Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [John_Lit] Targum background to John's Logos title

Expand Messages
  • Ramsey Michaels
    I appreciate John Ronning s comments about the targums. I have always been a bit cautious about the targums because of the difficulty of dating their origins.
    Message 1 of 23 , Jan 31, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      I appreciate John Ronning's comments about the targums. I have always been a bit cautious about the targums because of the difficulty of dating their origins. Moreover , it has seemed to me that the parallels more likely rest on a common use of certain key OT texts than on literary dependence one way or the other. Given the tendency within Judaism (and specifically in the targums) to avoid speaking of the Deity directly, but rather of his "word" or "name," or "glory," or some other locution, parallels to the Gospel of John are not altogether surprising.

      However, I do agree with John that his book, along with certain others, remains a valuable supplement to most of the commentaries, including mine. We all need to be reminded of what we have overlooked either by accident or on purpose.

      Ramsey



      ----- Original Message -----
      From: John Ronning
      To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 12:16 PM
      Subject: [John_Lit] Targum background to John's Logos title



      Paul noted Jim West's review of Ramsey Michaels' new commentary on John. Jim
      also reviewed my book on John which came out a year ago:
      http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2010/03/30/the-jewish-targums-and-johns-logos-theology/

      This book amplifies on an article I mentioned on this list a few years ago: "The
      Targum of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" (WTJ, Fall of 2007). A number of
      members on this list expressed interest at the time, although not much
      discussion ensued.

      Although Ramsey's commentary is no doubt valuable in many respects, I was
      disappointed not only in a lack of discussion of the possibility of the Targum
      background (Aramaic Memra/Dibbera as divine Word), to the Logos title, but in
      the view that the Logos title was not as important as often deemed to be.
      Recognizing the Targum background does in fact lead to seeing Jesus as "the
      Word" throughout the Gospel. In this respect, Leon Morris' commentary was
      superior, since he allowed for the Targum background (as did Raymond Brown).
      Unfortunately, although both Morris and Brown wrote post-commentary books on
      John, neither evidently pursued this possibility.

      L:et me highlight just a few of many many examples:
      1. John 1:11-12: both the idea of receiving/not receiving the divine Word, as
      well as believing/not believing in the name of the divine Word are common in the
      Targums. Sometimes they are found close together, e.g. Deut 9:23 (I give Targum
      renderings in brackets): "You neither believed him [Neofiti: you did not believe
      in the holy name of the Word of the Lord] nor listened to his voice [Onqelos and
      Ps-Jonathan: you did not receive his Word]." "Receive my Word" is also found as
      a rendering for other expressions such as "come to me" (Isa 55:1-3), an
      invitation which Jesus gave repeatedly, with evident dependence on Isa 55:1-3.

      2. John 12:37--though he had performed so many signs before them, they were not
      believing in him. This is an evident paraphrase of Num 14:11--How long will they
      not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have done in their midst? In the
      Targums it is "how long will they not believe in my Word" (Neofiti, "in the name
      of my Word" - see again John 1:12).

      3. John 12:41--these things Isaiah said [John has just quoted Isaiah 6] because
      he saw his glory. Burney pointed out long ago that in the Isaiah Targum, Isaiah
      sees the glory of the Shekinah of the Lord and hears the Word of the Lord speak
      to him. In addition to that, Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 "lifts" a phrase from Isa
      6:1 suggesting how a more "Palestinian" Targum of Isaiah might have read in the
      time of John: "the Word of the Lord sits upon his throne, high and lifted up,
      and hears our prayers."

      4. We can also see the repeated divine "I am he" sayings of Jesus (e.g. those
      dependent on Deut 32:39, Isa 43:10, 13, and 52:6) as complementing the Logos
      title, once we see that a Targum background implies "the Word" = the name of
      God. The two come together in Neofiti and Frag. Tg. V Deut 32:39: "I, in my
      Word, am he."

      Hopefully the time will come when all of this material will be given due
      consideration. Until then, my book is a necessary supplement to the
      commentaries. Yes I know that sounds like self-interest, but I also think it's
      true and of major importance for Johannine studies.

      Regards,

      John Ronning

      ________________________________
      From: Paul Anderson <panderso@...>
      To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sun, January 23, 2011 11:52:48 AM
      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Riddles, etc.

      Wonderful, Ramsey, excellent discussions of your fine work!

      Would you care to share with us how you approached your commentary and how
      it might follow and depart from Morris's commentary? For instance, how did
      you approach composition, setting, audience(s), literary, and historical
      issues, etc?

      I'm sure this will be a "must-have" in all serious Johannine libraries;
      thanks for your invaluable service to readers of John internationally!

      Paul

      On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 5:26 AM, Ramsey Michaels <profram@...>wrote:

      > Hi Everyone,
      >
      > Since Paul has set a precedent, here is a link to Jim West's review of my
      > new NICNT Commentary on the Gospel of John:
      >
      >
      >http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2010/10/28/the-gospel-of-john-the-new-international-commentary-on-the-new-testament/
      >/
      >
      >
      > Also, in case you haven't seen it, a link to Matthew Montonini's three-part
      > interview with me about the Commentary on his New Testament Perspectives:
      >
      >
      >http://newtestamentperspectives.blogspot.com/2010/10/j-ramsey-michaels-interview-part-iii.html
      >l
      >
      > Best wishes to all,
      >
      > Ramsey Michaels
      > Portsmouth, New Hampshire
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Paul Anderson
      > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 10:02 PM
      > Subject: [John_Lit] Riddles, etc.
      >
      >
      >
      > Dear fellow Johannine scholars,
      >
      > Here are a few things that might be of interest:
      >
      > a) My new introduction to John, *The Riddles of the Fourth Gospel*
      > (Fortress
      > Press, forthcoming) is being previewed by Jim West on the Zwingli website
      > in
      > case any are interested in following:
      >
      >http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2011/01/22/the-riddles-of-the-fourth-gospel-an-introduction-to-john/
      >/
      >
      >http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2011/01/22/a-guest-post-by-paul-anderson/
      >/
      >
      > A review session is also being organized for the May meetings of the
      > Pacific
      > Northwest AAR/SBL/ASOR meetings in Spokane, so if any of you are
      > interested
      > in serving on the panel, do let me know (offline, please, at
      > panderso@...).
      >
      > b) Tom Thatcher led an excellent Colloquium discussion on the John, Jesus,
      > and History a few days ago, so you might follow up on that if you're
      > interested in the latest on that front. See also the website, managed by
      > Felix Just, posting the papers and abstracts over the last nine years if
      > interested.
      >
      >
      > http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2011/01/09/john-jesus-and-history/
      >
      > http://johannine.org/JJH-2010.html
      >
      > c) And, here are several other postings on *Bible and Interpretation*,
      > giving an update on the JJH Project as well as a Bi-Optic Hypothesis, my
      > dialogue with Marcus Borg, and an overlooked first-century clue to John's
      > authorhip.
      > http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/john1357917.shtml
      >
      > http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/fourth357921.shtml
      >
      > http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/mainz357911.shtml
      > http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/acts357920.shtml
      >
      > Take care,
      >
      > Paul Anderson
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
      > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messagesYahoo! Groups
      > Links
      >
      >
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Matthew Estrada
      Hi John, I you can find the time, please check out my blog to read what I have written on John s use of the scriptures (OT and NT source material).
      Message 2 of 23 , Jan 31, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi John,

        I you can find the time, please check out my blog to read what I have written on
        John's use of the scriptures (OT and NT source material).

        http://estradablog.wordpress.com/the-cana-miracle-2/
         

        Sincerely,

        Matt Estrada




        ________________________________
        From: John Ronning <jronning@...>
        To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Mon, January 31, 2011 12:16:07 PM
        Subject: [John_Lit] Targum background to John's Logos title

         
        Paul noted Jim West's review of Ramsey Michaels' new commentary on John. Jim
        also reviewed my book on John which came out a year ago:
        http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2010/03/30/the-jewish-targums-and-johns-logos-theology/


        This book amplifies on an article I mentioned on this list a few years ago: "The

        Targum of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" (WTJ, Fall of 2007). A number of
        members on this list expressed interest at the time, although not much
        discussion ensued.

        Although Ramsey's commentary is no doubt valuable in many respects, I was
        disappointed not only in a lack of discussion of the possibility of the Targum
        background (Aramaic Memra/Dibbera as divine Word), to the Logos title, but in
        the view that the Logos title was not as important as often deemed to be.
        Recognizing the Targum background does in fact lead to seeing Jesus as "the
        Word" throughout the Gospel. In this respect, Leon Morris' commentary was
        superior, since he allowed for the Targum background (as did Raymond Brown).
        Unfortunately, although both Morris and Brown wrote post-commentary books on
        John, neither evidently pursued this possibility.

        L:et me highlight just a few of many many examples:
        1. John 1:11-12: both the idea of receiving/not receiving the divine Word, as
        well as believing/not believing in the name of the divine Word are common in the

        Targums. Sometimes they are found close together, e.g. Deut 9:23 (I give Targum
        renderings in brackets): "You neither believed him [Neofiti: you did not believe

        in the holy name of the Word of the Lord] nor listened to his voice [Onqelos and

        Ps-Jonathan: you did not receive his Word]." "Receive my Word" is also found as
        a rendering for other expressions such as "come to me" (Isa 55:1-3), an
        invitation which Jesus gave repeatedly, with evident dependence on Isa 55:1-3.

        2. John 12:37--though he had performed so many signs before them, they were not
        believing in him. This is an evident paraphrase of Num 14:11--How long will they

        not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have done in their midst? In the
        Targums it is "how long will they not believe in my Word" (Neofiti, "in the name

        of my Word" - see again John 1:12).

        3. John 12:41--these things Isaiah said [John has just quoted Isaiah 6] because
        he saw his glory. Burney pointed out long ago that in the Isaiah Targum, Isaiah
        sees the glory of the Shekinah of the Lord and hears the Word of the Lord speak
        to him. In addition to that, Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 "lifts" a phrase from Isa
        6:1 suggesting how a more "Palestinian" Targum of Isaiah might have read in the
        time of John: "the Word of the Lord sits upon his throne, high and lifted up,
        and hears our prayers."

        4. We can also see the repeated divine "I am he" sayings of Jesus (e.g. those
        dependent on Deut 32:39, Isa 43:10, 13, and 52:6) as complementing the Logos
        title, once we see that a Targum background implies "the Word" = the name of
        God. The two come together in Neofiti and Frag. Tg. V Deut 32:39: "I, in my
        Word, am he."

        Hopefully the time will come when all of this material will be given due
        consideration. Until then, my book is a necessary supplement to the
        commentaries. Yes I know that sounds like self-interest, but I also think it's
        true and of major importance for Johannine studies.

        Regards,

        John Ronning

        ________________________________
        From: Paul Anderson <panderso@...>
        To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sun, January 23, 2011 11:52:48 AM
        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Riddles, etc.

        Wonderful, Ramsey, excellent discussions of your fine work!

        Would you care to share with us how you approached your commentary and how
        it might follow and depart from Morris's commentary? For instance, how did
        you approach composition, setting, audience(s), literary, and historical
        issues, etc?

        I'm sure this will be a "must-have" in all serious Johannine libraries;
        thanks for your invaluable service to readers of John internationally!

        Paul

        On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 5:26 AM, Ramsey Michaels <profram@...>wrote:

        > Hi Everyone,
        >
        > Since Paul has set a precedent, here is a link to Jim West's review of my
        > new NICNT Commentary on the Gospel of John:
        >
        >
        >http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2010/10/28/the-gospel-of-john-the-new-international-commentary-on-the-new-testament/
        >
        >/
        >
        >
        > Also, in case you haven't seen it, a link to Matthew Montonini's three-part
        > interview with me about the Commentary on his New Testament Perspectives:
        >
        >
        >http://newtestamentperspectives.blogspot.com/2010/10/j-ramsey-michaels-interview-part-iii.html
        >
        >l
        >
        > Best wishes to all,
        >
        > Ramsey Michaels
        > Portsmouth, New Hampshire
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Paul Anderson
        > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 10:02 PM
        > Subject: [John_Lit] Riddles, etc.
        >
        >
        >
        > Dear fellow Johannine scholars,
        >
        > Here are a few things that might be of interest:
        >
        > a) My new introduction to John, *The Riddles of the Fourth Gospel*
        > (Fortress
        > Press, forthcoming) is being previewed by Jim West on the Zwingli website
        > in
        > case any are interested in following:
        >
        >http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2011/01/22/the-riddles-of-the-fourth-gospel-an-introduction-to-john/
        >
        >/
        >
        >http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2011/01/22/a-guest-post-by-paul-anderson/
        >
        >/
        >
        > A review session is also being organized for the May meetings of the
        > Pacific
        > Northwest AAR/SBL/ASOR meetings in Spokane, so if any of you are
        > interested
        > in serving on the panel, do let me know (offline, please, at
        > panderso@...).
        >
        > b) Tom Thatcher led an excellent Colloquium discussion on the John, Jesus,
        > and History a few days ago, so you might follow up on that if you're
        > interested in the latest on that front. See also the website, managed by
        > Felix Just, posting the papers and abstracts over the last nine years if
        > interested.
        >
        >
        > http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2011/01/09/john-jesus-and-history/
        >
        > http://johannine.org/JJH-2010.html
        >
        > c) And, here are several other postings on *Bible and Interpretation*,
        > giving an update on the JJH Project as well as a Bi-Optic Hypothesis, my
        > dialogue with Marcus Borg, and an overlooked first-century clue to John's
        > authorhip.
        > http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/john1357917.shtml
        >
        > http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/fourth357921.shtml
        >
        > http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/mainz357911.shtml
        > http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/acts357920.shtml
        >
        > Take care,
        >
        > Paul Anderson
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
        > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messagesYahoo! Groups
        > Links
        >
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • John Ronning
        Ramsey, Thanks for the kind words. Dating the Targums is obviously a relevant issue and a stumbling block to many. The fact that all of the extant Targums
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 1, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Ramsey,

          Thanks for the kind words.

          Dating the Targums is obviously a relevant issue and a stumbling block to many.
          The fact that all of the extant Targums post-date John has to be considered.
          However, few would deny that there were Targums in use in the first century
          (various NT passages being the greatest evidence), and to put the Targums "out
          of bounds" for consideration as a background to the Logos theology, I would
          think one would have to assume the unprovable - that the 1st century Targums are
          not in the least bit reflected in the extant Targums.

          Take an example that does not involve the Word theology. The Psalms Targum
          interprets the "branches" of the vine in Psalm 80 as "disciples" (a nice example
          of the targumic practice of double translation - "branches" is translated first
          literally and then as disciples). It could not be proven that this
          interpretation was found in a first century Psalms Targum. But that is not why
          interpreters don't mention it in their discussion of the vine and branches in
          John 15. I would venture to say they don't mention it because they are ignorant
          of it.

          Another ex.: Ps-Jonathan Num 20:11 has an answer for why Moses struck the rock
          twice--the first time blood oozed out so he struck it again and water flowed
          abundantly. Tho Ps-J is late in its extant form, this could obviously reflect an
          early tradition and is of obvious potential relevance to John 19:34--John might
          have been struck by this fact and seen in it a message from God, that Jesus is
          what he said he was, the source of living water. True, this legend is found
          elsewhere (Ginzburg discusses variations of it), but is it not relevant to at
          least point out in a discussion of John 19:34? Does not the fact that it is
          overlooked, even tho Etheridge's English translation of Ps-J has been around for
          150 years, indicate a problem in Johannine scholarship? Such examples can be
          multiplied many-fold.

          Another dating issue: of relevance to the Logos title is whether the "Word
          theology" was current in the 1st century. Conceptual similarities to Philo's
          Logos (e.g. both Philo and the Pentateuchal Targums have the Word between the
          cherubim in the tabernacle), and to intertestamental wisdom literature (e.g. the
          divine Word healing the snake-bitten Israelites and destroying the Egyptian
          1st-born) and even the Tragedy of Ezekiel (Moses hears the voice of the Word at
          the burning bush) argue affirmatively, while absence of such theology in
          rabbinic Judaism would argue against late dating.

          Of special relevance is the dating of the use of Dibbera/Dibbura for the divine
          Word. This usage is much more isolated than the Memra but is very relevant to
          the question of Targumic background to the Logos title for two reasons: (1)
          while Memra is not used "aboslutely" (i.e. we find "the Word of the Lord," "my
          Word," etc. but not "the Word" as in John), Dibbera is used in this way: e.g. in
          the Palestinian Targums Israel heard the voice of "the Word" on Mt. Sinai, which
          is relevant to seeing the Word-become-flesh in the upper room as a new Sinai,
          making a new covenant, giving a new commandment, connecting love for him with
          obedience to his commands [just as in the 2nd commandment & elsewhere], etc; (2)
          a significant number of possible relations of Targum passages to John involve
          the use of Dibbera/Dibbura. E.g. John says the disciples saw his glory, full of
          grace and truth. Most agree that this is John's translation of rab xesed
          we'emet, "abounding in kindness and truth" from Exod 34:6 (i.e. it is how God
          describes himself to Moses). In the Palestinian Targums this revelation to Moses
          is a revelation of the Dibbura, the divine Word.

          In the previous chapter Moses set up a tent of meeting outside the camp, and
          those who would seek the Lord went there. Exodus Rabbah interprets this as
          evidence that God had excommunicated Israel after the worship of the golden
          calf, and that Moses followed his master outside the camp and regarded as
          excommunicated those whom God had excommunicated. Various Targum passages have
          the divine Word with Moses outside the camp, which is of potential relevance to
          the interpretation of John 12:26, where the Word-become-flesh says likewise
          those who would be his servants (as Moses was before the incarnation) must
          follow him to where he is going (which can't mean heaven but rather "outside the
          camp" - Jesus therefore announces his excommunication of Israel).

          It has been claimed that the use of Dibbura in this way dates only to the 3rd
          century and later, but besides the evidence from John, we have the fact that in
          Targum Jonathan of the Prophets, Dibbura is used only once, in Ezekiel 1, in the
          vision of the heavenly chariot. Levey ascribes the "Merkavah mysticism" used
          here to Rabbi Johanan ben Zakkai, who was a prominent rabbi from the 1st
          century. Since this is the only place in Jonathan that Dibbura is used, it
          stands to reason that Johanan is also the source of the Dibbura usage in Targum
          Ezekiel, meaning that Dibbura use was contemporary with John.

          If the Logos title comes from the Targums, then we can readily see that "the
          Word became flesh" is a unifying theme throughout the Gospel, as John shows
          Jesus doing the same kinds of things YHWH did in OT times, except now he does
          them as a man. Thus in the Gospel there are both human and divine parallels to
          the OT with Jesus as warrior, bridegroom of his people, lawgiver, etc.
          Interestingly, these themes are also found in Exodus 34, which as I mentioned
          above is where God reveals himself to Moses as "full of grace and truth." So
          when Jesus says, "it was about me that he [Moses] wrote," he is saying "Moses
          was my prophet; if you believe the prophet, you must believe whom he represented
          as prophet."

          Regards,

          John Ronning






          ________________________________
          From: Ramsey Michaels <profram@...>
          To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Mon, January 31, 2011 1:13:17 PM
          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum background to John's Logos title


          I appreciate John Ronning's comments about the targums. I have always been a bit
          cautious about the targums because of the difficulty of dating their origins.
          Moreover , it has seemed to me that the parallels more likely rest on a common
          use of certain key OT texts than on literary dependence one way or the other.
          Given the tendency within Judaism (and specifically in the targums) to avoid
          speaking of the Deity directly, but rather of his "word" or "name," or "glory,"
          or some other locution, parallels to the Gospel of John are not altogether
          surprising.


          However, I do agree with John that his book, along with certain others, remains
          a valuable supplement to most of the commentaries, including mine. We all need
          to be reminded of what we have overlooked either by accident or on purpose.


          Ramsey

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: John Ronning
          To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 12:16 PM
          Subject: [John_Lit] Targum background to John's Logos title

          Paul noted Jim West's review of Ramsey Michaels' new commentary on John. Jim
          also reviewed my book on John which came out a year ago:
          http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2010/03/30/the-jewish-targums-and-johns-logos-theology/


          This book amplifies on an article I mentioned on this list a few years ago: "The

          Targum of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" (WTJ, Fall of 2007). A number of
          members on this list expressed interest at the time, although not much
          discussion ensued.

          Although Ramsey's commentary is no doubt valuable in many respects, I was
          disappointed not only in a lack of discussion of the possibility of the Targum
          background (Aramaic Memra/Dibbera as divine Word), to the Logos title, but in
          the view that the Logos title was not as important as often deemed to be.
          Recognizing the Targum background does in fact lead to seeing Jesus as "the
          Word" throughout the Gospel. In this respect, Leon Morris' commentary was
          superior, since he allowed for the Targum background (as did Raymond Brown).
          Unfortunately, although both Morris and Brown wrote post-commentary books on
          John, neither evidently pursued this possibility.

          L:et me highlight just a few of many many examples:
          1. John 1:11-12: both the idea of receiving/not receiving the divine Word, as
          well as believing/not believing in the name of the divine Word are common in the

          Targums. Sometimes they are found close together, e.g. Deut 9:23 (I give Targum
          renderings in brackets): "You neither believed him [Neofiti: you did not believe

          in the holy name of the Word of the Lord] nor listened to his voice [Onqelos and

          Ps-Jonathan: you did not receive his Word]." "Receive my Word" is also found as
          a rendering for other expressions such as "come to me" (Isa 55:1-3), an
          invitation which Jesus gave repeatedly, with evident dependence on Isa 55:1-3.

          2. John 12:37--though he had performed so many signs before them, they were not
          believing in him. This is an evident paraphrase of Num 14:11--How long will they

          not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have done in their midst? In the
          Targums it is "how long will they not believe in my Word" (Neofiti, "in the name

          of my Word" - see again John 1:12).

          3. John 12:41--these things Isaiah said [John has just quoted Isaiah 6] because
          he saw his glory. Burney pointed out long ago that in the Isaiah Targum, Isaiah
          sees the glory of the Shekinah of the Lord and hears the Word of the Lord speak
          to him. In addition to that, Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 "lifts" a phrase from Isa
          6:1 suggesting how a more "Palestinian" Targum of Isaiah might have read in the
          time of John: "the Word of the Lord sits upon his throne, high and lifted up,
          and hears our prayers."

          4. We can also see the repeated divine "I am he" sayings of Jesus (e.g. those
          dependent on Deut 32:39, Isa 43:10, 13, and 52:6) as complementing the Logos
          title, once we see that a Targum background implies "the Word" = the name of
          God. The two come together in Neofiti and Frag. Tg. V Deut 32:39: "I, in my
          Word, am he."

          Hopefully the time will come when all of this material will be given due
          consideration. Until then, my book is a necessary supplement to the
          commentaries. Yes I know that sounds like self-interest, but I also think it's
          true and of major importance for Johannine studies.

          Regards,

          John Ronning

          ________________________________
          From: Paul Anderson <panderso@...>
          To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sun, January 23, 2011 11:52:48 AM
          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Riddles, etc.

          Wonderful, Ramsey, excellent discussions of your fine work!

          Would you care to share with us how you approached your commentary and how
          it might follow and depart from Morris's commentary? For instance, how did
          you approach composition, setting, audience(s), literary, and historical
          issues, etc?

          I'm sure this will be a "must-have" in all serious Johannine libraries;
          thanks for your invaluable service to readers of John internationally!

          Paul

          On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 5:26 AM, Ramsey Michaels <profram@...>wrote:

          > Hi Everyone,
          >
          > Since Paul has set a precedent, here is a link to Jim West's review of my
          > new NICNT Commentary on the Gospel of John:
          >
          >
          >http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2010/10/28/the-gospel-of-john-the-new-international-commentary-on-the-new-testament/
          >
          >/
          >
          >
          > Also, in case you haven't seen it, a link to Matthew Montonini's three-part
          > interview with me about the Commentary on his New Testament Perspectives:
          >
          >
          >http://newtestamentperspectives.blogspot.com/2010/10/j-ramsey-michaels-interview-part-iii.html
          >
          >l
          >
          > Best wishes to all,
          >
          > Ramsey Michaels
          > Portsmouth, New Hampshire
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Paul Anderson
          > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 10:02 PM
          > Subject: [John_Lit] Riddles, etc.
          >
          >
          >
          > Dear fellow Johannine scholars,
          >
          > Here are a few things that might be of interest:
          >
          > a) My new introduction to John, *The Riddles of the Fourth Gospel*
          > (Fortress
          > Press, forthcoming) is being previewed by Jim West on the Zwingli website
          > in
          > case any are interested in following:
          >
          >http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2011/01/22/the-riddles-of-the-fourth-gospel-an-introduction-to-john/
          >
          >/
          >
          >http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2011/01/22/a-guest-post-by-paul-anderson/
          >
          >/
          >
          > A review session is also being organized for the May meetings of the
          > Pacific
          > Northwest AAR/SBL/ASOR meetings in Spokane, so if any of you are
          > interested
          > in serving on the panel, do let me know (offline, please, at
          > panderso@...).
          >
          > b) Tom Thatcher led an excellent Colloquium discussion on the John, Jesus,
          > and History a few days ago, so you might follow up on that if you're
          > interested in the latest on that front. See also the website, managed by
          > Felix Just, posting the papers and abstracts over the last nine years if
          > interested.
          >
          >
          > http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2011/01/09/john-jesus-and-history/
          >
          > http://johannine.org/JJH-2010.html
          >
          > c) And, here are several other postings on *Bible and Interpretation*,
          > giving an update on the JJH Project as well as a Bi-Optic Hypothesis, my
          > dialogue with Marcus Borg, and an overlooked first-century clue to John's
          > authorhip.
          > http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/john1357917.shtml
          >
          > http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/fourth357921.shtml
          >
          > http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/mainz357911.shtml
          > http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/acts357920.shtml
          >
          > Take care,
          >
          > Paul Anderson
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
          > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messagesYahoo! Groups
          > Links
          >
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jack Kilmon
          ... From: John Ronning Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 10:40 AM To: Subject: Re: [John_Lit]
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 1, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            --------------------------------------------------
            From: "John Ronning" <jronning@...>
            Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 10:40 AM
            To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum background to John's Logos title

            >
            > Take an example that does not involve the Word theology. The Psalms Targum
            > interprets the "branches" of the vine in Psalm 80 as "disciples" (a nice
            > example
            > of the targumic practice of double translation - "branches" is translated
            > first
            > literally and then as disciples). It could not be proven that this
            > interpretation was found in a first century Psalms Targum. But that is not
            > why
            > interpreters don't mention it in their discussion of the vine and branches
            > in
            > John 15. I would venture to say they don't mention it because they are
            > ignorant
            > of it.


            Here is the Hebrew of Psalm 80:10:
            כָּסּוּ הָרִים צִלָּהּ וַעֲנָפֶיהָ אַֽרְזֵי־אֵֽל׃


            And the Targum Aram,aic:
            פניתא מן־קדמיהון כנענאי ושׁרשׁתא שׁורשׁיהון ומלאת ארעא׃11 חפיין טוריא
            דירושׁלם טול בית מקדשׁא ובתי מדרשׁיא רבנין אמרין אלימין דמתילין לארזין
            תקיפין׃
            שׁבישׁת שׁבשׁין שׁדרת תלמידהא עד ימא רבא ולנהר פרת יניקהא׃

            Where in the last line above we see "Branches" interpreted as talmydaha
            (disciples).

            Lets now move to Isaiah 11:1

            וְיָצָא חֹטֶר מִגֵּזַע יִשָׁי וְנֵצֶר מִשָּׁרָשָׁיו יִפְרֶֽה׃

            And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch
            shall grow out of his roots:

            .......where the נצר "netser" (branch) of Jesse Ιεσσαι gave rise to both
            the Netseraya/Ναζωραῖος/Nazarenes and the Yeeshaya/IESSAIAOI/Jesseans and I
            find this in Epiphanius Panarion 29 5.1-4 "For a short time they were given
            the name Iessaians before the disciples in Antioch began to be called
            Christians (this was around 60 CE Acts 11:26 jk ) and they were called
            Iessaians because of Jesse, it seems to me, since David was from Jesse." So
            the Nazarenes were equated with the Jessians making the case that both of
            these designations, had the same origin in Isaiah. Also Nilus, Bishop of
            Ancyra, in "de monastica exercitatione, 3 This connection is also made by E.
            A. Abbott "The Beginning" (Vol 2) in "The Fourfold Gospel" (Cambridge 1914)
            p. 318. I accept it since it is the most logical connection and Ναζωραῖος
            perfectly fits the Greek transliteration with the addition of the noun
            ending. If a group was founded by someone considered by his followers as
            the "Netser of Jesse," I can see them being called the "branchers"
            (Netseraya/Nazarenes) and "Jessians" (Yeeshaya/Iessaioi).

            This "root" and "branch" formula is used in both Psalms and Isaiah.

            Jack

            Jack Kilmon
            San Antonio, TX
          • Ramsey Michaels
            John, Thank you for some examples of using Targums to interpret NT texts. First, as you can tell, my commentary does little with background in general, so my
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 2, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              John,

              Thank you for some examples of using Targums to interpret NT texts. First, as you can tell, my commentary does little with "background" in general, so my neglect of Targums is perhaps not surprising. In equal opportunity fashion, I neglect Wisdom background, Philonic background, etc. as well, and will probably be duly reprimanded for that. I just think enough has been written in some of those areas. The evidence is what it is, and most people have firmly made up their minds as to what is relevant and what it not. I have concentrated instead on narrative criticism and the present form of the text.

              My friend Craig Keener, by contrast, deals extensively with backgrounds (a massive understatement), and in his index has cited all kinds of Targums. Yet in speaking about Targums in relation to the Logos in John, he is surprisingly dismissive. You might check out what he does do with them in various places. I suspect that in most cases he does little more than list references -- which I fear no one will look up. And you are right, I suspect, in saying that the reason many do not take account of certain parallels is that they are simply ignorant of them -- present company not excluded!

              A couple of comments, however. In admitting "various New Testament passages" as themselves the "greatest evidence" of the use of Targums in the first century, you are risking a certain circularity. Is it not even possible that some NT metaphors arising in a setting in which the "Christian" movement was still part of Judaism may actually have been preserved within Judaism and found their way into the Targums -- that is, that the influence could have been in the opposite direction? While I am not ready to propose such a thing, I'm not ready to rule it out either.

              Your two examples where the rubber meets the road are John 19:34 and 12:26. I don't find either one persuasive, the second less so than the first. It seems unquestionable that in 12:26 Jesus is going, if not to heaven, at least to the Father (as we learn in chapters 14-16), not merely "outside the camp," and he is certainly not excommunicating Israel -- tho he does excommunicate the devil five verses later! Your Targum may have more of a bearing on Hebrews 13:9-10. In 19:34 Jesus' side is pierced once, not twice, and there is plenty of material within the Gospel (chapter 6 for example, and 7:37-38) to go on, without appealing to Ps-Jonathan.

              Still, the concrete examples are what we need. As the Germans say, "Was kommt heraus?" What is the actual exegetical yield? I'm keeping an open mind.

              Ramsey




              ----- Original Message -----
              From: John Ronning
              To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 11:40 AM
              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum background to John's Logos title



              Ramsey,

              Thanks for the kind words.

              Dating the Targums is obviously a relevant issue and a stumbling block to many.
              The fact that all of the extant Targums post-date John has to be considered.
              However, few would deny that there were Targums in use in the first century
              (various NT passages being the greatest evidence), and to put the Targums "out
              of bounds" for consideration as a background to the Logos theology, I would
              think one would have to assume the unprovable - that the 1st century Targums are
              not in the least bit reflected in the extant Targums.

              Take an example that does not involve the Word theology. The Psalms Targum
              interprets the "branches" of the vine in Psalm 80 as "disciples" (a nice example
              of the targumic practice of double translation - "branches" is translated first
              literally and then as disciples). It could not be proven that this
              interpretation was found in a first century Psalms Targum. But that is not why
              interpreters don't mention it in their discussion of the vine and branches in
              John 15. I would venture to say they don't mention it because they are ignorant
              of it.

              Another ex.: Ps-Jonathan Num 20:11 has an answer for why Moses struck the rock
              twice--the first time blood oozed out so he struck it again and water flowed
              abundantly. Tho Ps-J is late in its extant form, this could obviously reflect an
              early tradition and is of obvious potential relevance to John 19:34--John might
              have been struck by this fact and seen in it a message from God, that Jesus is
              what he said he was, the source of living water. True, this legend is found
              elsewhere (Ginzburg discusses variations of it), but is it not relevant to at
              least point out in a discussion of John 19:34? Does not the fact that it is
              overlooked, even tho Etheridge's English translation of Ps-J has been around for
              150 years, indicate a problem in Johannine scholarship? Such examples can be
              multiplied many-fold.

              Another dating issue: of relevance to the Logos title is whether the "Word
              theology" was current in the 1st century. Conceptual similarities to Philo's
              Logos (e.g. both Philo and the Pentateuchal Targums have the Word between the
              cherubim in the tabernacle), and to intertestamental wisdom literature (e.g. the
              divine Word healing the snake-bitten Israelites and destroying the Egyptian
              1st-born) and even the Tragedy of Ezekiel (Moses hears the voice of the Word at
              the burning bush) argue affirmatively, while absence of such theology in
              rabbinic Judaism would argue against late dating.

              Of special relevance is the dating of the use of Dibbera/Dibbura for the divine
              Word. This usage is much more isolated than the Memra but is very relevant to
              the question of Targumic background to the Logos title for two reasons: (1)
              while Memra is not used "aboslutely" (i.e. we find "the Word of the Lord," "my
              Word," etc. but not "the Word" as in John), Dibbera is used in this way: e.g. in
              the Palestinian Targums Israel heard the voice of "the Word" on Mt. Sinai, which
              is relevant to seeing the Word-become-flesh in the upper room as a new Sinai,
              making a new covenant, giving a new commandment, connecting love for him with
              obedience to his commands [just as in the 2nd commandment & elsewhere], etc; (2)
              a significant number of possible relations of Targum passages to John involve
              the use of Dibbera/Dibbura. E.g. John says the disciples saw his glory, full of
              grace and truth. Most agree that this is John's translation of rab xesed
              we'emet, "abounding in kindness and truth" from Exod 34:6 (i.e. it is how God
              describes himself to Moses). In the Palestinian Targums this revelation to Moses
              is a revelation of the Dibbura, the divine Word.

              In the previous chapter Moses set up a tent of meeting outside the camp, and
              those who would seek the Lord went there. Exodus Rabbah interprets this as
              evidence that God had excommunicated Israel after the worship of the golden
              calf, and that Moses followed his master outside the camp and regarded as
              excommunicated those whom God had excommunicated. Various Targum passages have
              the divine Word with Moses outside the camp, which is of potential relevance to
              the interpretation of John 12:26, where the Word-become-flesh says likewise
              those who would be his servants (as Moses was before the incarnation) must
              follow him to where he is going (which can't mean heaven but rather "outside the
              camp" - Jesus therefore announces his excommunication of Israel).

              It has been claimed that the use of Dibbura in this way dates only to the 3rd
              century and later, but besides the evidence from John, we have the fact that in
              Targum Jonathan of the Prophets, Dibbura is used only once, in Ezekiel 1, in the
              vision of the heavenly chariot. Levey ascribes the "Merkavah mysticism" used
              here to Rabbi Johanan ben Zakkai, who was a prominent rabbi from the 1st
              century. Since this is the only place in Jonathan that Dibbura is used, it
              stands to reason that Johanan is also the source of the Dibbura usage in Targum
              Ezekiel, meaning that Dibbura use was contemporary with John.

              If the Logos title comes from the Targums, then we can readily see that "the
              Word became flesh" is a unifying theme throughout the Gospel, as John shows
              Jesus doing the same kinds of things YHWH did in OT times, except now he does
              them as a man. Thus in the Gospel there are both human and divine parallels to
              the OT with Jesus as warrior, bridegroom of his people, lawgiver, etc.
              Interestingly, these themes are also found in Exodus 34, which as I mentioned
              above is where God reveals himself to Moses as "full of grace and truth." So
              when Jesus says, "it was about me that he [Moses] wrote," he is saying "Moses
              was my prophet; if you believe the prophet, you must believe whom he represented
              as prophet."

              Regards,

              John Ronning

              ________________________________
              From: Ramsey Michaels <profram@...>
              To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, January 31, 2011 1:13:17 PM
              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum background to John's Logos title

              I appreciate John Ronning's comments about the targums. I have always been a bit
              cautious about the targums because of the difficulty of dating their origins.
              Moreover , it has seemed to me that the parallels more likely rest on a common
              use of certain key OT texts than on literary dependence one way or the other.
              Given the tendency within Judaism (and specifically in the targums) to avoid
              speaking of the Deity directly, but rather of his "word" or "name," or "glory,"
              or some other locution, parallels to the Gospel of John are not altogether
              surprising.

              However, I do agree with John that his book, along with certain others, remains
              a valuable supplement to most of the commentaries, including mine. We all need
              to be reminded of what we have overlooked either by accident or on purpose.

              Ramsey

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: John Ronning
              To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 12:16 PM
              Subject: [John_Lit] Targum background to John's Logos title

              Paul noted Jim West's review of Ramsey Michaels' new commentary on John. Jim
              also reviewed my book on John which came out a year ago:
              http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2010/03/30/the-jewish-targums-and-johns-logos-theology/


              This book amplifies on an article I mentioned on this list a few years ago: "The

              Targum of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" (WTJ, Fall of 2007). A number of
              members on this list expressed interest at the time, although not much
              discussion ensued.

              Although Ramsey's commentary is no doubt valuable in many respects, I was
              disappointed not only in a lack of discussion of the possibility of the Targum
              background (Aramaic Memra/Dibbera as divine Word), to the Logos title, but in
              the view that the Logos title was not as important as often deemed to be.
              Recognizing the Targum background does in fact lead to seeing Jesus as "the
              Word" throughout the Gospel. In this respect, Leon Morris' commentary was
              superior, since he allowed for the Targum background (as did Raymond Brown).
              Unfortunately, although both Morris and Brown wrote post-commentary books on
              John, neither evidently pursued this possibility.

              L:et me highlight just a few of many many examples:
              1. John 1:11-12: both the idea of receiving/not receiving the divine Word, as
              well as believing/not believing in the name of the divine Word are common in the

              Targums. Sometimes they are found close together, e.g. Deut 9:23 (I give Targum
              renderings in brackets): "You neither believed him [Neofiti: you did not believe

              in the holy name of the Word of the Lord] nor listened to his voice [Onqelos and

              Ps-Jonathan: you did not receive his Word]." "Receive my Word" is also found as
              a rendering for other expressions such as "come to me" (Isa 55:1-3), an
              invitation which Jesus gave repeatedly, with evident dependence on Isa 55:1-3.

              2. John 12:37--though he had performed so many signs before them, they were not
              believing in him. This is an evident paraphrase of Num 14:11--How long will they

              not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have done in their midst? In the
              Targums it is "how long will they not believe in my Word" (Neofiti, "in the name

              of my Word" - see again John 1:12).

              3. John 12:41--these things Isaiah said [John has just quoted Isaiah 6] because
              he saw his glory. Burney pointed out long ago that in the Isaiah Targum, Isaiah
              sees the glory of the Shekinah of the Lord and hears the Word of the Lord speak
              to him. In addition to that, Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 "lifts" a phrase from Isa
              6:1 suggesting how a more "Palestinian" Targum of Isaiah might have read in the
              time of John: "the Word of the Lord sits upon his throne, high and lifted up,
              and hears our prayers."

              4. We can also see the repeated divine "I am he" sayings of Jesus (e.g. those
              dependent on Deut 32:39, Isa 43:10, 13, and 52:6) as complementing the Logos
              title, once we see that a Targum background implies "the Word" = the name of
              God. The two come together in Neofiti and Frag. Tg. V Deut 32:39: "I, in my
              Word, am he."

              Hopefully the time will come when all of this material will be given due
              consideration. Until then, my book is a necessary supplement to the
              commentaries. Yes I know that sounds like self-interest, but I also think it's
              true and of major importance for Johannine studies.

              Regards,

              John Ronning

              ________________________________
              From: Paul Anderson <panderso@...>
              To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, January 23, 2011 11:52:48 AM
              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Riddles, etc.

              Wonderful, Ramsey, excellent discussions of your fine work!

              Would you care to share with us how you approached your commentary and how
              it might follow and depart from Morris's commentary? For instance, how did
              you approach composition, setting, audience(s), literary, and historical
              issues, etc?

              I'm sure this will be a "must-have" in all serious Johannine libraries;
              thanks for your invaluable service to readers of John internationally!

              Paul

              On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 5:26 AM, Ramsey Michaels <profram@...>wrote:

              > Hi Everyone,
              >
              > Since Paul has set a precedent, here is a link to Jim West's review of my
              > new NICNT Commentary on the Gospel of John:
              >
              >
              >http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2010/10/28/the-gospel-of-john-the-new-international-commentary-on-the-new-testament/
              >
              >/
              >
              >
              > Also, in case you haven't seen it, a link to Matthew Montonini's three-part
              > interview with me about the Commentary on his New Testament Perspectives:
              >
              >
              >http://newtestamentperspectives.blogspot.com/2010/10/j-ramsey-michaels-interview-part-iii.html
              >
              >l
              >
              > Best wishes to all,
              >
              > Ramsey Michaels
              > Portsmouth, New Hampshire
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Paul Anderson
              > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 10:02 PM
              > Subject: [John_Lit] Riddles, etc.
              >
              >
              >
              > Dear fellow Johannine scholars,
              >
              > Here are a few things that might be of interest:
              >
              > a) My new introduction to John, *The Riddles of the Fourth Gospel*
              > (Fortress
              > Press, forthcoming) is being previewed by Jim West on the Zwingli website
              > in
              > case any are interested in following:
              >
              >http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2011/01/22/the-riddles-of-the-fourth-gospel-an-introduction-to-john/
              >
              >/
              >
              >http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2011/01/22/a-guest-post-by-paul-anderson/
              >
              >/
              >
              > A review session is also being organized for the May meetings of the
              > Pacific
              > Northwest AAR/SBL/ASOR meetings in Spokane, so if any of you are
              > interested
              > in serving on the panel, do let me know (offline, please, at
              > panderso@...).
              >
              > b) Tom Thatcher led an excellent Colloquium discussion on the John, Jesus,
              > and History a few days ago, so you might follow up on that if you're
              > interested in the latest on that front. See also the website, managed by
              > Felix Just, posting the papers and abstracts over the last nine years if
              > interested.
              >
              >
              > http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2011/01/09/john-jesus-and-history/
              >
              > http://johannine.org/JJH-2010.html
              >
              > c) And, here are several other postings on *Bible and Interpretation*,
              > giving an update on the JJH Project as well as a Bi-Optic Hypothesis, my
              > dialogue with Marcus Borg, and an overlooked first-century clue to John's
              > authorhip.
              > http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/john1357917.shtml
              >
              > http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/fourth357921.shtml
              >
              > http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/mainz357911.shtml
              > http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/acts357920.shtml
              >
              > Take care,
              >
              > Paul Anderson
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
              > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messagesYahoo! Groups
              > Links
              >
              >
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John Ronning
              Ramsey, On circularity - with respect to the Word theology, I presume you re not saying that the Targum Word theology could have come from Christian influence
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 2, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                Ramsey,

                On circularity - with respect to the Word theology, I presume you're not saying
                that the Targum Word theology could have come from Christian influence (the idea
                of the Word becoming flesh goes against the kind of thinking that seems to be
                behind the Word theology; i.e. keeping God transcendent, not imminent). With
                respect to examples like the branches as disciples in Tg. Psalm 80 - yes it's
                possible that 1st century Jewish thinking as reflected in the vine and branches
                discourse later influenced the Psalms Targum. My main point in an example such
                as this is to point out possibilities. In this case, many commentators point to
                Psalm 80 as important OT background for John 15; others (such as Keener) are
                dubious. I think the Psalms Targum adds weight to the view that Ps 80 is an
                important background (among many), though of course it is not proof. When such
                examples can be multiplied many fold, then I think the overall readiness to see
                a Targum background as a possibility should increase.

                With respect to John 12:26 - yes Jesus is going to the right hand of the Father,
                in heaven (where Stephen sees him); the difficulty of course is in what he means
                by saying that his followers must be where he is - he's not talking about our
                eternal destiny, but about how we serve him on earth. So where do we "go" to
                follow him now? I think you are correct to say we could answer "outside the
                camp" from Hebrews 13, what I am saying is that this answer is suggested by John
                12:26 itself.

                I should have made my case better/clearer. Besides the suggested background of
                the Exodus Rabbah interpretation of Exodus 33 (Moses followed the Lord outside
                the camp, where Israel must now seek the Lord after the golden calf incident),
                there is John 7:34, 36; "You will seek me, and you will not find me." This also
                fits in with Jewish interpretation of the golden calf incident, seen in the
                Targum of the Song of Solomon, which interprets the bride's statement "I sought
                him but did not find him" of the golden calf incident: "'Let us request
                instruction from the Lord and the holy Shekinah which has been removed from us.'
                Then they went around in the towns, streets, and squares, but they did not find
                it" (Tg. Song 3:2). The similar statement in 5:6 is related to Israel
                seeking/not finding the Shekinah at the time of the Babylonian exile. It would
                not be difficult for Jewish Christians to see a parallel after the Roman
                conquest (one reason I'm not inclined to date John early). While I don't think
                much of this as interpretation of the Song of Solomon, what is significant is
                what it says about Jewish interpretation of the golden calf incident.

                In short, if one interprets "You will seek me but you will not find me" as
                divine speech (notice how John draws attention to its importance by recording
                the crowd's question about it in v. 36), then there is much relevant OT
                background, such as Deut 4 where Moses tells Israel that if they seek the Lord
                from exile (the situation when John is writing, according to the usual dating of
                John), they will find him IF they search for him with all of their hearts. A
                corollary to that requirement comes from Exodus 33, after Israel's great sin:
                they must seek him outside the camp (i.e. they must follow where he went, and
                where Moses conversed with the divine Word before his incarnation). In the first
                century, that means they must seek him in the Christian church (Matt 18:20;
                where 2 or 3 gather in my name, there I am - similar to what the Mishnah and
                Talmud say about the Shekinah). So, in my view John 12:26 makes perfect sense
                with the idea that in returning to the Father Jesus is going "outside the camp."

                John





                ________________________________
                From: Ramsey Michaels <profram@...>
                To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wed, February 2, 2011 11:28:41 AM
                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum background to John's Logos title


                John,

                Thank you for some examples of using Targums to interpret NT texts. First, as
                you can tell, my commentary does little with "background" in general, so my
                neglect of Targums is perhaps not surprising. In equal opportunity fashion, I
                neglect Wisdom background, Philonic background, etc. as well, and will probably
                be duly reprimanded for that. I just think enough has been written in some of
                those areas. The evidence is what it is, and most people have firmly made up
                their minds as to what is relevant and what it not. I have concentrated instead
                on narrative criticism and the present form of the text.

                My friend Craig Keener, by contrast, deals extensively with backgrounds (a
                massive understatement), and in his index has cited all kinds of Targums. Yet in
                speaking about Targums in relation to the Logos in John, he is surprisingly
                dismissive. You might check out what he does do with them in various places. I
                suspect that in most cases he does little more than list references -- which I
                fear no one will look up. And you are right, I suspect, in saying that the
                reason many do not take account of certain parallels is that they are simply
                ignorant of them -- present company not excluded!

                A couple of comments, however. In admitting "various New Testament passages" as
                themselves the "greatest evidence" of the use of Targums in the first century,
                you are risking a certain circularity. Is it not even possible that some NT
                metaphors arising in a setting in which the "Christian" movement was still part
                of Judaism may actually have been preserved within Judaism and found their way
                into the Targums -- that is, that the influence could have been in the opposite
                direction? While I am not ready to propose such a thing, I'm not ready to rule
                it out either.

                Your two examples where the rubber meets the road are John 19:34 and 12:26. I
                don't find either one persuasive, the second less so than the first. It seems
                unquestionable that in 12:26 Jesus is going, if not to heaven, at least to the
                Father (as we learn in chapters 14-16), not merely "outside the camp," and he is
                certainly not excommunicating Israel -- tho he does excommunicate the devil five
                verses later! Your Targum may have more of a bearing on Hebrews 13:9-10. In
                19:34 Jesus' side is pierced once, not twice, and there is plenty of material
                within the Gospel (chapter 6 for example, and 7:37-38) to go on, without
                appealing to Ps-Jonathan.

                Still, the concrete examples are what we need. As the Germans say, "Was kommt
                heraus?" What is the actual exegetical yield? I'm keeping an open mind.

                Ramsey

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: John Ronning
                To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 11:40 AM
                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum background to John's Logos title

                Ramsey,

                Thanks for the kind words.

                Dating the Targums is obviously a relevant issue and a stumbling block to many.
                The fact that all of the extant Targums post-date John has to be considered.
                However, few would deny that there were Targums in use in the first century
                (various NT passages being the greatest evidence), and to put the Targums "out
                of bounds" for consideration as a background to the Logos theology, I would
                think one would have to assume the unprovable - that the 1st century Targums are

                not in the least bit reflected in the extant Targums.

                Take an example that does not involve the Word theology. The Psalms Targum
                interprets the "branches" of the vine in Psalm 80 as "disciples" (a nice example

                of the targumic practice of double translation - "branches" is translated first
                literally and then as disciples). It could not be proven that this
                interpretation was found in a first century Psalms Targum. But that is not why
                interpreters don't mention it in their discussion of the vine and branches in
                John 15. I would venture to say they don't mention it because they are ignorant
                of it.

                Another ex.: Ps-Jonathan Num 20:11 has an answer for why Moses struck the rock
                twice--the first time blood oozed out so he struck it again and water flowed
                abundantly. Tho Ps-J is late in its extant form, this could obviously reflect an

                early tradition and is of obvious potential relevance to John 19:34--John might
                have been struck by this fact and seen in it a message from God, that Jesus is
                what he said he was, the source of living water. True, this legend is found
                elsewhere (Ginzburg discusses variations of it), but is it not relevant to at
                least point out in a discussion of John 19:34? Does not the fact that it is
                overlooked, even tho Etheridge's English translation of Ps-J has been around for

                150 years, indicate a problem in Johannine scholarship? Such examples can be
                multiplied many-fold.

                Another dating issue: of relevance to the Logos title is whether the "Word
                theology" was current in the 1st century. Conceptual similarities to Philo's
                Logos (e.g. both Philo and the Pentateuchal Targums have the Word between the
                cherubim in the tabernacle), and to intertestamental wisdom literature (e.g. the

                divine Word healing the snake-bitten Israelites and destroying the Egyptian
                1st-born) and even the Tragedy of Ezekiel (Moses hears the voice of the Word at
                the burning bush) argue affirmatively, while absence of such theology in
                rabbinic Judaism would argue against late dating.

                Of special relevance is the dating of the use of Dibbera/Dibbura for the divine
                Word. This usage is much more isolated than the Memra but is very relevant to
                the question of Targumic background to the Logos title for two reasons: (1)
                while Memra is not used "aboslutely" (i.e. we find "the Word of the Lord," "my
                Word," etc. but not "the Word" as in John), Dibbera is used in this way: e.g. in

                the Palestinian Targums Israel heard the voice of "the Word" on Mt. Sinai, which

                is relevant to seeing the Word-become-flesh in the upper room as a new Sinai,
                making a new covenant, giving a new commandment, connecting love for him with
                obedience to his commands [just as in the 2nd commandment & elsewhere], etc; (2)

                a significant number of possible relations of Targum passages to John involve
                the use of Dibbera/Dibbura. E.g. John says the disciples saw his glory, full of
                grace and truth. Most agree that this is John's translation of rab xesed
                we'emet, "abounding in kindness and truth" from Exod 34:6 (i.e. it is how God
                describes himself to Moses). In the Palestinian Targums this revelation to Moses

                is a revelation of the Dibbura, the divine Word.

                In the previous chapter Moses set up a tent of meeting outside the camp, and
                those who would seek the Lord went there. Exodus Rabbah interprets this as
                evidence that God had excommunicated Israel after the worship of the golden
                calf, and that Moses followed his master outside the camp and regarded as
                excommunicated those whom God had excommunicated. Various Targum passages have
                the divine Word with Moses outside the camp, which is of potential relevance to
                the interpretation of John 12:26, where the Word-become-flesh says likewise
                those who would be his servants (as Moses was before the incarnation) must
                follow him to where he is going (which can't mean heaven but rather "outside the

                camp" - Jesus therefore announces his excommunication of Israel).

                It has been claimed that the use of Dibbura in this way dates only to the 3rd
                century and later, but besides the evidence from John, we have the fact that in
                Targum Jonathan of the Prophets, Dibbura is used only once, in Ezekiel 1, in the

                vision of the heavenly chariot. Levey ascribes the "Merkavah mysticism" used
                here to Rabbi Johanan ben Zakkai, who was a prominent rabbi from the 1st
                century. Since this is the only place in Jonathan that Dibbura is used, it
                stands to reason that Johanan is also the source of the Dibbura usage in Targum
                Ezekiel, meaning that Dibbura use was contemporary with John.

                If the Logos title comes from the Targums, then we can readily see that "the
                Word became flesh" is a unifying theme throughout the Gospel, as John shows
                Jesus doing the same kinds of things YHWH did in OT times, except now he does
                them as a man. Thus in the Gospel there are both human and divine parallels to
                the OT with Jesus as warrior, bridegroom of his people, lawgiver, etc.
                Interestingly, these themes are also found in Exodus 34, which as I mentioned
                above is where God reveals himself to Moses as "full of grace and truth." So
                when Jesus says, "it was about me that he [Moses] wrote," he is saying "Moses
                was my prophet; if you believe the prophet, you must believe whom he represented

                as prophet."

                Regards,

                John Ronning

                ________________________________
                From: Ramsey Michaels <profram@...>
                To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Mon, January 31, 2011 1:13:17 PM
                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum background to John's Logos title

                I appreciate John Ronning's comments about the targums. I have always been a bit

                cautious about the targums because of the difficulty of dating their origins.
                Moreover , it has seemed to me that the parallels more likely rest on a common
                use of certain key OT texts than on literary dependence one way or the other.
                Given the tendency within Judaism (and specifically in the targums) to avoid
                speaking of the Deity directly, but rather of his "word" or "name," or "glory,"
                or some other locution, parallels to the Gospel of John are not altogether
                surprising.

                However, I do agree with John that his book, along with certain others, remains
                a valuable supplement to most of the commentaries, including mine. We all need
                to be reminded of what we have overlooked either by accident or on purpose.

                Ramsey

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: John Ronning
                To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 12:16 PM
                Subject: [John_Lit] Targum background to John's Logos title

                Paul noted Jim West's review of Ramsey Michaels' new commentary on John. Jim
                also reviewed my book on John which came out a year ago:
                http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2010/03/30/the-jewish-targums-and-johns-logos-theology/


                This book amplifies on an article I mentioned on this list a few years ago: "The


                Targum of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" (WTJ, Fall of 2007). A number of
                members on this list expressed interest at the time, although not much
                discussion ensued.

                Although Ramsey's commentary is no doubt valuable in many respects, I was
                disappointed not only in a lack of discussion of the possibility of the Targum
                background (Aramaic Memra/Dibbera as divine Word), to the Logos title, but in
                the view that the Logos title was not as important as often deemed to be.
                Recognizing the Targum background does in fact lead to seeing Jesus as "the
                Word" throughout the Gospel. In this respect, Leon Morris' commentary was
                superior, since he allowed for the Targum background (as did Raymond Brown).
                Unfortunately, although both Morris and Brown wrote post-commentary books on
                John, neither evidently pursued this possibility.

                L:et me highlight just a few of many many examples:
                1. John 1:11-12: both the idea of receiving/not receiving the divine Word, as
                well as believing/not believing in the name of the divine Word are common in the


                Targums. Sometimes they are found close together, e.g. Deut 9:23 (I give Targum
                renderings in brackets): "You neither believed him [Neofiti: you did not believe


                in the holy name of the Word of the Lord] nor listened to his voice [Onqelos and


                Ps-Jonathan: you did not receive his Word]." "Receive my Word" is also found as
                a rendering for other expressions such as "come to me" (Isa 55:1-3), an
                invitation which Jesus gave repeatedly, with evident dependence on Isa 55:1-3.

                2. John 12:37--though he had performed so many signs before them, they were not
                believing in him. This is an evident paraphrase of Num 14:11--How long will they


                not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have done in their midst? In the
                Targums it is "how long will they not believe in my Word" (Neofiti, "in the name


                of my Word" - see again John 1:12).

                3. John 12:41--these things Isaiah said [John has just quoted Isaiah 6] because
                he saw his glory. Burney pointed out long ago that in the Isaiah Targum, Isaiah
                sees the glory of the Shekinah of the Lord and hears the Word of the Lord speak
                to him. In addition to that, Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 "lifts" a phrase from Isa
                6:1 suggesting how a more "Palestinian" Targum of Isaiah might have read in the
                time of John: "the Word of the Lord sits upon his throne, high and lifted up,
                and hears our prayers."

                4. We can also see the repeated divine "I am he" sayings of Jesus (e.g. those
                dependent on Deut 32:39, Isa 43:10, 13, and 52:6) as complementing the Logos
                title, once we see that a Targum background implies "the Word" = the name of
                God. The two come together in Neofiti and Frag. Tg. V Deut 32:39: "I, in my
                Word, am he."

                Hopefully the time will come when all of this material will be given due
                consideration. Until then, my book is a necessary supplement to the
                commentaries. Yes I know that sounds like self-interest, but I also think it's
                true and of major importance for Johannine studies.

                Regards,

                John Ronning

                ________________________________
                From: Paul Anderson <panderso@...>
                To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sun, January 23, 2011 11:52:48 AM
                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Riddles, etc.

                Wonderful, Ramsey, excellent discussions of your fine work!

                Would you care to share with us how you approached your commentary and how
                it might follow and depart from Morris's commentary? For instance, how did
                you approach composition, setting, audience(s), literary, and historical
                issues, etc?

                I'm sure this will be a "must-have" in all serious Johannine libraries;
                thanks for your invaluable service to readers of John internationally!

                Paul

                On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 5:26 AM, Ramsey Michaels <profram@...>wrote:

                > Hi Everyone,
                >
                > Since Paul has set a precedent, here is a link to Jim West's review of my
                > new NICNT Commentary on the Gospel of John:
                >
                >
                >http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2010/10/28/the-gospel-of-john-the-new-international-commentary-on-the-new-testament/
                >
                >
                >/
                >
                >
                > Also, in case you haven't seen it, a link to Matthew Montonini's three-part
                > interview with me about the Commentary on his New Testament Perspectives:
                >
                >
                >http://newtestamentperspectives.blogspot.com/2010/10/j-ramsey-michaels-interview-part-iii.html
                >
                >
                >l
                >
                > Best wishes to all,
                >
                > Ramsey Michaels
                > Portsmouth, New Hampshire
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Paul Anderson
                > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 10:02 PM
                > Subject: [John_Lit] Riddles, etc.
                >
                >
                >
                > Dear fellow Johannine scholars,
                >
                > Here are a few things that might be of interest:
                >
                > a) My new introduction to John, *The Riddles of the Fourth Gospel*
                > (Fortress
                > Press, forthcoming) is being previewed by Jim West on the Zwingli website
                > in
                > case any are interested in following:
                >
                >http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2011/01/22/the-riddles-of-the-fourth-gospel-an-introduction-to-john/
                >
                >
                >/
                >
                >http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2011/01/22/a-guest-post-by-paul-anderson/
                >
                >
                >/
                >
                > A review session is also being organized for the May meetings of the
                > Pacific
                > Northwest AAR/SBL/ASOR meetings in Spokane, so if any of you are
                > interested
                > in serving on the panel, do let me know (offline, please, at
                > panderso@...).
                >
                > b) Tom Thatcher led an excellent Colloquium discussion on the John, Jesus,
                > and History a few days ago, so you might follow up on that if you're
                > interested in the latest on that front. See also the website, managed by
                > Felix Just, posting the papers and abstracts over the last nine years if
                > interested.
                >
                >
                > http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2011/01/09/john-jesus-and-history/
                >
                > http://johannine.org/JJH-2010.html
                >
                > c) And, here are several other postings on *Bible and Interpretation*,
                > giving an update on the JJH Project as well as a Bi-Optic Hypothesis, my
                > dialogue with Marcus Borg, and an overlooked first-century clue to John's
                > authorhip.
                > http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/john1357917.shtml
                >
                > http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/fourth357921.shtml
                >
                > http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/mainz357911.shtml
                > http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/acts357920.shtml
                >
                > Take care,
                >
                > Paul Anderson
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messagesYahoo! Groups
                > Links
                >
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • John Ronning
                w.r.t. backgrounds to study of John s Gospel, scholars obviously have to decide whether a particular area of study promises to be fruitful in illuminating
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 3, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  w.r.t. "backgrounds" to study of John's Gospel, scholars obviously have to
                  decide whether a particular area of study promises to be fruitful in
                  illuminating the text under discussion. However, I doubt that anyone would
                  affirm that OT background can be overlooked in the study of any NT book. The
                  point I would make in connection with this is that the Targums should be studied
                  not just as "one potential background among many possible," but as
                  (interpretive) translations of the OT, therefore automatically of interest. No
                  one needs to justify looking at the LXX translation as part of OT background
                  studies, but there seems to be a strange double standard when it comes to the
                  Targums.

                  E.g. Keener, in rejecting the Targums as a background for the Logos title,
                  treats the Word theology in the Targums as an isolated strand of early Jewish
                  thought, therefore unlikely to be of general interest (p. 350). Surely the
                  opposite is the case, since the Targums were for the purpose of being recited in
                  the synagogue, i.e. they are for the common people; they were the Aramaic LXX
                  plus interpretive notes (as far as we know, the entire Pentateuch and portions
                  of the prophets were read on Sabbaths, other books like Song of Solomon were
                  read on feast days).

                  To be fair, Keener joins this statement with the observation that since the
                  extant Targums are all post-John, we can't be sure of how the Word theology
                  might have been used in the first century. To an extent I would agree, but if we
                  investigate the extant Targums and see passage after passage in John illuminated
                  by such an examination, then we do approach probability and perhaps certainty,
                  though it would take considerable study to get to that point (thus, my book). To
                  fail to undertake such a study is in my view a "head in the sand" approach. Of
                  course, since scholars are busy, they might rely on others who say that such a
                  study is a waste of time--many like to quote Barrett: "Memra is a blind alley in
                  the study of John's logos doctrine" (also on p. 350 of Keener). Whether Barrett
                  himself went down this alley to see if it was blind I don't know, but since he
                  was such a Greek specialist I wonder if he was biased.

                  In 1 Cor 15:45, Paul quotes Gen 2:7, "The first man, Adam, became a living
                  soul." Sometimes in the Targums Adam is called )dm qdmy). (MacNamara remarks
                  that this corresponds to Hebrew adam harishon, common in ranninic lit.). None of
                  the extant Targums use this at Gen 2:7 but Neofiti uses it in the following
                  verse. Some translators of the Aramaic Bible series translate this as "first
                  man," others translate it as "first Adam." Interesting that Paul's phrase "the
                  first man, Adam" looks like a conflation of these two possibilities.

                  Paul goes on to say that "the last Adam [became] a life-giving Spirit." One
                  answer that has been given to the question, why is Jesus only called "the Son of
                  Man" in the Gospels and Acts, not in any of the epistles?, is that in calling
                  Jesus the last Adam, it amounts to the same thing as calling him the Son of Man;
                  the reason he doesn't use the phrase "Son of Man" is that in the Gospels the
                  title is meant to be obscure, to avoid a direct claim to be the Messiah, but
                  Paul means to explain, not obscure. This interpretation depends in part on
                  assuming that "the Son of Man" depends on Ps 8:4, as one might suspect from
                  Hebrews 2. The obstacle to this has been the belief that no saying in the
                  Gospels can be traced to Psalm 8. In fact, however, the first use of this title
                  both in Matthew and John can be read as depending in part on Psalm 8. Matt 8:20:
                  "The foxes have holes" etc. can be seen as an ironic allusion to Psalm 8,
                  according to which man/son of man is given dominion over the beasts of the field
                  [e.g. foxes] and birds of the air. Jesus, the true Adam, doesn't even have a
                  fixed place to lie down, whereas the creatures under his dominion do. This was
                  pointed out, by the way, in the ABD article on the Son of Man, which also
                  pointed out that in Daniel 7, one like a son of man is given dominion over
                  kingdoms depicted as animals, with characteristics of beasts of the field and
                  birds of the air - an eschatological version of Psalm 8 (with relevance to some
                  Gospel Son of Man sayings alluding to Dan 7:13).

                  Likewise the first use of the title in John: angels ascending and descending
                  upon the Son of Man, besides the obvious allusion to Genesis 28, depicts the Son
                  of Man as "lower than the angels" a la Psalm 8. I point out in chapter 4 of my
                  book that all of the Son of Man sayings in John, except possibly 5:27, can be
                  categorized according to how Hebrews 2 adapts Psalm 8 to Jesus: (1) his
                  temporary descent to a place "lower than the angels" (1:51; 3:13; 6:62); (2) his
                  glorification or lifting up (3:14; 8:12; 12:23, 34; 13:31); (3) "bringing many
                  sons to glory" i.e. spiritual progenitor of his people as Adam was the physical
                  progenitor (9:35; 6:27, 53).

                  Of interest in all of this is that Tg. Neofiti, besides calling Adam "the first
                  man/Adam," also calls him "the son of man" (bar nasha, used generically for
                  "man") (Gen 1:27; 2:18). Neof. Gen 1:27 is particularly interesting in light of
                  John 1:14: "The Word of the Lord created the son of man." If this reading were
                  current in the first century, then it is possible that another clue to the
                  meaning of the Son of Man title as "the last Adam" is the Targum use of "the son
                  of man" for "the first Adam."

                  Is this information not at least as relevant as the use of "the son of man" in
                  the Ethiopic version of the Book of Enoch?

                  A generic use of "the son of man" in the Palestinian Targums Gen 40:23 is also
                  of interest to johannine studies. The Targums are evidently trying to answer the
                  question, why Joseph was stuck in prison for two more years after foretelling
                  the future of Pharaoh's cup-bearer and baker. The answer that they give is that
                  Joseph forgot the lesson of Jeremiah 17 (this anachronism is solved in Neofiti
                  by saying that the passage is also in "the Book of the Wars"). In asking the
                  cup-bearer to remember him to Pharaoh, Joseph trusted in flesh that tastes the
                  cup of death, and forgot the Scripture that says "Cursed is the son of man who
                  trusts in the flesh . . . but blessed is the man who trusts in the name of the
                  Word of the Lord, and makes the Word of the Lord his trust."

                  The quotes are from Jer 17:5, 7. The reason I quoted this from Pal. Tgs. Gen
                  40:23 rather than from the Targum of Jeremiah is that the latter (as is true of
                  Targum Jonathan generally) does not use the expression "name of the Word of the
                  Lord," the expression I suggest is meant in John 1:12 - "those who believe in
                  his (the Word's) name."

                  We can easily imagine Jewish Christians being charged with the same offense:
                  "You trust in Jesus, you are trusting in a son of man, in flesh that tasted the
                  cup of death, therefore you are under God's curse." John gives his answer at the
                  end of chapter 2, read in light of Jer 17 as quoted in Pal. Tgs. Gen 40:23:
                  v. 23; "during the feast, many believed in his name, beholding the signs which
                  he was doing." Why does such faith not put them in the category of those who are
                  cursed acc. to Jer 17:5, for trusting in the son of man, in flesh etc.? Because
                  they are actually in the category of those who are blessed acc. to Jer 17:7,
                  because they trust in the name of the Word of the Lord (who became the Son of
                  Man; yes he tasted death, but overcame it).

                  John goes on to say that Jesus himself observed Jer 17:5: he himself did not put
                  his trust in men (v. 24). Not only that, John goes on to say that Jesus knew all
                  men, and knew what was in man which is what Jer 17:9-10 says about the Lord:
                  "The heart is deceitful . . . who can know it? I the Lord search the heart, I
                  test the mind, to give to each man according to his ways" (also paraphrased by
                  Jesus in Rev 2:23).

                  Regards,
                  John Ronning




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jack Kilmon
                  ... From: John Ronning Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 11:27 AM To: Subject: [John_Lit] The
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 3, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --------------------------------------------------
                    From: "John Ronning" <jronning@...>
                    Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 11:27 AM
                    To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: [John_Lit] The Targums and the "Son of Man" title

                    > w.r.t. "backgrounds" to study of John's Gospel, scholars obviously have to
                    > decide whether a particular area of study promises to be fruitful in
                    > illuminating the text under discussion. However, I doubt that anyone would
                    > affirm that OT background can be overlooked in the study of any NT book.
                    > The
                    > point I would make in connection with this is that the Targums should be
                    > studied
                    > not just as "one potential background among many possible," but as
                    > (interpretive) translations of the OT, therefore automatically of
                    > interest. No
                    > one needs to justify looking at the LXX translation as part of OT
                    > background
                    > studies, but there seems to be a strange double standard when it comes to
                    > the
                    > Targums.
                    >
                    > E.g. Keener, in rejecting the Targums as a background for the Logos title,
                    > treats the Word theology in the Targums as an isolated strand of early
                    > Jewish
                    > thought, therefore unlikely to be of general interest (p. 350). Surely the
                    > opposite is the case, since the Targums were for the purpose of being
                    > recited in
                    > the synagogue, i.e. they are for the common people; they were the Aramaic
                    > LXX
                    > plus interpretive notes (as far as we know, the entire Pentateuch and
                    > portions
                    > of the prophets were read on Sabbaths, other books like Song of Solomon
                    > were
                    > read on feast days).
                    >
                    > To be fair, Keener joins this statement with the observation that since
                    > the
                    > extant Targums are all post-John, we can't be sure of how the Word
                    > theology
                    > might have been used in the first century. To an extent I would agree, but
                    > if we
                    > investigate the extant Targums and see passage after passage in John
                    > illuminated
                    > by such an examination, then we do approach probability and perhaps
                    > certainty,
                    > though it would take considerable study to get to that point (thus, my
                    > book). To
                    > fail to undertake such a study is in my view a "head in the sand"
                    > approach. Of
                    > course, since scholars are busy, they might rely on others who say that
                    > such a
                    > study is a waste of time--many like to quote Barrett: "Memra is a blind
                    > alley in
                    > the study of John's logos doctrine" (also on p. 350 of Keener). Whether
                    > Barrett
                    > himself went down this alley to see if it was blind I don't know, but
                    > since he
                    > was such a Greek specialist I wonder if he was biased.
                    >
                    > In 1 Cor 15:45, Paul quotes Gen 2:7, "The first man, Adam, became a living
                    > soul." Sometimes in the Targums Adam is called )dm qdmy). (MacNamara
                    > remarks
                    > that this corresponds to Hebrew adam harishon, common in ranninic lit.).
                    > None of
                    > the extant Targums use this at Gen 2:7 but Neofiti uses it in the
                    > following
                    > verse. Some translators of the Aramaic Bible series translate this as
                    > "first
                    > man," others translate it as "first Adam." Interesting that Paul's phrase
                    > "the
                    > first man, Adam" looks like a conflation of these two possibilities.
                    >
                    > Paul goes on to say that "the last Adam [became] a life-giving Spirit."
                    > One
                    > answer that has been given to the question, why is Jesus only called "the
                    > Son of
                    > Man" in the Gospels and Acts, not in any of the epistles?, is that in
                    > calling
                    > Jesus the last Adam, it amounts to the same thing as calling him the Son
                    > of Man;
                    > the reason he doesn't use the phrase "Son of Man" is that in the Gospels
                    > the
                    > title is meant to be obscure, to avoid a direct claim to be the Messiah,
                    > but
                    > Paul means to explain, not obscure. This interpretation depends in part on
                    > assuming that "the Son of Man" depends on Ps 8:4, as one might suspect
                    > from
                    > Hebrews 2. The obstacle to this has been the belief that no saying in the
                    > Gospels can be traced to Psalm 8. In fact, however, the first use of this
                    > title
                    > both in Matthew and John can be read as depending in part on Psalm 8. Matt
                    > 8:20:
                    > "The foxes have holes" etc. can be seen as an ironic allusion to Psalm 8,
                    > according to which man/son of man is given dominion over the beasts of the
                    > field
                    > [e.g. foxes] and birds of the air. Jesus, the true Adam, doesn't even have
                    > a
                    > fixed place to lie down, whereas the creatures under his dominion do. This
                    > was
                    > pointed out, by the way, in the ABD article on the Son of Man, which also
                    > pointed out that in Daniel 7, one like a son of man is given dominion over
                    > kingdoms depicted as animals, with characteristics of beasts of the field
                    > and
                    > birds of the air - an eschatological version of Psalm 8 (with relevance to
                    > some
                    > Gospel Son of Man sayings alluding to Dan 7:13).
                    >
                    > Likewise the first use of the title in John: angels ascending and
                    > descending
                    > upon the Son of Man, besides the obvious allusion to Genesis 28, depicts
                    > the Son
                    > of Man as "lower than the angels" a la Psalm 8. I point out in chapter 4
                    > of my
                    > book that all of the Son of Man sayings in John, except possibly 5:27, can
                    > be
                    > categorized according to how Hebrews 2 adapts Psalm 8 to Jesus: (1) his
                    > temporary descent to a place "lower than the angels" (1:51; 3:13; 6:62);
                    > (2) his
                    > glorification or lifting up (3:14; 8:12; 12:23, 34; 13:31); (3) "bringing
                    > many
                    > sons to glory" i.e. spiritual progenitor of his people as Adam was the
                    > physical
                    > progenitor (9:35; 6:27, 53).
                    >
                    > Of interest in all of this is that Tg. Neofiti, besides calling Adam "the
                    > first
                    > man/Adam," also calls him "the son of man" (bar nasha, used generically
                    > for
                    > "man") (Gen 1:27; 2:18). Neof. Gen 1:27 is particularly interesting in
                    > light of
                    > John 1:14: "The Word of the Lord created the son of man." If this reading
                    > were
                    > current in the first century, then it is possible that another clue to the
                    > meaning of the Son of Man title as "the last Adam" is the Targum use of
                    > "the son
                    > of man" for "the first Adam."
                    >
                    > Is this information not at least as relevant as the use of "the son of
                    > man" in
                    > the Ethiopic version of the Book of Enoch?
                    >
                    > A generic use of "the son of man" in the Palestinian Targums Gen 40:23 is
                    > also
                    > of interest to johannine studies. The Targums are evidently trying to
                    > answer the
                    > question, why Joseph was stuck in prison for two more years after
                    > foretelling
                    > the future of Pharaoh's cup-bearer and baker. The answer that they give is
                    > that
                    > Joseph forgot the lesson of Jeremiah 17 (this anachronism is solved in
                    > Neofiti
                    > by saying that the passage is also in "the Book of the Wars"). In asking
                    > the
                    > cup-bearer to remember him to Pharaoh, Joseph trusted in flesh that tastes
                    > the
                    > cup of death, and forgot the Scripture that says "Cursed is the son of man
                    > who
                    > trusts in the flesh . . . but blessed is the man who trusts in the name of
                    > the
                    > Word of the Lord, and makes the Word of the Lord his trust."
                    >
                    > The quotes are from Jer 17:5, 7. The reason I quoted this from Pal. Tgs.
                    > Gen
                    > 40:23 rather than from the Targum of Jeremiah is that the latter (as is
                    > true of
                    > Targum Jonathan generally) does not use the expression "name of the Word
                    > of the
                    > Lord," the expression I suggest is meant in John 1:12 - "those who believe
                    > in
                    > his (the Word's) name."
                    >
                    > We can easily imagine Jewish Christians being charged with the same
                    > offense:
                    > "You trust in Jesus, you are trusting in a son of man, in flesh that
                    > tasted the
                    > cup of death, therefore you are under God's curse." John gives his answer
                    > at the
                    > end of chapter 2, read in light of Jer 17 as quoted in Pal. Tgs. Gen
                    > 40:23:
                    > v. 23; "during the feast, many believed in his name, beholding the signs
                    > which
                    > he was doing." Why does such faith not put them in the category of those
                    > who are
                    > cursed acc. to Jer 17:5, for trusting in the son of man, in flesh etc.?
                    > Because
                    > they are actually in the category of those who are blessed acc. to Jer
                    > 17:7,
                    > because they trust in the name of the Word of the Lord (who became the Son
                    > of
                    > Man; yes he tasted death, but overcame it).
                    >
                    > John goes on to say that Jesus himself observed Jer 17:5: he himself did
                    > not put
                    > his trust in men (v. 24). Not only that, John goes on to say that Jesus
                    > knew all
                    > men, and knew what was in man which is what Jer 17:9-10 says about the
                    > Lord:
                    > "The heart is deceitful . . . who can know it? I the Lord search the
                    > heart, I
                    > test the mind, to give to each man according to his ways" (also
                    > paraphrased by
                    > Jesus in Rev 2:23).
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    > John Ronning


                    Hi John:

                    This is going to get rather lengthy also, so bear with me

                    As the "follow the Aramaic" guy, I find this very interesting but I have
                    several concerns. The extant Targumym are post John as for their final
                    forms and codification but clearly date back to the time of John (c. 95 CE)
                    and prior judging from the Aramaic text of Neofiti, copied in the 16th
                    century from an earlier copy.

                    Use of ממרא
                    and נהורא

                    in Neofiti Genesis 1:16-17 and 2:2-3 are clearly reminiscent of the
                    Johannine epilog wording of "the Word" and "the light" but I am more
                    inclined to believe these are neo-Platonic elements in an antiphonal hymn
                    prefixed in the 2nd century to a Gospel that originally began at John 1:19.
                    This does not mean that the logos doctrine may not have had a circuitous
                    route from the targumym to Alexandrian neo-Platonic elements in Christianity
                    to the epilog. Targums were oral and not written accounting for their
                    scarcity in the DSS and it was probably pretty much up to the lector in the
                    synagogue how he was going to present the Hebrew verse (one verse for the
                    Torah, three for the prophets) in his and the congregants' native Aramaic.
                    It was a free exercise so he may have decided on a literal translation, a
                    paraphrase or an interpretation of what the Hebrew verse meant. I imagine
                    that prior to being set down in writing in a fixed form in the
                    post-destruction centuries, each lector would give a different form at
                    different synagogues and at different times. Of course this does not mean
                    that fixed forms did not become codified in oral targimic traditions. If
                    the "cry from the cross" is historical (Mark being the original), Jesus may
                    have been mouthing a targum of Psalms 22.

                    I do not think that the use of the self designation בר אנשׁ by Jesus, about
                    30 times in Matthew, was to avoid or obscure the direct claim to being the
                    Messiah. I don't think Jesus considered himself to be the Messiah but
                    instead exactly what he claimed himself many times, the "Son of Man" of
                    Daniel and Enoch.

                    There is a ton of literature on Yeshua's use of his self-description as the
                    bar nasha (Son of Man) and disagreements on what that meant. If the Dead
                    Sea Scroll corpus is a good barometer, the late 2nd temple period saw an
                    emergence of Daniel-Enochian fervor. In both Daniel and the Enochian
                    literature, the "son of man" plays a central role.

                    Yeshua himself, NOT ONCE, refers to himself with certainty as the Messiah
                    but instead refers to himself as the bar nasha/ben adam of Daniel and
                    Enoch..."coming on the clouds, etc." It was Paul of Tarsus...hostile to the
                    Nazarenes, who conferred the name of XRISTOS on Yeshua in his reconstruction
                    of Yeshua as the Pauline "Christ Crucified."

                    The cradle from which both Jewish and Christian "mysticism" arose was
                    Enochian apocalypticism, the same cradle from which post-destruction Ma'asei
                    Merkavah (which would eventually develop into Kabbala) and the Hekhalot
                    literature arose which deals with "mystical" ascents into heaven.

                    Anyone pursuing the ancient Jewish sources from which the Nazarenes arose,
                    should read the considerable Enochian literary corpus now available thanks
                    to the Qumran texts. The Books of Enoch and their related texts, Jubilees,
                    Giants, Weeks, Parables, Watchers, Testimonies of the 12 Patriarchs, Dreams,
                    etc. Enochian apocalypticism is a reflection of a Mesopotamian alternative
                    to Mosaic" Judaism with its focus on Enmeduranki, the 7th antediluvian king
                    of Sippar in the Sumerian Chronicles and a counterpart (or model) for Enoch.

                    There was a considerable influence by Zoroastrianism on Judaism as a result
                    to the Babylonian Captivity after which they brought the Enochian traditions
                    to Jerusalem upon the return. The Jerusalem priests at that time hated the
                    Enochian Jews (and it is my position that Jesus was an Enochian Jew) who
                    supported the Maccabees thereby gaining favor with the Hasmoneans. These
                    Enochian Jews became, IMO, the Essenes who subsequently developed serious
                    issues with the Hasmonean priest-kings. I don't think anyone would argue
                    that the Dead Sea Scrolls are not strongly Enochian.

                    The Jewish Nazarenes ("branchers") were heirs, IMO, to the Enochian
                    traditions but Gentile Christianity imported a constellation of influences
                    from Graeco-Roman sources. That Enochian Judaism was alternative to Mosaic
                    nomian Judaeism can explain why Paul appears anti-nomian and why Enoch was
                    not included in the Rabbinical canon.

                    Quoted in the Book of Jude:

                    "And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute
                    judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh
                    of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And
                    of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
                    (Enoch 1:9)

                    This is not a Bar Nasha that is "just a feller."

                    Other references to the SON OF MAN in Enoch:

                    "And there I saw One who had a head of days, And His head was white like
                    wool, And with Him was another being whose countenance had the appearance of
                    a man, And his face was full of graciousness, like one of the holy angels. 2
                    And I asked the angel who went with me and showed me all the hidden things,
                    concerning that 3 Son of Man, who he was, and whence he was, (and) why he
                    went with the Ancient of Days? And he answered and said unto me: This
                    is the Son of Man who hath righteousness, With whom dwelleth righteousness,
                    And who revealeth all the treasures of that which is hidden, Because the
                    Lord of Hosts hath chosen him, And whose lot hath the pre-eminence before
                    the Lord of Hosts in uprightness for ever." (Part 8 Chapter 46:1-3)

                    1 And in that place I saw the fountain of righteousness Which was
                    inexhaustible: And around it were many fountains of wisdom: And all the
                    thirsty drank of them, And were filled with wisdom, And their dwellings were
                    with the righteous and holy and elect. 2 And at that hour that Son of Man
                    was named In the presence of the Lord of Hosts, And his name before the
                    Ancient of Days. 3 Yea, before the sun and the signs were created, Before
                    the stars of the heaven were made, His name
                    was named before the Lord of Hosts. 4 He shall be a staff to the righteous
                    whereon to stay themselves and not fall, And he shall be the light of the
                    Gentiles, And the hope of those who are troubled of heart. 5 All who dwell
                    on earth shall fall down and worship before him, And will praise and bless
                    and celebrate with song the Lord of Hosts. 6 And for this reason hath he
                    been chosen and hidden before Him, Before the creation of the world and for
                    evermore. 7 And the wisdom of the Lord of Hosts hath revealed him to the
                    holy and righteous; For he hath preserved the lot of the righteous, Because
                    they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness, And have hated
                    all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of Hosts: For in his name
                    they are saved, And according to his good pleasure hath it been in regard to
                    their life. (Part 8 Chapter 48:1-7)

                    The Book of Daniel, like Enoch, was written originally in Aramaic. It
                    contains the most famous reference to the SON OF MAN.

                    Daniel 7:13-14 (WEB)
                    13 חזה הוית בחזוי ליליא וארו עם־ענני שׁמיא כבר אנשׁ אתה הוה ועד־עתיק יומיא
                    מטה וקדמוהי הקרבוהי׃ 14 ולה יהיב שׁלטן ויקר ומלכו וכל עממיא אמיא ולשׁניא לה
                    יפלחון שׁלטנה שׁלטן עלם די־לא יעדה ומלכותה פ

                    13 I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of
                    the sky one like a son of man (כבר אנש [kibar 'anash]), and he came even to
                    the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 There was
                    given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations,
                    and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
                    which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be
                    destroyed.

                    Yeshua spoke of himself, just as above in Daniel, at Matthew 24:30 And
                    then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all
                    the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in
                    the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

                    .....and at Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said:
                    nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting
                    on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

                    As you can see, Yeshua refers to himself as the SON OF MAN (Aramaic bar
                    nasha) of Daniel and Enoch and not, IMO, as simply the bar nash/a idiom for
                    "just a guy."

                    An Enochian Jew, in the late second temple period, is one who believed in
                    the Enochian apocalyptic such as the Essenes and Yohanan haMatbil.

                    Jesus/Yeshua was indeed, IMO, a herald of the imminent malkutha
                    d'alaha (Kingdom of God) in the Enochian tradition and, as such, outside of
                    "normative" Mosaic Judaism. I think there are other indicators that this
                    "Son of Man" from the ancient of days could be "Lord of the Sabbath" as well
                    as the Mosaic laws (seen in the formula "It is written" or "You have
                    heard"...ABC "but *I* tell you"...XYZ).

                    So yes, he was apocalyptic but, in his mind, just not a "sage" but THE bar
                    nasha that was expected by Yohanan/John (Matthew 11:3), with a different
                    eschatology, perhaps, than the Essenes or John, more ethical than
                    apocalyptic, the redeemer of Daniel 7:13-14.

                    Having said all this, I am intrigued by the concept of targumym elements in
                    first stratum NT material. What the Aramaic speaking first stratum Jesus
                    People in the Galilee and Judea knew about the Old Testament came to them in
                    oral Targumym.

                    Regards,

                    Jack Kilmon
                    San Antonio, TX
                  • jgibson000@comcast.net
                    ... And what exactly would that claim entail as a public and biographical fact? And how does one claim to be the Son of Man of Daniel without claiming that
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 3, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On 2/3/2011 1:27 PM, Jack Kilmon wrote:
                      >
                      > I do not think that the use of the self designation בר אנשׁ by Jesus, about
                      > 30 times in Matthew, was to avoid or obscure the direct claim to being the
                      > Messiah. I don't think Jesus considered himself to be the Messiah but
                      > instead exactly what he claimed himself many times, the "Son of Man" of
                      > Daniel and Enoch.
                      >

                      And what exactly would that claim entail as a public and biographical
                      fact? And how does one claim to be the Son of Man of Daniel without
                      claiming that one is God's elect and the true representative/embodiment
                      of Israel -- which, at least to my eyes, is what the role of Messiah
                      involves?

                      Jeffrey

                      --
                      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                      1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                      Chicago, Illinois
                      e-mail jgibson000@...
                    • John Ronning
                      Hi Jack, That s all very interesting -- I don t have the background to comment on all of the Enoch references. I tend to think that the DSS don t tell us
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 3, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Jack,

                        That's all very interesting -- I don't have the background to comment on all of
                        the Enoch references. I tend to think that the DSS don't tell us anything
                        definitive about Targum usage in the first century outside of the Essene
                        community.

                        I would disagree that Jesus never once claimed with certainty that he was the
                        Messiah (taking the "words in red" from the NT, whether or not you regard them
                        as authentic).

                        Interesting that his clearest claim to this title is spoken to the Samaritan
                        woman (John 4:26), not to the Jews. Is this not consistent with the view that he
                        veiled such claims when speaking to the Jews?

                        But when Peter says "You are the Christ," Jesus says this (truth) has been
                        revealed to him by his Father (Matt 16:17).

                        And at his trial he identifies himself as the Son of Man in terms of Dan 7:13
                        (Matt 26:64 etc.), equating this figure with the one at the right hand of God
                        referred to in Psalm 110:1, whom Jesus elsewhere affirmed is the Christ (Matt
                        22:42-45). At least, his accusers took this as a "yes" answer to the question
                        "Are you the Christ?" and he did not correct them. John the Baptist gave a very
                        plain "no" to such questions, as piety required of him - so should Jesus if "no"
                        was the answer. In the Synoptic accounts of Jesus' trial, then, it seems to be
                        assumed that the one like a son of man of Dan 7:13 was to be equated with the
                        Messiah.

                        Regards,
                        John




                        ________________________________
                        From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
                        To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 2:27:25 PM
                        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] The Targums and the "Son of Man" title




                        --------------------------------------------------
                        From: "John Ronning" <jronning@...>
                        Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 11:27 AM
                        To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                        Subject: [John_Lit] The Targums and the "Son of Man" title

                        > w.r.t. "backgrounds" to study of John's Gospel, scholars obviously have to
                        > decide whether a particular area of study promises to be fruitful in
                        > illuminating the text under discussion. However, I doubt that anyone would
                        > affirm that OT background can be overlooked in the study of any NT book.
                        > The
                        > point I would make in connection with this is that the Targums should be
                        > studied
                        > not just as "one potential background among many possible," but as
                        > (interpretive) translations of the OT, therefore automatically of
                        > interest. No
                        > one needs to justify looking at the LXX translation as part of OT
                        > background
                        > studies, but there seems to be a strange double standard when it comes to
                        > the
                        > Targums.
                        >
                        > E.g. Keener, in rejecting the Targums as a background for the Logos title,
                        > treats the Word theology in the Targums as an isolated strand of early
                        > Jewish
                        > thought, therefore unlikely to be of general interest (p. 350). Surely the
                        > opposite is the case, since the Targums were for the purpose of being
                        > recited in
                        > the synagogue, i.e. they are for the common people; they were the Aramaic
                        > LXX
                        > plus interpretive notes (as far as we know, the entire Pentateuch and
                        > portions
                        > of the prophets were read on Sabbaths, other books like Song of Solomon
                        > were
                        > read on feast days).
                        >
                        > To be fair, Keener joins this statement with the observation that since
                        > the
                        > extant Targums are all post-John, we can't be sure of how the Word
                        > theology
                        > might have been used in the first century. To an extent I would agree, but
                        > if we
                        > investigate the extant Targums and see passage after passage in John
                        > illuminated
                        > by such an examination, then we do approach probability and perhaps
                        > certainty,
                        > though it would take considerable study to get to that point (thus, my
                        > book). To
                        > fail to undertake such a study is in my view a "head in the sand"
                        > approach. Of
                        > course, since scholars are busy, they might rely on others who say that
                        > such a
                        > study is a waste of time--many like to quote Barrett: "Memra is a blind
                        > alley in
                        > the study of John's logos doctrine" (also on p. 350 of Keener). Whether
                        > Barrett
                        > himself went down this alley to see if it was blind I don't know, but
                        > since he
                        > was such a Greek specialist I wonder if he was biased.
                        >
                        > In 1 Cor 15:45, Paul quotes Gen 2:7, "The first man, Adam, became a living
                        > soul." Sometimes in the Targums Adam is called )dm qdmy). (MacNamara
                        > remarks
                        > that this corresponds to Hebrew adam harishon, common in ranninic lit.).
                        > None of
                        > the extant Targums use this at Gen 2:7 but Neofiti uses it in the
                        > following
                        > verse. Some translators of the Aramaic Bible series translate this as
                        > "first
                        > man," others translate it as "first Adam." Interesting that Paul's phrase
                        > "the
                        > first man, Adam" looks like a conflation of these two possibilities.
                        >
                        > Paul goes on to say that "the last Adam [became] a life-giving Spirit."
                        > One
                        > answer that has been given to the question, why is Jesus only called "the
                        > Son of
                        > Man" in the Gospels and Acts, not in any of the epistles?, is that in
                        > calling
                        > Jesus the last Adam, it amounts to the same thing as calling him the Son
                        > of Man;
                        > the reason he doesn't use the phrase "Son of Man" is that in the Gospels
                        > the
                        > title is meant to be obscure, to avoid a direct claim to be the Messiah,
                        > but
                        > Paul means to explain, not obscure. This interpretation depends in part on
                        > assuming that "the Son of Man" depends on Ps 8:4, as one might suspect
                        > from
                        > Hebrews 2. The obstacle to this has been the belief that no saying in the
                        > Gospels can be traced to Psalm 8. In fact, however, the first use of this
                        > title
                        > both in Matthew and John can be read as depending in part on Psalm 8. Matt
                        > 8:20:
                        > "The foxes have holes" etc. can be seen as an ironic allusion to Psalm 8,
                        > according to which man/son of man is given dominion over the beasts of the
                        > field
                        > [e.g. foxes] and birds of the air. Jesus, the true Adam, doesn't even have
                        > a
                        > fixed place to lie down, whereas the creatures under his dominion do. This
                        > was
                        > pointed out, by the way, in the ABD article on the Son of Man, which also
                        > pointed out that in Daniel 7, one like a son of man is given dominion over
                        > kingdoms depicted as animals, with characteristics of beasts of the field
                        > and
                        > birds of the air - an eschatological version of Psalm 8 (with relevance to
                        > some
                        > Gospel Son of Man sayings alluding to Dan 7:13).
                        >
                        > Likewise the first use of the title in John: angels ascending and
                        > descending
                        > upon the Son of Man, besides the obvious allusion to Genesis 28, depicts
                        > the Son
                        > of Man as "lower than the angels" a la Psalm 8. I point out in chapter 4
                        > of my
                        > book that all of the Son of Man sayings in John, except possibly 5:27, can
                        > be
                        > categorized according to how Hebrews 2 adapts Psalm 8 to Jesus: (1) his
                        > temporary descent to a place "lower than the angels" (1:51; 3:13; 6:62);
                        > (2) his
                        > glorification or lifting up (3:14; 8:12; 12:23, 34; 13:31); (3) "bringing
                        > many
                        > sons to glory" i.e. spiritual progenitor of his people as Adam was the
                        > physical
                        > progenitor (9:35; 6:27, 53).
                        >
                        > Of interest in all of this is that Tg. Neofiti, besides calling Adam "the
                        > first
                        > man/Adam," also calls him "the son of man" (bar nasha, used generically
                        > for
                        > "man") (Gen 1:27; 2:18). Neof. Gen 1:27 is particularly interesting in
                        > light of
                        > John 1:14: "The Word of the Lord created the son of man." If this reading
                        > were
                        > current in the first century, then it is possible that another clue to the
                        > meaning of the Son of Man title as "the last Adam" is the Targum use of
                        > "the son
                        > of man" for "the first Adam."
                        >
                        > Is this information not at least as relevant as the use of "the son of
                        > man" in
                        > the Ethiopic version of the Book of Enoch?
                        >
                        > A generic use of "the son of man" in the Palestinian Targums Gen 40:23 is
                        > also
                        > of interest to johannine studies. The Targums are evidently trying to
                        > answer the
                        > question, why Joseph was stuck in prison for two more years after
                        > foretelling
                        > the future of Pharaoh's cup-bearer and baker. The answer that they give is
                        > that
                        > Joseph forgot the lesson of Jeremiah 17 (this anachronism is solved in
                        > Neofiti
                        > by saying that the passage is also in "the Book of the Wars"). In asking
                        > the
                        > cup-bearer to remember him to Pharaoh, Joseph trusted in flesh that tastes
                        > the
                        > cup of death, and forgot the Scripture that says "Cursed is the son of man
                        > who
                        > trusts in the flesh . . . but blessed is the man who trusts in the name of
                        > the
                        > Word of the Lord, and makes the Word of the Lord his trust."
                        >
                        > The quotes are from Jer 17:5, 7. The reason I quoted this from Pal. Tgs.
                        > Gen
                        > 40:23 rather than from the Targum of Jeremiah is that the latter (as is
                        > true of
                        > Targum Jonathan generally) does not use the expression "name of the Word
                        > of the
                        > Lord," the expression I suggest is meant in John 1:12 - "those who believe
                        > in
                        > his (the Word's) name."
                        >
                        > We can easily imagine Jewish Christians being charged with the same
                        > offense:
                        > "You trust in Jesus, you are trusting in a son of man, in flesh that
                        > tasted the
                        > cup of death, therefore you are under God's curse." John gives his answer
                        > at the
                        > end of chapter 2, read in light of Jer 17 as quoted in Pal. Tgs. Gen
                        > 40:23:
                        > v. 23; "during the feast, many believed in his name, beholding the signs
                        > which
                        > he was doing." Why does such faith not put them in the category of those
                        > who are
                        > cursed acc. to Jer 17:5, for trusting in the son of man, in flesh etc.?
                        > Because
                        > they are actually in the category of those who are blessed acc. to Jer
                        > 17:7,
                        > because they trust in the name of the Word of the Lord (who became the Son
                        > of
                        > Man; yes he tasted death, but overcame it).
                        >
                        > John goes on to say that Jesus himself observed Jer 17:5: he himself did
                        > not put
                        > his trust in men (v. 24). Not only that, John goes on to say that Jesus
                        > knew all
                        > men, and knew what was in man which is what Jer 17:9-10 says about the
                        > Lord:
                        > "The heart is deceitful . . . who can know it? I the Lord search the
                        > heart, I
                        > test the mind, to give to each man according to his ways" (also
                        > paraphrased by
                        > Jesus in Rev 2:23).
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        > John Ronning

                        Hi John:

                        This is going to get rather lengthy also, so bear with me

                        As the "follow the Aramaic" guy, I find this very interesting but I have
                        several concerns. The extant Targumym are post John as for their final
                        forms and codification but clearly date back to the time of John (c. 95 CE)
                        and prior judging from the Aramaic text of Neofiti, copied in the 16th
                        century from an earlier copy.

                        Use of ממרא
                        and נהורא

                        in Neofiti Genesis 1:16-17 and 2:2-3 are clearly reminiscent of the
                        Johannine epilog wording of "the Word" and "the light" but I am more
                        inclined to believe these are neo-Platonic elements in an antiphonal hymn
                        prefixed in the 2nd century to a Gospel that originally began at John 1:19.
                        This does not mean that the logos doctrine may not have had a circuitous
                        route from the targumym to Alexandrian neo-Platonic elements in Christianity
                        to the epilog. Targums were oral and not written accounting for their
                        scarcity in the DSS and it was probably pretty much up to the lector in the
                        synagogue how he was going to present the Hebrew verse (one verse for the
                        Torah, three for the prophets) in his and the congregants' native Aramaic.
                        It was a free exercise so he may have decided on a literal translation, a
                        paraphrase or an interpretation of what the Hebrew verse meant. I imagine
                        that prior to being set down in writing in a fixed form in the
                        post-destruction centuries, each lector would give a different form at
                        different synagogues and at different times. Of course this does not mean
                        that fixed forms did not become codified in oral targimic traditions. If
                        the "cry from the cross" is historical (Mark being the original), Jesus may
                        have been mouthing a targum of Psalms 22.

                        I do not think that the use of the self designation בר אנשׁ by Jesus, about
                        30 times in Matthew, was to avoid or obscure the direct claim to being the
                        Messiah. I don't think Jesus considered himself to be the Messiah but
                        instead exactly what he claimed himself many times, the "Son of Man" of
                        Daniel and Enoch.

                        There is a ton of literature on Yeshua's use of his self-description as the
                        bar nasha (Son of Man) and disagreements on what that meant. If the Dead
                        Sea Scroll corpus is a good barometer, the late 2nd temple period saw an
                        emergence of Daniel-Enochian fervor. In both Daniel and the Enochian
                        literature, the "son of man" plays a central role.

                        Yeshua himself, NOT ONCE, refers to himself with certainty as the Messiah
                        but instead refers to himself as the bar nasha/ben adam of Daniel and
                        Enoch..."coming on the clouds, etc." It was Paul of Tarsus...hostile to the
                        Nazarenes, who conferred the name of XRISTOS on Yeshua in his reconstruction
                        of Yeshua as the Pauline "Christ Crucified."

                        The cradle from which both Jewish and Christian "mysticism" arose was
                        Enochian apocalypticism, the same cradle from which post-destruction Ma'asei
                        Merkavah (which would eventually develop into Kabbala) and the Hekhalot
                        literature arose which deals with "mystical" ascents into heaven.

                        Anyone pursuing the ancient Jewish sources from which the Nazarenes arose,
                        should read the considerable Enochian literary corpus now available thanks
                        to the Qumran texts. The Books of Enoch and their related texts, Jubilees,
                        Giants, Weeks, Parables, Watchers, Testimonies of the 12 Patriarchs, Dreams,
                        etc. Enochian apocalypticism is a reflection of a Mesopotamian alternative
                        to Mosaic" Judaism with its focus on Enmeduranki, the 7th antediluvian king
                        of Sippar in the Sumerian Chronicles and a counterpart (or model) for Enoch.

                        There was a considerable influence by Zoroastrianism on Judaism as a result
                        to the Babylonian Captivity after which they brought the Enochian traditions
                        to Jerusalem upon the return. The Jerusalem priests at that time hated the
                        Enochian Jews (and it is my position that Jesus was an Enochian Jew) who
                        supported the Maccabees thereby gaining favor with the Hasmoneans. These
                        Enochian Jews became, IMO, the Essenes who subsequently developed serious
                        issues with the Hasmonean priest-kings. I don't think anyone would argue
                        that the Dead Sea Scrolls are not strongly Enochian.

                        The Jewish Nazarenes ("branchers") were heirs, IMO, to the Enochian
                        traditions but Gentile Christianity imported a constellation of influences
                        from Graeco-Roman sources. That Enochian Judaism was alternative to Mosaic
                        nomian Judaeism can explain why Paul appears anti-nomian and why Enoch was
                        not included in the Rabbinical canon.

                        Quoted in the Book of Jude:

                        "And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute
                        judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh
                        of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And
                        of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
                        (Enoch 1:9)

                        This is not a Bar Nasha that is "just a feller."

                        Other references to the SON OF MAN in Enoch:

                        "And there I saw One who had a head of days, And His head was white like
                        wool, And with Him was another being whose countenance had the appearance of
                        a man, And his face was full of graciousness, like one of the holy angels. 2
                        And I asked the angel who went with me and showed me all the hidden things,
                        concerning that 3 Son of Man, who he was, and whence he was, (and) why he
                        went with the Ancient of Days? And he answered and said unto me: This
                        is the Son of Man who hath righteousness, With whom dwelleth righteousness,
                        And who revealeth all the treasures of that which is hidden, Because the
                        Lord of Hosts hath chosen him, And whose lot hath the pre-eminence before
                        the Lord of Hosts in uprightness for ever." (Part 8 Chapter 46:1-3)

                        1 And in that place I saw the fountain of righteousness Which was
                        inexhaustible: And around it were many fountains of wisdom: And all the
                        thirsty drank of them, And were filled with wisdom, And their dwellings were
                        with the righteous and holy and elect. 2 And at that hour that Son of Man
                        was named In the presence of the Lord of Hosts, And his name before the
                        Ancient of Days. 3 Yea, before the sun and the signs were created, Before
                        the stars of the heaven were made, His name
                        was named before the Lord of Hosts. 4 He shall be a staff to the righteous
                        whereon to stay themselves and not fall, And he shall be the light of the
                        Gentiles, And the hope of those who are troubled of heart. 5 All who dwell
                        on earth shall fall down and worship before him, And will praise and bless
                        and celebrate with song the Lord of Hosts. 6 And for this reason hath he
                        been chosen and hidden before Him, Before the creation of the world and for
                        evermore. 7 And the wisdom of the Lord of Hosts hath revealed him to the
                        holy and righteous; For he hath preserved the lot of the righteous, Because
                        they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness, And have hated
                        all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of Hosts: For in his name
                        they are saved, And according to his good pleasure hath it been in regard to
                        their life. (Part 8 Chapter 48:1-7)

                        The Book of Daniel, like Enoch, was written originally in Aramaic. It
                        contains the most famous reference to the SON OF MAN.

                        Daniel 7:13-14 (WEB)
                        13 חזה הוית בחזוי ליליא וארו עם־ענני שׁמיא כבר אנשׁ אתה הוה ועד־עתיק יומיא
                        מטה וקדמוהי הקרבוהי׃ 14 ולה יהיב שׁלטן ויקר ומלכו וכל עממיא אמיא ולשׁניא לה
                        יפלחון שׁלטנה שׁלטן עלם די־לא יעדה ומלכותה פ

                        13 I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of
                        the sky one like a son of man (כבר אנש [kibar 'anash]), and he came even to
                        the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 There was
                        given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations,
                        and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
                        which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be
                        destroyed.

                        Yeshua spoke of himself, just as above in Daniel, at Matthew 24:30 And
                        then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all
                        the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in
                        the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

                        .....and at Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said:
                        nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting
                        on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

                        As you can see, Yeshua refers to himself as the SON OF MAN (Aramaic bar
                        nasha) of Daniel and Enoch and not, IMO, as simply the bar nash/a idiom for
                        "just a guy."

                        An Enochian Jew, in the late second temple period, is one who believed in
                        the Enochian apocalyptic such as the Essenes and Yohanan haMatbil.

                        Jesus/Yeshua was indeed, IMO, a herald of the imminent malkutha
                        d'alaha (Kingdom of God) in the Enochian tradition and, as such, outside of
                        "normative" Mosaic Judaism. I think there are other indicators that this
                        "Son of Man" from the ancient of days could be "Lord of the Sabbath" as well
                        as the Mosaic laws (seen in the formula "It is written" or "You have
                        heard"...ABC "but *I* tell you"...XYZ).

                        So yes, he was apocalyptic but, in his mind, just not a "sage" but THE bar
                        nasha that was expected by Yohanan/John (Matthew 11:3), with a different
                        eschatology, perhaps, than the Essenes or John, more ethical than
                        apocalyptic, the redeemer of Daniel 7:13-14.

                        Having said all this, I am intrigued by the concept of targumym elements in
                        first stratum NT material. What the Aramaic speaking first stratum Jesus
                        People in the Galilee and Judea knew about the Old Testament came to them in
                        oral Targumym.

                        Regards,

                        Jack Kilmon
                        San Antonio, TX







                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Jack Kilmon
                        ... From: Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:34 PM To: Subject: Re: [John_Lit] The Targums and
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 3, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --------------------------------------------------
                          From: <jgibson000@...>
                          Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:34 PM
                          To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] The Targums and the "Son of Man" title

                          > On 2/3/2011 1:27 PM, Jack Kilmon wrote:
                          >>
                          >> I do not think that the use of the self designation בר אנשׁ by Jesus,
                          >> about
                          >> 30 times in Matthew, was to avoid or obscure the direct claim to being
                          >> the
                          >> Messiah. I don't think Jesus considered himself to be the Messiah but
                          >> instead exactly what he claimed himself many times, the "Son of Man" of
                          >> Daniel and Enoch.
                          >>
                          >
                          > And what exactly would that claim entail as a public and biographical
                          > fact? And how does one claim to be the Son of Man of Daniel without
                          > claiming that one is God's elect and the true representative/embodiment
                          > of Israel -- which, at least to my eyes, is what the role of Messiah
                          > involves?
                          >
                          > Jeffrey
                          >
                          > --
                          > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                          > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                          > Chicago, Illinois
                          > e-mail jgibson000@...


                          Hi Jeffret:

                          Somehow and somewhere the בר אנשׁ and the משׁיחא became conflated. The
                          role of the Messiah in a Jewish context appears to be ambiguous but
                          redefined by Christians. In one Jewish definition (Maimonides), "And if a
                          king shall arise from among the House of David, studying Torah and occupied
                          with commandments like his father David, according to the written and oral
                          Torah, and he will impel all of Israel to follow it and to strengthen
                          breaches in its observance, and will fight Hashem's [God's] wars, this one
                          is to be treated as if he were the anointed one.

                          Messiahs (anointed ones) had always been priests or kings, like David, a
                          warrior king who would overthrow the oppressors and rule over the re-united
                          tribes of Israel. The hope for a Messiah, a Pharisaic concept, must have
                          been at a fever pitch in the last two centuries BCE (134-63 BCE when a new
                          generation of Essenes emerge at the time of Hyrcanus and Alexander Jannaeus
                          and persecuted Pharisees come into the group. This is when the 4QTestimonia
                          was written and the Manual of Discipline expanded. Suddenly we have full
                          blown messianism which includes the advent of a PROPHET and the priestly
                          (Aaronic) and royal (Davidic) messiahs (1QS 9-11). This is also the time
                          when the basic foundations of the T12P (Testimonies of the 12
                          Patriarchs)...previous thought to be of later Christian composition..was
                          laid with its priestly and royal messiahs. T12P was a pharisaic work.
                          During the Roman Period (63-37 BCE) the Damascus Document (CD), the oldest
                          copy of which (4QDb) of 75-50 BCE now conjoins the two messiahs into ONE,
                          the Messiah of Aaron and Israel (CD19:10-11; 20:1; 12:23; 14:19).

                          In spite of 1 Enoch chapter 48 which is late Ethiopian, I do not think, as
                          some do, that they were the same or that it was Jesus who conflated the two.
                          If Jesus was, as I suspect, an Enochian Jew I think he saw them as
                          seaparate. Of course the ongoing contention and debate over the two will
                          probably never be settled and we all have to take a side, right?

                          Regards,

                          Jack

                          Jack Kilmon
                          San Antonio, TX
                        • jgibson000@comcast.net
                          ... I am afraid that this does not answer my question. What would someone being the Davidic Son of man entail? How would this identity manifest itself in
                          Message 12 of 23 , Feb 3, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On 2/3/2011 2:46 PM, Jack Kilmon wrote:
                            >
                            > --------------------------------------------------
                            > From:<jgibson000@...>
                            > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:34 PM
                            > To:<johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] The Targums and the "Son of Man" title
                            >
                            >
                            >> On 2/3/2011 1:27 PM, Jack Kilmon wrote:
                            >>
                            >>> I do not think that the use of the self designation בר אנשׁ by Jesus,
                            >>> about
                            >>> 30 times in Matthew, was to avoid or obscure the direct claim to being
                            >>> the
                            >>> Messiah. I don't think Jesus considered himself to be the Messiah but
                            >>> instead exactly what he claimed himself many times, the "Son of Man" of
                            >>> Daniel and Enoch.
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >> And what exactly would that claim entail as a public and biographical
                            >> fact? And how does one claim to be the Son of Man of Daniel without
                            >> claiming that one is God's elect and the true representative/embodiment
                            >> of Israel -- which, at least to my eyes, is what the role of Messiah
                            >> involves?
                            >>
                            >> Jeffrey
                            >>
                            >> --
                            >> Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                            >> 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                            >> Chicago, Illinois
                            >> e-mail jgibson000@...
                            >>
                            >
                            > Hi Jeffret:
                            >
                            > Somehow and somewhere the בר אנשׁ and the משׁיחא became conflated. The
                            > role of the Messiah in a Jewish context appears to be ambiguous but
                            > redefined by Christians. In one Jewish definition (Maimonides), "And if a
                            > king shall arise from among the House of David, studying Torah and occupied
                            > with commandments like his father David, according to the written and oral
                            > Torah, and he will impel all of Israel to follow it and to strengthen
                            > breaches in its observance, and will fight Hashem's [God's] wars, this one
                            > is to be treated as if he were the anointed one.
                            >
                            > Messiahs (anointed ones) had always been priests or kings, like David, a
                            > warrior king who would overthrow the oppressors and rule over the re-united
                            > tribes of Israel. The hope for a Messiah, a Pharisaic concept, must have
                            > been at a fever pitch in the last two centuries BCE (134-63 BCE when a new
                            > generation of Essenes emerge at the time of Hyrcanus and Alexander Jannaeus
                            > and persecuted Pharisees come into the group. This is when the 4QTestimonia
                            > was written and the Manual of Discipline expanded. Suddenly we have full
                            > blown messianism which includes the advent of a PROPHET and the priestly
                            > (Aaronic) and royal (Davidic) messiahs (1QS 9-11). This is also the time
                            > when the basic foundations of the T12P (Testimonies of the 12
                            > Patriarchs)...previous thought to be of later Christian composition..was
                            > laid with its priestly and royal messiahs. T12P was a pharisaic work.
                            > During the Roman Period (63-37 BCE) the Damascus Document (CD), the oldest
                            > copy of which (4QDb) of 75-50 BCE now conjoins the two messiahs into ONE,
                            > the Messiah of Aaron and Israel (CD19:10-11; 20:1; 12:23; 14:19).
                            >
                            > In spite of 1 Enoch chapter 48 which is late Ethiopian, I do not think, as
                            > some do, that they were the same or that it was Jesus who conflated the two.
                            > If Jesus was, as I suspect, an Enochian Jew I think he saw them as
                            > seaparate. Of course the ongoing contention and debate over the two will
                            > probably never be settled and we all have to take a side, right?
                            >
                            >
                            I am afraid that this does not answer my question. What would someone
                            being the Davidic Son of man entail? How would this identity manifest
                            itself in the villages and by ways of Palestine. How specifically was
                            one to act if one were to claim this role as one's own? What specific
                            action script would one who was Son of Man think he needed to follow?

                            Jeffrey

                            --
                            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                            1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                            Chicago, Illinois
                            e-mail jgibson000@...
                          • Jack Kilmon
                            ... From: John Ronning Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:18 PM To: Subject: Re: [John_Lit] The
                            Message 13 of 23 , Feb 3, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --------------------------------------------------
                              From: "John Ronning" <jronning@...>
                              Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:18 PM
                              To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] The Targums and the "Son of Man" title

                              > Hi Jack,
                              >
                              > That's all very interesting -- I don't have the background to comment on
                              > all of
                              > the Enoch references. I tend to think that the DSS don't tell us anything
                              > definitive about Targum usage in the first century outside of the Essene
                              > community.
                              >
                              > I would disagree that Jesus never once claimed with certainty that he was
                              > the
                              > Messiah (taking the "words in red" from the NT, whether or not you regard
                              > them
                              > as authentic).
                              >
                              > Interesting that his clearest claim to this title is spoken to the
                              > Samaritan
                              > woman (John 4:26), not to the Jews. Is this not consistent with the view
                              > that he
                              > veiled such claims when speaking to the Jews?
                              >
                              > But when Peter says "You are the Christ," Jesus says this (truth) has been
                              > revealed to him by his Father (Matt 16:17).
                              >
                              > And at his trial he identifies himself as the Son of Man in terms of Dan
                              > 7:13
                              > (Matt 26:64 etc.), equating this figure with the one at the right hand of
                              > God
                              > referred to in Psalm 110:1, whom Jesus elsewhere affirmed is the Christ
                              > (Matt
                              > 22:42-45). At least, his accusers took this as a "yes" answer to the
                              > question
                              > "Are you the Christ?" and he did not correct them. John the Baptist gave a
                              > very
                              > plain "no" to such questions, as piety required of him - so should Jesus
                              > if "no"
                              > was the answer. In the Synoptic accounts of Jesus' trial, then, it seems
                              > to be
                              > assumed that the one like a son of man of Dan 7:13 was to be equated with
                              > the
                              > Messiah.
                              >
                              > Regards,
                              > John

                              Hi John:

                              I am going to clip the double lengthy posts of ours that anyone can look
                              back on.

                              I consider the entire block between about John 3:9 to 4:42 (with absolutely
                              no parallels, even as elaborated or redacted passages, elsewhere) to be an
                              invention of John of Ephesus (that's another story) and I think very few
                              scholars accept Matthew 16:17 as authentic to the vox Iesu. I think the
                              lack of a clear admission to being the Messiah and the clear statement
                              invoking Daniel 7:13 at the trial (perhaps a suggestion of authenticity)
                              supports my position.

                              Regards,

                              Jack

                              Jack Kilmon
                              San Antonio, TX
                            • Jack Kilmon
                              ... From: Jack Kilmon Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:46 PM To: Subject: Re: [John_Lit]
                              Message 14 of 23 , Feb 3, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --------------------------------------------------
                                From: "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon@...>
                                Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:46 PM
                                To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] The Targums and the "Son of Man" title

                                > Hi Jeffret: (ooops! Sorry, old friend) JEFFREY
                                >
                                > Somehow and somewhere the בר אנשׁ and the משׁיחא became conflated. The
                                > role of the Messiah in a Jewish context appears to be ambiguous but
                                > redefined by Christians. In one Jewish definition (Maimonides), "And if
                                > a
                              • Jack Kilmon
                                ... From: Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:53 PM To: Subject: Re: [John_Lit] The Targums and
                                Message 15 of 23 , Feb 3, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --------------------------------------------------
                                  From: <jgibson000@...>
                                  Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:53 PM
                                  To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Subject: Re: [John_Lit] The Targums and the "Son of Man" title

                                  > On 2/3/2011 2:46 PM, Jack Kilmon wrote:
                                  >>
                                  >> --------------------------------------------------
                                  >> From:<jgibson000@...>
                                  >> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:34 PM
                                  >> To:<johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                                  >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] The Targums and the "Son of Man" title
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>> On 2/3/2011 1:27 PM, Jack Kilmon wrote:
                                  >>>
                                  >>>> I do not think that the use of the self designation בר אנשׁ by Jesus,
                                  >>>> about
                                  >>>> 30 times in Matthew, was to avoid or obscure the direct claim to being
                                  >>>> the
                                  >>>> Messiah. I don't think Jesus considered himself to be the Messiah but
                                  >>>> instead exactly what he claimed himself many times, the "Son of Man" of
                                  >>>> Daniel and Enoch.
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>>
                                  >>> And what exactly would that claim entail as a public and biographical
                                  >>> fact? And how does one claim to be the Son of Man of Daniel without
                                  >>> claiming that one is God's elect and the true representative/embodiment
                                  >>> of Israel -- which, at least to my eyes, is what the role of Messiah
                                  >>> involves?
                                  >>>
                                  >>> Jeffrey
                                  >>>
                                  >>> --
                                  >>> Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                                  >>> 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                                  >>> Chicago, Illinois
                                  >>> e-mail jgibson000@...
                                  >>>
                                  >>
                                  >> Hi Jeffret:
                                  >>
                                  >> Somehow and somewhere the בר אנשׁ and the משׁיחא became conflated. The
                                  >> role of the Messiah in a Jewish context appears to be ambiguous but
                                  >> redefined by Christians. In one Jewish definition (Maimonides), "And if
                                  >> a
                                  >> king shall arise from among the House of David, studying Torah and
                                  >> occupied
                                  >> with commandments like his father David, according to the written and
                                  >> oral
                                  >> Torah, and he will impel all of Israel to follow it and to strengthen
                                  >> breaches in its observance, and will fight Hashem's [God's] wars, this
                                  >> one
                                  >> is to be treated as if he were the anointed one.
                                  >>
                                  >> Messiahs (anointed ones) had always been priests or kings, like David, a
                                  >> warrior king who would overthrow the oppressors and rule over the
                                  >> re-united
                                  >> tribes of Israel. The hope for a Messiah, a Pharisaic concept, must have
                                  >> been at a fever pitch in the last two centuries BCE (134-63 BCE when a
                                  >> new
                                  >> generation of Essenes emerge at the time of Hyrcanus and Alexander
                                  >> Jannaeus
                                  >> and persecuted Pharisees come into the group. This is when the
                                  >> 4QTestimonia
                                  >> was written and the Manual of Discipline expanded. Suddenly we have full
                                  >> blown messianism which includes the advent of a PROPHET and the priestly
                                  >> (Aaronic) and royal (Davidic) messiahs (1QS 9-11). This is also the time
                                  >> when the basic foundations of the T12P (Testimonies of the 12
                                  >> Patriarchs)...previous thought to be of later Christian composition..was
                                  >> laid with its priestly and royal messiahs. T12P was a pharisaic work.
                                  >> During the Roman Period (63-37 BCE) the Damascus Document (CD), the
                                  >> oldest
                                  >> copy of which (4QDb) of 75-50 BCE now conjoins the two messiahs into ONE,
                                  >> the Messiah of Aaron and Israel (CD19:10-11; 20:1; 12:23; 14:19).
                                  >>
                                  >> In spite of 1 Enoch chapter 48 which is late Ethiopian, I do not think,
                                  >> as
                                  >> some do, that they were the same or that it was Jesus who conflated the
                                  >> two.
                                  >> If Jesus was, as I suspect, an Enochian Jew I think he saw them as
                                  >> seaparate. Of course the ongoing contention and debate over the two will
                                  >> probably never be settled and we all have to take a side, right?
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  > I am afraid that this does not answer my question. What would someone
                                  > being the Davidic Son of man entail? How would this identity manifest
                                  > itself in the villages and by ways of Palestine. How specifically was
                                  > one to act if one were to claim this role as one's own? What specific
                                  > action script would one who was Son of Man think he needed to follow?
                                  >
                                  > Jeffrey
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                                  > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                                  > Chicago, Illinois
                                  > e-mail jgibson000@...


                                  OK, let me take your questions individually:

                                  > I am afraid that this does not answer my question. What would someone
                                  > being the Davidic Son of man entail?

                                  I don't think the Son of Man was Davidic. unless I can be convinced Psalm
                                  144:3 (the only place it is mentioned outside of Daniel) proves differently.
                                  The Son of Man would be a divine figure of Daniel 7 seated at the RIGHT HAND
                                  of God (the right hand was where all of God's mojo comes from) and the
                                  eschatological arbiter of judgment. I recall this is discussed in detail by
                                  Darrell Brock (Blasphemy and Exultation in Judaism.

                                  > How would this identity manifest
                                  > itself in the villages and by ways of Palestine.

                                  The ordinary am ha-aretz were disenfranchised. They lived poorly, dressed
                                  poorly and were highly taxed. They were the last at the temple, lucky if
                                  they could afford a sacrificial dove. If they were infirm or maimed they
                                  could not even approach the temple precinct.The Son of Man could only give
                                  them hope and reassurance that in the Malkutha d'alaha it was they who would
                                  be first in line.

                                  > How specifically was
                                  > one to act if one were to claim this role as one's own?

                                  The SOM would go from village to village informing the poor and
                                  under-trodden by the temple elite that their time was coming. "Tubayhon
                                  l'miskene - congratulations you poor!" "Tubayhon l'abile - congratulations
                                  you mourners!" "Tubayhon abdai shlama - congratulations you makers of
                                  peace!" "Tubayhon laylen d'itirdepu mittol tsaddikutha d'dilhon malkutha
                                  d'shemaya - congratulations to you who are persecuted because of
                                  righteousness, yours is the Kingdom of Heaven!" The Son of Man told them
                                  that their time had come and they would be rewarded. Justice will prevail
                                  after all.

                                  What specific
                                  > action script would one who was Son of Man think he needed to follow?

                                  Daniel 7:13 חָזֵה הֲוֵית בְּחֶזְוֵי לֵֽילְיָא וַאֲרוּ עִם־עֲנָנֵי שְׁמַיָּא
                                  כְּבַר אֱנָשׁ אָתֵה הֲוָה וְעַד־עַתִּיק יֹֽומַיָּא מְטָה וּקְדָמֹוהִי
                                  הַקְרְבֽוּהִי׃

                                  I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with
                                  the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him
                                  near before him.

                                  But the SOM came at the END and Jesus was already there. This is why he
                                  spoke of the SOM in the 3rd person. He therefore had to die and as he told
                                  Pilatus, return on the clouds of Heaven when he would judge those who would
                                  enter his malkutha d'alaha.

                                  Regards,

                                  Jack

                                  Jack Kilmon
                                  San Antonio, TX

                                  >
                                • jgibson000@comcast.net
                                  ... I meant to write Danielic. ... Great. But how would one be this Son of Man -- who really is Israel -- on earth before the day of Judgment? ... That s it?
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Feb 3, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    On 2/3/2011 4:12 PM, Jack Kilmon wrote:
                                    >
                                    >> I am afraid that this does not answer my question. What would someone
                                    >> being the Davidic Son of man entail?
                                    >>
                                    > I don't think the Son of Man was Davidic.
                                    I meant to write Danielic.
                                    > unless I can be convinced Psalm
                                    > 144:3 (the only place it is mentioned outside of Daniel) proves differently.
                                    > The Son of Man would be a divine figure of Daniel 7 seated at the RIGHT HAND
                                    > of God (the right hand was where all of God's mojo comes from) and the
                                    > eschatological arbiter of judgment. I recall this is discussed in detail by
                                    > Darrell Brock (Blasphemy and Exultation in Judaism.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    Great. But how would one be this Son of Man -- who really is Israel --
                                    on earth before the day of Judgment?

                                    >> How would this identity manifest
                                    >> itself in the villages and by ways of Palestine.
                                    >>
                                    > The ordinary am ha-aretz were disenfranchised. They lived poorly, dressed
                                    > poorly and were highly taxed. They were the last at the temple, lucky if
                                    > they could afford a sacrificial dove. If they were infirm or maimed they
                                    > could not even approach the temple precinct.The Son of Man could only give
                                    > them hope and reassurance that in the Malkutha d'alaha it was they who would
                                    > be first in line.
                                    >
                                    That's it? That's how is to be Israel/the saints of the most high/the
                                    vindicated one -- by promising pie in the sky to the downtrodden?
                                    >
                                    >> How specifically was
                                    >> one to act if one were to claim this role as one's own?
                                    >>
                                    > The SOM would go from village to village informing the poor and
                                    > under-trodden by the temple elite that their time was coming. "Tubayhon
                                    > l'miskene - congratulations you poor!" "Tubayhon l'abile - congratulations
                                    > you mourners!" "Tubayhon abdai shlama - congratulations you makers of
                                    > peace!" "Tubayhon laylen d'itirdepu mittol tsaddikutha d'dilhon malkutha
                                    > d'shemaya - congratulations to you who are persecuted because of
                                    > righteousness, yours is the Kingdom of Heaven!" The Son of Man told them
                                    > that their time had come and they would be rewarded. Justice will prevail
                                    > after all.
                                    >
                                    Did he never attempt to institute this justice in the now? Did he never
                                    call the leaders of Israel to a new path?
                                    > What specific
                                    >
                                    >> action script would one who was Son of Man think he needed to follow?
                                    >>
                                    > Daniel 7:13 חָזֵה הֲוֵית בְּחֶזְוֵי לֵֽילְיָא וַאֲרוּ עִם־עֲנָנֵי שְׁמַיָּא
                                    > כְּבַר אֱנָשׁ אָתֵה הֲוָה וְעַד־עַתִּיק יֹֽומַיָּא מְטָה וּקְדָמֹוהִי
                                    > הַקְרְבֽוּהִי׃
                                    >
                                    > I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with
                                    > the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him
                                    > near before him.
                                    >

                                    Yes, he comes /to/ the Ancient of days, not to earth.
                                    > But the SOM came at the END and Jesus was already there. This is why he
                                    > spoke of the SOM in the 3rd person. He therefore had to die and as he told
                                    > Pilatus, return on the clouds of Heaven when he would judge those who would
                                    > enter his malkutha d'alaha.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    Where is the mention of the SoM /returning/ on the clouds? And isn't
                                    the role of judge a role also that the both Israel and its Messiah has?

                                    Jeffrey

                                    --
                                    Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                                    1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                                    Chicago, Illinois
                                    e-mail jgibson000@...



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Jack Kilmon
                                    Sorry about the delay in response. Real life called. ... From: Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 4:29 PM To:
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Feb 4, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Sorry about the delay in response. Real life called.

                                      --------------------------------------------------
                                      From: <jgibson000@...>
                                      Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 4:29 PM
                                      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] The Targums and the "Son of Man" title

                                      > On 2/3/2011 4:12 PM, Jack Kilmon wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >>> I am afraid that this does not answer my question. What would someone
                                      >>> being the Davidic Son of man entail?
                                      >>>
                                      >> I don't think the Son of Man was Davidic.


                                      > I meant to write Danielic.

                                      >> unless I can be convinced Psalm
                                      >> 144:3 (the only place it is mentioned outside of Daniel) proves
                                      >> differently.
                                      >> The Son of Man would be a divine figure of Daniel 7 seated at the RIGHT
                                      >> HAND
                                      >> of God (the right hand was where all of God's mojo comes from) and the
                                      >> eschatological arbiter of judgment. I recall this is discussed in detail
                                      >> by
                                      >> Darrell Brock (Blasphemy and Exultation in Judaism.
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      > Great. But how would one be this Son of Man -- who really is Israel --
                                      > on earth before the day of Judgment?

                                      We have to keep in mind that we have to look at this in the context of
                                      Jesus' sayings and try to evaluate what HE thought because there was no more
                                      consensus then among the "scholars" than now. Since the HJ quest has been
                                      primarily focused on his sayings corpus we have to look at what Jesus said
                                      about the SOM. As I said, he spoke about the SOM in the 3rd person since he
                                      could not come FROM heaven on a cloudburst until he went to heaven UNLESS
                                      the SOM was not coming but going (see below). We are also very familiar
                                      with "normative" Mosaic Judaism. If Jesus was outside of that box (my
                                      opinion) as an Enochian Jew, his view of the Bar Nasha would not necessarily
                                      be that which we extrapolate from the OT texts. Additionally, the view that
                                      he learned growing up and the view he held as a developing adult which he
                                      applied to himself may also not be the same. All we can do is look at the
                                      sayings material:

                                      Some are authentic to Jesus and others are not but the last saying in this
                                      list is what I find more significant in how Jesus saw himself as being the
                                      SOM and found itself in the Matthean tradition.

                                      Matthew 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds
                                      of the air [have] nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay [his]
                                      head.

                                      Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many
                                      things, and be rejected of the elders, and [of] the chief priests, and
                                      scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

                                      Matthew 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to
                                      forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy
                                      bed, and go unto thine house.

                                      Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into
                                      another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities
                                      of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

                                      Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold
                                      a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But
                                      wisdom is justified of her children.

                                      Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

                                      Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall
                                      be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not
                                      be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

                                      Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's
                                      belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart
                                      of the earth.

                                      Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed
                                      is the Son of man;

                                      Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall
                                      gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do
                                      iniquity;

                                      Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked
                                      his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

                                      Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with
                                      his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

                                      Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which
                                      shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his
                                      kingdom.

                                      Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them,
                                      saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from
                                      the dead.

                                      Matthew 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew
                                      him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also
                                      the Son of man suffer of them.

                                      Matthew 17:22 And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son
                                      of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:

                                      Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

                                      Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye
                                      which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in
                                      the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the
                                      twelve tribes of Israel.

                                      Matthew 20:18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be
                                      betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn
                                      him to death,

                                      Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to
                                      minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

                                      Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even
                                      unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

                                      Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
                                      and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son
                                      of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (this is
                                      right out of Enoch 7)

                                      Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of
                                      the Son of man be.

                                      Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so
                                      shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

                                      Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think
                                      not the Son of man cometh.

                                      Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour
                                      wherein the Son of man cometh.

                                      Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy
                                      angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

                                      Matthew 26:2 Ye know that after two days is [the feast of] the passover,
                                      and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

                                      Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto
                                      that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man
                                      if he had not been born.

                                      Matthew 26:45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep
                                      on now, and take [your] rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of
                                      Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

                                      Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto
                                      you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of
                                      power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

                                      λέγει αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς Σὺ εἶπας πλὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ἀπ᾽ ἄρτι ὄψεσθε τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ
                                      ἀνθρώπου καθήμενον ἐκ δεξιῶν τῆς δυνάμεως καὶ ἐρχόμενον ἐπὶ τῶν νεφελῶν τοῦ
                                      οὐρανοῦ

                                      ἔρχομαι means BOTH arriving or returning, coming and going. It could
                                      just as well mean that Jesus saw himself as GOING in a cloud to the throne
                                      to be seated at the right hand of God as in Daniel. The Aramaic Chayaya is
                                      also coming or going. This would accommodate him as the SOM on earth before
                                      the end times and an ethical rather than apocalytpic eschatology that sets
                                      up the apocalyptic in the future, the Parousia. Luke appears to confirm
                                      this at Acts 1:9 "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, HE
                                      WAS TAKEN UP; AND A CLOUD RECEIVED HIM out of their sight."


                                      >
                                      >>> How would this identity manifest
                                      >>> itself in the villages and by ways of Palestine.
                                      >>>
                                      >> The ordinary am ha-aretz were disenfranchised. They lived poorly,
                                      >> dressed
                                      >> poorly and were highly taxed. They were the last at the temple, lucky if
                                      >> they could afford a sacrificial dove. If they were infirm or maimed they
                                      >> could not even approach the temple precinct.The Son of Man could only
                                      >> give
                                      >> them hope and reassurance that in the Malkutha d'alaha it was they who
                                      >> would
                                      >> be first in line.
                                      >>
                                      > That's it? That's how is to be Israel/the saints of the most high/the
                                      > vindicated one -- by promising pie in the sky to the downtrodden?

                                      That "pie" was being FIRST in the Kingdom of Heaven for eternity.


                                      >>
                                      >>> How specifically was
                                      >>> one to act if one were to claim this role as one's own?
                                      >>>
                                      >> The SOM would go from village to village informing the poor and
                                      >> under-trodden by the temple elite that their time was coming. "Tubayhon
                                      >> l'miskene - congratulations you poor!" "Tubayhon l'abile -
                                      >> congratulations
                                      >> you mourners!" "Tubayhon abdai shlama - congratulations you makers of
                                      >> peace!" "Tubayhon laylen d'itirdepu mittol tsaddikutha d'dilhon malkutha
                                      >> d'shemaya - congratulations to you who are persecuted because of
                                      >> righteousness, yours is the Kingdom of Heaven!" The Son of Man told them
                                      >> that their time had come and they would be rewarded. Justice will prevail
                                      >> after all.
                                      >>
                                      > Did he never attempt to institute this justice in the now? Did he never
                                      > call the leaders of Israel to a new path?

                                      The "now" was not his schtick. His primary message and movement was based
                                      around the imminent malkutha d'alaha "Kingdom of God." It was right around
                                      the corner so suffer the "now" just a little longer and be righteous and
                                      "hayden chadau w'arwazu d'agrakon seggy b'shemaya hakanna ger radapu
                                      lanabiyye demin qadamaykon" Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is]
                                      your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before
                                      you.



                                      >> What specific
                                      >>
                                      >>> action script would one who was Son of Man think he needed to follow?
                                      >>>
                                      >> Daniel 7:13 חָזֵה הֲוֵית בְּחֶזְוֵי לֵֽילְיָא וַאֲרוּ עִם־עֲנָנֵי
                                      >> שְׁמַיָּא
                                      >> כְּבַר אֱנָשׁ אָתֵה הֲוָה וְעַד־עַתִּיק יֹֽומַיָּא מְטָה וּקְדָמֹוהִי
                                      >> הַקְרְבֽוּהִי׃
                                      >>
                                      >> I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came
                                      >> with
                                      >> the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought
                                      >> him
                                      >> near before him.
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      > Yes, he comes /to/ the Ancient of days, not to earth.

                                      Or he GOES to instead of COMES.

                                      >> But the SOM came at the END and Jesus was already there. This is why he
                                      >> spoke of the SOM in the 3rd person. He therefore had to die and as he
                                      >> told
                                      >> Pilatus, return on the clouds of Heaven when he would judge those who
                                      >> would
                                      >> enter his malkutha d'alaha.
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      > Where is the mention of the SoM /returning/ on the clouds? And isn't
                                      > the role of judge a role also that the both Israel and its Messiah has?

                                      Daniel 7:13 and paraphrased by Matthew 26:64 but as I said, I think Jesus as
                                      SOM was GOING in a cloud (Acts 1:9) and would RETURN in a cloud at the
                                      second coming.

                                      Jack

                                      Jack Kilmon
                                      San Antonio, TX

                                      >
                                      > Jeffrey
                                      >
                                      > --
                                      > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                                      > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                                      > Chicago, Illinois
                                      > e-mail jgibson000@...
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                      > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messagesYahoo! Groups
                                      > Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.