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Echoes between Jn 1-2 and Passion Narrative?

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  • Keith Yoder
    Some features I ve noticed in common between Jn 1-2 and the PN in 18-19: a. 1:37-39 i. Two disciples follow Jesus: 18:15 ἠκολούθει δὲ τῷ
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 25, 2011
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      Some features I've noticed in common between Jn 1-2 and the PN in 18-19:

      a. 1:37-39
      i. Two disciples follow Jesus:
      18:15 ἠκολούθει δὲ τῷ Ἰησοῦ Σίμων Πέτρος καὶ ἄλλος μαθητής
      1:37 οἱ δύο μαθηταὶ ... ἠκολούθησαν τῷ Ἰησοῦ
      ii. One disciple named, the other un-named
      iii. Named disciple = Andrew the brother of Simon Peter (1:39)
      = Simon Peter himself (18:15)
      iv. Jesus says "What do you seek?" (1:38 τί ζητεῖτε)
      Jesus says "Whom do you seek? (18:4 τίνα ζητεῖτε) - different context
      from the two disciples
      v. "it was about the nth hour" (1:39 ὥρα ἦν ὡς δεκάτη ~ 19:14 ὥρα ἦν ὡς
      ἕκτη)

      b. 1:19-21
      i. Identity of Jesus' associate is questioned and denied three times:
      Jesus' Forerunner, John (the Baptist) (1:19-21)
      Are you the Christ/Elijah/the Prophet?
      Jesus' Follower, Simon Peter (18:17-18, 25-27)
      Are you His disciple/His disciple/in the garden with Him?
      ii. 1st and 2nd time denied with οὐκ εἰμί (1:20-21 = 18:17,25)
      iii. John "did not deny" (1:18 οὐκ ἠρνήσατο)
      Simon Peter "denied" twice (18:25,27 ἠρνήσατο)

      c. 2:1-12
      i. Mother (μήτηρ) of Jesus plays a key role in one paragraph
      "mother" (his/of Jesus) mentioned 4 times (2:1, 3, 5, 12)
      "mother (his/of Jesus) mentioned 5 times (19:25, 25, 26, 26, 27)
      She is only mentioned elsewhere in John at 6:42, "is this not Jesus...we
      know his father and his mother...?"


      Fortna maintained that John's Passion source was originally a separate
      document from his Signs source. These echoes above make me wonder if
      either there was cross-pollination at some point between the two sources
      (if we follow Fortna), or if an editor deliberately reworked one or the
      other to create these textual harmonics. If we suppose that the
      tradition of Peter denying Jesus three times existed prior to the
      original form of John's passion narrative, then that might indicate a
      priority in time for the Passion narrative, so the echoes are actually
      in Jn 1-2.

      Any comments, or pointers to some helpful discussion already published?


      Thanks,
      Keith Yoder
    • Matthew Miller
      I too have been looking into the links between the Passion Narrative and John 1-2 and I m surprised at how little I ve found. Mark Stibb makes a few passing
      Message 2 of 5 , Nov 26, 2011
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        I too have been looking into the links between the Passion Narrative and
        John 1-2 and I'm surprised at how little I've found. Mark Stibb makes a
        few passing connections in Reading John and in the Genius of John, Peter
        Ellis suggests more. I'd be grateful for any additional resources that you
        find.

        The prominent and unique appearances of Jesus' mother at the wedding of
        Cana and the crucifixion stand as the clearest indicator that the author
        intended a link between them. But other less apparent parallels only
        strengthen such a proposal as you make mention.

        I think you're on the right track but let me turn your attention if I may
        to a slightly different set of connections. I believe more specifically
        that John 20:1-31 echoes John 1:35-51. Both accounts relate the story of
        the disciples finding Jesus. Note the following progression and parallels.


        John sees Jesus and tells his two disciples. (1:35-36)
        Mary can't find Jesus and tells two disciples. (20:1-3)

        Two disciples respond by following Jesus (1:37 <x-apple-data-detectors://2>)
        Two disciples respond by running to look for Jesus. (20:3-4)

        Jesus *Turns* to see Disciples (1:38 <x-apple-data-detectors://4>)
        She (Mary) *Turns* to see Jesus (20:14 <x-apple-data-detectors://5>)

        Jesus asks Disciples, "What do you seek?" (1:38<x-apple-data-detectors://6>
        )
        Jesus asks Mary, "Whom are you seeking?" (1:15 <x-apple-data-detectors://7>
        )

        Disciples addresses Jesus: "Rabbi (Which translated means Teacher)"
        (1:38<x-apple-data-detectors://8>
        )
        Mary addresses Jesus: "Rabboni (Which means, Teacher)"
        (1:16<x-apple-data-detectors://9>
        )

        Disciples ask Jesus,"Where are you (Jesus) staying?"
        (1:38<x-apple-data-detectors://10>
        )
        Mary says to Jesus, "Tell me where you have laid Him.
        (1:15<x-apple-data-detectors://11>
        )

        Andrew tells Peter, "We have found the Messiah"
        (1:41<x-apple-data-detectors://12>
        )
        Mary tells Disciples, "I have seen the Lord" (20:18<x-apple-data-detectors://13>
        )

        Philip tells Nathaniel : "We have found Him..."
        (1:45<x-apple-data-detectors://14>
        )
        Disciples tells Thomas: "We have seen the Lord"
        (20:25<x-apple-data-detectors://15>
        )

        Nathaniel expresses doubt, "Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?"
        (1:46 <x-apple-data-detectors://16>)
        Thomas expresses doubt, "Unless I see... I will not believe"
        (20:25<x-apple-data-detectors://17>
        )

        Jesus grants evidence: "I saw you under the fig tree" (1:47-48)
        Jesus grants evidence: "Put your finger here...
        (20:27<x-apple-data-detectors://18>
        )

        Nathaniel declares his belief in Jesus,"Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you
        are
        the King of Israel." (1:49 <x-apple-data-detectors://19>)
        Thomas declares his belief in Jesus,"My Lord and my God!"
        (20:28<x-apple-data-detectors://20>
        )

        Jesus: "You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You
        shall
        see greater things than these." (1:50 <x-apple-data-detectors://21>)
        Jesus: "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who
        have
        not seen and yet have believed." (20:29 <x-apple-data-detectors://22>)

        Though there are a few unique, near verbatim agreements, overall it's the
        similarities of character and plot confined within such a short space which
        makes this connection most compelling.

        I've found such connections repeated throughout John. It's not just the
        Passion Narrative and John 1-2. I believe John does indeed posses an
        overarching unity. I offer the following structure for consideration.

        A) Seeing and Believing (1:35-51)
        B) Wedding of Cana (2:1-12)
        C) Foreshadowing and Meeting 2:13-3:21 <x-apple-data-detectors://24>)
        D) John the Baptist and a Woman (3:23-4:54 <x-apple-data-detectors://25>)
        E) Voice of Life (5:1-54)
        G) Call to Discipleship (6:1-79)
        E') Voice of Life (7:1-10:41 <x-apple-data-detectors://26>)
        D') Two Women and Caiaphas (11:1-57)
        C') Foreshadowing and Meeting (12:1-50)
        B') Crucifixion (19:25-30)
        A') Seeing and Believing (20:1-29)

        Epilogue
        G') Call to Discipleship (21:1-25)

        God Bless
        Matthew Miller
        Canby Bible College
        Logosmadeflesh@...<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/post?postID=uYJNR7tsKaqi57OGJUpVQlaAFDbacZISWBS4GLoN8leyt7Ov7r5xaFuWoP3TTsMoCJLfJ7GbYvroCK99GomoYsHiSw>

        Matt


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • steve levine
        I see the connection between Cana and Cross - Mary asked to see water turned to wine and she later saw blood turned to water (it is not yet my time).
        Message 3 of 5 , Nov 27, 2011
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          I see the connection between Cana and Cross - Mary asked to see water turned to wine and she later saw blood turned to water (it is not yet my time).


          ________________________________
          From: Matthew Miller <logosmadeflesh@...>
          To: "johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com" <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 7:05 AM
          Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Echoes between Jn 1-2 and Passion Narrative?


           
          I too have been looking into the links between the Passion Narrative and
          John 1-2 and I'm surprised at how little I've found. Mark Stibb makes a
          few passing connections in Reading John and in the Genius of John, Peter
          Ellis suggests more. I'd be grateful for any additional resources that you
          find.

          The prominent and unique appearances of Jesus' mother at the wedding of
          Cana and the crucifixion stand as the clearest indicator that the author
          intended a link between them. But other less apparent parallels only
          strengthen such a proposal as you make mention.

          I think you're on the right track but let me turn your attention if I may
          to a slightly different set of connections. I believe more specifically
          that John 20:1-31 echoes John 1:35-51. Both accounts relate the story of
          the disciples finding Jesus. Note the following progression and parallels.

          John sees Jesus and tells his two disciples. (1:35-36)
          Mary can't find Jesus and tells two disciples. (20:1-3)

          Two disciples respond by following Jesus (1:37 <x-apple-data-detectors://2>)
          Two disciples respond by running to look for Jesus. (20:3-4)

          Jesus *Turns* to see Disciples (1:38 <x-apple-data-detectors://4>)
          She (Mary) *Turns* to see Jesus (20:14 <x-apple-data-detectors://5>)

          Jesus asks Disciples, "What do you seek?"� (1:38<x-apple-data-detectors://6>
          )
          Jesus asks Mary, "Whom are you seeking?" �(1:15 <x-apple-data-detectors://7>
          )

          Disciples addresses Jesus: "Rabbi (Which translated means Teacher)"
          (1:38<x-apple-data-detectors://8>
          )
          Mary addresses Jesus: "Rabboni (Which means, Teacher)"�
          (1:16<x-apple-data-detectors://9>
          )

          Disciples ask Jesus,"Where are you (Jesus) staying?"
          (1:38<x-apple-data-detectors://10>
          )
          Mary says to Jesus, "Tell me where you have laid Him.
          (1:15<x-apple-data-detectors://11>
          )

          Andrew tells Peter, "We have found the Messiah"
          (1:41<x-apple-data-detectors://12>
          )
          Mary tells Disciples, "I have seen the Lord" (20:18<x-apple-data-detectors://13>
          )

          Philip tells Nathaniel : "We have found Him..."
          (1:45<x-apple-data-detectors://14>
          )
          Disciples tells Thomas: "We have seen the Lord"
          (20:25<x-apple-data-detectors://15>
          )

          Nathaniel expresses doubt, "Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?"
          (1:46 <x-apple-data-detectors://16>)
          Thomas expresses doubt, "Unless I see... I will not believe"
          (20:25<x-apple-data-detectors://17>
          )

          Jesus grants evidence: "I saw you under the fig tree" (1:47-48)
          Jesus grants evidence: "Put your finger here...
          (20:27<x-apple-data-detectors://18>
          )

          Nathaniel declares his belief in Jesus,"Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you
          are
          the King of Israel." (1:49 <x-apple-data-detectors://19>)
          Thomas declares his belief in Jesus,"My Lord and my God!"
          (20:28<x-apple-data-detectors://20>
          )

          Jesus: "You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You
          shall
          see greater things than these." (1:50 <x-apple-data-detectors://21>)
          Jesus: "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who
          have
          not seen and yet have believed." (20:29 <x-apple-data-detectors://22>)

          Though there are a few unique, near verbatim agreements, overall it's the
          similarities of character and plot confined within such a short space which
          makes this connection most compelling.

          I've found such connections repeated throughout John. It's not just the
          Passion Narrative and John 1-2. I believe John does indeed posses an
          overarching unity. I offer the following structure for consideration.

          A) Seeing and Believing (1:35-51)
          B) Wedding of Cana (2:1-12)
          C) Foreshadowing and Meeting 2:13-3:21 <x-apple-data-detectors://24>)
          D) John the Baptist and a Woman (3:23-4:54 <x-apple-data-detectors://25>)
          E) Voice of Life (5:1-54)
          G) Call to Discipleship (6:1-79)
          E') Voice of Life (7:1-10:41 <x-apple-data-detectors://26>)
          D') Two Women and Caiaphas (11:1-57)
          C') Foreshadowing and Meeting (12:1-50)
          B') Crucifixion (19:25-30)
          A') Seeing and Believing (20:1-29)

          Epilogue
          G') Call to Discipleship (21:1-25)

          God Bless
          Matthew Miller
          Canby Bible College
          Logosmadeflesh@...<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/post?postID=uYJNR7tsKaqi57OGJUpVQlaAFDbacZISWBS4GLoN8leyt7Ov7r5xaFuWoP3TTsMoCJLfJ7GbYvroCK99GomoYsHiSw>

          Matt

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jack Kilmon
          That s interesting but I have a problem with mixing what may be a legend and what seems to be historical. The description of the crucifixion in the gospels is
          Message 4 of 5 , Nov 28, 2011
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            That's interesting but I have a problem with mixing what may be a legend and
            what seems to be historical. The description of the crucifixion in the
            gospels is of a severe concussive beating with a Roman flagrum which almost
            certainly would cause a hemothorax which in 6 hours (a very short time to
            die by crucifixion standards) would settle as serum and RBCs. A puncture of
            the chest wall by a Lancea would cause blood and "water" to issue. Its one
            of the few things that makes non-supernatural sense, ergo historical.

            Please sign your posts, Steve.

            Jack Kilmon

            -----Original Message-----
            From: steve levine
            Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 3:15 PM
            To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Echoes between Jn 1-2 and Passion Narrative?

            I see the connection between Cana and Cross - Mary asked to see water turned
            to wine and she later saw blood turned to water (it is not yet my time).


            ________________________________
            From: Matthew Miller <logosmadeflesh@...>
            To: "johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com"
            <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 7:05 AM
            Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Echoes between Jn 1-2 and Passion Narrative?



            I too have been looking into the links between the Passion Narrative and
            John 1-2 and I'm surprised at how little I've found. Mark Stibb makes a
            few passing connections in Reading John and in the Genius of John, Peter
            Ellis suggests more. I'd be grateful for any additional resources that you
            find.

            The prominent and unique appearances of Jesus' mother at the wedding of
            Cana and the crucifixion stand as the clearest indicator that the author
            intended a link between them. But other less apparent parallels only
            strengthen such a proposal as you make mention.

            I think you're on the right track but let me turn your attention if I may
            to a slightly different set of connections. I believe more specifically
            that John 20:1-31 echoes John 1:35-51. Both accounts relate the story of
            the disciples finding Jesus. Note the following progression and parallels.

            John sees Jesus and tells his two disciples. (1:35-36)
            Mary can't find Jesus and tells two disciples. (20:1-3)

            Two disciples respond by following Jesus (1:37 <x-apple-data-detectors://2>)
            Two disciples respond by running to look for Jesus. (20:3-4)

            Jesus *Turns* to see Disciples (1:38 <x-apple-data-detectors://4>)
            She (Mary) *Turns* to see Jesus (20:14 <x-apple-data-detectors://5>)

            Jesus asks Disciples, "What do you seek?"� (1:38<x-apple-data-detectors://6>
            )
            Jesus asks Mary, "Whom are you seeking?" �(1:15 <x-apple-data-detectors://7>
            )

            Disciples addresses Jesus: "Rabbi (Which translated means Teacher)"
            (1:38<x-apple-data-detectors://8>
            )
            Mary addresses Jesus: "Rabboni (Which means, Teacher)"�
            (1:16<x-apple-data-detectors://9>
            )

            Disciples ask Jesus,"Where are you (Jesus) staying?"
            (1:38<x-apple-data-detectors://10>
            )
            Mary says to Jesus, "Tell me where you have laid Him.
            (1:15<x-apple-data-detectors://11>
            )

            Andrew tells Peter, "We have found the Messiah"
            (1:41<x-apple-data-detectors://12>
            )
            Mary tells Disciples, "I have seen the Lord"
            (20:18<x-apple-data-detectors://13>
            )

            Philip tells Nathaniel : "We have found Him..."
            (1:45<x-apple-data-detectors://14>
            )
            Disciples tells Thomas: "We have seen the Lord"
            (20:25<x-apple-data-detectors://15>
            )

            Nathaniel expresses doubt, "Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?"
            (1:46 <x-apple-data-detectors://16>)
            Thomas expresses doubt, "Unless I see... I will not believe"
            (20:25<x-apple-data-detectors://17>
            )

            Jesus grants evidence: "I saw you under the fig tree" (1:47-48)
            Jesus grants evidence: "Put your finger here...
            (20:27<x-apple-data-detectors://18>
            )

            Nathaniel declares his belief in Jesus,"Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you
            are
            the King of Israel." (1:49 <x-apple-data-detectors://19>)
            Thomas declares his belief in Jesus,"My Lord and my God!"
            (20:28<x-apple-data-detectors://20>
            )

            Jesus: "You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You
            shall
            see greater things than these." (1:50 <x-apple-data-detectors://21>)
            Jesus: "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who
            have
            not seen and yet have believed." (20:29 <x-apple-data-detectors://22>)

            Though there are a few unique, near verbatim agreements, overall it's the
            similarities of character and plot confined within such a short space which
            makes this connection most compelling.

            I've found such connections repeated throughout John. It's not just the
            Passion Narrative and John 1-2. I believe John does indeed posses an
            overarching unity. I offer the following structure for consideration.

            A) Seeing and Believing (1:35-51)
            B) Wedding of Cana (2:1-12)
            C) Foreshadowing and Meeting 2:13-3:21 <x-apple-data-detectors://24>)
            D) John the Baptist and a Woman (3:23-4:54 <x-apple-data-detectors://25>)
            E) Voice of Life (5:1-54)
            G) Call to Discipleship (6:1-79)
            E') Voice of Life (7:1-10:41 <x-apple-data-detectors://26>)
            D') Two Women and Caiaphas (11:1-57)
            C') Foreshadowing and Meeting (12:1-50)
            B') Crucifixion (19:25-30)
            A') Seeing and Believing (20:1-29)

            Epilogue
            G') Call to Discipleship (21:1-25)

            God Bless
            Matthew Miller
            Canby Bible College
            Logosmadeflesh@...<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/post?postID=uYJNR7tsKaqi57OGJUpVQlaAFDbacZISWBS4GLoN8leyt7Ov7r5xaFuWoP3TTsMoCJLfJ7GbYvroCK99GomoYsHiSw>

            Matt

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          • Jgibson
            ... Please note that you are reading things into the text _that are not there_ to get your desired parallel. Nowhere in the Cana story does Mary ask to see
            Message 5 of 5 , Nov 28, 2011
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              > From: steve levine
              >
              > I see the connection between Cana and Cross - Mary asked to see water
              > turned to wine and she later saw blood turned to water (it is not yet
              > my time). ________________________________


              Please note that you are reading things into the text _that are not
              there_ to get your desired parallel.

              Nowhere in the Cana story does Mary ask to see /anything/, let alone
              water turned into wine, nor does John say that at the crucifixion Jesus
              blood turned to water. What comes forth from Jesus' side according to
              John is blood AND water. Moreover, is there any noted declaration of
              equivalence in GJohn between water/wine and blood as there is in the
              Synoptics?

              Before you make any more such claims as you made above, I suggest that
              you actually pay closer attention to what the text of John actually says
              than you apparently now do.

              Jeffrey

              --
              ---
              Jeffrey B. Gibson D.Phil. Oxon.
              1500 W. Pratt Blvd
              Chicago, Il.
              jgibson000@...



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