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Re: [John_Lit] The Targums and the "Son of Man" title

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  • Jack Kilmon
    ... From: Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:34 PM To: Subject: Re: [John_Lit] The Targums and
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 3, 2011
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      --------------------------------------------------
      From: <jgibson000@...>
      Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:34 PM
      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] The Targums and the "Son of Man" title

      > On 2/3/2011 1:27 PM, Jack Kilmon wrote:
      >>
      >> I do not think that the use of the self designation בר אנשׁ by Jesus,
      >> about
      >> 30 times in Matthew, was to avoid or obscure the direct claim to being
      >> the
      >> Messiah. I don't think Jesus considered himself to be the Messiah but
      >> instead exactly what he claimed himself many times, the "Son of Man" of
      >> Daniel and Enoch.
      >>
      >
      > And what exactly would that claim entail as a public and biographical
      > fact? And how does one claim to be the Son of Man of Daniel without
      > claiming that one is God's elect and the true representative/embodiment
      > of Israel -- which, at least to my eyes, is what the role of Messiah
      > involves?
      >
      > Jeffrey
      >
      > --
      > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
      > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      > Chicago, Illinois
      > e-mail jgibson000@...


      Hi Jeffret:

      Somehow and somewhere the בר אנשׁ and the משׁיחא became conflated. The
      role of the Messiah in a Jewish context appears to be ambiguous but
      redefined by Christians. In one Jewish definition (Maimonides), "And if a
      king shall arise from among the House of David, studying Torah and occupied
      with commandments like his father David, according to the written and oral
      Torah, and he will impel all of Israel to follow it and to strengthen
      breaches in its observance, and will fight Hashem's [God's] wars, this one
      is to be treated as if he were the anointed one.

      Messiahs (anointed ones) had always been priests or kings, like David, a
      warrior king who would overthrow the oppressors and rule over the re-united
      tribes of Israel. The hope for a Messiah, a Pharisaic concept, must have
      been at a fever pitch in the last two centuries BCE (134-63 BCE when a new
      generation of Essenes emerge at the time of Hyrcanus and Alexander Jannaeus
      and persecuted Pharisees come into the group. This is when the 4QTestimonia
      was written and the Manual of Discipline expanded. Suddenly we have full
      blown messianism which includes the advent of a PROPHET and the priestly
      (Aaronic) and royal (Davidic) messiahs (1QS 9-11). This is also the time
      when the basic foundations of the T12P (Testimonies of the 12
      Patriarchs)...previous thought to be of later Christian composition..was
      laid with its priestly and royal messiahs. T12P was a pharisaic work.
      During the Roman Period (63-37 BCE) the Damascus Document (CD), the oldest
      copy of which (4QDb) of 75-50 BCE now conjoins the two messiahs into ONE,
      the Messiah of Aaron and Israel (CD19:10-11; 20:1; 12:23; 14:19).

      In spite of 1 Enoch chapter 48 which is late Ethiopian, I do not think, as
      some do, that they were the same or that it was Jesus who conflated the two.
      If Jesus was, as I suspect, an Enochian Jew I think he saw them as
      seaparate. Of course the ongoing contention and debate over the two will
      probably never be settled and we all have to take a side, right?

      Regards,

      Jack

      Jack Kilmon
      San Antonio, TX
    • jgibson000@comcast.net
      ... I am afraid that this does not answer my question. What would someone being the Davidic Son of man entail? How would this identity manifest itself in
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 3, 2011
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        On 2/3/2011 2:46 PM, Jack Kilmon wrote:
        >
        > --------------------------------------------------
        > From:<jgibson000@...>
        > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:34 PM
        > To:<johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
        > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] The Targums and the "Son of Man" title
        >
        >
        >> On 2/3/2011 1:27 PM, Jack Kilmon wrote:
        >>
        >>> I do not think that the use of the self designation בר אנשׁ by Jesus,
        >>> about
        >>> 30 times in Matthew, was to avoid or obscure the direct claim to being
        >>> the
        >>> Messiah. I don't think Jesus considered himself to be the Messiah but
        >>> instead exactly what he claimed himself many times, the "Son of Man" of
        >>> Daniel and Enoch.
        >>>
        >>>
        >> And what exactly would that claim entail as a public and biographical
        >> fact? And how does one claim to be the Son of Man of Daniel without
        >> claiming that one is God's elect and the true representative/embodiment
        >> of Israel -- which, at least to my eyes, is what the role of Messiah
        >> involves?
        >>
        >> Jeffrey
        >>
        >> --
        >> Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        >> 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        >> Chicago, Illinois
        >> e-mail jgibson000@...
        >>
        >
        > Hi Jeffret:
        >
        > Somehow and somewhere the בר אנשׁ and the משׁיחא became conflated. The
        > role of the Messiah in a Jewish context appears to be ambiguous but
        > redefined by Christians. In one Jewish definition (Maimonides), "And if a
        > king shall arise from among the House of David, studying Torah and occupied
        > with commandments like his father David, according to the written and oral
        > Torah, and he will impel all of Israel to follow it and to strengthen
        > breaches in its observance, and will fight Hashem's [God's] wars, this one
        > is to be treated as if he were the anointed one.
        >
        > Messiahs (anointed ones) had always been priests or kings, like David, a
        > warrior king who would overthrow the oppressors and rule over the re-united
        > tribes of Israel. The hope for a Messiah, a Pharisaic concept, must have
        > been at a fever pitch in the last two centuries BCE (134-63 BCE when a new
        > generation of Essenes emerge at the time of Hyrcanus and Alexander Jannaeus
        > and persecuted Pharisees come into the group. This is when the 4QTestimonia
        > was written and the Manual of Discipline expanded. Suddenly we have full
        > blown messianism which includes the advent of a PROPHET and the priestly
        > (Aaronic) and royal (Davidic) messiahs (1QS 9-11). This is also the time
        > when the basic foundations of the T12P (Testimonies of the 12
        > Patriarchs)...previous thought to be of later Christian composition..was
        > laid with its priestly and royal messiahs. T12P was a pharisaic work.
        > During the Roman Period (63-37 BCE) the Damascus Document (CD), the oldest
        > copy of which (4QDb) of 75-50 BCE now conjoins the two messiahs into ONE,
        > the Messiah of Aaron and Israel (CD19:10-11; 20:1; 12:23; 14:19).
        >
        > In spite of 1 Enoch chapter 48 which is late Ethiopian, I do not think, as
        > some do, that they were the same or that it was Jesus who conflated the two.
        > If Jesus was, as I suspect, an Enochian Jew I think he saw them as
        > seaparate. Of course the ongoing contention and debate over the two will
        > probably never be settled and we all have to take a side, right?
        >
        >
        I am afraid that this does not answer my question. What would someone
        being the Davidic Son of man entail? How would this identity manifest
        itself in the villages and by ways of Palestine. How specifically was
        one to act if one were to claim this role as one's own? What specific
        action script would one who was Son of Man think he needed to follow?

        Jeffrey

        --
        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        Chicago, Illinois
        e-mail jgibson000@...
      • Jack Kilmon
        ... From: John Ronning Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:18 PM To: Subject: Re: [John_Lit] The
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 3, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          --------------------------------------------------
          From: "John Ronning" <jronning@...>
          Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:18 PM
          To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] The Targums and the "Son of Man" title

          > Hi Jack,
          >
          > That's all very interesting -- I don't have the background to comment on
          > all of
          > the Enoch references. I tend to think that the DSS don't tell us anything
          > definitive about Targum usage in the first century outside of the Essene
          > community.
          >
          > I would disagree that Jesus never once claimed with certainty that he was
          > the
          > Messiah (taking the "words in red" from the NT, whether or not you regard
          > them
          > as authentic).
          >
          > Interesting that his clearest claim to this title is spoken to the
          > Samaritan
          > woman (John 4:26), not to the Jews. Is this not consistent with the view
          > that he
          > veiled such claims when speaking to the Jews?
          >
          > But when Peter says "You are the Christ," Jesus says this (truth) has been
          > revealed to him by his Father (Matt 16:17).
          >
          > And at his trial he identifies himself as the Son of Man in terms of Dan
          > 7:13
          > (Matt 26:64 etc.), equating this figure with the one at the right hand of
          > God
          > referred to in Psalm 110:1, whom Jesus elsewhere affirmed is the Christ
          > (Matt
          > 22:42-45). At least, his accusers took this as a "yes" answer to the
          > question
          > "Are you the Christ?" and he did not correct them. John the Baptist gave a
          > very
          > plain "no" to such questions, as piety required of him - so should Jesus
          > if "no"
          > was the answer. In the Synoptic accounts of Jesus' trial, then, it seems
          > to be
          > assumed that the one like a son of man of Dan 7:13 was to be equated with
          > the
          > Messiah.
          >
          > Regards,
          > John

          Hi John:

          I am going to clip the double lengthy posts of ours that anyone can look
          back on.

          I consider the entire block between about John 3:9 to 4:42 (with absolutely
          no parallels, even as elaborated or redacted passages, elsewhere) to be an
          invention of John of Ephesus (that's another story) and I think very few
          scholars accept Matthew 16:17 as authentic to the vox Iesu. I think the
          lack of a clear admission to being the Messiah and the clear statement
          invoking Daniel 7:13 at the trial (perhaps a suggestion of authenticity)
          supports my position.

          Regards,

          Jack

          Jack Kilmon
          San Antonio, TX
        • Jack Kilmon
          ... From: Jack Kilmon Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:46 PM To: Subject: Re: [John_Lit]
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 3, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            --------------------------------------------------
            From: "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon@...>
            Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:46 PM
            To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: Re: [John_Lit] The Targums and the "Son of Man" title

            > Hi Jeffret: (ooops! Sorry, old friend) JEFFREY
            >
            > Somehow and somewhere the בר אנשׁ and the משׁיחא became conflated. The
            > role of the Messiah in a Jewish context appears to be ambiguous but
            > redefined by Christians. In one Jewish definition (Maimonides), "And if
            > a
          • Jack Kilmon
            ... From: Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:53 PM To: Subject: Re: [John_Lit] The Targums and
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 3, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              --------------------------------------------------
              From: <jgibson000@...>
              Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:53 PM
              To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] The Targums and the "Son of Man" title

              > On 2/3/2011 2:46 PM, Jack Kilmon wrote:
              >>
              >> --------------------------------------------------
              >> From:<jgibson000@...>
              >> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:34 PM
              >> To:<johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
              >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] The Targums and the "Son of Man" title
              >>
              >>
              >>> On 2/3/2011 1:27 PM, Jack Kilmon wrote:
              >>>
              >>>> I do not think that the use of the self designation בר אנשׁ by Jesus,
              >>>> about
              >>>> 30 times in Matthew, was to avoid or obscure the direct claim to being
              >>>> the
              >>>> Messiah. I don't think Jesus considered himself to be the Messiah but
              >>>> instead exactly what he claimed himself many times, the "Son of Man" of
              >>>> Daniel and Enoch.
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>> And what exactly would that claim entail as a public and biographical
              >>> fact? And how does one claim to be the Son of Man of Daniel without
              >>> claiming that one is God's elect and the true representative/embodiment
              >>> of Israel -- which, at least to my eyes, is what the role of Messiah
              >>> involves?
              >>>
              >>> Jeffrey
              >>>
              >>> --
              >>> Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
              >>> 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
              >>> Chicago, Illinois
              >>> e-mail jgibson000@...
              >>>
              >>
              >> Hi Jeffret:
              >>
              >> Somehow and somewhere the בר אנשׁ and the משׁיחא became conflated. The
              >> role of the Messiah in a Jewish context appears to be ambiguous but
              >> redefined by Christians. In one Jewish definition (Maimonides), "And if
              >> a
              >> king shall arise from among the House of David, studying Torah and
              >> occupied
              >> with commandments like his father David, according to the written and
              >> oral
              >> Torah, and he will impel all of Israel to follow it and to strengthen
              >> breaches in its observance, and will fight Hashem's [God's] wars, this
              >> one
              >> is to be treated as if he were the anointed one.
              >>
              >> Messiahs (anointed ones) had always been priests or kings, like David, a
              >> warrior king who would overthrow the oppressors and rule over the
              >> re-united
              >> tribes of Israel. The hope for a Messiah, a Pharisaic concept, must have
              >> been at a fever pitch in the last two centuries BCE (134-63 BCE when a
              >> new
              >> generation of Essenes emerge at the time of Hyrcanus and Alexander
              >> Jannaeus
              >> and persecuted Pharisees come into the group. This is when the
              >> 4QTestimonia
              >> was written and the Manual of Discipline expanded. Suddenly we have full
              >> blown messianism which includes the advent of a PROPHET and the priestly
              >> (Aaronic) and royal (Davidic) messiahs (1QS 9-11). This is also the time
              >> when the basic foundations of the T12P (Testimonies of the 12
              >> Patriarchs)...previous thought to be of later Christian composition..was
              >> laid with its priestly and royal messiahs. T12P was a pharisaic work.
              >> During the Roman Period (63-37 BCE) the Damascus Document (CD), the
              >> oldest
              >> copy of which (4QDb) of 75-50 BCE now conjoins the two messiahs into ONE,
              >> the Messiah of Aaron and Israel (CD19:10-11; 20:1; 12:23; 14:19).
              >>
              >> In spite of 1 Enoch chapter 48 which is late Ethiopian, I do not think,
              >> as
              >> some do, that they were the same or that it was Jesus who conflated the
              >> two.
              >> If Jesus was, as I suspect, an Enochian Jew I think he saw them as
              >> seaparate. Of course the ongoing contention and debate over the two will
              >> probably never be settled and we all have to take a side, right?
              >>
              >>
              > I am afraid that this does not answer my question. What would someone
              > being the Davidic Son of man entail? How would this identity manifest
              > itself in the villages and by ways of Palestine. How specifically was
              > one to act if one were to claim this role as one's own? What specific
              > action script would one who was Son of Man think he needed to follow?
              >
              > Jeffrey
              >
              > --
              > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
              > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
              > Chicago, Illinois
              > e-mail jgibson000@...


              OK, let me take your questions individually:

              > I am afraid that this does not answer my question. What would someone
              > being the Davidic Son of man entail?

              I don't think the Son of Man was Davidic. unless I can be convinced Psalm
              144:3 (the only place it is mentioned outside of Daniel) proves differently.
              The Son of Man would be a divine figure of Daniel 7 seated at the RIGHT HAND
              of God (the right hand was where all of God's mojo comes from) and the
              eschatological arbiter of judgment. I recall this is discussed in detail by
              Darrell Brock (Blasphemy and Exultation in Judaism.

              > How would this identity manifest
              > itself in the villages and by ways of Palestine.

              The ordinary am ha-aretz were disenfranchised. They lived poorly, dressed
              poorly and were highly taxed. They were the last at the temple, lucky if
              they could afford a sacrificial dove. If they were infirm or maimed they
              could not even approach the temple precinct.The Son of Man could only give
              them hope and reassurance that in the Malkutha d'alaha it was they who would
              be first in line.

              > How specifically was
              > one to act if one were to claim this role as one's own?

              The SOM would go from village to village informing the poor and
              under-trodden by the temple elite that their time was coming. "Tubayhon
              l'miskene - congratulations you poor!" "Tubayhon l'abile - congratulations
              you mourners!" "Tubayhon abdai shlama - congratulations you makers of
              peace!" "Tubayhon laylen d'itirdepu mittol tsaddikutha d'dilhon malkutha
              d'shemaya - congratulations to you who are persecuted because of
              righteousness, yours is the Kingdom of Heaven!" The Son of Man told them
              that their time had come and they would be rewarded. Justice will prevail
              after all.

              What specific
              > action script would one who was Son of Man think he needed to follow?

              Daniel 7:13 חָזֵה הֲוֵית בְּחֶזְוֵי לֵֽילְיָא וַאֲרוּ עִם־עֲנָנֵי שְׁמַיָּא
              כְּבַר אֱנָשׁ אָתֵה הֲוָה וְעַד־עַתִּיק יֹֽומַיָּא מְטָה וּקְדָמֹוהִי
              הַקְרְבֽוּהִי׃

              I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with
              the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him
              near before him.

              But the SOM came at the END and Jesus was already there. This is why he
              spoke of the SOM in the 3rd person. He therefore had to die and as he told
              Pilatus, return on the clouds of Heaven when he would judge those who would
              enter his malkutha d'alaha.

              Regards,

              Jack

              Jack Kilmon
              San Antonio, TX

              >
            • jgibson000@comcast.net
              ... I meant to write Danielic. ... Great. But how would one be this Son of Man -- who really is Israel -- on earth before the day of Judgment? ... That s it?
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 3, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                On 2/3/2011 4:12 PM, Jack Kilmon wrote:
                >
                >> I am afraid that this does not answer my question. What would someone
                >> being the Davidic Son of man entail?
                >>
                > I don't think the Son of Man was Davidic.
                I meant to write Danielic.
                > unless I can be convinced Psalm
                > 144:3 (the only place it is mentioned outside of Daniel) proves differently.
                > The Son of Man would be a divine figure of Daniel 7 seated at the RIGHT HAND
                > of God (the right hand was where all of God's mojo comes from) and the
                > eschatological arbiter of judgment. I recall this is discussed in detail by
                > Darrell Brock (Blasphemy and Exultation in Judaism.
                >
                >
                Great. But how would one be this Son of Man -- who really is Israel --
                on earth before the day of Judgment?

                >> How would this identity manifest
                >> itself in the villages and by ways of Palestine.
                >>
                > The ordinary am ha-aretz were disenfranchised. They lived poorly, dressed
                > poorly and were highly taxed. They were the last at the temple, lucky if
                > they could afford a sacrificial dove. If they were infirm or maimed they
                > could not even approach the temple precinct.The Son of Man could only give
                > them hope and reassurance that in the Malkutha d'alaha it was they who would
                > be first in line.
                >
                That's it? That's how is to be Israel/the saints of the most high/the
                vindicated one -- by promising pie in the sky to the downtrodden?
                >
                >> How specifically was
                >> one to act if one were to claim this role as one's own?
                >>
                > The SOM would go from village to village informing the poor and
                > under-trodden by the temple elite that their time was coming. "Tubayhon
                > l'miskene - congratulations you poor!" "Tubayhon l'abile - congratulations
                > you mourners!" "Tubayhon abdai shlama - congratulations you makers of
                > peace!" "Tubayhon laylen d'itirdepu mittol tsaddikutha d'dilhon malkutha
                > d'shemaya - congratulations to you who are persecuted because of
                > righteousness, yours is the Kingdom of Heaven!" The Son of Man told them
                > that their time had come and they would be rewarded. Justice will prevail
                > after all.
                >
                Did he never attempt to institute this justice in the now? Did he never
                call the leaders of Israel to a new path?
                > What specific
                >
                >> action script would one who was Son of Man think he needed to follow?
                >>
                > Daniel 7:13 חָזֵה הֲוֵית בְּחֶזְוֵי לֵֽילְיָא וַאֲרוּ עִם־עֲנָנֵי שְׁמַיָּא
                > כְּבַר אֱנָשׁ אָתֵה הֲוָה וְעַד־עַתִּיק יֹֽומַיָּא מְטָה וּקְדָמֹוהִי
                > הַקְרְבֽוּהִי׃
                >
                > I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with
                > the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him
                > near before him.
                >

                Yes, he comes /to/ the Ancient of days, not to earth.
                > But the SOM came at the END and Jesus was already there. This is why he
                > spoke of the SOM in the 3rd person. He therefore had to die and as he told
                > Pilatus, return on the clouds of Heaven when he would judge those who would
                > enter his malkutha d'alaha.
                >
                >
                Where is the mention of the SoM /returning/ on the clouds? And isn't
                the role of judge a role also that the both Israel and its Messiah has?

                Jeffrey

                --
                Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                Chicago, Illinois
                e-mail jgibson000@...



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jack Kilmon
                Sorry about the delay in response. Real life called. ... From: Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 4:29 PM To:
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 4, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Sorry about the delay in response. Real life called.

                  --------------------------------------------------
                  From: <jgibson000@...>
                  Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 4:29 PM
                  To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                  Subject: Re: [John_Lit] The Targums and the "Son of Man" title

                  > On 2/3/2011 4:12 PM, Jack Kilmon wrote:
                  >>
                  >>> I am afraid that this does not answer my question. What would someone
                  >>> being the Davidic Son of man entail?
                  >>>
                  >> I don't think the Son of Man was Davidic.


                  > I meant to write Danielic.

                  >> unless I can be convinced Psalm
                  >> 144:3 (the only place it is mentioned outside of Daniel) proves
                  >> differently.
                  >> The Son of Man would be a divine figure of Daniel 7 seated at the RIGHT
                  >> HAND
                  >> of God (the right hand was where all of God's mojo comes from) and the
                  >> eschatological arbiter of judgment. I recall this is discussed in detail
                  >> by
                  >> Darrell Brock (Blasphemy and Exultation in Judaism.
                  >>
                  >>
                  > Great. But how would one be this Son of Man -- who really is Israel --
                  > on earth before the day of Judgment?

                  We have to keep in mind that we have to look at this in the context of
                  Jesus' sayings and try to evaluate what HE thought because there was no more
                  consensus then among the "scholars" than now. Since the HJ quest has been
                  primarily focused on his sayings corpus we have to look at what Jesus said
                  about the SOM. As I said, he spoke about the SOM in the 3rd person since he
                  could not come FROM heaven on a cloudburst until he went to heaven UNLESS
                  the SOM was not coming but going (see below). We are also very familiar
                  with "normative" Mosaic Judaism. If Jesus was outside of that box (my
                  opinion) as an Enochian Jew, his view of the Bar Nasha would not necessarily
                  be that which we extrapolate from the OT texts. Additionally, the view that
                  he learned growing up and the view he held as a developing adult which he
                  applied to himself may also not be the same. All we can do is look at the
                  sayings material:

                  Some are authentic to Jesus and others are not but the last saying in this
                  list is what I find more significant in how Jesus saw himself as being the
                  SOM and found itself in the Matthean tradition.

                  Matthew 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds
                  of the air [have] nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay [his]
                  head.

                  Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many
                  things, and be rejected of the elders, and [of] the chief priests, and
                  scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

                  Matthew 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to
                  forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy
                  bed, and go unto thine house.

                  Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into
                  another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities
                  of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

                  Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold
                  a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But
                  wisdom is justified of her children.

                  Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

                  Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall
                  be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not
                  be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

                  Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's
                  belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart
                  of the earth.

                  Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed
                  is the Son of man;

                  Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall
                  gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do
                  iniquity;

                  Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked
                  his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

                  Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with
                  his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

                  Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which
                  shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his
                  kingdom.

                  Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them,
                  saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from
                  the dead.

                  Matthew 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew
                  him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also
                  the Son of man suffer of them.

                  Matthew 17:22 And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son
                  of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:

                  Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

                  Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye
                  which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in
                  the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the
                  twelve tribes of Israel.

                  Matthew 20:18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be
                  betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn
                  him to death,

                  Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to
                  minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

                  Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even
                  unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

                  Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
                  and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son
                  of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (this is
                  right out of Enoch 7)

                  Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of
                  the Son of man be.

                  Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so
                  shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

                  Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think
                  not the Son of man cometh.

                  Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour
                  wherein the Son of man cometh.

                  Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy
                  angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

                  Matthew 26:2 Ye know that after two days is [the feast of] the passover,
                  and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

                  Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto
                  that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man
                  if he had not been born.

                  Matthew 26:45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep
                  on now, and take [your] rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of
                  Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

                  Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto
                  you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of
                  power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

                  λέγει αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς Σὺ εἶπας πλὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ἀπ᾽ ἄρτι ὄψεσθε τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ
                  ἀνθρώπου καθήμενον ἐκ δεξιῶν τῆς δυνάμεως καὶ ἐρχόμενον ἐπὶ τῶν νεφελῶν τοῦ
                  οὐρανοῦ

                  ἔρχομαι means BOTH arriving or returning, coming and going. It could
                  just as well mean that Jesus saw himself as GOING in a cloud to the throne
                  to be seated at the right hand of God as in Daniel. The Aramaic Chayaya is
                  also coming or going. This would accommodate him as the SOM on earth before
                  the end times and an ethical rather than apocalytpic eschatology that sets
                  up the apocalyptic in the future, the Parousia. Luke appears to confirm
                  this at Acts 1:9 "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, HE
                  WAS TAKEN UP; AND A CLOUD RECEIVED HIM out of their sight."


                  >
                  >>> How would this identity manifest
                  >>> itself in the villages and by ways of Palestine.
                  >>>
                  >> The ordinary am ha-aretz were disenfranchised. They lived poorly,
                  >> dressed
                  >> poorly and were highly taxed. They were the last at the temple, lucky if
                  >> they could afford a sacrificial dove. If they were infirm or maimed they
                  >> could not even approach the temple precinct.The Son of Man could only
                  >> give
                  >> them hope and reassurance that in the Malkutha d'alaha it was they who
                  >> would
                  >> be first in line.
                  >>
                  > That's it? That's how is to be Israel/the saints of the most high/the
                  > vindicated one -- by promising pie in the sky to the downtrodden?

                  That "pie" was being FIRST in the Kingdom of Heaven for eternity.


                  >>
                  >>> How specifically was
                  >>> one to act if one were to claim this role as one's own?
                  >>>
                  >> The SOM would go from village to village informing the poor and
                  >> under-trodden by the temple elite that their time was coming. "Tubayhon
                  >> l'miskene - congratulations you poor!" "Tubayhon l'abile -
                  >> congratulations
                  >> you mourners!" "Tubayhon abdai shlama - congratulations you makers of
                  >> peace!" "Tubayhon laylen d'itirdepu mittol tsaddikutha d'dilhon malkutha
                  >> d'shemaya - congratulations to you who are persecuted because of
                  >> righteousness, yours is the Kingdom of Heaven!" The Son of Man told them
                  >> that their time had come and they would be rewarded. Justice will prevail
                  >> after all.
                  >>
                  > Did he never attempt to institute this justice in the now? Did he never
                  > call the leaders of Israel to a new path?

                  The "now" was not his schtick. His primary message and movement was based
                  around the imminent malkutha d'alaha "Kingdom of God." It was right around
                  the corner so suffer the "now" just a little longer and be righteous and
                  "hayden chadau w'arwazu d'agrakon seggy b'shemaya hakanna ger radapu
                  lanabiyye demin qadamaykon" Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is]
                  your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before
                  you.



                  >> What specific
                  >>
                  >>> action script would one who was Son of Man think he needed to follow?
                  >>>
                  >> Daniel 7:13 חָזֵה הֲוֵית בְּחֶזְוֵי לֵֽילְיָא וַאֲרוּ עִם־עֲנָנֵי
                  >> שְׁמַיָּא
                  >> כְּבַר אֱנָשׁ אָתֵה הֲוָה וְעַד־עַתִּיק יֹֽומַיָּא מְטָה וּקְדָמֹוהִי
                  >> הַקְרְבֽוּהִי׃
                  >>
                  >> I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came
                  >> with
                  >> the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought
                  >> him
                  >> near before him.
                  >>
                  >
                  > Yes, he comes /to/ the Ancient of days, not to earth.

                  Or he GOES to instead of COMES.

                  >> But the SOM came at the END and Jesus was already there. This is why he
                  >> spoke of the SOM in the 3rd person. He therefore had to die and as he
                  >> told
                  >> Pilatus, return on the clouds of Heaven when he would judge those who
                  >> would
                  >> enter his malkutha d'alaha.
                  >>
                  >>
                  > Where is the mention of the SoM /returning/ on the clouds? And isn't
                  > the role of judge a role also that the both Israel and its Messiah has?

                  Daniel 7:13 and paraphrased by Matthew 26:64 but as I said, I think Jesus as
                  SOM was GOING in a cloud (Acts 1:9) and would RETURN in a cloud at the
                  second coming.

                  Jack

                  Jack Kilmon
                  San Antonio, TX

                  >
                  > Jeffrey
                  >
                  > --
                  > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                  > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                  > Chicago, Illinois
                  > e-mail jgibson000@...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
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