Expand Messages
  • steve levine
    I see the connection between Cana and Cross - Mary asked to see water turned to wine and she later saw blood turned to water (it is not yet my time).
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 27, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      I see the connection between Cana and Cross - Mary asked to see water turned to wine and she later saw blood turned to water (it is not yet my time).


      ________________________________
      From: Matthew Miller <logosmadeflesh@...>
      To: "johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com" <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 7:05 AM
      Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Echoes between Jn 1-2 and Passion Narrative?


       
      I too have been looking into the links between the Passion Narrative and
      John 1-2 and I'm surprised at how little I've found. Mark Stibb makes a
      few passing connections in Reading John and in the Genius of John, Peter
      Ellis suggests more. I'd be grateful for any additional resources that you
      find.

      The prominent and unique appearances of Jesus' mother at the wedding of
      Cana and the crucifixion stand as the clearest indicator that the author
      intended a link between them. But other less apparent parallels only
      strengthen such a proposal as you make mention.

      I think you're on the right track but let me turn your attention if I may
      to a slightly different set of connections. I believe more specifically
      that John 20:1-31 echoes John 1:35-51. Both accounts relate the story of
      the disciples finding Jesus. Note the following progression and parallels.

      John sees Jesus and tells his two disciples. (1:35-36)
      Mary can't find Jesus and tells two disciples. (20:1-3)

      Two disciples respond by following Jesus (1:37 <x-apple-data-detectors://2>)
      Two disciples respond by running to look for Jesus. (20:3-4)

      Jesus *Turns* to see Disciples (1:38 <x-apple-data-detectors://4>)
      She (Mary) *Turns* to see Jesus (20:14 <x-apple-data-detectors://5>)

      Jesus asks Disciples, "What do you seek?"� (1:38<x-apple-data-detectors://6>
      )
      Jesus asks Mary, "Whom are you seeking?" �(1:15 <x-apple-data-detectors://7>
      )

      Disciples addresses Jesus: "Rabbi (Which translated means Teacher)"
      (1:38<x-apple-data-detectors://8>
      )
      Mary addresses Jesus: "Rabboni (Which means, Teacher)"�
      (1:16<x-apple-data-detectors://9>
      )

      Disciples ask Jesus,"Where are you (Jesus) staying?"
      (1:38<x-apple-data-detectors://10>
      )
      Mary says to Jesus, "Tell me where you have laid Him.
      (1:15<x-apple-data-detectors://11>
      )

      Andrew tells Peter, "We have found the Messiah"
      (1:41<x-apple-data-detectors://12>
      )
      Mary tells Disciples, "I have seen the Lord" (20:18<x-apple-data-detectors://13>
      )

      Philip tells Nathaniel : "We have found Him..."
      (1:45<x-apple-data-detectors://14>
      )
      Disciples tells Thomas: "We have seen the Lord"
      (20:25<x-apple-data-detectors://15>
      )

      Nathaniel expresses doubt, "Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?"
      (1:46 <x-apple-data-detectors://16>)
      Thomas expresses doubt, "Unless I see... I will not believe"
      (20:25<x-apple-data-detectors://17>
      )

      Jesus grants evidence: "I saw you under the fig tree" (1:47-48)
      Jesus grants evidence: "Put your finger here...
      (20:27<x-apple-data-detectors://18>
      )

      Nathaniel declares his belief in Jesus,"Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you
      are
      the King of Israel." (1:49 <x-apple-data-detectors://19>)
      Thomas declares his belief in Jesus,"My Lord and my God!"
      (20:28<x-apple-data-detectors://20>
      )

      Jesus: "You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You
      shall
      see greater things than these." (1:50 <x-apple-data-detectors://21>)
      Jesus: "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who
      have
      not seen and yet have believed." (20:29 <x-apple-data-detectors://22>)

      Though there are a few unique, near verbatim agreements, overall it's the
      similarities of character and plot confined within such a short space which
      makes this connection most compelling.

      I've found such connections repeated throughout John. It's not just the
      Passion Narrative and John 1-2. I believe John does indeed posses an
      overarching unity. I offer the following structure for consideration.

      A) Seeing and Believing (1:35-51)
      B) Wedding of Cana (2:1-12)
      C) Foreshadowing and Meeting 2:13-3:21 <x-apple-data-detectors://24>)
      D) John the Baptist and a Woman (3:23-4:54 <x-apple-data-detectors://25>)
      E) Voice of Life (5:1-54)
      G) Call to Discipleship (6:1-79)
      E') Voice of Life (7:1-10:41 <x-apple-data-detectors://26>)
      D') Two Women and Caiaphas (11:1-57)
      C') Foreshadowing and Meeting (12:1-50)
      B') Crucifixion (19:25-30)
      A') Seeing and Believing (20:1-29)

      Epilogue
      G') Call to Discipleship (21:1-25)

      God Bless
      Matthew Miller
      Canby Bible College
      Logosmadeflesh@...<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/post?postID=uYJNR7tsKaqi57OGJUpVQlaAFDbacZISWBS4GLoN8leyt7Ov7r5xaFuWoP3TTsMoCJLfJ7GbYvroCK99GomoYsHiSw>

      Matt

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jack Kilmon
      That s interesting but I have a problem with mixing what may be a legend and what seems to be historical. The description of the crucifixion in the gospels is
      Message 2 of 5 , Nov 28, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        That's interesting but I have a problem with mixing what may be a legend and
        what seems to be historical. The description of the crucifixion in the
        gospels is of a severe concussive beating with a Roman flagrum which almost
        certainly would cause a hemothorax which in 6 hours (a very short time to
        die by crucifixion standards) would settle as serum and RBCs. A puncture of
        the chest wall by a Lancea would cause blood and "water" to issue. Its one
        of the few things that makes non-supernatural sense, ergo historical.

        Please sign your posts, Steve.

        Jack Kilmon

        -----Original Message-----
        From: steve levine
        Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 3:15 PM
        To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Echoes between Jn 1-2 and Passion Narrative?

        I see the connection between Cana and Cross - Mary asked to see water turned
        to wine and she later saw blood turned to water (it is not yet my time).


        ________________________________
        From: Matthew Miller <logosmadeflesh@...>
        To: "johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com"
        <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 7:05 AM
        Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Echoes between Jn 1-2 and Passion Narrative?



        I too have been looking into the links between the Passion Narrative and
        John 1-2 and I'm surprised at how little I've found. Mark Stibb makes a
        few passing connections in Reading John and in the Genius of John, Peter
        Ellis suggests more. I'd be grateful for any additional resources that you
        find.

        The prominent and unique appearances of Jesus' mother at the wedding of
        Cana and the crucifixion stand as the clearest indicator that the author
        intended a link between them. But other less apparent parallels only
        strengthen such a proposal as you make mention.

        I think you're on the right track but let me turn your attention if I may
        to a slightly different set of connections. I believe more specifically
        that John 20:1-31 echoes John 1:35-51. Both accounts relate the story of
        the disciples finding Jesus. Note the following progression and parallels.

        John sees Jesus and tells his two disciples. (1:35-36)
        Mary can't find Jesus and tells two disciples. (20:1-3)

        Two disciples respond by following Jesus (1:37 <x-apple-data-detectors://2>)
        Two disciples respond by running to look for Jesus. (20:3-4)

        Jesus *Turns* to see Disciples (1:38 <x-apple-data-detectors://4>)
        She (Mary) *Turns* to see Jesus (20:14 <x-apple-data-detectors://5>)

        Jesus asks Disciples, "What do you seek?"� (1:38<x-apple-data-detectors://6>
        )
        Jesus asks Mary, "Whom are you seeking?" �(1:15 <x-apple-data-detectors://7>
        )

        Disciples addresses Jesus: "Rabbi (Which translated means Teacher)"
        (1:38<x-apple-data-detectors://8>
        )
        Mary addresses Jesus: "Rabboni (Which means, Teacher)"�
        (1:16<x-apple-data-detectors://9>
        )

        Disciples ask Jesus,"Where are you (Jesus) staying?"
        (1:38<x-apple-data-detectors://10>
        )
        Mary says to Jesus, "Tell me where you have laid Him.
        (1:15<x-apple-data-detectors://11>
        )

        Andrew tells Peter, "We have found the Messiah"
        (1:41<x-apple-data-detectors://12>
        )
        Mary tells Disciples, "I have seen the Lord"
        (20:18<x-apple-data-detectors://13>
        )

        Philip tells Nathaniel : "We have found Him..."
        (1:45<x-apple-data-detectors://14>
        )
        Disciples tells Thomas: "We have seen the Lord"
        (20:25<x-apple-data-detectors://15>
        )

        Nathaniel expresses doubt, "Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?"
        (1:46 <x-apple-data-detectors://16>)
        Thomas expresses doubt, "Unless I see... I will not believe"
        (20:25<x-apple-data-detectors://17>
        )

        Jesus grants evidence: "I saw you under the fig tree" (1:47-48)
        Jesus grants evidence: "Put your finger here...
        (20:27<x-apple-data-detectors://18>
        )

        Nathaniel declares his belief in Jesus,"Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you
        are
        the King of Israel." (1:49 <x-apple-data-detectors://19>)
        Thomas declares his belief in Jesus,"My Lord and my God!"
        (20:28<x-apple-data-detectors://20>
        )

        Jesus: "You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You
        shall
        see greater things than these." (1:50 <x-apple-data-detectors://21>)
        Jesus: "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who
        have
        not seen and yet have believed." (20:29 <x-apple-data-detectors://22>)

        Though there are a few unique, near verbatim agreements, overall it's the
        similarities of character and plot confined within such a short space which
        makes this connection most compelling.

        I've found such connections repeated throughout John. It's not just the
        Passion Narrative and John 1-2. I believe John does indeed posses an
        overarching unity. I offer the following structure for consideration.

        A) Seeing and Believing (1:35-51)
        B) Wedding of Cana (2:1-12)
        C) Foreshadowing and Meeting 2:13-3:21 <x-apple-data-detectors://24>)
        D) John the Baptist and a Woman (3:23-4:54 <x-apple-data-detectors://25>)
        E) Voice of Life (5:1-54)
        G) Call to Discipleship (6:1-79)
        E') Voice of Life (7:1-10:41 <x-apple-data-detectors://26>)
        D') Two Women and Caiaphas (11:1-57)
        C') Foreshadowing and Meeting (12:1-50)
        B') Crucifixion (19:25-30)
        A') Seeing and Believing (20:1-29)

        Epilogue
        G') Call to Discipleship (21:1-25)

        God Bless
        Matthew Miller
        Canby Bible College
        Logosmadeflesh@...<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/post?postID=uYJNR7tsKaqi57OGJUpVQlaAFDbacZISWBS4GLoN8leyt7Ov7r5xaFuWoP3TTsMoCJLfJ7GbYvroCK99GomoYsHiSw>

        Matt

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------

        SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
        MESSAGE ARCHIVE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
        GROUP HOMEPAGE: http://johannine.org/YGroup_John_Lit.htmYahoo! Groups Links
      • Jgibson
        ... Please note that you are reading things into the text _that are not there_ to get your desired parallel. Nowhere in the Cana story does Mary ask to see
        Message 3 of 5 , Nov 28, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          > From: steve levine
          >
          > I see the connection between Cana and Cross - Mary asked to see water
          > turned to wine and she later saw blood turned to water (it is not yet
          > my time). ________________________________


          Please note that you are reading things into the text _that are not
          there_ to get your desired parallel.

          Nowhere in the Cana story does Mary ask to see /anything/, let alone
          water turned into wine, nor does John say that at the crucifixion Jesus
          blood turned to water. What comes forth from Jesus' side according to
          John is blood AND water. Moreover, is there any noted declaration of
          equivalence in GJohn between water/wine and blood as there is in the
          Synoptics?

          Before you make any more such claims as you made above, I suggest that
          you actually pay closer attention to what the text of John actually says
          than you apparently now do.

          Jeffrey

          --
          ---
          Jeffrey B. Gibson D.Phil. Oxon.
          1500 W. Pratt Blvd
          Chicago, Il.
          jgibson000@...



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.