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Re: [John_Lit] The Targums and the "Son of Man" title

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  • jgibson000@comcast.net
    ... I meant to write Danielic. ... Great. But how would one be this Son of Man -- who really is Israel -- on earth before the day of Judgment? ... That s it?
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 3, 2011
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      On 2/3/2011 4:12 PM, Jack Kilmon wrote:
      >
      >> I am afraid that this does not answer my question. What would someone
      >> being the Davidic Son of man entail?
      >>
      > I don't think the Son of Man was Davidic.
      I meant to write Danielic.
      > unless I can be convinced Psalm
      > 144:3 (the only place it is mentioned outside of Daniel) proves differently.
      > The Son of Man would be a divine figure of Daniel 7 seated at the RIGHT HAND
      > of God (the right hand was where all of God's mojo comes from) and the
      > eschatological arbiter of judgment. I recall this is discussed in detail by
      > Darrell Brock (Blasphemy and Exultation in Judaism.
      >
      >
      Great. But how would one be this Son of Man -- who really is Israel --
      on earth before the day of Judgment?

      >> How would this identity manifest
      >> itself in the villages and by ways of Palestine.
      >>
      > The ordinary am ha-aretz were disenfranchised. They lived poorly, dressed
      > poorly and were highly taxed. They were the last at the temple, lucky if
      > they could afford a sacrificial dove. If they were infirm or maimed they
      > could not even approach the temple precinct.The Son of Man could only give
      > them hope and reassurance that in the Malkutha d'alaha it was they who would
      > be first in line.
      >
      That's it? That's how is to be Israel/the saints of the most high/the
      vindicated one -- by promising pie in the sky to the downtrodden?
      >
      >> How specifically was
      >> one to act if one were to claim this role as one's own?
      >>
      > The SOM would go from village to village informing the poor and
      > under-trodden by the temple elite that their time was coming. "Tubayhon
      > l'miskene - congratulations you poor!" "Tubayhon l'abile - congratulations
      > you mourners!" "Tubayhon abdai shlama - congratulations you makers of
      > peace!" "Tubayhon laylen d'itirdepu mittol tsaddikutha d'dilhon malkutha
      > d'shemaya - congratulations to you who are persecuted because of
      > righteousness, yours is the Kingdom of Heaven!" The Son of Man told them
      > that their time had come and they would be rewarded. Justice will prevail
      > after all.
      >
      Did he never attempt to institute this justice in the now? Did he never
      call the leaders of Israel to a new path?
      > What specific
      >
      >> action script would one who was Son of Man think he needed to follow?
      >>
      > Daniel 7:13 חָזֵה הֲוֵית בְּחֶזְוֵי לֵֽילְיָא וַאֲרוּ עִם־עֲנָנֵי שְׁמַיָּא
      > כְּבַר אֱנָשׁ אָתֵה הֲוָה וְעַד־עַתִּיק יֹֽומַיָּא מְטָה וּקְדָמֹוהִי
      > הַקְרְבֽוּהִי׃
      >
      > I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with
      > the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him
      > near before him.
      >

      Yes, he comes /to/ the Ancient of days, not to earth.
      > But the SOM came at the END and Jesus was already there. This is why he
      > spoke of the SOM in the 3rd person. He therefore had to die and as he told
      > Pilatus, return on the clouds of Heaven when he would judge those who would
      > enter his malkutha d'alaha.
      >
      >
      Where is the mention of the SoM /returning/ on the clouds? And isn't
      the role of judge a role also that the both Israel and its Messiah has?

      Jeffrey

      --
      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
      1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      Chicago, Illinois
      e-mail jgibson000@...



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jack Kilmon
      Sorry about the delay in response. Real life called. ... From: Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 4:29 PM To:
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 4, 2011
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        Sorry about the delay in response. Real life called.

        --------------------------------------------------
        From: <jgibson000@...>
        Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 4:29 PM
        To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] The Targums and the "Son of Man" title

        > On 2/3/2011 4:12 PM, Jack Kilmon wrote:
        >>
        >>> I am afraid that this does not answer my question. What would someone
        >>> being the Davidic Son of man entail?
        >>>
        >> I don't think the Son of Man was Davidic.


        > I meant to write Danielic.

        >> unless I can be convinced Psalm
        >> 144:3 (the only place it is mentioned outside of Daniel) proves
        >> differently.
        >> The Son of Man would be a divine figure of Daniel 7 seated at the RIGHT
        >> HAND
        >> of God (the right hand was where all of God's mojo comes from) and the
        >> eschatological arbiter of judgment. I recall this is discussed in detail
        >> by
        >> Darrell Brock (Blasphemy and Exultation in Judaism.
        >>
        >>
        > Great. But how would one be this Son of Man -- who really is Israel --
        > on earth before the day of Judgment?

        We have to keep in mind that we have to look at this in the context of
        Jesus' sayings and try to evaluate what HE thought because there was no more
        consensus then among the "scholars" than now. Since the HJ quest has been
        primarily focused on his sayings corpus we have to look at what Jesus said
        about the SOM. As I said, he spoke about the SOM in the 3rd person since he
        could not come FROM heaven on a cloudburst until he went to heaven UNLESS
        the SOM was not coming but going (see below). We are also very familiar
        with "normative" Mosaic Judaism. If Jesus was outside of that box (my
        opinion) as an Enochian Jew, his view of the Bar Nasha would not necessarily
        be that which we extrapolate from the OT texts. Additionally, the view that
        he learned growing up and the view he held as a developing adult which he
        applied to himself may also not be the same. All we can do is look at the
        sayings material:

        Some are authentic to Jesus and others are not but the last saying in this
        list is what I find more significant in how Jesus saw himself as being the
        SOM and found itself in the Matthean tradition.

        Matthew 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds
        of the air [have] nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay [his]
        head.

        Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many
        things, and be rejected of the elders, and [of] the chief priests, and
        scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

        Matthew 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to
        forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy
        bed, and go unto thine house.

        Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into
        another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities
        of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

        Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold
        a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But
        wisdom is justified of her children.

        Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

        Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall
        be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not
        be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

        Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's
        belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart
        of the earth.

        Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed
        is the Son of man;

        Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall
        gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do
        iniquity;

        Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked
        his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

        Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with
        his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

        Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which
        shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his
        kingdom.

        Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them,
        saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from
        the dead.

        Matthew 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew
        him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also
        the Son of man suffer of them.

        Matthew 17:22 And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son
        of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:

        Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

        Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye
        which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in
        the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the
        twelve tribes of Israel.

        Matthew 20:18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be
        betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn
        him to death,

        Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to
        minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

        Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even
        unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

        Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
        and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son
        of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (this is
        right out of Enoch 7)

        Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of
        the Son of man be.

        Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so
        shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

        Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think
        not the Son of man cometh.

        Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour
        wherein the Son of man cometh.

        Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy
        angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

        Matthew 26:2 Ye know that after two days is [the feast of] the passover,
        and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

        Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto
        that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man
        if he had not been born.

        Matthew 26:45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep
        on now, and take [your] rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of
        Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

        Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto
        you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of
        power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

        λέγει αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς Σὺ εἶπας πλὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ἀπ᾽ ἄρτι ὄψεσθε τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ
        ἀνθρώπου καθήμενον ἐκ δεξιῶν τῆς δυνάμεως καὶ ἐρχόμενον ἐπὶ τῶν νεφελῶν τοῦ
        οὐρανοῦ

        ἔρχομαι means BOTH arriving or returning, coming and going. It could
        just as well mean that Jesus saw himself as GOING in a cloud to the throne
        to be seated at the right hand of God as in Daniel. The Aramaic Chayaya is
        also coming or going. This would accommodate him as the SOM on earth before
        the end times and an ethical rather than apocalytpic eschatology that sets
        up the apocalyptic in the future, the Parousia. Luke appears to confirm
        this at Acts 1:9 "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, HE
        WAS TAKEN UP; AND A CLOUD RECEIVED HIM out of their sight."


        >
        >>> How would this identity manifest
        >>> itself in the villages and by ways of Palestine.
        >>>
        >> The ordinary am ha-aretz were disenfranchised. They lived poorly,
        >> dressed
        >> poorly and were highly taxed. They were the last at the temple, lucky if
        >> they could afford a sacrificial dove. If they were infirm or maimed they
        >> could not even approach the temple precinct.The Son of Man could only
        >> give
        >> them hope and reassurance that in the Malkutha d'alaha it was they who
        >> would
        >> be first in line.
        >>
        > That's it? That's how is to be Israel/the saints of the most high/the
        > vindicated one -- by promising pie in the sky to the downtrodden?

        That "pie" was being FIRST in the Kingdom of Heaven for eternity.


        >>
        >>> How specifically was
        >>> one to act if one were to claim this role as one's own?
        >>>
        >> The SOM would go from village to village informing the poor and
        >> under-trodden by the temple elite that their time was coming. "Tubayhon
        >> l'miskene - congratulations you poor!" "Tubayhon l'abile -
        >> congratulations
        >> you mourners!" "Tubayhon abdai shlama - congratulations you makers of
        >> peace!" "Tubayhon laylen d'itirdepu mittol tsaddikutha d'dilhon malkutha
        >> d'shemaya - congratulations to you who are persecuted because of
        >> righteousness, yours is the Kingdom of Heaven!" The Son of Man told them
        >> that their time had come and they would be rewarded. Justice will prevail
        >> after all.
        >>
        > Did he never attempt to institute this justice in the now? Did he never
        > call the leaders of Israel to a new path?

        The "now" was not his schtick. His primary message and movement was based
        around the imminent malkutha d'alaha "Kingdom of God." It was right around
        the corner so suffer the "now" just a little longer and be righteous and
        "hayden chadau w'arwazu d'agrakon seggy b'shemaya hakanna ger radapu
        lanabiyye demin qadamaykon" Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is]
        your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before
        you.



        >> What specific
        >>
        >>> action script would one who was Son of Man think he needed to follow?
        >>>
        >> Daniel 7:13 חָזֵה הֲוֵית בְּחֶזְוֵי לֵֽילְיָא וַאֲרוּ עִם־עֲנָנֵי
        >> שְׁמַיָּא
        >> כְּבַר אֱנָשׁ אָתֵה הֲוָה וְעַד־עַתִּיק יֹֽומַיָּא מְטָה וּקְדָמֹוהִי
        >> הַקְרְבֽוּהִי׃
        >>
        >> I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came
        >> with
        >> the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought
        >> him
        >> near before him.
        >>
        >
        > Yes, he comes /to/ the Ancient of days, not to earth.

        Or he GOES to instead of COMES.

        >> But the SOM came at the END and Jesus was already there. This is why he
        >> spoke of the SOM in the 3rd person. He therefore had to die and as he
        >> told
        >> Pilatus, return on the clouds of Heaven when he would judge those who
        >> would
        >> enter his malkutha d'alaha.
        >>
        >>
        > Where is the mention of the SoM /returning/ on the clouds? And isn't
        > the role of judge a role also that the both Israel and its Messiah has?

        Daniel 7:13 and paraphrased by Matthew 26:64 but as I said, I think Jesus as
        SOM was GOING in a cloud (Acts 1:9) and would RETURN in a cloud at the
        second coming.

        Jack

        Jack Kilmon
        San Antonio, TX

        >
        > Jeffrey
        >
        > --
        > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        > Chicago, Illinois
        > e-mail jgibson000@...
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
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